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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: 001uk on Tuesday 06 September 16 09:15 BST (UK)
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Hello!
Any ideas please as to the location of this
HILLSIDE COUNTRY VILLAGE STREET SCENE
c1918 view. In the background is a row of (possibly Georgian) two story houses with small front gardens. The end property has first floor windows with 12 panes.
On an incline to the left of the ink cross is a pair of two story houses having three 1st floor windows. The first house has a ground floor bay window. A similar property with the 'X' has a porch and seating which would suggest an inn.(At the top of the photo is written I am sleeping where X is)
There are two one story cottages either side. Nearest the camera is a large probably stone built house.
I think the central tree is a Horse Chestnut. There are no signs to be read anywhere.
I have an inkling that it's Cumberland/Westmorland.
With thanks~001uk
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I guess it's unreadable but is that a wooden sign to the right of the cross lower down? Or maybe a sign on the wall.
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I guess it's unreadable but is that a wooden sign to the right of the cross lower down? Or maybe a sign on the wall.
Well spotted! There IS a sign, on a slant, but it's too blurred to read. If the building was a pub it might read "GENTLEMEN"! I've looked over the photo with a strong mag. glass and can find no lettering at all. There's nothing on the side of the cart in the road.
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You could be right about it being 'Gentleman as there is another identical building to the left side of the 'main' building with what could be a notice by the top of the door
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You could be right about it being 'Gentleman as there is another identical building to the left side of the 'main' building with what could be a notice by the top of the door
Well spotted also! There is a sign there but you can hardly see it let alone any lettering. There is an unpainted facade in-between what could be an inn and this building.
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I did wonder if it could be a lavatorial sign!
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Lets not get bogged down with a discussion about toilets.
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Wild stab in the dark but if it is lettering it looks a short word like ICES.
As to the location though afraid have no idea :(
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You could be right about it being 'Gentleman as there is another identical building to the left side of the 'main' building with what could be a notice by the top of the door
There is a woman just outside the other (matching) building. :)
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Yes and she is patting down her skirts like she has just paid a visit - sorry to revert to lavatorialness ;D
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001uk - what leads you to suggest this may be Cumberland/Westmorland?
It's a nice scene, but there's nothing much there to help narrow down the location .... still, you never know, someone might recognise it. :)
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001uk - what leads you to suggest this may be Cumberland/Westmorland?
It's a nice scene, but there's nothing much there to help narrow down the location .... still, you never know, someone might recognise it. :)
I wondered that too. Judging by the architecture, it could easily be a Cumbrian location but I don't recognise it.
Mike
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I was thinking that the exposed stonework (on the end of the "pub") was a bit "orderly" for Cumberland. Apart from banks, it tends to be more random.
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Is it stonework, or slate cladding?
It looks to me like a fairly sizeable place - good wide road with pavement, and quite a lot of buildings to be seen, so probably not a tiny remote village. And the trees suggest a low(ish)land rather than upland location. Some parts of the Peak District or Wales might fit the bill - or Devon or Cornwall perhaps. (Not much to choose from, then ;D)
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And what is the horse and cart doing? Is he collecting firewood or what else are they doing?
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Is it stonework, or slate cladding?
It looks to me like a fairly sizeable place - good wide road with pavement, and quite a lot of buildings to be seen, so probably not a tiny remote village. And the trees suggest a low(ish)land rather than upland location. Some parts of the Peak District or Wales might fit the bill - or Devon or Cornwall perhaps. (Not much to choose from, then ;D)
Slate cladding. And yes, Peak District or Wales are eminently possible, but it seems the OP has reason to think it could be Cumbria. There are plenty of villages in Lakeland valleys that look like this.
Not much to go on, really.
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001uk - what leads you to suggest this may be Cumberland/Westmorland?
It's a nice scene, but there's nothing much there to help narrow down the location .... still, you never know, someone might recognise it. :)
My hunch isn't based on anything. I can't even recall where I got it from. It just looks as though it might be plus the vibes I'm getting from the photo, man.
Mike in Cumbria is also getting those vibes.....
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I think the central tree is a Horse Chestnut....
Not that it makes any difference, or helps in any way, but the tree is a sycamore.
Mike
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Can anybody work out what the large building is the other side of the pub.. It has lots of windows and a couple of doors. Could it be a hostel or something like that.
Pat
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Can anybody work out what the large building is the other side of the pub.. It has lots of windows and a couple of doors. Could it be a hostel or something like that.
A shop and a house, each with three first floor windows?
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Does the hand writing help in any way? Does it say 'Sam sleeping where x is'?
If so, do you know who Sam is, and whereabouts he was in 1918ish (do you have a reason to think that's the date?)
Not sure if this is any help, just another way of looking at it.
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When I first looked at this photo I thought "Derbyshire" but did not put this forward as it was only a hunch (it had the feel of a place I stayed in Derbyshire once). I agree it could be anywhere.
The building with the protruding porch may be some kind of lodgings as the person who wrote the card is staying there. If it was a public house you would generally expect to see a sign.
The twin low buildings on either side are odd because they both have (sadly unreadable) signs. Would they be public conveniences with windows that big? It does not look like a large enough village to have such substantial public amenities and why have then either side of a (possible) Pub or Inn?
The buildings beyond the "Ladies loos" could be shops or houses. Those beyond that again and close to the road appear to be houses.
The house nearest the camera has an arched doorway. Probably a country wide fashion at the time rather than a regionally identifiable feature.
It seems that the buildings which might be commercial, are recessed off the main road, possibly for "parking", loading and unloading of goods?
None of this helps identify the location though .... :-\
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Does the hand writing help in any way? Does it say 'Sam sleeping where x is'?
If so, do you know who Sam is, and whereabouts he was in 1918ish (do you have a reason to think that's the date?)
Not sure if this is any help, just another way of looking at it.
I am sleeping where X is. :)
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Does the hand writing help in any way? Does it say 'Sam sleeping where x is'?
If so, do you know who Sam is, and whereabouts he was in 1918ish (do you have a reason to think that's the date?)
Not sure if this is any help, just another way of looking at it.
I am sleeping where X is. :)
Curses!
And you don't know who 'I' is, of course?!
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Does the hand writing help in any way? Does it say 'Sam sleeping where x is'?
If so, do you know who Sam is, and whereabouts he was in 1918ish (do you have a reason to think that's the date?)
Not sure if this is any help, just another way of looking at it.
I am sleeping where X is. :)
Curses!
And you don't know who 'I' is, of course?!
We do not know the ID of the sleeper. I'm now inclined to think it's not an inn (with no sign visible) but possibly some kind of hostel.
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Several of the buildings have seats outside implying that whoever goes to this place might need a rest. ;) :)
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I have had a good look at this and here are a few thoughts, some may be feasible, some probably not ;D
Are the two ladies posing for this photo, they don't appear to be walking..
In that case, could one be 'I'
Is the one in dark clothes a companion or a nurse.
I agree with Ruskie, if this is a pub there would be a sign on the building or on the road side..
Could it be a guest house/ convalescent home or hostel..
The two small buildings unlikely to be toilets, they have seats outside and the windows are too
large, again I agree with Ruskie. They could be small cottages.
The sign doesn't appear to be 'gentlemen' I don't think there are enough letters.
I have tried to isolate the sign, but can't get it any clearer.
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Good points Trishanne. I wondered if one of those women could be a Nursing sister (Nun possibly?)
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I also thought that the lady on the left could be a nun.
Something about the door in the house in the foreground on the right ... something about the shape of the arch and the surrounding plaster being plain rather than ornate, no rain shelter, no wooden surround ... I don't know, it reminds me of photos of old houses in France or Italy. It doesn't look English.
I might be talking nonsense, though, as I've never been to either of those countries!
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I also thought that the lady on the left could be a nun.
Something about the door in the house in the foreground on the right ... something about the shape of the arch and the surrounding plaster being plain rather than ornate, no rain shelter, no wooden surround ... I don't know, it reminds me of photos of old houses in France or Italy. It doesn't look English.
I might be talking nonsense, though, as I've never been to either of those countries!
No - it's a British scene for lots of reasons, but principally the lack of shutters on the windows.
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The woman on the left looks like she is walking. Her right leg (as we look at it) appears to be slightly lifted and her body is slightly angled. They have either paused for a second or are tasking a very leisurely stroll hence little or no visible movement. :)
I think the girl/woman on the left is just wearing dark clothes. She doesn't appear to be wearing a head covering if that was part of the dress of someone in a religious order. I think she is a youngish girl with her hair down and tied back from her face.
Just my thoughts. :)
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Just my thoughts. :)
Mine too.
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Very similar buildings and aspect in Matlock Bath area - but can't yet find a match to the photo
http://www.peakdistrictinformation.com/images/matlockbath.jpg
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Gentlemen is often shortened to gents, there are other words, depending where you are,;
http://www.omniglot.com/language/signs/toilets.htm
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I also thought that the lady on the left could be a nun.
I thought that as well. Some sisters who work in Hospitals and schools etc do wear a different sort of uniform than the traditional nuns uniform.
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The sign which is most visible is not on the wall but on a separate post as though a sign for a place rather than a "Gents"
Would they have outside signs on a "living quarters" such as a Hostel, Hotel etc ???
Also, would the Ladies & Gents be separate rather than "2 entrances" side-by-side?
My thoughts.
Annie
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I also thought that the lady on the left could be a nun.
I thought that as well. Some sisters who work in Hospitals and schools etc do wear a different sort of uniform than the traditional nuns uniform.
So you are agreeing with yourself SB coz it's you who originally suggested it. ;D
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The sign which is most visible is not on the wall but on a separate post as though a sign for a place rather than a "Gents"
Would they have outside signs on a "living quarters" such as a Hostel, Hotel etc ???
Also, would the Ladies & Gents be separate rather than "2 entrances" side-by-side?
My thoughts.
Annie
I can't see a post Annie. I thought the sign looked like it was attached to the wall. I'm zooming in to the image on my iPad, so may have missed some detail.
Yes, you would expect male and female toilets to be side by side - presumably it's more cost effective plumbing wise.
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I have had a good look at this and here are a few thoughts, some may be feasible, some probably not ;D
Are the two ladies posing for this photo, they don't appear to be walking..
In that case, could one be 'I'
Is the one in dark clothes a companion or a nurse.
I agree with Ruskie, if this is a pub there would be a sign on the building or on the road side..
Could it be a guest house/ convalescent home or hostel..
The two small buildings unlikely to be toilets, they have seats outside and the windows are too
large, again I agree with Ruskie. They could be small cottages.
The sign doesn't appear to be 'gentlemen' I don't think there are enough letters.
I have tried to isolate the sign, but can't get it any clearer.
It seems as though it was Trishanne who first made the suggestion that one of the women was a nurse?
and I agreed with her proposition. That is called debate and discussion.
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The sign is next to a doorway.
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You suggested "Nun" SB. ::)
Not that any of this helps find the location. ::)
I still can't see a post holding up the sign I'm afraid. I think Matthew's Matlock Bath suggestion is a possibility, but there must be many other similar looking places. :-\
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No post, it is on the wall, same also for the "ladies".
I dont think that the toilets being at opposit ends of the building that unusual, especially if it is some form of hostelry, although it looks more like public toilets.
If it is slate hanging on the end wall that would point to a exposed or coastal area.
Another couple of "oddities" are the seats outside of the buildings and the stepped, above ground footing on the building in front on the right.
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It has already been noted that surely the size of the windows is too big for these buildings to be Public Toilets? :-\
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I have had a good look at this and here are a few thoughts, some may be feasible, some probably not ;D
Are the two ladies posing for this photo, they don't appear to be walking..
In that case, could one be 'I'
Is the one in dark clothes a companion or a nurse.
I agree with Ruskie, if this is a pub there would be a sign on the building or on the road side..
Could it be a guest house/ convalescent home or hostel..
The two small buildings unlikely to be toilets, they have seats outside and the windows are too
large, again I agree with Ruskie. They could be small cottages.
The sign doesn't appear to be 'gentlemen' I don't think there are enough letters.
I have tried to isolate the sign, but can't get it any clearer.
Hello all,
Thank you Trishanne for your thoughts which I DO find feasible. I've scanned the sign (at 12800 dpi) but it doesn't appear any better than your scan. I've also added a scan of the two ladies.
Now I've looked closer I think you are correct with the ID that one is a nurse (....and possibly a nun - thanks to ScouseBoy and Ruskie). This would indeed make the "inn" a hostel/convalescent home (hence outside seating?). Have added a scan of these ladies. The young woman on the left does appear to be wearing a head covering whilst the right hand lady does look as though she might be less abled (as Ruskie suggested). She is not standing straight and her left shoe could be of the raised kind.
Thanks to everyone for their help/interest.I think we're honing in!
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I see no nuns. Just two women walking arm in arm - the one on the right might be carrying a shopping basket in her free hand, but that might be just an illusion or a photographic artefact.
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You forgot the second scan 001uk. :)
The closeup of the sign - I can now see that some people think it looks like a post, but I think this is the doorway with shading.
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Some orders of nuns work in the community as teachers or as nurses. Their "dress code" is different from those who may live in something of a "closed" religious community.
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You forgot the second scan 001uk. :)
I didn't forget!! I can't upload it!
If anyone knows why I receive the message
" An Error Has Occurred!Sorry! There is already an attachment with the same filename as the one you tried to upload. Please rename the file and try again."
when I try to upload an image which does NOT already have an attachment of the same file name I'd love to know!! I then rename the file and the page freezes.
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I see no nuns. Just two women walking arm in arm - the one on the right might be carrying a shopping basket in her free hand, but that might be just an illusion or a photographic artefact.
I'm pretty sure the lady on the left IS a nun. As soon as I can get the image loaded you may agree!
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The two ladies
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I see no nuns. Just two women walking arm in arm - the one on the right might be carrying a shopping basket in her free hand, but that might be just an illusion or a photographic artefact.
Like Mike I see two ladies out for a stroll arm in arm. One is wearing dark clothes. Nothing more than that.
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No offence, but I think people are reading too much into a simple street scene. You could interpret this in many different ways.
For instance, the woman on the right is walking her blind sister down the street. The blind sister on the left has long dark hair. The sighted sister on the right is mid-stride - she doesn't have an orthopaedic shoe.
And if those are public toilets, why is the man on the left urinating in a gateway?
I'm not saying these interpretations are correct, of course, just that there are many ways of interpreting a scene.
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Resolution is not good but I've tried to bring up the sign. I think it might start with an F or T. Also it looks like a 4 letter word.
There's a sign behind the two ladies but the res is even poorer.
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They look like they are walking.
Agree with Mike that the woman on the right appears to be carrying something.
I don't think she appears to need help to walk - I think the two are just arm in arm.
The girl on the left appears to have long hair which is parted on her left side and the hair is falling down her back. This may mean that she was younger and not of the age to wear her hair "up".
I agree with Mike again when he says that this can be interpreted in any number of ways, and none of it helps determine the location. It was always going to be a tricky one.
I don't suppose you have any more photos you would like us to have a shot at identifying 001uk?
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Agreed! Not all the points are going to help with pin pointing the location. However, I still think the "Nun" element might just have something to do with it. We'll see.
YES! I have many more photos but not quite the time to list! I'll try ASAP.
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Yes. I think at least THREE of us agree with the nursing sister suggestion. I will study my map now and perhaps go to the Library.
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But, it's not a habit - she has long dark hair when enlarged.
Added - at least three of us agree with that!
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I agree with the sign being 4 letters (I thought before it looked like ICES) the second letter looks like a C.
What kind of useful information would be on signs can we think apart from place names and lavatorials?
Nuns has four letters! but I don't see any nuns myself.
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Yes. I think at least THREE of us agree with the nursing sister suggestion. I will study my map now and perhaps go to the Library.
Good luck with that. How will the map help?
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I see that a few people have suggested Cumbria/Lakeland. My first reaction on seeing the picture was that it reminded me of somewhere in the Lake District. We don't know what might be on the other side of the street but the fact so many buildings have seats outside suggests that there is probably a good vista - a lake perhaps, or a panoramic view.
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Could it be the Priory Hotel at Cartmel
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Could it be the Priory Hotel at Cartmel
Have you checked what the Priory Hotel in Cartmel looks like?
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Yes, I have
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Could it be the Priory Hotel at Cartmel
Err .... clearly not.
Have you even looked at an image of the Priory Hotel before making that suggestion?
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Are you sure you're not confusing it with the Priory Hotel in Cape Town? Or Libya?
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Could it be the Priory Hotel at Cartmel
Have you checked what the Priory Hotel in Cartmel looks like?
Yes, I have
Perhaps then you'd give a link to an image which leads you to think it's the Priory Hotel? :)
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Could it be the Priory Hotel at Cartmel
How on earth do you get that SB, from the images I've found it's nothing like it? Can you post the one you've found please, as I'm obviously looking at a different place.
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Gee Scouseboy, with all due respect you do talk a lot of rubbish sometimes. ;D
The Priory hotel at Cartmel bears NO resemblance to any of the buildings in the OPs photo.
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I think nuns wore ankle length habits until comparatively recent times.
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Are you sure you're not confusing it with the Priory Hotel in Cape Town? Or Libya?
Or Oban .... ::)
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I think nuns wore ankle length habits until comparatively recent times.
Yes, pre Vatican II, even for an order working in the community or a hospital, relatively modern style dress such as in the photo would have been unusual for a nun. I don't think it's a nun in the photo.
On the 'toilets' issue, perhaps it was different in the UK, but until the last 70 years or so in Ireland, while there would have been public signs for 'gentlemen's' conveniences attached to pubs, 'ladies' were above such bodily functions and horror of horrors would not be seen in a public house anyway.
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Who would want to sit on a bench outside of a toilet, unsavoury?
Also, opposite the horse and cart, there appears to be a gentleman (the cart driver?) relieving himself in public and on camera. Why would he do that if there were public toilets nearby?
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The cart driver sems to be behind the horse and cart. The person standing with his back to the camera could be doing all sorts off things, I doubt though that he is urinating on the footpath.
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Sorry if this has already been suggested (too many messages to read them all!) but I don't think that is a sign on a post. I think it is a sign on the house/property.
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For anyone with old photos but lacking location you could try the Francis Frith site, they have a lot post card style photos of places from yesteryear. You may find photos of buildings that no longer exist.
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Also, opposite the horse and cart, there appears to be a gentleman (the cart driver?) relieving himself in public and on camera. Why would he do that if there were public toilets nearby?
He wouldn't know there was a camera behind him and that's just something men do - public lavatorials to hand or not ::)
Good idea re Francis Frith those old photos are a wonderful record.
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A couple of thoughts about some of what's been suggested:
First, on the public conveniences/pub toilets question. The arrangement of the "ladies" and "gents" doorways in relation to the main building isn't symmetrical. There's another one-storey property between the far one and the "pub" (or whatever it is), which isn't whitewashed. I think it's just coincidence that those two have both been whitewashed and also have some kind of sign outside. The intervening unwhitewashed cottage (?) may or may not be part of the "pub".
Second, as has already been pointed out, I very much doubt the lady is a nun. I grew up near a convent in the 1960s, and the nuns then wore ankle-length habits, and their wimples covered their hair completely. I know orders may differ, but I don't think the style that is being inferred here would have been seen until 1970 or later.
For what it's worth, Matlock Bath occurred to me too, but I haven't found anything to match.
Arthur
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I must be missing something folks. Where are the indications that there are Ladies & Gents toilets in that photograph?
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Might be my imagination but can anyone see a building (Church or something?) in the background? Immediately above the 2nd chimney pot down from the X.
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Just wondering whether the fact there are so many benches outside the houses could mean that they face a good view, perhaps looking out over a valley?
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The main building looks to me far more like a pub than any other kind of residential accommodation - maybe the sign had broken? On that theme too, do pub porches/doorways have any particular regional style? There's a similar one with a door in the side rather than going straight in at the Blue Bell Inn, Tissington (Derbyshire), though the door is in the opposite side.
I'm wondering too, as I often do, about which direction we're looking in. The seats might, as has been suggested, be positioned for looking at a view, but might they also be facing roughly south? If so, then the pub doorway would be facing east, away from the prevailing winds.
There's not much shadow to go on, apart from one across the road just beyond the horse. Is that from the tree on the left of the road, or am I reading too much into it?
There's quite strong shading on the seat front right, which might suggest we're looking a bit southward. How about the road running more or less NE-SW, and the pub facing SE?
Arthur
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I've just caught up with, and read, this whole thread and I think you're all wonderful and you do make me laugh :)
I think the 'urinating' man is actually talking to someone who is beyond the foliage in front of him standing in the doorway of the ? third cottage further along on the right. There is a white splodge there on the photo which I believe is a person's face. If it was a more recent photo I'd say he was an Amazon delivery man with a package he'd just brought along in his cart.
But no better idea about where it is. Sorry :(
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I think you are right about the face. There are also two figures just past him walking along the road, they look like young children by their size, another reason I don't think he is doing anything he shouldn't be doing!
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Just to be clear - the urinating man was a tongue in cheek comment, as was the blind sister.
There was a whole story building up around a mythical community of nuns, and I just wanted to point out that other interpretations were available.
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Just to be clear - the urinating man was a tongue in cheek comment, as was the blind sister.
There was a whole story building up around a mythical community of nuns, and I just wanted to point out that other interpretations were available.
Oh sorry, yes Mike, I did realise. That's why I put my adjective about him in quotes.
I was also joking about the Amazon delivery. ;)
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I didn't think this posting would attract SO much "interest"! At the time of writing 84 / 1,460 Replies / Views from Lavatories to Libya and Amazon to Have a pee.
Interesting post by dublin1850, for which I thank you. I'm wondering now if I should move my 'hunch' to Ireland?
Had yet another close look - amazing just how much you can see upon return looks - not that it's going to help locate it but the bay window property at the end of the rank could be a shop, there's a white chicken by the single female and a darker one by the porch (!) , and it could well be a Church where Rhododendron has mentioned (thank you). It's different from the chimney stacks.