RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Definos on Friday 09 September 16 09:54 BST (UK)
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I've hit a brick wall and I am not sure where to go now. Hopefully someone may be related to William Johnson (aka Billy) and may be able to help me.
All I can find for William Johnson is that he was co-respondent in my grandmothers divorce.
HYDE vs HYDE DECREE NISI - DESERTION The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842-1954), Tuesday 29 October 1935, page 8
The papers were handed to him at 'Silverspurs' 61 Hampstead Road, Auburn (or Silverwater) NSW. At that time there are Census records showing one Malcolm Johnson and his wife Margaret Agnes were living at that address. Later a son Darrell John Johnson also resided there.
He moved to another address sometime after he was given the divorce papers and that address was 12 Richards Road, Fairfield via Bossley Park NSW.
My guess is that he was born in the early 1900 or late 1800's. The time period I am talking about would be from 1930. That is all I know.
If anyone can help I would be very grateful.
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Welcome to RootsChat
I wonder if your enquiry would be better if it were moved to the Australia Board. I will ask a Global Moderator to organise this.
In the meantime, do you have copy of the divorce papers that are available from the NSW State Records Office?
I am sure that there's no census records for NSW for the 1930s, but rather there are electoral rolls. These do not actually show how anyone is related to anyone else, so I am not sure why you have given names for people that may well still be alive.
EDIT TO NOTE that possible death registrations at the NSW BDM online index are in later posts.
JM (NSW centric).
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Possible death for Malcolm JOHNSON in 1943
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17842451 30 March 1943 Sydney Morning Herald.
JM
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Possible death registration in 1968 at NSW BDM online Index
JOHNSON Darrell John
# 14235/1968
Possible death registration in 1943 NSW BDM
JOHNSON Malcolm
# 923/1943
Possible death registration in 1964 NSW BDM
JOHNSON Margaret Agnes
# 38266/1964
JM
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Possible death registration in 1968 at NSW BDM online Index
JOHNSON Darrell John
# 14235/1968
Possible death registration in 1943 NSW BDM
JOHNSON Malcolm
# 923/1943
Possible death registration in 1964 NSW BDM
JOHNSON Margaret Agnes
# 38266/1964
JM
They are all at Rookwood Catholic.
The death notice of Malcolm shows that William wasn't his son.
Malcolm born in Scone and has 5 siblings, but none William.
Can't see a birth of a William to the brother's of Malcolm.
J.
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A warm welcome to rootschat Definos :)
Here is death notice for Darrell John Johnson (Bill) in 1968 - note same address.
Ros
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Here is the 1935 Hyde v Hyde divorce notice which you mentioned
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17237032
I haven't found a divorce file for this couple on NSW state records https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/
(but it may be because of their recent enhancements ::) ). However I suspect you have the divorce records as you know where he was handed the papers. But if you don't have them and someone can find an index entry then I am happy to photograph them next time I am there if you wish.
Ros
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Here is probate packet for Darrell John JOHNSON
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/darrell-john-johnson-date-death-29021968-granted-26061968
I can photograph this if you wish
cheers,
Ros
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Wow! Please first let me thank you all so much for your kind assistance and responses.
This is my first post and I have quite a few dead ends that I have been searching for many years now and to no avail so your help and any comments are so welcomed! Believe me!
First ‘Thank you MAJA‘ – for moving onto the correct Australian forum avenue. Also I do believe the information was taken from the Electoral Rolls. I believed also that Malcolm and Margaret were married and had a son Darrell John Johnson and were all now deceased. From the information I found which is in line with yourself and JAMJAR (Thank you Jamjar!) and the possible family link in Scone NSW.
ROSBALL – You have found more information and I would love to see the Probate documents for Darrell John Johnson. However the most exciting thing for me is that you have enclosed in brackets the name ‘Bill’ when you mentioned the Death Notice for Darrell John Johnson. So yes please Ros I would love you to photograph the Probate Packet and also can you tell me where you found Darrell John Johnsons Death Notice? How exciting! I think you have found him for me! I will see if I can find a birth date for him. The letters we have are from Billy Johnson. The only documents that stated William Johnson were on the Divorce papers.
(I have a huge smile on my face – thank you!!)
Again, thank you all so much! I am so grateful for your help!
Karen
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Hi Karen,
Glad to be of help :) I will photograph the probate file for you,
The death notice is from Sydney Morning Herald 1 March 1968 - it is on the Ryerson Index
http://ryersonindex.org/search.php
Ros
adding : it says his age is 54 so he was born about 1914
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A very sad incident for "Bill" and his wife. He was a hairdresser on electoral rolls and children's name match the death notice.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18176497
Ros
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Qld BDM https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/querySubmit.m?ReportName=BirthSearch
1912 #C14895 Darrel John Johnson; Father-Malcolm; Mother-Margaret O'Donnell
http://www.ancestry.com.au/genealogy/records/darrell-john-johnson_76876713
Darrell John Johnson-Born in Silverspur, Queensland, Australia on 9 Apr 1912 to Malcolm Johnson and Margaret Jane O Donnell. He passed away on 29 Feb 1968 in Auburn, New South Wales, Australia.
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Here is death notice for Margaret Agnes JOHNSON - it only mentions Darrell as a child.
Ros
Well-found CupofLife :)
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ROSBALL > Thanks again Ros! Darrell must be the man I am looking for! I can't believe you managed to find him so quickly! Thank you so much. I am really a beginner with tracing the family tree and did not know anything about the Ryerson Index. Would you be able to do me another great favour and if there is a Probate Packet for Malcolm Johnson (same address DOB 1883 in Scone NSW and DOD 27 March 1943 Auburn) or his wife that would be wonderful. Thank you so much again! I appreciate it greatly!
Karen
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No problem Karen :)
Here is probate for Margaret Agnes JOHNSON https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/margaret-jane-or-agnes-johnson-date-death-21081964-granted-19101964
I can't see one for Malcolm
Ros
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Oh my goodness! How sad indeed Ros. It is hard to imagine how tough the times were. I wonder what happened to Dorothy after all this and her daughters (two it seems from Darrell's notice of death)
You are putting so many pieces to this jigsaw puzzle together for me. I am forever grateful. I have spent ages trying to track down the little I had but I could never prove what I found except that Johnsons lived at Hampstead Road.
I had to run in and wake my husband up late last night to tell him the news.
Thanks so much for helping! (Did I mention I have a few others that I have little information and hit a brick wall!) Everyone has been so helpful!
Have a great day Ros!
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Darrell John Johnson who died 29 February 1968 aged 54 is buried with Elizabeth C O'Donnell who died 11 January 1947 aged 88. The headstone simply says ' Our Mother'.
Catholic Mortuary 2 & 3 Section 15 Row 8 Grave 679
Malcolm Johnson 27 March 1943 aged 60
Margaret Johnson 21 August 1964 aged 73
Catholic Mortuary 2 & 3 Section 15 Row 34 Grave 3121
Headstone inscription: A husband and father
Jamjar
Added: Darrell's Marriage:
9109/1941 Darrell John Johnson to Dorothy May Doolan AUBURN
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Wife was put on a good behaviour bond http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18187405
I can't see a death for her or a probate or divorce for her. She is probably still living.
Ros
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Wife was put on a good behaviour bond http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18187405
I can't see a death for her or a probate or divorce for her. She is probably still living.
Ros
Not if she was born around the same time as Darrell, but she could have been much younger I suppose.
Jamjar
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Thank you so much again Ros.
I've been busy just trying to put together the links and information that you (all) have given me.
So many questions but I wonder why I have two 'middle' names for Darrells mother? I wonder if Darrell's wife stayed at the address at Hampstead Road after Darrell died? I wonder if she remarried after Darrell died and that is why there is no record of her death? You see I believe Darrell (Bill) is probably my grandfather. (Another sad untold story but not quite as shocking I guess as that of Darrell's wife). Sad also as my grandmother lived in Auburn when Darrell died. I wonder if she knew he was there? She would never speak of my mothers father so it must have been hurtful and also opened a huge can of worms.
I am going to take Ancestory's DNA test so if the results find I am linked to the tree/s that you found on Ancestory, I will know quite probably.
I really am so grateful for all the information you have found and provided.
Thanks so much and for looking into photographing the probate packages for me too.
Karen :)
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Wife was put on a good behaviour bond http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18187405
I can't see a death for her or a probate or divorce for her. She is probably still living.
Ros
Darrell's wife aged 31 in that article. 1950 - 31 = born about 1919.
JM
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Thank you MaJm too for you extra information.
I am trying to put it all together now but as good and sad as the information is it is so very exciting to find all this.
:)
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There appears to be a divorce file but the link is not working ::)
http://search.records.nsw.gov.au/search?page=11761&size=30&q=&location=Western%20Sydney%20Records%20Centre,%20Kingswood
https://s15.postimg.org/idwvrkaln/image.jpg
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Hi and a big thank you too to Cup of Life!
I am not sure how I missed thanking you for information too and yes, it does look like Dorothy and Darrell were divorced! More to investigate!
Wow! I am overwhelmed by all the help I am receiving. It means so much! Thank you!
Karen ;D
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How exciting Karen to find your possible grandfather :)
Good find CupOfLife :)
Ros
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Pleasure to help :) All part of Rootschat team effort ;)
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Death notice for Dorothy
http://tributes.smh.com.au/obituaries/smh-au/obituary.aspx?pid=164118427
https://www.myheritage.com/names/dorothy_doolan
Dorothy May Fitton (born Doolan), 1919 - 2013
Dorothy May Fitton (born Doolan) was born on month day 1919, at birth place, to John Joseph Doolan and Lillian Doolan (born Birks).
John was born in 1890, in Central Cumberland.
Lillian was born in 1897, in Leichhardt NSW.
Dorothy had 3 siblings: Eileen Lillian Wilson (born Doolan) and 2 other siblings.
Dorothy married Stan Fitton.
Dorothy married Darrell John Johnson in 1941, at age 21 at marriage place.
Darrell was born on April 9 1912, in Silverspur Qld..
They had 2 children.
They divorced.
Dorothy passed away on month day 2013, at age 93 at death place.
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WOW!!!!!!! Thank you all so much! Really, with all my heart, thank you!
My mum passed away after a terrible 5 year battle with cancer - doctors believe she carried a BRCA gene due to the type of cancers she had.
5 years ago I was diagnosed with two cancers and tested and found to have the BRCA2 gene and that is why I am also keen to find out more about my family tree now. I actually started searching prior to being diagnosed. It had to be put on hold. It has returned a second time and I just have such a strong desire to find out as much as I can so that someone else can carry on the family tree.
You have all been amazingly helpful! I can't thank you enough!
Karen
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That is so sad Karen. We are all pleased to help.
Brilliant find Cuppa :) Can you see a number or year on the divorce file? I am sure Karen would like that photographed too.
Ros
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You've read my mind Ros! I would love it!
Can't believe how wonderfully helpful you all are!
I keep getting tears in my eyes! :'(
What a great bunch of people! Clever ones at that!
To find my grandfather, my mum's father is amazing! Well I didn't but you wonderful people did!
Coincidentally my husband just collected my DNA testing kit from the post office! ;D
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32423/1897 Lilian Birks father Thomas and mother Lydia A LEICHHARDT
This is the Central Cumberland birth:
10293/1890 John Doolan parents John W and Ann CENTRAL CUMBERLAND
Marriage
5813/1915 Jack Doolan to Lillian Birks GRANVILLE
Death
There is only one death I can see with the correct parents. Note that nowhere is he named John Joseph.
17771/1922 John Doolan father John and mother Ann PENRITH
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This is the Elizabeth O'Donnell who died in 1947 and is buried with Darrell.
Death
2509/1947 Eliza Catherine O'DONNELL parents Charles and Margaret AUBURN
Possible birth of Margaret Johnson (nee O'Donnell)
16586/1891 Margaret O'Donnell parents Phillip and Eliza C HILLGROVE
Possible death for Phillip O'Donnell:
3295/1912 Phillip O'DONNELL parents Martin and Margaret ST LEONARDS
Marriage of Phillip and Eliza:
5477/1887 Phillip O'Donnell to Eliza C Williams INVERELL
Siblings of Margaret:
17759/1893 John F O'Donnell INVERELL
24844/1889 Philip O'Donnell INVERELL
Likely deaths of siblings:
29399/1948 John Francis O'Donnell parents Phillip and Eliza CASINO
9946/1963 Phillip O'DONNELL parents Phillip and Elizabeth TAMWORTH
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Thank you Jamjar! Excellent! ;D
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If there is anymore information on the 'Johnson' side of the family I would be greatful. That is the side I am related to (I believe) along with the O Donnell - thank you so much!
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I have reported the failure to locate the JOHNSON divorce as a failure with their new system. (well they did ask ;D )
And I added the failure to find the HYDE divorce as another test case.
Hopefully they will get back to me with the item number for Darrell's divorce so I can order it and photograph it. Perhaps they will also fix the problem. It's very frustrating as I searched in various ways without any success.
Just shout if you see any other relevant files Karen.
Ros
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Thank you Ros!
(I have this document - I purchased it from the State Record Office in Western Sydney)
This is the original information for Hyde vs Hyde
Item number or control symbol: 56/1935
Title: Divorce papers John Henry Hyde - Eileen May Hyde, William Johnson
Start date: 10 Jan 1935
End date: 17 Jul 1936
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Record series containing this item: 13495 Divorce and matrimonial cause case papers 20 Aug 1873 ~ 11 Dec 1978
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Access directions: 424 Effect: Open; Duration: N/A
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Item control status: Item list available electronically for divorces commenced in 1921 to July 1963 and 1970. Please contact reading rooms for assistance for other time periods.
I cannot find anything about Johnson vs Johnson although I noted something about the Supreme Court of NSW (Family Court ...or something like that?)
Karen :D
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If there is anymore information on the 'Johnson' side of the family I would be greatful. That is the side I am related to (I believe) along with the O Donnell - thank you so much!
Karen now that you have the basic information you may like do find Malcolm's side yourself. It can be quite rewarding.
All the information I have provided thus far is found by searching NSWBDM. You will find Malcolm and his family plus marriages deaths, etc.
https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/lifelink/familyhistory/search?0
Jamjar
Added: I shall play devils advocate here and ask if anyone has considered whether Darrell may not be William and that there is a possibility that William was a relative staying with Malcolm and Margaret at the time of his indiscretion.
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Thanks Jamjar.
I have been trying to research my family tree since 2011 but have had to stop and start for reasons mentioned.
Yes, I originally thought that William was possibly staying at 61 Hampstead Road and have searched high and low and that is why, when I heard about Rootschat I came on here to try my luck ...and I have to admit you have been all more than generous.
Ros posted the death notice for Darrell John Johnson (Bill). Especially as it stated the nick-name 'Bill' I am quite certain it must be him - naturally I have to prove it.
I have letters to my grandmother from Billy Johnson and a letter that she mentions Bill Johnson being the father of her baby. I am thinking the divorce proceedings and papers were generated from my grandmothers then husband John Hyde (a long story) and this is where Billy or Bill became William.
While all the information has been coming in I have been entering onto Ancestory.com although I am not a paid up member. I was in 2011 and 2012 but unfortunately couldn't use it as much as I would have liked due to medical problems. However, it was back then that I contacted another person on Ancestory about a missing link she had and, who I thought was probably my mother, and she found the notice in the newspaper for the divorce of Hyde vs Hyde and the Co-respondent being William Johnson. As I said that was another long story.
The only thing I wanted to know after finding three letters from Billy Johnson in my grand/mothers papers was 'who is Billy Johnson' and why would my grandmother have kept these letters if they had no meaning.
I do enjoy tracing my family tree and why I am so overwhelmed with all the information you have managed to find for me and so quickly too. I am a novice and keep hitting brick walls no matter how hard I try not to.
I am uploading the information you have all contributed into Ancestory. Will try and seek more information on the Johnson side of the family.
Thanks so much again! :)
Karen
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Yes, it's amazing what gets uncovered when we start digging. I do wonder why Darrell called himself Bill as he doesn't appear to have a middle name.
Be sure to put Scone into search on BDM.
If you get stuck let me know and I can fill gaps for you.
I did all my family trees without Ancestry. It is overrated and a lot of what is on there is incorrect. RC is the place to get correct information and it's FREE. ;D
Jamjar.
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Here is an obit to Susan JOHNSON, wife of Edward JOHNSON in 1916 (Malcolm's parents)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article156928355
Susan JOHNSON, 4800/1916, father Peter, mother Barbara, Scone
Edward Johnson suffered badly after his loss http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article156931810
Edward JOHNSON probate packet https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/edward-johnson-date-death-28081918-granted-09121918 This death corresponds to a deceased estate for Edward JOHNSON of Moonan Brook who died 28/8/1918 and granted 18/2/1919
(have added probate to my list :) )
NSW BDM
1918 Edward JOHNSON 13533/1918 father Edward, mother Susan at Ryde (wonder if it is a son?)
Obit to Ed JOHNSON http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article156906732 confirms we have the right one
Ros
(Yes Jamjar you could be right - we're exploring one possibility for the moment :) )
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Yes Jamjar you could be right - we're exploring one possibility for the moment :) )
Well good on you, Ros, I'll leave you to it. :D
J.
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Thank you Ros and Jamjar. I just replied and lost it all! Argh! The way of my computer since upgrading to Windows 10. So sensitive.
In my heart and with the information you have given me on Darrell John Johnson (aka Bill) I feel he is the man I have been looking for. It is just too much of a coincidence that Darrell was known as 'Bill' Johnson.
Earlier I deleted about an hours worth of searches I had carried out on William Johnson without success.
I really think in the case of Hyde vs Hyde divorce, where the Co-respondent was served papers at 61 Hampstead Road, as William Johnson, it came about as John Hyde presumed ‘Bill’ was short for William. Maybe a form of identity was not required back then?
Thank you Ros for the information on Susan and Edward. I will update what I can on Ancestory.
Speaking of mixed names, another man I will be needing some valued help with is my great grand father – my mothers grandfather. I believe his name was Enoch Henry Cartwright – I have found records for him (BDM NSW) as surname; Cartwright and the first names; Henry, Harry and Enoch and in no specific order. He lived in Sydney but in two different records place of birth > Birmingham and Staffordshire in UK. Died at the age of 96 in Auburn NSW in 1955 and apparently lived in the colony for 80 years. That is for another day and I might need to know what forum I should use but like I said, that is for another day!
I’m sorry to repeat myself but THANK YOU for all your time and effort in helping me solve a lifetime of mystery! Really! To think of the huge amount of time I have spent looking for 'BILL' and my post on here took less than a few hours if that to find him and so much more! I hope one day I will be of help to someone else.
Have a good night! Thanks again!
Karen
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http://ryersonindex.net/search.php
CARTWRIGHT, Enoch Henry (Harry) SMH, June 02, 1955 pg22 (Will PM death and funeral notice)
Enoch Cartwright http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/deceased-search-engine
Link shortened: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ig4/
(Thanks Jamjar for reminding me about the 'Shrink Link')
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Cupoflife, I suspect the OP has the Aus information, but was referring to UK info being required.
Here is the 'Shrink Link' link used to shorten web addresses: http://www.rootschat.com/links/
Just copy the website address, paste into the SL box hit the Shrink Link button, and then copy and paste the provided, shortened link.
J.
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Thank you CupofLife and Jamjar!
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Getting back to NSW RO problems - they are asking for examples of records which could be retrieved up until a couple of months ago using archives investigator (now deceased) and can't be accessed now using their new search engine.
I thought the Johnson and Hyde divorce were 2 good examples - the Johnson one showed on the archived website which CupOfLife found and the Hyde divorce was ordered by Karen and confirmed by newsclip. :)
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JOHNSON as a surname was and continues to be among the TOP TEN for popularity in NSW. Once upon a time, including in the 1920s the then current electoral rolls were available for anyone to look through at Post Offices. You did not need to ask at the teller’s counter. You could also go to your local Alderman and ask for name/s of owner if you knew an address. And of course, you could go to the pub and ask around there too, so anyone with a bit of a grudge or alternatively ‘leg pulling’ etc could cause troubles for others… So, it is entirely possible that there has been a case of mistaken identity way back when the Petitioner in HYDE v HYDE was nominating a co-respondent. Perhaps a solicitor’s clerk went and looked through electoral rolls or asked a Postman or Milkman, or Baker, and found JOHNSON at the Auburn address, and put 2 + 2 together and assumed that there was no other likely candidate for co-respondent. Perhaps the co-respondent was JOHNSTONE, or JOHNSTON, or perhaps his name was simply a convenient invention to allow the divorce to proceed.
Sands Directories are free to search at the following link : http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory
Sands 1925 Directory has THREE pages of entries for the surname JOHNSON, several are in Auburn.
JM
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I'm sure Karen is aware that this possibility isn't a certainty (and probably never will be). But it's a strong lead and easier to investigate than the infinite other possibilities. We have a Bill Johnson living (and dying) at the same address as William Johnson when he was served with divorce papers.
There is a quite small chance that there maybe some clues in the probate and divorce files. Perhaps he has a handwritten will or perhaps the divorce file contains letters as evidence. The handwriting could be compared with the letters from Billy and well who knows ...?
Yes I'll try to get there this week ... :)
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Hi Ros!
Yes, I agree with you about the 'strong lead'. The coincidence is enough to make me believe that, that is Bill I am looking for. (Thank you ;D for offering to photograph some of the records for me - don't forget I do have the records of the divorce for Hyde vs Hyde but no signatures for William Johnson).
Having said that, I understand that I must try and prove the information is correct. The handwriting would be one way to find out - I have handwritten letters from 'Billy' J.
Hopefully with the results of the DNA test I may be able to have a little more proof.
Thank you MaJm! > I did take a look through the Sands Directories and viewed all the Johnson in Auburn but to no avail. (I also looked for my great, grandfather Enoch and found him as Henry at the correct address. However, I also looked up the surname Adams and could not find one!). Hopefully this link may help with other searches.
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Jamjar > Darrell John JOHNSON (aka 'Bill' but who knows why that is???)
I have been fleshing out all the information from BDM and found a few more. Getting there! Although I need a good stretch - my neck is aching!! ;)
Thanks again!
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Hi rosball!
It took three goes but I have now had my DNA tested and the returned results linked me to two relatives of Johnson so I am 99.9% sure Darrell John Johnson is my grandfather and is the same man you found the death notice for and other information. So thanks so much to you, and also to everyone else on Rootschat for contributing so much to help with my search. Still very stuck on getting more information and I wanted help with one more questions. Can anyone advise me the best way to find old school photos or do you know of any sites (Australian) that help with finding people in old photographs?
I hope that you all enjoyed the season break and I wish you all a very Happy 2017!
Karen
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Hi Karen,
How exciting that the DNA has provided such strong confirmation :) :D :D
Thanks for letting us know. We all enjoyed helping. :)
Happy New Year :)
Ros