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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: 001uk on Tuesday 13 September 16 21:56 BST (UK)
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Hello!
Any ideas please as to the location of this photo
LONDON Street WWI soldiers Craven Dairy with possible famous person
I get the impression the men wish to be photographed with the chap in the bowler hat. Does anyone recognise him? An MP possibly? Craven Dairy shop in background. Public House to right with BARCLAY PERKINS sign (Brewery in Southwark).
With thanks~001uk
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%26W_Nicholson_%26_Co
J & W Nicholson & Co - makers and purveyors of gin.
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Were the soldiers part of an escort for the man with the book? And what could be the significance of the book be, I wonder? Could it be the 1920s in fact?
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Good evening,
Possibly John or William Nicholson as they are outside one of their businesses.
John915
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Well it's certainly not William Nicholson (of MCC fame) who died in 1909.
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The "& Co." ;D ;D ;D
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It looks to me as if the soldiers are an escort for the person of interest.
Regards Crowsfeet
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Good morning,
William Nicholson MCC had two sons, John and William. They would have been about the age of the person in the photo. So a possibility there qjau.
John915
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have you looked for the businesses in historical trade directories or telephone directories?
In the 1917 phone book a branch of Craven Dairies was listed in Bow Street, and Nicholson Distillers in St John Street in the city. Obviously these entries aren't adjacent to each other but they could be listed elsewhere
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Distillery on St John Street:
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=18&lat=51.5248&lon=-0.1040&layers=168&right=BingHyb
Added: zooming in, I think the Craven Dairy sign might be an advertising banner - it seems to be made of a fabric (canvas?) :)
Obviously the Nicholson sign is outside a building, so if this is the case is this photo taken on St John St?
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There's a resemblance to Charles Chaplin but I'm not sure that the height fits
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/46/81/af/4681af45a1b4e822e0caa6fddc25e591.jpg)
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Deleted ....
(due to not reading the OPs original post carefully enough ....) :-[
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J & W Nicholson & Co - makers and purveyors of gin.
Indeed. Either Nicholson or Gilbey. Their names were plastered (pardon the pun) everywhere. Alas the pub's name is not visible.
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Looks more like Gene Tunney than Charlie Chaplin, matthewj64.
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Were the soldiers part of an escort for the man with the book? And what could be the significance of the book be, I wonder? Could it be the 1920s in fact?
Escort? Possibly. (MPs having male escorts........Shurley shum mishtake)?
It could be the 1920s. There's an awful lot of men around which would suggest post WWI Is the attire right for then?
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It looks to me as if the soldiers are an escort for the person of interest.
Regards Crowsfeet
The two soldiers at the left are looking very jovial to be escorting someone of (possible) importance - unless he's a comedian (Chaplin he is NOT)!! :(
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have you looked for the businesses in historical trade directories or telephone directories?
In the 1917 phone book a branch of Craven Dairies was listed in Bow Street, and Nicholson Distillers in St John Street in the city. Obviously these entries aren't adjacent to each other but they could be listed elsewhere
Hello dawnsh,
Thanks for replying.
I have several Kelly's London directories (plus of course the online availability) but couldn't find CRAVEN DAIRIES. Seeing NICHOLOSON on a pub is like CADBURY'S on a grocers. However, Bow St is a good clue.
May I ask what other branches are there of CRAVEN DAIRIES? What was the door # of the Bow St shop? Do you hold that 1917 phone book?!
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....zooming in, I think the Craven Dairy sign might be an advertising banner - it seems to be made of a fabric (canvas?) :)
Indeed, it's an advertising awning to stop the sun - which by the shadows is beaming directly at the shop selling butter & milk etc. Or did it, dare I say go......"Past your eyes" ?
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Looks more like Gene Tunney than Charlie Chaplin, matthewj64.
Indeed there IS a resemblance, I wouldn't knock it out. Would an American wear such a hat?
Apparently Tunney was known as a thinking fighter, hence the book?! I looked on Wiki which doesn't list any Pro boxing matches in the UK.
Perhaps if he's outside a pub he was Punch Drunk.....?
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do you want me to move this to the London Board so more eyes get to see it?
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Given the probable approximate location,as per dawnsh,perhaps the background is coincidental and he is being escorted to Bow Street Magistrates Court?Perhaps the book is relevant to a trial?
Regards
Roger
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Just as a matter of interest the soldiers are wearing economy tunics, and although difficult to see, the cap badges could be Army Service Corps.
Jebber
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Just as a matter of interest the soldiers are wearing economy tunics, and although difficult to see, the cap badges could be Army Service Corps.
Jebber
Or, if it was after 1918 the Royal Army Service Corps. Yes it does look like their cap badge.
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He reminds me of someone about to get on the soapbox and deliver a controversial speech on the evils of drink or some other inflammatory topic, but why the military presence.
Mike
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Good afternoon,
As they are wearing economy tunics then it is 1915 1917ish. The economy tunic was only issued during WW1.
Also no medal ribbons which would indicate during the war and not post war 1920s..
I had thought maybe Roman Rd, Bow but the difficulty is that London was badly damaged in WW2. Most of Roman Rd is post war buildings.
John915
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Given the probable approximate location, as per dawnsh, perhaps the background is coincidental and he is being escorted to Bow Street Magistrates Court? Perhaps the book is relevant to a trial?
Whoever the gentleman is, maybe he's <i>leaving</i> the court, and looking as if he has just won his case ... but what case ?
Post Office Directory 1915
Bow St
East Side
Police Court
Police Station
Board of Trade Exchange
30 London County & Westminster Bank
31-3 Elders & Fyffes Ltd fruit importers
33-4 Lyons J cafe
35 Bradley & Son fruit salesman
36 Express Dairy Co Ltd
37 Globe Tavern
38 Harris Thomas dairyman
39 Marquis of Anglesea
Whilst the business names don't fit the picture, the nature of the businesses do.
Looking at the curve of the street on G**gle maps I think the picture is taken outside the Marquis of Anglesea.
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Rootschat Field Trip?
http://www.nicholsonspubs.co.uk/restaurants
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Rootschat Field Trip?
http://www.nicholsonspubs.co.uk/restaurants
I'm in!
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I think the man is under arrest-I think I can just make out handcuffs on his right wrist.It looks like they are using coats over the arms in an attempt to disguise the fact.I'll see if I can post a close-up.
(my mind strayed briefly to Dublin 1916...)
Regards
Roger
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In the 1917 phone book a branch of Craven Dairies was listed in Bow Street, and Nicholson Distillers in St John Street in the city. Obviously these entries aren't adjacent to each other but they could be listed elsewhere
Thank you VERY much dawnsh ! I do believe your suggestion of BOW St to be correct so I'm acting as judge & jury and classifying this one as "Located".
I've enlarged the facade of the last building in the row and compared it with a view of today. Unfortunately the property immediately before has netting up for restoration work which is s*ds law. Similarly, I was in Covent Garden the day before yesterday and could have checked!
The fact that there was a pub, dairy, pub, dairy fits in with the my image. So, it HAS to be BOW St, LONDON. (Also thanks to sugarbakers for the directory info).
It would appear CRAVEN DAIRIES shop didn't last for very long.
All that remains now is who is the hatted chap?
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I think the man is under arrest-I think I can just make out handcuffs on his right wrist.It looks like they are using coats over the arms in an attempt to disguise the fact.I'll see if I can post a close-up.
(my mind strayed briefly to Dublin 1916...)
Regards
Roger
Thanks Roger....could WELL be. The book would hide the connecting chain whilst the coat hides his attachment to the soldier on the right. IF there is an Irish connection I'm certain his ID will be known. Good idea.
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Good evening,
The arched windows are Bow St Magistrates court. Craven dairies is now part of the Marquis of Anglesea.
I doubt he is in handcuffs, at that time the police used fairly close linked wrist cuffs. Why would soldiers be escorting a prisoner away from the court. If he was military he would surely be in uniform himself, as a civilian he would be under police escort.
I think it most likely he is a well known stage actor as we are in the middle of theatre land. They are just getting in on a photo opportunity.
John915
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I cannot recall when the Military Police were formed, but I imagine that a prisoners escort would be smarter than that group, One of them would be a sergeant, and they would probably be carrying side arms.
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I wonder if it could be Sir Roger Casement (without beard) the famous Irish Nationalist executed in August 1916, he had a famous black book.
James
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The man in the photo looks younger than 50. Casement was 51 when he was executed in 1916.
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More to the point, from my extensive internet searching
1/ there's no getting round he did have a beard
2/ he looks nothing like the chap in the photo
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At least he was tried at Bow Street Magistrates Court,as I"m sure you know.Can't find a record of any supporters\demonstrators being arrested.
Regards
Roger
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As a long shot,I wonder if,as suggested,this is a publlcity stunt.....for Harry Houdini?
https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/70/126770-004-17C332E9.jpg
Regards
Roger
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As a long shot,I wonder if,as suggested,this is a publlcity stunt.....for Harry Houdini?
Only if he had had an ear transplant. ;)
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Could it be the soldier walking in the gutter who is the subject of this photo?
Is the chap in the bowler hat his brother?
Why are they both smiling?
Is the soldier on his way to be awarded a VC or some other decoration?
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Could it be a 1926 photo during The General Strike?Can anyone make out the wording on the poster in the window-is the word "workers" in there?
Regards
Roger
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It dates to 1915-1916 because of the tunics. Also no collar badges - removed during WW1
Ken
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my first impression had been an actor, what is the size of British codes of law?
Regards
Rudolf