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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: RuleFamilyQld on Tuesday 20 September 16 13:25 BST (UK)

Title: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: RuleFamilyQld on Tuesday 20 September 16 13:25 BST (UK)
Hello,
 I'm trying to track the movements of my great-great-great-grandmother Matilda Jane Hume and her father James Hume.
What I know so far.
James immigrated to Tasmania (we have since discovered it arrived in NSW not tasmania)on 08 October 1837 aboard the "Andromache" from the UK with his then wife, Margaret Hume ( no children).
 I am unsure of what happened to Margaret Hume, but I did find a Margaret Hume returning from Tasmania to London in 1846.
In 20 November 1844 he married Hannah Malley ( haven't found where she immigrated from yet)
They had two children, possibly three .
The two I know of are:
*Matilda Jane Hume b.15 May 1847
*James Hume (junior) b. 12 June 1850 and passed away in 17 feb 1852.

Hannah passed away in 21 April 1853 (haven't sited a death certificate but there was another entry of a Hannah Humes dying in Tasmania in 1851 age 36, Hannah was apparently born in 05 Jan 1816 which would put her at age 35/36 when she passed away so this is plausible) (* we have since found a Hannah Hume passing away in NSW in April 1853)

After Hannah passed away it has been told that James could not raise Matilda on his own and so she became adopted by his Brother David Hume and his wife Hannah Hume ( another Hannah).

David and Hannah Hume also immigrated to Tasmania NSW on the same boat as James.
David and Hannah later move to the Maitland/Carrow brook/ Largs?Dunmore area in Nsw.
I know Matilda was in that area by 1863 at the latest because she gave birth to a child in East Maitland.
James Hume (not to be confused with James Hall Hume, David's son and Matilda's first cousin whom she married in 1868) passed away after complications from almost drowning on 29 March 1853 1861.

I would like to see if I can find the movements of these families between Hannah's death in 1851/1853 and Matilda giving birth in 1863.

I have tried to look up passenger lists of ships departing Tasmania for Newcastle or Sydney but haven't had much luck.

I am researching the daughter that Matilda gave birth to in 1863 but that is a whole different can of worms :D

At this stage it would be great if I could build a picture of her mother, Matilda's movements in those years prior .
If anyone has any ideas on where I might find information that would be much lay appreciated.

Thank you so much.

POST SCRIPT UPDATES: thank you to those lovely helpers for finding this information
* James Hume Junior was born in Tasmania in 1850 but died in NSW in 1852; so they migrated to the Mainland between these years.
* It looks like Hannah may have died in NSW also, not Tasmania.
* They originally immigrated aboard to Andromache to NSW ( which could be where Margaret Hume left/died), then it seems they later moved to Tasmania which is where James married Hannah Maley/Malley/Mailey and gave birth to James junior and Matilda. After which they moved back to the mainland where it seems James junior and Hannah passed away.

Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: Dundee on Tuesday 20 September 16 14:08 BST (UK)
Hannah passed away in 21 April 1853 (haven't sited a death certificate but there was another entry of a Hannah Humes dying in Tasmania in 1851 age 36...

I can't see a Hannah who died in 1853?  Was it in Hobart? Was it registered?  Did she actually die in NSW?

The one who died in 1851 in Tas was a Gardener's wife (your James was a Tailor) and the child by the same name who died in 1855 appears to be her daughter.

https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD35-1-3p117j2k
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD35-1-5$init=RGD35-1-5p49jpg


James Hume (not to be confused with James Hall Hume, David's son and Matilda's first cousin whom she married in 1868) passed away after complications from almost drowning on 29 March 1853.


So James died before Hannah?  I'm confused  ;D

Ok, I see he died in 1861 in NSW.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/28624847

Debra  :)
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: Dundee on Tuesday 20 September 16 14:17 BST (UK)
*James Hume (junior) b. 12 June 1850 and passed away in 17 feb 1852.

He also died in NSW, so you know the family travelled between his birth in Tas in 1850 and his death in NSW in 1852.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: Dundee on Tuesday 20 September 16 15:37 BST (UK)
The Andromache arrived into NSW in 1837, not Tasmania. 

Baptisms at Parramatta for David and Hannah from 1840/41.

NSW BDM have this one as 1840, FamilySearch 1841.

I assume the father's name is incorrect.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTDG-TJT

Debra  :)
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: RuleFamilyQld on Tuesday 20 September 16 23:39 BST (UK)
Wow that is fantastic! Thank you so much. The dates that I have are not concrete because we are still to sight original documents. Yes James Hume senior was a Tailor, it is written on their marriage certificate which I do have. It would explain why I can't find records in Tasmania. So they arrived on the mainland, then made their way to Tasmania, there he married Hannah who gave birth to James and Matilda and then between 1850 and 1852 they returned to the mainland.
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: RuleFamilyQld on Tuesday 20 September 16 23:41 BST (UK)
The Andromache arrived into NSW in 1837, not Tasmania. 

Baptisms at Parramatta for David and Hannah from 1840/41.

NSW BDM have this one as 1840, FamilySearch 1841.

I assume the father's name is incorrect.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTDG-TJT

Debra  :)

David Hume is James' brother. He also married a Hannah (née Johnson). Matilda went to live with them later in life.
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: RuleFamilyQld on Tuesday 20 September 16 23:44 BST (UK)
Hannah passed away in 21 April 1853 (haven't sited a death certificate but there was another entry of a Hannah Humes dying in Tasmania in 1851 age 36...

I can't see a Hannah who died in 1853?  Was it in Hobart? Was it registered?  Did she actually die in NSW?

The one who died in 1851 in Tas was a Gardener's wife (your James was a Tailor) and the child by the same name who died in 1855 appears to be her daughter.

https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD35-1-3p117j2k
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD35-1-5$init=RGD35-1-5p49jpg


James Hume (not to be confused with James Hall Hume, David's son and Matilda's first cousin whom she married in 1868) passed away after complications from almost drowning on 29 March 1853.


So James died before Hannah?  I'm confused  ;D

Ok, I see he died in 1861 in NSW.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/28624847

Debra  :)

Haha yes sorry James senior died in 1861.. It was late, not sure where I pulled 1853 from lol
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: RuleFamilyQld on Wednesday 21 September 16 00:06 BST (UK)
Hannah passed away in 21 April 1853 (haven't sited a death certificate but there was another entry of a Hannah Humes dying in Tasmania in 1851 age 36...

I can't see a Hannah who died in 1853?  Was it in Hobart? Was it registered?  Did she actually die in NSW?

The one who died in 1851 in Tas was a Gardener's wife (your James was a Tailor) and the child by the same name who died in 1855 appears to be her daughter.

https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD35-1-3p117j2k
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD35-1-5$init=RGD35-1-5p49jpg


James Hume (not to be confused with James Hall Hume, David's son and Matilda's first cousin whom she married in 1868) passed away after complications from almost drowning on 29 March 1853.


So James died before Hannah?  I'm confused  ;D

Ok, I see he died in 1861 in NSW.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/28624847

Debra  :)

A few family trees on ancestry say Hannah died in Strawberry Hills Nsw
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: Aussie1947 on Wednesday 21 September 16 01:39 BST (UK)

Hi,

A David Hume from Dunmore leaving the Colony in 1854.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/690941?searchTerm=

Dunmore was/is near Maitland.

Gerry
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: majm on Wednesday 21 September 16 01:55 BST (UK)
....

Hannah passed away in 21 April 1853 (haven't sited a death certificate but there was another entry of a Hannah Humes dying in Tasmania in 1851 age 36, Hannah was apparently born in 05 Jan 1816 which would put her at age 35/36 when she passed away so this is plausible).

NSW BDM’s online index of their holdings of Early Church Records Burials
Volume 106,  line 611, in the year 1853,   Hannah HUME aged 37,
Volume 139, line 568, in the year 1853, Hannah HUME, aged 37

Likely these two references are for the one burial.  NSW BDM burial records are usually scant on family history information.  They should give you a cemetery.

Civil registration BDM commenced in NSW in 1856.

JM
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: majm on Wednesday 21 September 16 02:18 BST (UK)
NSW BDM’s online index of their holdings of Early Church Records Burials
Volume 106,  line 611, in the year 1853,   Hannah HUME aged 37,
Volume 139, line 568, in the year 1853, Hannah HUME, aged 37

From NSW State Records Guide, Volume 106 is Presbyterian ECRs and covers burials from 1851-1854. 

https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-registers-1787-1856

The Ferguson Library's postal address is at Strawberry Hills.

A few family trees on ancestry say Hannah died in Strawberry Hills Nsw

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AUS-NSW/2010-01/1264060133
 
JM
 
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: judb on Wednesday 21 September 16 02:19 BST (UK)
Hi RuleFamilyQld
I'm finding this a bit confusing - probably me!

It would be helpful if you could go back and edit the wrong information in the earlier posts.  You can highlight and then use the 'strike through' button S which is next to the B and I buttons.

James Hume senior was a Tailor, it is written on their marriage certificate which I do have. It would explain why I can't find records in Tasmania. So they arrived on the mainland, then made their way to Tasmania, there he married Hannah who gave birth to James and Matilda and then between 1850 and 1852 they returned to the mainland.

Was all of the following in Tasmania?
In 20 November 1844 he married Hannah Malley ( haven't found where she immigrated from yet)
They had two children, possibly three .
The two I know of are:
*Matilda Jane Hume b.15 May 1847
*James Hume (junior) b. 12 June 1850 and passed away in 17 feb 1852.


So - James HUME and his first wife Margaret arrived in NSW 1837 per Andromache.
By 1844 he was in Tasmania to marry Hannah MALLEY.
Baby James born in Tasmania 1850 and dies in NSW (as we now know from Debra's post) 1852.

Have I got this right so far?

Judith

Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: Aussie1947 on Wednesday 21 September 16 02:34 BST (UK)
Hi,

Andromache, arrived in Sydney 31st October 1837.

David Hume, 29, gardiner, married with 2 children.
James Hume, 22, tailor, married, no children.

Gerry
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: judb on Wednesday 21 September 16 02:39 BST (UK)
Just some TROVE snippets which seem to be him in Hobart.

A sale of tailoring goods at his premises 1847 - there is a number of ads for his goods in 1847
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/163501233

Selling a 'patent mangle' on show at his premises, Elizabeth St, Hobart. 1847
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8759795

The house he is occupying is to be let, 1849
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8759795

Insolvent, Dec 1847
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8762022

There are a couple of mentions of a James HUME, saddler in the same area of Elizabeth St, Hobart - so perhaps this may be him also. Edit to add - probably not according to later post by Debra

Judith
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: RuleFamilyQld on Wednesday 21 September 16 02:44 BST (UK)

Hi,

A David Hume from Dunmore leaving the Colony in 1854.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/690941?searchTerm=

Dunmore was/is near Maitland.

Gerry

oo that is interesting Thank you. I have looked through trove for David and James but hadn't come across this one. I wonder if he left and returned because I have other documents and articles showing him back in Dunmore with his wife Hannah owning an Orchard in 1869. That gives me some clues to look at shipping records, thank you
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: RuleFamilyQld on Wednesday 21 September 16 03:02 BST (UK)
Hi RuleFamilyQld
I'm finding this a bit confusing - probably me!

It would be helpful if you could go back and edit the wrong information in the earlier posts.  You can highlight and then use the 'strike through' button S which is next to the B and I buttons.

James Hume senior was a Tailor, it is written on their marriage certificate which I do have. It would explain why I can't find records in Tasmania. So they arrived on the mainland, then made their way to Tasmania, there he married Hannah who gave birth to James and Matilda and then between 1850 and 1852 they returned to the mainland.

Was all of the following in Tasmania?
In 20 November 1844 he married Hannah Malley ( haven't found where she immigrated from yet)
They had two children, possibly three .
The two I know of are:
*Matilda Jane Hume b.15 May 1847
*James Hume (junior) b. 12 June 1850 and passed away in 17 feb 1852.


So - James HUME and his first wife Margaret arrived in NSW 1837 per Andromache.
By 1844 he was in Tasmania to marry Hannah MALLEY.
Baby James born in Tasmania 1850 and dies in NSW (as we now know from Debra's post) 1852.

Have I got this right so far?

Judith

Yes that is correct Judith Thank you
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: Aussie1947 on Wednesday 21 September 16 03:06 BST (UK)
I wonder if there two D. Hume persons at Dunmore at that time?

Maybe he didn't leave Dunmore as advertised!

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18657853?searchTerm=

Dunmore was the large property on which the Highlanders off the Government Bounty Ship 'Midlothian' settled in early 1838, many of the 'Midlothian' immigrants refused to separate and were settled as tenant farmers as a group on Dunmore.

Gerry

Gerry
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: RuleFamilyQld on Wednesday 21 September 16 03:21 BST (UK)
Just some TROVE snippets which seem to be him in Hobart.

A sale of tailoring goods at his premises 1847 - there is a number of ads for his goods in 1847
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/163501233

Selling a 'patent mangle' on show at his premises, Elizabeth St, Hobart. 1847
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8759795

The house he is occupying is to be let, 1849
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8759795

Insolvent, Dec 1847
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8762022

There are a couple of mentions of a James HUME, saddler in the same area of Elizabeth St, Hobart - so perhaps this may be him also.

Judith
that's great, thank you. And i guess tailor to saddler isn't a far stretch, just learning to work with different materials
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: RuleFamilyQld on Wednesday 21 September 16 03:25 BST (UK)
I wonder if there two D. Hume persons at Dunmore at that time?

Maybe he didn't leave Dunmore as advertised!

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18657853?searchTerm=

Dunmore was the large property on which the Highlanders off the Government Bounty Ship 'Midlothian' settled in early 1838, many of the 'Midlothian' immigrants refused to separate and were settled as tenant farmers as a group on Dunmore.

Gerry

Gerry
That's quite possible , I know David Hume senior also had a son David Hume
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: Dundee on Wednesday 21 September 16 04:21 BST (UK)
James HUME the Saddler was married to Bridget GRAHAM.  Something to keep in mind is that both the Tailor and the Saddler lived in Elizabeth Street, Hobart at the same time.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: majm on Wednesday 21 September 16 04:57 BST (UK)
James HUME per Andromache 31 October 1837 to Sydney as a Bounty Immigrant. 
He was a  TAILOR, married, Episcopalian,  aged 22, native of Newcastle, England, and he was brought our by Messrs WALKER and Co.

His wife :
Margaret HUME per Andromache 31 October 1837 to Sydney, Bounty Immigrant, a seamstress, married, Episcopalian, aged 19, native of Newcastle, England, brought out by Messrs WALKER & Co. 

http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?Page=NRS5313/4_4780/Andromache_31 Oct 1837/4_478000010.jpg&No=2     (two page passenger list)

JM
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: majm on Wednesday 21 September 16 05:21 BST (UK)
I think James HUME, tailor was in Sydney in 1842.... See NSW State Records Insolvency Index which has the following
James HUME,
(Locality) Sydney
Tailors
Sequestration 12 December 1842
Certificate Issued 10 July 1844

http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/keyname.aspx

JM





Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: Aussie1947 on Wednesday 21 September 16 05:41 BST (UK)

Hi,

Wonder if there was another Hume brother in NSW in 1842 because the sequestration order for 12th December 1842 was for John and James Hume, tailors and drapers of Pitt Street.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/230360547?searchTerm=

Gerry
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: Aussie1947 on Wednesday 21 September 16 05:54 BST (UK)

John Hume arriving from England, 1839.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12862965?searchTerm=

4th column part way down, JOHN HUME.

Gerry
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: judb on Wednesday 21 September 16 06:07 BST (UK)
Many thanks for 'tidying up' the early posts.  I think I get it now!  ::)

Perhaps this is him - although there seems to have been a few men of the same name:

Per Wanderer, Sydney to Tasmania, arr 26 October 1843
Jas HUME

Cannot see a departure from Tasmania on the LINC site, anyway, although there are a couple of departures listed but they are to Melbourne and do not appear to have a child accompanying.
https://www.linc.tas.gov.au/

Judith


Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: judb on Wednesday 21 September 16 07:48 BST (UK)
I note that James and Margaret give their 'native place' as Newcastle and religion as Epicopalian, while David and his Hannah give Native Place as xxxxxxxxwick, Northumberland and religion as Presbyterian.

Here's a long shot.............

Lots of HUME family arriving 31 Jan, 1839 on the Andromache.  As all of them give their 'native place' as Newcastle on one list I suspect they may be family. They are all bracketed together and then each couple bracketed again.  the list below incorporates more than one immigration list, so I have combined the slightly different information.

Andrew HUME, 29 Carpenter,, Northumberland
Mrs HUME, 27, (Anne Amelia), dressmaker, Newcastle
Robert HUME, 2, Newcastle
(Marriage for this couple from FamilySearch)
Ann Amelia Mitford m Andrew HUME
15 Nov 1835, Saint John'S Parish, Newcastle Upon Tyne, England)

Robert HUME 25, mason, Northumberland
Mrs HUME (Sarah), 22, Northumberland, straw bonnet maker

Thos HUME, 21, mason, Northumberland, s/o Andrew and ? Gardiner
Mrs HUME, (Mary) 20, dressmaker, Durham, d/o James POTTS of Newcastle

George HUME (single) 22, plasterer, Northumberland
Mrs HUME, mother to above.(Ann nee STIRLING ?) m Andrew Hume, 2 Jun 1803 at Eglingham, Northumberland, England

Now the question is - are these your family?

I see this baptism which is possibly your James
FamilySearch
James HUME
Baptised 27 Sep 1815, All Saints, Newcastle-Upon-Tyne, Northumberland, England
Mother:   Anne Hume (so possibly the mother of the HUME family arriving 1839)
FHL Film Number:   1068962, Reference ID:   item 3 p 147

There is at least one on-line tree which suggests that your James is a sibling of the above, however I would need a bit more of a hunt to verify this.

I'm thinking that IF Matilda had all these aunts and uncles it's possible that she was living with one of them.  She was only 6 when her mother died.

Judith





Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: RuleFamilyQld on Wednesday 21 September 16 11:42 BST (UK)
I note that James and Margaret give their 'native place' as Newcastle and religion as Epicopalian, while David and his Hannah give Native Place as xxxxxxxxwick, Northumberland and religion as Presbyterian.

Here's a long shot.............

Lots of HUME family arriving 31 Jan, 1839 on the Andromache.  As all of them give their 'native place' as Newcastle on one list I suspect they may be family. They are all bracketed together and then each couple bracketed again.  the list below incorporates more than one immigration list, so I have combined the slightly different information.

Andrew HUME, 29 Carpenter,, Northumberland
Mrs HUME, 27, (Anne Amelia), dressmaker, Newcastle
Robert HUME, 2, Newcastle
(Marriage for this couple from FamilySearch)
Ann Amelia Mitford m Andrew HUME
15 Nov 1835, Saint John'S Parish, Newcastle Upon Tyne, England)

Robert HUME 25, mason, Northumberland
Mrs HUME (Sarah), 22, Northumberland, straw bonnet maker

Thos HUME, 21, mason, Northumberland, s/o Andrew and ? Gardiner
Mrs HUME, (Mary) 20, dressmaker, Durham, d/o James POTTS of Newcastle

George HUME (single) 22, plasterer, Northumberland
Mrs HUME, mother to above.(Ann nee STIRLING ?) m Andrew Hume, 2 Jun 1803 at Eglingham, Northumberland, England

Now the question is - are these your family?

I see this baptism which is possibly your James
FamilySearch
James HUME
Baptised 27 Sep 1815, All Saints, Newcastle-Upon-Tyne, Northumberland, England
Mother:   Anne Hume (so possibly the mother of the HUME family arriving 1839)
FHL Film Number:   1068962, Reference ID:   item 3 p 147

There is at least one on-line tree which suggests that your James is a sibling of the above, however I would need a bit more of a hunt to verify this.

I'm thinking that IF Matilda had all these aunts and uncles it's possible that she was living with one of them.  She was only 6 when her mother died.

Judith

Yes, the Ann Hume ( married to Andrew Hume) listed above is mother to James Hume and David Hume who I am following. She would be Matilda's grandmother. We know from  at least 1863 she was staying with David and his wife Hannah and later married their son, her first cousin, James Hall Hume.
I have evidence that at least for a little while she was living with William Brettell and his wife Jane Ferrier Hume who was also the daughter of David Hume and Hannah Hume. We believe she was sent to live with them while she had an illegitimate pregnancy.
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: majm on Wednesday 21 September 16 11:50 BST (UK)
I am very confuddled now.

....
George HUME (single) 22, plasterer, Northumberland
Mrs HUME, mother to above.(Ann nee STIRLING ?) m Andrew Hume, 2 Jun 1803 at Eglingham, Northumberland, England

Now the question is - are these your family?

I see this baptism which is possibly your James
FamilySearch
James HUME
Baptised 27 Sep 1815, All Saints, Newcastle-Upon-Tyne, Northumberland, England
Mother:   Anne Hume (so possibly the mother of the HUME family arriving 1839)
FHL Film Number:   1068962, Reference ID:   item 3 p 147


Yes, the Ann Hume ( married to Andrew Hume) listed above is mother to James Hume and David Hume who I am following. She would be Matilda's grandmother. We know from  at least 1863 she was staying with David and his wife Hannah and later married their son, her first cousin, James Hall Hume.
I have evidence that at least for a little while she was living with William Brettell and his wife Jane Ferrier Hume who was also the daughter of David Hume and Hannah Hume. We believe she was sent to live with them while she had an illegitimate pregnancy.

So a lady who first married in 1803 and who from at least 1863 was staying with David and Hannah,  'later married their son, her first cousin James Hall Hume" .....   so errrrr .... when she married James Hall HUME .... how old was she?   Does the marriage certificate give you reason to believe she was that old?  And she was sent away in the 1860s to have a child?

Please un-confuddle me.

JM
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: RuleFamilyQld on Wednesday 21 September 16 12:10 BST (UK)
Oh I'm sorry, I meant Matilda went to live with them.


James and Margaret Hume came to Sydney aboard the Andromache in 1837. ( unsure what happened to Margaret)

James and Hannah Malley were married in Tasmania on 20 November 1844
Matilda was born to James and Hannah Hume in Tasmania on 15 May 1847.
James was born to James and Matilda Hume in Tasmania on 12 June 1850.

at some point here, between 1850 and 1852 the family moved to the mainland by the looks of it.
James junior died on 17 feb 1852 in NSW.
Hannah Hume (mother) died on 21 April 1853 in Strawberry Hills Nsw.

Family stories tell that James couldn't raise mAtilda on his own, and so Matilda went to live with James' brother David Hume and wife Hannah Hume ( née Johnson) who had also come out on the Andromache.

In 1863 Matilda, age 17, gave birth to an illegitimate child, not listing any father, in East Maitland. Hannah Hume ( her Aunty) was listed as a witness and the informant was William Brettell. William was married to Jane Ferrier Hume, daughter of David and Hannah Hume as listed above, and Matilda's cousin.

In 1868 pregnant with her second child, Matilda married her first cousin James Hall Hume.

So I'm trying to map Matilda in those years 1850 ( when they may have returned to the mainland) -1863( when she gave birth in East Maitland)

Essentially I am trying to narrow down if I can find Matilda's Child's (Jane) biological father. James Hall Hume is listed on her death certificate but there is no father listed on her birth certificate. There is quite a bit of family gossip around this.
Hope this has helped with the time line a little.
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: majm on Wednesday 21 September 16 12:16 BST (UK)
Agh,  thanks, makes sense to me now. 

Have you sought the baptismal records for Matilda's children born outside of a formal marriage?   You may find that the original parish registers may have a margin note re their father/s.  Clergy are not concerned if the civil statute laws are observed. 

JM
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: RuleFamilyQld on Wednesday 21 September 16 12:17 BST (UK)
Agh,  thanks, makes sense to me now. 

Have you sought the baptismal records for Matilda's children born outside of a formal marriage?   You may find that the original parish registers may have a margin note re their father/s.  Clergy are not concerned if the civil statute laws are observed. 

JM

Oooo no I haven't, that's a good tip! Thank you
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: Gilnockie Tower on Friday 17 May 19 14:03 BST (UK)
Matilda Jane Hume is my Great Great Grandmother.
Her illegitimate daughter Olive Jane Hume born 23rd September 1863 Bellevue near West Maitland is my Great Grand Mother.
The suspected father was a Scotsman named McRae or an aboriginal stockman named Tommy McRae.
I once saw an article in The Maitland Mercury where the Humes brought an aboriginal stockman to court to confess being responsible for Matilda's pregnancy.
I am following a lead that this stockman may be Tommy McRae who worked for Andrew Hume.
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/mcrae-tommy-13074
Regards
John
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: RuleFamilyQld on Friday 17 May 19 22:47 BST (UK)
Hi, thanks for your reply.
Olive Jane Hume is also my great great grandmother.
He son Mervin is my great grandfather.
His daughter Mona (Joan) is my Nana, her daughter Debbie is my Mum

Me>Debbie>Mona(Joan)>Mervin>Olive

My Aunty has mentioned Tommy Mcrae before, but it is interesting to see more about him, I wasnt aware he was an artist.
I look forward to hearing more. Cheers
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: sparrett on Saturday 18 May 19 09:13 BST (UK)
I wonder if you have any photographic record of your ancestors.

I think if the father was an indigenous Australian, some characteristics would show in the child and even possibly, in the generation following her.

Sue
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: Gilnockie Tower on Monday 20 May 19 13:04 BST (UK)
Hullo Cousin

I have not as yet found the original Maitland newspaper article re Adam & James Hume in Court. But the following information I found on the Hunter Valley Geneology Forum which no longer exists.

"The only indigenous person I have is a Jane Hume born 1863 to a Matilda Jane Hume, (dau of James Hume and Hannah Malley,) who later married her cousin James Hall Hume. Jane ( who appears to have been of mixed blood) married a James Bowles . There is an article that appeared in the Maitland newspaper a few days after Jane's birth in which both David and James Hall Hume were taken to court for assaulting an aboriginal.  Their defence was they did this to teach him to live up to his obligation to his new daughter and to give both mother and daughter full financial support."

"According to stories, David Hume (1808-1893) and his son James Hall Hume had issues with a man over his refusal (or inability) to provide financial support to Matilda Jane Hume and her baby Jane. And it seems that there is some confusion surrounding the identity of Jane's father. Some assert that it was the Scottish born Donald McCray who immigrated to Australia in 1838 aboard the James Pattison. Others say Jane's father was an unnamed local Aboriginal man." 

"I have searched Trove thoroughly, and articles indicate that David Hume found himself in court twice over some kind of feud with McCray, and that James Hall Hume was in court once for assaulting McCray. Yet, there are no mentions of McCray fathering a child with Matilda Jane Hume." 

"Gilnockie, in one of your earlier posts, you said that your grandmother (Florence Ellweis Curtis Bowles) was the daughter of James Bowles & Olive Jane Hume, and that Olive Jane's parents were James Hall Hume (1840-1923) & Matilda Jane Hume (1847-1932). I'm wondering how many daughters James Hall Hume had. When he was aged 12, his first cousin Matilda Jane Hume was taken in by his parents to be raised as his sister (Matilda's mother and brother had died, and her father was not able to raise her by himself). When Matilda was 16, she gave birth to a daughter Jane. It is unknown whether the father's name was listed as "Hume" on her birth certificate because the father was a Hume (specifically James Hall Hume), or because the baby needed a surname, and Matilda's surname was Hume. Some family trees have attributed this child to James Hall Hume." 

"James Hall Hume eventually married his cousin Matilda when she was aged 21 and pregnant with her daughter Doris Hannah. They had 3 more daughters, Matilda Maud, Ann Dorothy and Sarah Mildred. In 1894, their daughter Ann (aged 20 and unmarried) had a son Adolphus Lindon. Again the father's name was simply documented as "Hume" and the child was raised by James Hall Hume and Matilda Jane. Also in 1894, Sarah Mildred (aged 15 and unmarried) had a daughter Myra May. Again the father's name was simply documented as "Hume" and the child was raised by James Hall Hume and Matilda Jane. Was James Hall Hume responsible for all of these children?"

I am not sure if Tommy McRae (who worked for Andrew Hume) was even involved because the name mentioned above is Donald McCray (McRae).

Regards
John
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 21 May 19 06:20 BST (UK)
Well, this is the only item I have found so far which uses the names McCRAE and David HUME together in an  assault incident in 1863.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18707476

Sue
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: majm on Tuesday 21 May 19 06:30 BST (UK)
Re the missing Hunter Valley genealogy forum...  have you tried Rootsweb list

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ntt/
 

JM
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 21 May 19 07:40 BST (UK)
Hullo Cousin

 
  Some assert that it was the Scottish born Donald McCray who immigrated to Australia in 1838 aboard the James Pattison. Others say Jane's father was an unnamed local Aboriginal man."

 

Regards
John

The Donald McRAE  in the matter of assault which took place at Dunmore, in the item I have listed above , was a not born in Scotland.
He was born in 1839 in Australia according to his obituary  in 1908.
The location of Dunmore is mentioned in both items.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/124442612

Sue
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: majm on Tuesday 21 May 19 08:18 BST (UK)
In this cutting the reporter has Donald McRAE assaulting David Hume at Dunmore.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18707476  Maitland Mercury 10 Oct 1863

In this cutting James HUME was charged with using threatening language towards Donald McCRAY at Dunmore… and David HUME also was on a charge against that same chap, Donald McCRAY.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18709990  MM 5 November 1863.

I cannot find any mention of a dispute over Matilda's baby's birth father in the Maitland Mercury.  :-\

I wonder if the person who wrote up the story for the Hunter Valley Genie forum may have assumed that ‘native’ indicated the person was an Aboriginal Person.  I am certain that ‘native’ has been discussed quite a number of times on this board, and it does not indicate anything about ethnicity.  It simply indicates where the person was born.   So for example on the James Pattison shipping list mentioned recently, one of the headings should indicate the ‘native place’ for each passenger. 

The NSW BDM birth registration for 1863 asks for the birth places for each of the parents.  But if the mum is the informant and if she did not inform the registrar that she was a married person, then the baby’s registration would be extremely unlikely to name the baby’s father or give his native place information.   A parish register for baptisms may well have a margin entry.  I mentioned that option several years ago, on this thread.

JM
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: Gilnockie Tower on Wednesday 22 May 19 10:25 BST (UK)
"The only indigenous person I have is a Jane Hume born 1863 to a Matilda Jane Hume, (dau of James Hume and Hannah Malley,) who later married her cousin James Hall Hume. Jane ( who appears to have been of mixed blood) married a James Bowles . There is an article that appeared in the Maitland newspaper a few days after Jane's birth in which both David and James Hall Hume were taken to court for assaulting an aboriginal.  Their defence was they did this to teach him to live up to his obligation to his new daughter and to give both mother and daughter full financial support."

I am starting to wonder if I ever did see this newspaper article. It was some years ago when I was on the Hunter Valley Genealogy Forum. I have not be able to find the article on TROVE or in my research files. Maybe the sole source of the above reference was from HVGF.
Thankyou RuleFamilyQld, sparrett & majm for your recent posts. I am analyzing your information for further research direction. Meanwhile here is a photo of my Grandmother Florence Ellweis Curtis Bowles daughter of Olive Jane Bowles nee Hume whom I never met. Florence looks more Ivory than Ebony to me !
Title: Re: HUME, Matilda. Looking for passage from Tasmania to mainland with father James
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 22 May 19 12:32 BST (UK)
The woman in the photograph, in my opinion, does not show indigenous characteristics as may be expected in one with an aboriginal heritage in her mother.
Sue

ADDING
It occurs to me that items in a forum, such as the one you mention, may be without factual basis.