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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lincolnshire => Topic started by: horse000 on Friday 23 September 16 00:13 BST (UK)
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Hi
Born March 1899 Grimsby. Parents = William Lee and Margaret Lee nee/formerly, GLEGG.
William was a fisherman.
The family were in Hull by 1901 with a 6/12 sister, Violet, father probably away at sea. Family are all together in 1911.
Looking for anything on William [? b. Sately] & Margaret [b. Scotland]
Many thanks
Geoff
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He is Francis William Lee in 1911, b 1861 Satley. As you say, he is not with the family in 1901.
Margaret is b 1870 "Scotland" in 1901 and 1911.
You will need to use the website Scotland's People to find Margaret's details, however the site is undergoing work, (I have forgotten the dates) so may not be usable for a while. Familysearch may be useful in the mean time.
Do you have Francis/William or Margaret in any other census?
Do you have their marriage?
Did you get MargRet's surname from Ena's birth certificate? If so did it name her father as William Lee rather than Francis Lee?
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Thanks, Ruskie..
I don't have them for definite in any other census.
Yes I got Margaret's surname from Ena's birth cert. You may have noticed I said 'nee/formerly', can't be sure if 1st/2nd marriage, a couple of other researchers have the marriage in Scotland, can't see it anywhere. Ena's father is listed as William Lee on the birth cert. Francis William would be out of place, he has a g'son with those first names.
I found one birth in Aberdeen for Margaret under GLEGG, but the DoB doesn't match 1939, though there could be an error. I have also found Ena in 1939, her DoB matches.
I can't see a seaman's ticket for William either ???
Geoff
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My first thought when I saw Margaret's former name as Glegg, was perhaps it is Clegg, so if Ena's birth certificate is the one and only time you see Margaret's surname written, keep in mind possible variations in spelling.
Scotland's People is down at the moment so we'll have to wait till that is back up and running before we look further for Margaret.
Do you know where Satley is? Google tells me Durham. I've not heard of this place before.
The thing to do would be to try to find the marriage certificate of Francis/William and Margaret. All the better if the marriage occurred in Scotland as we will get all four parent's names. When we know the name of Francis/William's father (at least), then we can try looking for him hopefully with his family in earlier censuses. I did have a quick look, but being unsure of his birth place and whether he is Francis or William, it is difficult to know which might be yours.
Re him being Francis or William - I'm not sure what you meant when you said that "Francis William would be out of place - he has a grandson with those first names"?
He is clearly calling himself Francis William Lee in the 1911 census. He may be one of thee people who used either or both names. I am keen to find him on earlier censuses to confirm place of birth and his name. :)
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Thanks again, Ruskie..
Yep, I've experienced those scenarios, hence putting it on here for, hopefully some answers.
Fairly common first and surname doesn't help, especially if using either at any given time.
I've put a thread on the Durham Board re. Francis William/William linking it to this thread in the hope that someone may notice an odd snippet or so.
Geoff
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Just having a look at Freebmd, there aren't many Francis William Lees born around the right time frame. There is one in Hull in 1858, and another in Boston in 1862. None in Durham.
It does not necessarily follow that either of the above are your ancestor. I haven't looked for a William yet.....
Added: as expected, there are quite a lot of just plain William Lees in Durham..... :-\
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The Francis of Boston was the son of Mary Ann Lee, spinster, of Chapel Hill Swineshead. I think she was a servant in Boston in 1861.
I can't find any further information but a Francis William Lee of the same age died in Lincoln in 1914. A newspaper report states that he was a lodger and died of a heart attack.
David
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Pretty sure that Margaret was the one born in Aberdeen.
A*try
1891 census Scotland
Alexr H Glegg born 1889 Aberdeen
I think Margaret is transcribed as Mary.
.......
On A*try
Alexandra Glegg
in the West Yorkshire, England, Reformatory School Records, 1856-1914
Says stepfather William LEE-mother Margaret.
Maureen
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I can't find any further information but a Francis William Lee of the same age died in Lincoln in 1914. A newspaper report states that he was a lodger and died of a heart attack.
His abode was Waterside North, Lincoln. There were lodging houses on that road.
No other person was buried in his burial plot (P539, St Swithins cemetery)
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Some other records:-
Alec Glegg, parent William Lee of 56 Bridge Street, was admitted to Holme Hill Junior Boys, Grimsby, in 1898 - birth 5 Nov 1888. Previous school St Andrews.
Alick Glegg, parent William Glegg of 60 Nelson Street, same birth date, admitted to the Junior School in 1899.
David
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Many thanks, folks... Some nice leads there.
The Glegg findings are of real interest, especially the Grimsby addresses and the 1891 Scottish census. Ena b. 1899 was living at the back of 112 Strand Street, there is a Bridge Street there and very close is Nelson Street.
I'm not sure of the 1914 death, I know they were in Hull after 1911 and Margaret is still there in 1939.
Thanks again
Geoff
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Following up on MaureeninNY's posting of the 1891 census:-
Lauchlan Glegg married Jane Massie on 22 May 1868 in Dundee
Margaret Glegg b 1870
Place: SAINT NICHOLAS, ABERDEEN
Father: Lauchlan Glegg
Mother: Jane Massie
1881 Census - Gallowgate, 111, St Nicholas, Aberdeen
Lauchlen Glegg b 1847 Aberdeenshire, Ship Builder
Jane Glegg Wife b 1847 Aberdeenshire
Helen Haslen Step Daughter b 1863 Dundee, Aberdeenshire, Millworker
Margaret Glegg Daughter b 1871 Aberdeenshire
Jane Glegg Daughter b 1873 Aberdeenshire
John Glegg Son b 1875 Dundee, Forfarshire (Angus)
Catherine Glegg Daughter b 1878 Aberdeenshire
Helen Mary Jane Haslam Or Massey b 1863
Place: DUNDEE, ANGUS
Father: Lawrence Haslam
Mother: Jane Massey
David
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Just throwing this in, even if just to eliminate.
I see from the reformatory records that Francis / William Lee was said to be addicted to drink & there is an article in the Norwich Mercury 30 May 1883 about a Francis William Lee, fisherman, aged 25, being drunk & quarrelling with another man. .
There is another article, on 11 December 1880, reporting that a George William Lee had been charged with assaulting his daughter-in-law, Elizabeth Lee, wife of Francis William Lee.
Possible marriage 25 Dec 1874, St Peter’s Lowestoft, Suffolk:
Francis William Lee, 20, Fisherman, Lowestoft. Father: William Lee, Fisherman
Elilzabeth Ann Hollis Harper, 18, Lowestoft. Father: Robert Harper, Labourer
Wit: William Harper & Mary Ana Adams
In 1881 they are in Lowestoft as William 26 & Elizabeth 24, although they have a 2-year old son named Francis William Lee.
On the 1861 census George William & Francis William are both recorded as William, with William Jr aged 6 and born Henstead, Suffolk. William Jr has a sister, Elenor – could Ena be named after her perhaps?
Looking at Google maps there is a place near Henstead called Sotterley, could this be the Satley from the 1911 census?
Added: In 1871 the family appears to be at Beccles Road, Barnby, and [Francis] William's birth place is given as Sotterley. RG10/1778/10/11
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Further to my last post, just to muddy the water there is this 1881 census entry, as well as the one which shows him at home with Elizabeth & children:
Henry Stevenson, Vessel Moored At Sea, Lowestoft
William Lea, 25, Married, b Sotley, Suffolk, AB Seaman RG11/1906/22/?
The Henry Stevenson is described as a Ketch, used for trawl fishing.
Could be that he's been recorded twice :-\
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Possible death:
Francis W Lee, Dec qtr 1937, Hull, aged 73 (1864).
The age would be well out compared to the records in Suffolk, but as the 1911 has him born c1861 maybe he just kept getting younger ;)
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Just popping in to say that I have posted on the Durham thread, where you say that his birthplace in 1911 is given as Satley, Durham.
In fact it isn't! It just says Satley, or even possibly Sotley and no county is stated :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=756358.msg6060809#msg6060809
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I really like Jomot's theory. :)
The wife (Elizabeth) is in Lowestoft in 1891-transcribed on A*try as Elizabeth GREEN. With her is a daughter Emma Jane born Scarborough, Yorks. So,that does put William LEE in Yorks at some point at least.
Elizabeth marries John Henry CAPPS in 1895 and says she's a widow. Was she? ???
Just wish we could spot William in 1891 and 1901.
Maureen
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Just popping in to say that I have posted on the Durham thread, where you say that his birthplace in 1911 is given as Satley, Durham.
In fact it isn't! It just says Satley, or even possibly Sotley and no county is stated :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=756358.msg6060809#msg6060809
Sorry JenB, that may be my fault as I asked in Reply #3 where Satley was because I'd never heard of it. Google suggested Durham. I did say I would like to see his place of birth in other censuses to confirm pob.
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In fact, the transcript on Familysearch says Satley, Durham but the sheet doesn't.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7TZ-77L
David
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Francis William Jnr. may have remained in Suffolk.
There is a marriage in 1898 to Eliza Apter. She appears on the censuses in Lowestoft but without Francis (at sea?)
They are together in 1939 at Tenyson Road in Lowestoft. His birth is 21 Sep 1880, which is out by 2 years, although this is not uncommon on the register. He died in 1947 - born 1879 (reg Q4 1878).
David
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Many thanks again, folks... Such a lot to digest with very plausible scenarios.
Geoff
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Possible death:
Francis W Lee, Dec qtr 1937, Hull, aged 73 (1864).
The age would be well out compared to the records in Suffolk, but as the 1911 has him born c1861 maybe he just kept getting younger ;)
I haven't found his death yet, this may be worth looking into, especially in the E/R for 1936/7, then check the address against Margaret's [wife] in 1939.
Geoff
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Memorial notices in the Hull Daily Mail May 19th 1919.
LEE - In loving memory of our dearly beloved mother Margaret who died May 29th 1918 aged 47.
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From her sorrowful husband and daughters Ena and Violet.
LEE - In loving memory of Margaret Lee who died May 29th 1918, aged 47.
We cannot forget you dear Maggie.....
......
Dearly remembered by her sister in law, brother in law and nephew George.
Alan.
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Wow!
Thanks for that Alan.
I had Maggie/Margaret still alive in 1939, it looks like the correct Maggie, daughters Ena & Violet are correct. So father, William looks to be alive in 1919.
Thanks again
Geoff
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This looks like the reg.
Deaths Q2 1918
Lee Margaret
Aged 48
Sculcoates [Hull] 9d, 166
Age fits well, she was b. 1870.
Geoff
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:) :) :)
Gosh,Alan. :)
Hurrah!!!
Maureen ;D
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A bit of a mystery.
In 1874, Francis William Lee married Elizabeth Ann Harper.
She seems to be the wife of William on the 1881 census.
In 1891 she is on the census, married but no husband, with a daughter Emma Jane, born in Scarborough, Yorkshire.
In 1895, status widow, she married John Henry Capps. Elizabeth Lee, father - Robert Harper.
They are on the 1901 census in Lowestoft.
Given that there seems to be no marriage between Francis William and Margaret, was he still married to Elizabeth and did Elizabeth marry bigamously? Alternatively, was he presumed dead or a different Francis William?
David
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A possible candidate for Margarets sister in law and nephew George from the Memorial notice.
Francis William Lee from Lowestoft area has a sister Charlotte, born Suffolk 1874. With her parents, in 1881 and 1891. Living with her sister Richander in 1901 (but without her two children?).
Charlotte has two children Bert Lee (1897) and George Lee (1899) in Lowestoft, before marrying George William Bottomley in Sculcoates in 1903. The family are together in Hull in 1911.
Bert dies in 1916. Hull Daily Mail - "Died from wounds received in action September 27th 1916. Bert Lee of the Yorkshire Regiment, beloved son of Mr and Mrs Bottomley, 110 Havelock Street, age 19".
Leaving Charlotte, her husband and son George.
Alan.
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:) :) :) :)
YES!
Fits perfectly.
I found it interesting that on the 1911 Margaret and Francis William had been "married" for 16 years.
1895 is the same marriage year for J H CAPPS and Elizabeth.
Maureen
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There is a school entry for Richander:-
Peddar's Lane Board/Girls School, Beccles, November 1873, Lee Richander of Barnaby, daughter of Elizabeth and William, Fisherman, Formerly at Barnaby School very backward.
Her children Adrewina and Richander are transcribed in 1891 as born on Stornaway, Isle of Man, but should be Isle of Lewis.
Daughter, Richander, married Willis Jillings in 1910 - on Freebmd.
Andrewina married in 1907 to William Brown or Henry Riseborough.
David
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In 1891 there is a birth registration for John Henry C Lee.
In 1893 there is a registration for James Capps Lee.
They are on the 1901 census as John and James Capps. Presumably, they are the children of Elizabeth, and John Capps was the father, but born before their marriage.
In 1910 John Henry Capps-Lee married, I think, Sarah Annie Wade.
In 1911, a child, Annie E M C Lee, was born with the mother's maiden name as Wade.
In 1914 there is a John H Capps with mother Wade and Audrey V in 1918.
John and Sarah are as Capps in 1939 at 4 Jacobs Street, Lowestoft.
Emma Jane Lee married as Capps in 1908 to William Frederick Reed and James Capps is with them on the susequent census. They had at least three children.
Audrey V Capps married, I think, in 1939 to Sidney T Leeeds.
David