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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Buckinghamshire => Topic started by: Brooke Greville on Tuesday 27 September 16 16:55 BST (UK)
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I am trying to trace any history of the Harcourts of Ankerwycke family from around 1800 to present living issue. I believe the last Lord of the manor of Wraysbury was a Captain Guy Elliot Harcourt.
What was the link between the Harcourt and Greville family.
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Hi,
You probably have accumulated lots of information on Captain Guy Elliot Harcourt and took the family history backwards and forwards. If you google his name, there is lots of information on him. Ancestry has several ancestry trees - have you tried to contact the owners of those to compare notes ? Guy Elliott Harcourt born 12 August 1869 - appears on the 1871 Census for St. Saviour, Jersey, Channel Islands with parents John L C and Harriet E E Harcourt. Harcourt history recorded back to 1700 ish with no reference to the Greville surname.
The probate for Guy Elliott Harcourt of 2 Branksome, Eastern Parade, Southsea, Hants, died 30 Oct 1936. Probate to Earnest Charles Daintrey and William Noel Wickham (solicitors). 3 December 1936 - Effects £48,677 12s 8d.
a few examples of what you might find on google.
http://www.wraysbury.net/history/manors.htm
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/144667-missing-captain-guy-elliot-harcourt/
http://www.filytreemaker.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/harcourt/335/
The son Guy Chandos Harcourt appears on FIND A GRAVE
1903 - 1976 - O.B.E.
Burial: St Saviour Roman Catholic Churchyard Totland Isle of Wight Unitary Authority
Isle of Wight.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=HAR&GSpartial=1&GSbyrel=all&GScntry=5&GSsr=161&GRid=46359337&
Married a Mary Felice Thwaites 12 December 1957.
Nov 28 1957 - Marriage will take place at Staines 12 December between Guy Chandos Harcourt, 46 rue Pergolese, Paris (XV1), son of the late Guy Elliot Harcourt, formerly of Ankerwycke Priory, Wraysbury and of Mrs Harcourt and Mary Felice Thwaites, elder daughter of Mr and Mrs AJD Thwaites of 9 Audley Ave, Gillingham.
Guy Chandos Harcourt of Willow Cottage Colwell Chine Rd Colwell Bay Isle Of Wight died 16 June 1976 - Probate London 11 November - £34, 757 &s 6d.
Sandra
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Hello Sandra
Thankyou for your help.
There are certain parts about this family in archives in Wraysbury, but there is also an indication that the Harcourts of Ankerwycke werer married into or connected by family to the Greville family, which is hinted at in various forums.
Snippets of truth is evident and goes to make a mystery worth looking into.
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Can you share theses snippets so that we can follow them up.
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There is an important family member named Otto Henry Simon Harcourt of Ankerwycke b1848, Milburn, Australia and it is his children I would like to trace, especially the male line. Otto was the eldest son of George Harcourt and his second wife Gertrude Lucas.
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt married a Muriel Ascroft circa 1892 in Cape Colony, Africa, who was their son.
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Hello Brooke Greville
According to this link about the Windsor area (Parish of Clewer)
http://www.berkshirehistory.com/castles/st_leonards_hill.html
The lodge was occupied by a Henry Greville and the 3rd Earl Harcourt purchased the residence he renamed St. Leonard's Hill.
Edward Vernon (Harcourt), Archbishop of York;
Earl's widowed sister, Sophie, the Marquise d'Harcourt
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WLQUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA177&lpg=PA177&dq=Harcourt+1830&source=bl&ots=s3OQ5zwLgE&sig=r-0YbP3KEhzvYb75zV_PXJLxZzQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjVzLj-6JvTAhUnC8AKHdKhCLoQ6AEIJzAF
Elsewhere, there is a claim that Henry Greville was Prime Minister.
http://www.windsor-berkshire.co.uk/dedworth/
I wonder if there was some Greville - Harcourt link in that area? See Bodleian Library catalogue link below.
Record collections listed by TNA, for 3rd Earl Harcourt
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F36166
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Bodleian Library, Oxford
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/1500-1900/harcourt-fam/harcourt-fam.html
letters to George Simon Harcourt, 2nd Earl Harcourt, from Frances Greville 1777
Verse by Elizabeth Harcourt, Countess Harcourt, 1750-1804 ...
verse, addressed to George Simon Harcourt, Viscount Nuneham, commencing 'Greville to yours my wish I join', Oct. 1765
Bodleian link has two other Greville references.
Regards Mark
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A Mr & Mrs Harcourt were two of those present at a Memorial Service of Captain the Hon. Ronald Greville.
The Manchester Courier, Friday, 10 April 1908.
In Memory of Captain Greville.
There was a large attendance yesterday at a memorial service at St. Margaret's, Westminster, in connection with the death of Captain the Hon. Ronald Greville, son of Lord Greville, who for some years represented East Bradford in the Conservative interest. Among those present were the Marchioness of Breadalbane, Sir E. Sassoon, M.P., the Earl of Crewe, Lord Colebrook, Sir E. Cassel, Mr. Younger, M.P., Mr Harcourt, M.P., and Mrs Harcourt, ...
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Thankyou Mark.
Ronnie Greville resided at Polesdon Lacy at the time of his death in 1908 and I wonder if these Harcourts who attended where from the Ankerwycke Harcourts.
Margaret Greville (Mrs Greville) Ronnies wife became a very well known hostess and was well connected to the Royal family.
Regarding Otto Simon Henry Harcourt, son of George Harcourt and Gertrude Lucas, have you ever come across confirmation as to Ottos childrens names, its his sons I need to trace.
Regards
Brooke.
The Manchester Courier, Friday, 10 April 1908.
In Memory of Captain Greville.
There was a large attendance yesterday at a memorial service at St. Margaret's, Westminster, in connection with the death of Captain the Hon. Ronald Greville, son of Lord Greville, who for some years represented East Bradford in the Conservative interest. Among those present were the Marchioness of Breadalbane, Sir E. Sassoon, M.P., the Earl of Crewe, Lord Colebrook, Sir E. Cassel, Mr. Younger, M.P., Mr Harcourt, M.P., and Mrs Harcourt, ...
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"Regarding Otto Simon Henry Harcourt, son of George Harcourt and Gertrude Lucas, have you ever come across confirmation as to Ottos childrens names, its his sons I need to trace."
Hello Brooke
Using
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt was born 1849 in the Registration District of Eton.
Otto Simon H Harcourt, married 1872 in the Registration District of Swansea.
Otto S H Harcourt, Married 1910 in the Registration District of Westminster.
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Newspaper Births
You may wish to check the index for free by signing into the GRO Index, as there may be more possibles.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
The Standard, 15 October 1874
BIRTHS
HARCOURT.- Sept. 7, at Athens, the wife of Otto Harcourt, Esq., of a son.
No name, but birth Athens.
The Morning Post (London), 27 August 1875
HARCOURT.- On the 24th inst., at Broadstairs, Kent, the [wife? scan unreadable / missing] Otto Harcourt, of a son.
Possibly Wilfred Otto HARCOURT, Registration District of Thanet.
London Evening Standard, 26 November 1877
BIRTHS.
HARCOURT.- Nov. 18, at 101, Randolph-road, Maida-hill, the wife of Otto Harcourt, Esq., of a son.
Possibly Norman HARCOURT, Registration District of Kensington?
I can't access any Census images, but hopefully, somebody on here will be able to check the family in the Census for you?
Regards Mark
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"Regarding Otto Simon Henry Harcourt, son of George Harcourt and Gertrude Lucas, have you ever come across confirmation as to Ottos childrens names, its his sons I need to trace."
Hello Brooke
Using
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt was born 1849 in the Registration District of Eton.
Otto Simon H Harcourt, married 1872 in the Registration District of Swansea.
Otto S H Harcourt, Married 1910 in the Registration District of Westminster.
--------------------
Newspaper Births
You may wish to check the index for free by signing into the GRO Index, as there may be more possibles.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
The Standard, 15 October 1874
BIRTHS
HARCOURT.- Sept. 7, at Athens, the wife of Otto Harcourt, Esq., of a son.
No name, but birth Athens.
The Morning Post (London), 27 August 1875
HARCOURT.- On the 24th inst., at Broadstairs, Kent, the [wife? scan unreadable / missing] Otto Harcourt, of a son.
Possibly Wilfred Otto HARCOURT, Registration District of Thanet.
London Evening Standard, 26 November 1877
BIRTHS.
HARCOURT.- Nov. 18, at 101, Randolph-road, Maida-hill, the wife of Otto Harcourt, Esq., of a son.
Possibly Norman HARCOURT, Registration District of Kensington?
I can't access any Census images, but hopefully, somebody on here will be able to check the family in the Census for you?
Regards Mark
Hello Brooke
1871 Census (image not checked)
St George, Hanover Square, Middlesex
Otto Harcourt, Lodger, age 22, Unmarried, Engineer, Birthplace Wraysbury, Buckinghamshire.
Cyril Harcourt, Lodger, age 20, Unmarried, Medical Student, Birthplace Ryde, Isle of Wight.
1891 Census from Family Search (original image not seen / checked)
De Grey Road, Emmanuel, Leeds
Otto S H Harcourt, Head, Married, age 42, Engineer, Birthplace Buckinghamshire.
Isabella L Harcourt, Wife, Married, age 37, Birthplace South America.
Beatrice M. Harcourt, Daughter, age 18, Birthplace England.
Gerald St J Harcourt, Son, age 9, Birthplace Yorkshire.
Ivor J Harcourt, Son, age 6, Birthplace Lancashire.
Isabella Turner, Servant, age 21, Birthplace Northumberland.
Annie W Wain, Servant, age 22, Birthplace Yorkshire.
Christening (image not checked)
2nd June 1880
Clifton, St Paul, Gloucestershire
Florence Helena Harcourt
Father's Name, Otto Simon Henry Harcourt
Mother's Name, Isabella Leonora Harcourt
Regards Mark
EDIT, a very broad search (results also have conflicting/poor transcriptions):-
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3AHarcourt~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1872-1910~%20%2Bfather_givenname%3AOtto~%20%2Bfather_surname%3AHarcourt~%20%2Bmother_givenname%3AIsabella~%20%2Brecord_country%3AEngland
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Mmn for Norman born 1877 - DeLisle
Added also same for Florence.
Jennifer
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1861 census Grammar School Felsted Essex
Scholar aged 12 with brother Cyril aged 10.
Jennifer
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Mother Johanna Helena DeLisle widow 43 married Newman Ward her father John Christian Zimmerman - merchant. Paddington 1866
Jennifer
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1861 census mother known as Helena born New York USA British Nat Sub all children born in Buenos Aires or Monte Video living in Birkenhead.
Jennifer
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Norman and Wilfred in Denstone College Staffordshire 1891 looks like Norman dies Natal South Africa.
Jennifer
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Mmn for Norman born 1877 - DeLisle
Added also same for Florence.
Norman Di Lisle Harcourt
Baptism 30 Jan 1878 St Saviour Paddington
parents Otto Simon Henry Harcourt occ Engineer & Isabella Leonora
18 Randolph Road
Register Type: Parish Registers
Perhaps someone has access for further details on following from Anc*y
Transvaal Province, South Africa, Estates Death Notice Index, 1855-1976
Norman DE Lisle Harcourt
baptism of Norman & Helena Dora Harcourt’s son Otto & dau Beatrice
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KYJ3-M9P
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVSH-FKG3
Wilfred Otto Harcourt
Baptism 2 Oct 1875 St Saviour Paddington
parents Otto Simon Henry Harcourt occ Engineer Isabella Leonora
8 Eastbourne Terrace Hyde Park
Not sure if this is same person
UK, Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Soldier Service Records, 1760-1920
Wilfred Otto Harcourt Age: 23
Birth abt 1877 Birth Place: Merthys Dovan Glamorgan, Wales
Service Start Year: 1900
Regiment: The Welsh Regiment
Regimental Number: Welsh/7473
Attestation Paper: y
Next of Kin father Mr O Harcourt, Nassaur? House, Francis Street Leeds
Ivor James Harcourt born 15 Aug 1884
Baptism Date: 5 Jul 1885 St Mary, Hulme Manchester,
Otto Harcourt occ Traveller & Isabella
Transcript only
Beatrice Maude Harcourt
Baptism 30 Apr 1873Saint John,Cardiff,Glamorgan,Wales
parents Otto Simon Henry Harcourt & Isabella Leonora
Beatrice is on 1881 RG11; Piece: 2164; Folio: 10; Page: 13 great niece of
Alfred & Juliet e L. De Lisle
Gerald Harcourt
Baptism 26 Mar 1882 St. George's, Sheffield, York, England
parents Otto Harcourt & Isabella
Gerald Harcourt age 23
Birth Place: Sheffield
Event Date: 23 Sep 1905
Prison or Quarter Session: HMP Wakefield
Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, England
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Christening (image not checked)
2nd June 1880
Clifton, St Paul, Gloucestershire
Florence Helena Harcourt
Father's Name, Otto Simon Henry Harcourt
Mother's Name, Isabella Leonora Harcourt
Burial
Florence Helena Harcourt age 0
Buria 18 Dec 1880 Westbury on Trym, Holy Trinity, Gloucestershire, England
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Hello Mark
Thankyou for this information, but some parts have me stumped. This Otto Simon Henry Harcourt is I believe the eldest son of George Harcourt's second marriage to a Gertrude Charlotte Lucas married abt 1846.
From what I have been told is that Otto Simon Henry Harcourt married a Muriel Ascroft abt 1892 and they had a son named Charles Walmer Harcourt b abt 1895. This son later used his mothers name Ascroft to enable him to inherit a gold mine in Magliesburg, Africa.
I also am led to believe Charles Walmer Harcourt (Ascroft) married in 1912 a Cecil Violet Enid Greville at Pietermaritzburg, Natal, Africa.
Is there any confirmation as to this person Charles and did he have siblings.
Thankyou
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Hello Mark
Thankyou for this information, but some parts have me stumped.
This Otto Simon Henry Harcourt is I believe the eldest son of George Harcourt's second marriage to a Gertrude Charlotte Lucas married abt 1846.
From what I have been told is that
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt married a Muriel Ascroft abt 1892
and they had a son named
Charles Walmer Harcourt b abt 1895.
This son later used his mothers name Ascroft to enable him to inherit a gold mine in Magliesburg, Africa.
I also am led to believe
Charles Walmer Harcourt (Ascroft) married in 1912 a Cecil Violet Enid Greville at Pietermaritzburg, Natal, Africa.
Is there any confirmation as to this person Charles and did he have siblings.
No father's named bride age 18 (consent by mother)
1912 marriage Charles Walmer ASCROFT age 25 (born c 1887)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6DMS-GZ2?mode=g&i=645&cc=2063749
Charles Walmer Ascroft
Regiment or Corps: R Army Service Corps
Regimental Number: T4/253152
Charles Walmer Ascroft
Military Year: 1914-1920
Rank: Sergeant
Medal Awarded: British War Medal and Victory Medal
Regiment or Corps: Army Service Corps
Regimental Number: T4/253152
Previous Units: R.A.S.C. T4/253152. Sergeant.
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/144665-missing-soldier-charles-walmer-ascroft/
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From what I have been told is that Otto Simon Henry Harcourt married a Muriel Ascroft abt 1892
Where did Otto marry Muriel? -
Edit - I can now see you answered that on post reply 4
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt married a Muriel Ascroft circa 1892 in Cape Colony, Africa, who was their son.
Looks as if he married for a third time
Sep 1910 Westminster
Otto Simon H Harcourt
Female name on same page
Hannah Russell
1901 census https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9TK-1ZQ
Otto S H Harcourt age 52 Mechanical Engineer born Wraysbury Buckinghamshire
Visiting him is
Hannah Russell age 36 Bradford Yorkshire Housekeeper (Domestic)
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt engineer
Hannah Harcourt photo artist
1914 address 91 Collins Street Melbourne
Mr & Mrs Harcourt aged 60 & 51
Port of Departure: Brisbane, Australia
Arrival Date: 17 Jul 1915
Port of Arrival: London, England
Ports of Voyage: Plymouth
Ship Name: Osterley
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt of 1b Grove End House St. John’s Wood
Died 5 Nov 1915 Probate 16 Nov 1915 to widow Hannah Harcourt
Hannah Harcourt widow of Coombe Wood House Surrey
Died 8 Mar 1942 Probate 7 May 1942 Midland Bank Executor & Trustee Company Ltd.
Llandudno
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I must thank you for your hard work in answering some questions, but there is a concern here that I cant understand.
This Charles Walmer (Harcourt) Ascroft is not showing in your content as a child for Otto Simon Henry Harcourt, I hope we have the same Otto of the Ankerwycke Harcourts.
We know Charles Walmer Ascroft exists but I have a document that indicates Charles Walmer Ascroft is in actual fact an elder Harcourt son and assumed the name Ascroft to inherit shares in the Gold Mines at Blaaubank, Magliesburg around the 1912 period.
The name Ascroft I think comes from his relative James Ascroft b abt 1834 Philadelphia and this family is closely linked to a James Jennings the magliesburg gold miner in Africa and Australia.
There must be a simple explanation or a mysterious case, because in this document I have, it indicates the father of Miss Cecil Violet Enid Greville was against her marrying a commoner until the mother of Charles Walmer explained he was of the Harcourt family and was due to inherit the gold mines, so the father Maj Brooke Southwell Greville relented. I also believe that Cecil Violet Enid Greville was born in 1896 making her just 16 when she married in 1912.
It is understood this gold mine was swindled away from Charles Walmer Ascroft in 1913 by his Father-in-Law Maj Greville with the help of the family solicitor a Mr Gordon Symonds/Simmonds of Johanesbourg. By coincidence Maj Greville and his daughter returned back to England in 1913/14 by ship from Durban on their own, the proud owners of a gold mine.
There was talk that one or two Harcourt sons went missing whilst prospecting for gold, I often wondered if Charles was one of them.
If this Charles Walmer Ascroft (Harcourt?) was the eldest son of Otto Simon Henry Harcourt it should be documented and would add a strong family branch to the Harcourt family. He existed, so his life should be on record somewhere. A lot of family and geographic facts tie up with what's being recognised now.
HELP.
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I haven't found anything else for a Charles Walmer Ascroft/Harcourt other than what's posted so far
his marriage 1912 which give his age 25 born c 1887
GRO indexes have these birth entries that give mmn LUCAS
Cyril Baldwin HARCOURT mmn LUCAS
1851 M Quarter in ISLE OF WIGHT Volume 08 Page 271
Otto Simon Henry HARCOURT mmn LUCAS
1849 M Quarter in ETON BUCKS Volume 06 Page 415
1851c https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGBM-28G
Gertrude Charlotte Harcourt (nee LUCAS) with son Simon age 9, plus 3 dau's and a son
(not named) age 0 not yet baptized
You may already have this info. on Cyril but will post anyway
Cyril Baldwin Harcourt
Residence : Saint Peter, Pimlico, Middlesex
Spouse's Name: Mary Louisa Ottley
Spouse's Residence: Holy Trinity, Upper Chelsea, Middlesex
Licence Date: 27 Nov 1876
from London, England, Crisp's Marriage Licence Index, 1713-1892
Marriage 14 Dec 1876 St Peter's Church Square London
Cyril Baldwin Harcourt son of Late George Simon Harcourt Esq. Ankerwycke formerly MP for Bucks
Mary Louisa Ottley dau of late Herbert Taylor Ottley Esq., Moyola Lodge Co Londonderry
and 28 York Terrace Regent’s Park London
source Belfast, Northern Ireland, The Belfast Newsletter (Birth, Marriage and Death Notices), 1738-1925
ADDED on 1881c
Cyril B Harcourt is Private Secretary To Archbishop Of Canterbury
Transcript only
Cyril Baldwin Harcourt
Baptism 11 May 1851 Holy Trinity, Ryde, Hampshire, England
Father: George Simon Harcourt Mother: Gertrude Charlotte
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Otto Simon Henry Harcourt married a Muriel Ascroft circa 1892 in Cape Colony, Africa, who was their son.
Do you know when he travelled to Cape Colony?
It must have been after 1891 and before 1901 as Otto is on 1901 UK census occ Mechanical engineer and his wife to be Hannah Russell is a visitor and 1891 UK census
with wife Isabella L (nee De Lisle) and children Beatrice 18, Gerald St J 9 & Ivor J 6
Beatrice Maude Harcourt bp 1873
Wilfred Otto Harcourt bp 1875
Norman De Lisle Harcourt bp 1878
Florence Helena Harcourt bp 1880 d1880
Gerald Harcourt bp 1882
Ivor James Harcourt Bp 1885 born 1884
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt Age: 42 (1849)
Event Date: 15 Jun 1891
Institute: Mechanical
Country/Region: United Kingdom
source UK, Mechanical Engineer Records, 1847-1930
He married Hannah Russell Sep 1910 it looks as if they might have traveled to Australia soon after their marriage - unless there is another Otto Harcourt ???
Mr O & Mrs Harcourt
Departure 15 9 1910
Departure port London
Destination port Melbourne
Destination MELBOURNE
Ship name Orsova
Otto Harcourt age 61 occ engineer
T??? Harcourt age 46
Arrival Date: 24 Oct 1910
Arrival Port: Brisbane, Australia
Departure Port: London
Ship: Orsova
Nationality: English
When did Muriel Ascroft/Harcourt die?
This is interesting looks to be the death of Otto's wife Isabella but he's noted as Widowed on
1901 census ???
Isabella Leonora Harcourt died age 56 Jun 1910 Apr-May-Jun
RG13; Piece: 4436; Folio: 132; Page: 5
You need to look at 1901 census
Written in last column
? has come ? knowledge that the 4 members of this family do not sleep here on the census night ? ? schedule by Mr Harcourt under a mis apprehension
Crossed out
Otto Harcourt 46 engineer
Mrs I Harcourt wife
Gerald 19 son
Names crossed out
Ivor son
Wilfred son
Norman son
Beatrice Asterbury
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Cecil V E Ascroft remarried in London in 1927 to Edward Irvine Bussell.
Jennifer
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Hello Brooke
Just to confirm the 1910 Marriage of Otto Simon Henry Harcourt to Hannah Russell (already mentioned above).
I cannot find them in the UK 1911 Census.
The 1915 Probate Register also states his widow was Hannah Harcourt.
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Harcourt&yearOfDeath=1915&page=2#calendar
I have also checked the other 1910 Marriage on the same page of the Index and by eliminating that marriage, Otto has married Hannah Russell.
Regards Mark
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Cecil V E Ascroft remarried in London in 1927 to Edward Irvine Bussell.
Would there be any mention of Cecil's husband Charles' whereabouts in their 1927 Divorce record
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8047726
Just to confirm the 1910 Marriage of Otto Simon Henry Harcourt to Hannah Russell (already mentioned above).
I cannot find them in the UK 1911 Census.
It may because Otto & Hannah traveled to Australia soon after their marriage in 1910 - see reply 22
Marriage 11th July 1910 St James, Piccadilly
married by Licence
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt f/a widower, occ engineer Jules Hotel Jermyn Street SW
father George Simon Harcourt Gentleman (dec'd)
Hannah Russell f/a spinster 29 Brunswick Street Chorlton Medlock Manchester
father Edward George Russell Gentleman (dec'd)
Witnesses Cyril B Harcourt & William Toz??
source Archive City of Westminster Archives Centre
As previously posted Otto & Isabella married 1872 - here's the details
Marriage 13 Mar 1872 St James Swansea
married by Licence
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt f/a occ Engineer, Mansel Terrace
father George Simon Harcourt Gentleman
Isabella Leonora De Lisle minor Marylebone
father Ferdinand Edward De Lisle merchant
Witnesses Joshua B & Edward John Excell
(they are brothers living in Swansea in 1861 with siblings & parents John & Elizabeth
1861c RG9; Piece: 4102; Folio: 104; Page: 14
Otto & Isabella's (nee De lisle) last child born appears to be Ivor James Harcourt b1884 and the family are together on 1891 census RG12; Piece: 3703; Folio: 53; Page: 17
Constituency in full: Parliamentary Borough of Leeds, North Division
Constituency: P B of Leeds, North Division
Year: 1896/1899/1900
Register type: Parliamentary Borough
Polling district or place: Leeds North Yorkshire
Archive: The British Library
Archive reference:SPR.Mic.P.365/BL.L.9
Image numbers: 203/403/415
Record set: England & Wales, Electoral Registers 1832-1932
1896 Otto Simon Henry Harcourt address 8 De Grey Road (living there 1891c with wife Isabella)
1899/1900 Otto Harcourt address 2 Francis Street
1901c Otto S H Harcourt & Hannah Russell
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9TK-1ZQ
On his 1912 marriage entry Charles Walmer Ascroft's age given 25 so born c 1887 -
if Charles Walmer Ascroft who married Cecil is the son of Otto Simon Henry Harcourt
What information do you have for Muriel Ascroft
ie parents names, year & place of birth, possible marriage to Otto etc....
Do you have Muriel on any UK censuses?
As mentioned it appears as if Otto's wife Isabella Leonora Harcourt died in Jun qtr. 1910 aged 56
There are these entries but there are no further details ie age, occupation, address and no middle names for Otto to confirm if its OSHH born c1846
Otto Harcourt
Port of Departure: London
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 27 Apr 1911
Vessel Name: Osterley
New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922
Mr Otto & Mrs Harcourt
Port of Departure: Brisbane, Australia
Arrival Date: 25 Jun 1910
Port of Arrival: London, England
Ship Name: Orvieto
UK, Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960
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Mmn for Norman born 1877 - DeLisle
Added also same for Florence.
Norman Di Lisle Harcourt
Baptism 30 Jan 1878 St Saviour Paddington
parents Otto Simon Henry Harcourt occ Engineer & Isabella Leonora
18 Randolph Road
Register Type: Parish Registers
Perhaps someone has access for further details on following from Anc*y
Transvaal Province, South Africa, Estates Death Notice Index, 1855-1976
Norman DE Lisle Harcourt
baptism of Norman & Helena Dora Harcourt’s son Otto & dau Beatrice
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KYJ3-M9P
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVSH-FKG3
for info.
There's this 1926 marriage in Johannesburg for a Norman De Lisle Harcourt
says he's a bachelor age 48 (1878) born England occ fireman
http://www.rootschat.com/links/index.php
https://www.geni.com/people/Norman-Harcourt/6000000000361860880
This Charles Walmer (Harcourt) Ascroft is not showing in your content as a child for Otto Simon Henry Harcourt, I hope we have the same Otto of the Ankerwycke Harcourts.
We know Charles Walmer Ascroft exists but I have a document that indicates Charles Walmer Ascroft is in actual fact an elder Harcourt son and assumed the name Ascroft to inherit shares in the Gold Mines at Blaaubank, Magliesburg around the 1912 period.
If this Charles Walmer Ascroft (Harcourt?) was the eldest son of Otto Simon Henry Harcourt it should be documented and would add a strong family branch to the Harcourt family.
He existed, so his life should be on record somewhere.
I'm sorry but I haven't found anything to indicate Charles Walmer Ascroft is the son of OSHH ???
Perhaps there is another Otto Harcourt ???
Can you share the document you have here regarding Charles Walmer Ascroft as the elder Harcourt son it might aid people searching
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Hi
I have printed the content word for word of a statement I received 19/12/2007.
This will be in 3 parts.
STATEMENT OF JEAN DESTANNE DE BERNIS
The ancestry of Peter Greville Ascroft was attested by Captain Guy Elliot Harcourt of Ankerwycke in a sworn deposition in 1926. The deposition was transcribed by Mrs Cecil Bussell and given to her niece Mrs Joan Sutherland, later Joan, Lady Carlton de Wiart, daughter of George McKechnie and Muriel Joan McKetchnie, formally Greville, daughter of Captain Brooke Southwell Greville of Pietermaritzburg, Natal, who married 1879, Pricilla Clough,b.1855 in Wynberg, South Africa, daughter of Edward Buerdsill (Buerdsail) Clough.
Captain Harcourt stated that Peter Greville Ascroft, who was born at his house at Longfield Farm, Ankerwycke, on the 27th June 1916 was his cousin. He stated that Peter Grevillle Ascroft was the son of his cousin, Charles Walmer Harcourt Ascroft, b. 11 May 1894, who was the son of Otto Simon Henry Harcourt, b.1849, who was the son of George Simon Harcourt of Ankerwycke, b.1807.
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt married at Wynberg, Cape Colony, on 5 June 1892, Muriel Ascroft, b. 1856, only daughter of James Ascroft, b. 1834 in Philadelphia (son of Hugh Ascroft or Ashcroft), of Philadelphia, by his wife Charlotte Ascroft, formerly Jennings, or Jennens, daughter of James Jennings of Magliesburg, son of James Jennings or jennens of Magliesburg who was b. 1816 at Londonbridge, Deverill, Wiltshire.
Hugh Ashcraft, or Ashcroft, or Ascroft, great nephew of John Thomas Ashcroft of Bird-in-the-Hand Court, London, by a Miss Tongue, had emigrated from Liverpool to Cape Colony, with his cousin, Loisa Ann Ashcraft (or Ashcroft or Ascroft) in 1828. Hugh Ashcroft (or Ascroft) then emigrated to America and landed in Philadelphia Pa. in 1832. His cousin, Louisa Ann Ashcroft (or Ascroft), b. 1799, remained in South Africa and m. at Wynberg July 4, 1830, ( diary entry of John Pears says 2 June 1830), John Pears, b Duns, Scotland in 1790, who landed at Cape Town, 3 March, 1829, Minister of Glen Lynden and had a daughter, Ann Christian Pears, b. 1831, who m. 1855, Alfred Everitt Murrey and had a son John Pears Murrey, b. 1866 in East London, South Africa, the grandson of Loisa Ann Ashcraft ( Ashcroft on marriage certificate), and cousin to James Ascoft, who emigrated from Philadelphia to South Africa in 1853.
In 1893, James Ascroft (grandson of John Thomas Ashcraft of London), father of Muriel Harcourt died. In October 1895 James Jennings (or Jennens) died. Her husband Otto Harcourt then assumed by sign manual, the name Ascroft, in order to inherit (under the terms of his father-in-Law's will), a shareholding in the Blaauwbank mine. The witness to the sign manual of Otto Harcourt wae the executor of James Ascroft's estate Gordon Symons of Johannesburg ( who late married Otto Harcourts sister, Agnes Matilda, dau. of George Simon Harcourt of Ankerwycke, at Wynberg, on April 7 1896.
Otto Ascroft, formally Harcourt, and his wife Mrs Muriel Ascroft, formally Harcourt (born Ascroft), had one son, baptized Charles Walmer Harcourt Ascroft, on 30 December, 1895 at Walmer, South Africa.
On 30 May 1912, at Pietermaritzbuurg, Charles Walmer Harcourt Ascroft, South African Mounted Police, m. Cecil Violet Enid Greville, b. 2 June 1896, youngest daughter of Captain Brooke Greville. Cecil Greville had been attending Wilmot's Select School for ladies in Wynberg when she met and was seduced (in the words of Captain Harcourts deposition 'ruined'), by Charles Ascroft and married him. Initially, her father captain Greville repudiated the marriage on the grounds that he had not, as required by law, given his consent; and on the grounds that his daughter, being only fifteen years old, could not contract a legal marriage.
Charles Ascroft's mother, Mrs Muriel Ascroft, formally Harcourt, then aquainted Captain Greville with the ancestry of her son and of his expectations from the Ankerwycke Estate. She then offered to settle on her son a substantial interest in the Blaauwbank gold mine. It appears that Captain Greville, satisfied that his son-in-law was of noble family and had prospects, then relented.
It is not known how, but in 1913, Charles Ascroft had been, in the words of Captain Harcourt's deposition, 'swindled' out of his share of the Blaauwbank Gold mine by his solicitor, and he was ruined. Captain Brooke Greville paid his son-in-laws debts and in 1913, Charles and Cecil Ascroft travelled to England, seeking help from his cousin Captain Guy Harcouurt. Captain Harcourt offered his cousins Longfield Farm at a peppercorn rent and they lived there until Peter Greville Ascroft was born in 1916.In thw words of Captain Harcourt, it was an 'abusive marriage', resulting in a terrible scene at Longfield in 1919, in which Cecil Greville's brother, Major Brooke Greville 'thrashed' Charles Ascroft, who then abandoned his wife and child and whom nothing more is known.
Signed: Jean Destanne de Bernis
Dated: 4th day of November 2007
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The statement has been put in full, so no need to put in three parts.
I do have some queries though as there is evidence showing how complicated some families can be.
1) Does this statement tell the truth.
2) I am led to believe Cecil violet Enid Ascroft (Greville) returned to London on her own with her father Captain Brooke Greville in 1913 and they both worked at the War Office and lived in 7 or 9 Beaufort gardens, Knightsbridge, London and with the proceeds from the gold mine Captain Greville purchased Revells Hall, Bengeo. Captain Greville became a Kings Messenger during WW1.
I believe Charles Walmer Harcourt Ascroft stayed or was left behind in Africa, where he served in the forces and after the war in 1919 he came to England and traced his wife to Ankerwycke, finding her with a son that was not his (if he was in Africa it makes sense). Her son was named Peter Charles Algernon Greville Ascroft and he was conceived in Sep 1915 and was born in June 1916 at Longfield Farm, Ankerwycke. Its possible Charles and his wife Cecil had a confrontation and Cecil called upon her 6ft 6in tall brother, Major Greville of the HLI to sort her husband out.
3) Cecil Violets relative Baron Greville, Charles Beresford Fulke Greville worked and socialised very closely with each other at the War Office and family functions and Cecil Violet conceived her child during September 1915.
The Greville family, who may have been very embarrassed moved their errant pregnant family member to Ankerwycke under the pretext that the child was a Harcourt child, but in actual fact, the child may have been the product of the intimate relationship between Cecil Violet and her married relative Baron Greville.
Was Charles Walmer Harcourt Ascroft serving in Africa or Europe during WW1, especially during 1913-1916.
Cecil Violet Enid Greville Ascroft was an elegant 6ft 2in Lady. When she arrived in England abt 1913 and she reverted back to her Greville name and considered herself single.
After 1919/20 she placed her young four year old son Peter Charles Algernon Greville Ascroft into a private boys school until he was sixteen and she went back to London and socialised as a single lady until she met her future second husband Air Comdr Edward Irvine Bussell CBE RAF who she married in 1927 at Kensington Registry Office.
Her young son aged just four was swept under the carpet by all parties it seems, as he was considered an embarrassment.
He is either a Harcourt child or the son of Baron Greville. Try and sort this one out.
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Hello Brooke
Until Monday, you can search, download and save the England & Wales Census page images we have mentioned?
http://www.ancestry.co.uk/cs/free-access
Just Register/Sign in (no Card required), then click "Search" both on the black Menu bar and try the Easter free offer.
I noticed a Lady Violet Greville (born Northamptonshire).
Regards Mark
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Thank you for posting extra info.
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt married at Wynberg, Cape Colony, on 5 June 1892,
Muriel Ascroft, b. 1856,
only daughter of
James Ascroft, b. 1834 in Philadelphia (son of Hugh Ascroft or Ashcroft), of Philadelphia, by his wife Charlotte Ascroft, formerly Jennings, or Jennens, daughter of James Jennings of Magliesburg, son of James Jennings or jennens of Magliesburg who was b. 1816 at Londonbridge, Deverill, Wiltshire.
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt and Isabella Leonora were still married 1892 ???
so he was not free to marry Muriel Ascroft (unless they had separated/divorced) ???
When Otto married Hannah Russell in 1910 he’s noted as a widow (wife Isabella died 1910)
Do you know when Muriel died?
In 1893, James Ascroft (grandson of John Thomas Ashcraft of London), father of Muriel Harcourt died.
In October 1895 James Jennings (or Jennens) died. Her husband Otto Harcourt then assumed by sign manual, the name Ascroft, in order to inherit (under the terms of his father-in-Law's will), a shareholding in the Blaauwbank mine.
The witness to the sign manual of Otto Harcourt wae the executor of James Ascroft's estate Gordon Symons of Johannesburg ( who late married Otto Harcourts sister, Agnes Matilda, dau. of George Simon Harcourt of Ankerwycke, at Wynberg, on April 7 1896
.
Otto Ascroft, formally Harcourt, and his wife Mrs Muriel Ascroft, formally Harcourt (born Ascroft), had one son, baptized Charles Walmer Harcourt Ascroft, on 30 December, 1895 at Walmer, South Africa.
Is there why Charles was given the middle name of Walmer?
When did Otto Simon Henry Harcourt travel to SA? Was it sometime before 1887
When did Otto Simon Henry Harcourt arrive back in UK? Otto on 1891 & 1901 UK Censuses
Charles Walmer Ascroft marriage to Cecil V E Grenville gives age 25 born c1887 - Otto Simon Henry Harcourt is on 1891/1901 UK census
Charles’ baptism is 1895 – does it give his dob?
Don't know if there's a connection here
Ascroft C of C.S. Dept. arrived Southampton from Delagoa Bay, Mozambique aboard the Durham Castle
There's this entry – again not sure if there’s any connection to your Harcourt family
posting as their leaving Cape Town and his occcupation is an Engineer
Mr A HARCOURT
Mrs M “
Mstr. P “
“ N “
arrived Southampton 25 Mar 1909 from Cape Town aboard the Galician
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Hello Ladyhawk
Nice work you are doing with Mark for the site.
This deposition I have printed out explaining the history relating around Otto Simon Henry Harcourt and Charles Walmer Harcourt Ascroft certainly adds up in a lot of areas. It shows that Cecil Violet Enid Ascroft (Greville) did actually give birth to her son Peter in 1916 at the Harcourt's house, matching up with what the statement indicates. I also have copies of the birth certificate relating to this child. I also have the marriage certificates for the two marriages of Cecil V E Greville, to Ascroft and Bussell.
The statement indicates Muriel Ascroft married Otto S H Harcourt (Ascroft) in 1892, so this date fits into a gap of Otto's marriages.
Q. Could it be that Otto being an active Gold miner/engineer sought marriage with Muriel because of the gold mining interest with the Blaauwbank Gold Mines at Magliesburg.
Q. Would the history of the Blaauwbank Gold Mine show who were the owners or shareholders, this would confirm any interests by these families if they were involved, Harcourt, Greville, Ascroft, Bussell, Jennings, Symons.
Q. There has always been talk of Ankerwycke Harcourt sons presumed missing while gold mining and prospecting either in Australia or Africa.
In the statement it indicates Mrs Muriel Ascroft, wife of Otto did speak to Captain Greville about her sons inheritance to relieve Captain Greville's concerns about his daughter marrying Charles Ascroft. This must have been done before the marriage in 1912 of Charles Harcourt Ascroft and Cecil Greville. So was Muriel Ascroft (Harcourt) still married to Otto SH Ascroft (Harcourt) abt 1900 to 1911 or could they have been separated before her son Charles married Cecil Greville in 1912.
Otto died in Milburn, Australia 1915.
Q. Is there evidence that Captain Brooke Southwell Greville, his wife, his daughter Mrs C Ascroft (or C Greville/ or C Harcourt?) or Charles Ascroft had travelled to England at the beginning of WW1, possibly 1913/14.
Q. Did the Greville and Harcourt/Ascroft/Bussell families have any mining interests in Africa. Captain/Maj Brooke Southwell Greville Kings Messenger worked at the War Office during WW1 and travelled around the world doing his job, where in Egypt persons tried to assassinate him for the messages he was carrying. He was also attacked in Europe, after these episodes he was the only British Army officer allowed to wear a silver pistol. His sons took after him by becoming Colonels of the HLI, brave lot by the sounds of it, so should be easy to trace.
Q. Is there evidence Charles Walmer (Harcourt) Ascroft came via boat to England from 1913 to 1920, or if he even served in the European war theatre during WW1 and got back to England after WW1 from Europe. It may have even been on a military vessel.
Note.
Cecil Violet Enid (Greville) Ascroft and her second husband Edward Irvine Bussell had a son Brooke Bussell b.1930. The son lived and worked as a mining engineer in the Natal area until the 1990's and his mother Cecil Violet Enid Bussell lived with her daughter Pricilla in a house with servants supplied by the mining company until she died in 1984, aged 88, I believe in the Petermaritzburg area.
This will get your investigative genes going.
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Q. Is there evidence that Captain Brooke Southwell Greville, his wife,
his daughter Mrs C Ascroft (or C Greville/ or C Harcourt?)
or
Charles Ascroft had travelled to England at the beginning of WW1, possibly 1913/14.
Not found anything 1913/14 on UK, Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960 ???
He was one of the witnesses to his son’s marriage in Yorkshire 1912
6th July 1912 All S. Nicholas Church Kelbrooke York
Brooke Southwell Edward Algernon Fulke Greville age 30
father Brooke Southwell Greville Rank/Profession Captain
Record set Yorkshire Marriages
BSEAFG 1901 Army record give pob Pietermar?berg S Africa born on 2nd June 1882
Nearest relative father Brooke Southwell address 11 Putney Hill London SW
Brooke Southwell Greville Manifest date 29th Dec 1923
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-8981-Z6D3?mode=g&i=11&cc=2185163
Mr & Mrs Greville arrived 7 Jul 1894 Liverpool from New York aboard the Lucania
both aged 42 his occ Merchant
Is this Cecil?
Cecil Enid Ascroft age 29 (1897) Ho’wife 2nd Class
address 4 Cleveland Rd Uxbridge Middlesex
At which passengers have been landed Liverpool
departure Montréal, Québec, Canada 5 Dec 1926
Ship Athenia
1932 Immigration Cecil Violet Bussell age 35 (1897)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-6D9B-14?mode=g&i=3009&cc=1876434
1947 Cecil Violet Enid Bussell
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G94V-TWLR?i=3009&cc=1923888
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Hi Ladybird
The last parts of your tracing is most definite Cecil Violet Enid (Greville) Ascroft.
Air Com Edward Irvine Bussell CBE was an Irish Canadian and in the early stages of his RAF career he was with the Canadian Air Force. Cecil Violet Ascroft would have gone over to Canada before she married her second husband Edward Irvine Bussell at Kensington Registry Office in 1927. Bussell remained a senior commanding officer in the RAF until his retirement, he was Douglas Bardars training officer and was on the select committee for the Bouncing Bomb in WW2. He lived at The White House, Old Avenue, Byfleet, Surrey.
I believe Bussell was also the founder of the Indian RAF.
In abt 1930 they had a child named Edward Brooke Bussell and after retiring from his mining career in Africa he purchased the Hamilton Hotel in Toronto, Canada, where he remains today.
In 1932 they had a second child Priscilla Bussell.
I could not confirm who the Mr and Mrs Greville are in 1894, both aged 42. Who of the Greville family was born abt 1842.
I wonder if Capt Brooke Southwell Greville and his daughter and others returned back to England from Africa in about 1913/14/15 by a British war boat or aircraft.
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Extra info
When Otto Harcourt lived in 18 Randolph Road in Middlesex he was married to my great grandmother Isabella Leonora Harcourt formerly de-Lisle. My grandad Norman was born to them in 1877 and died in Johannesburg South Africa in 1955.
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Hi All
I am the great grandson of Otto Henry Simon Harcourt and find some of your comments interesting, in particular the comments about Hannah Harcourt (Russell) as I have not been able to establish any connection here so would be great if you can share your documentation in this regard and any children from this marriage.
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I am the great grandson of Otto Henry Simon Harcourt and find some of your comments interesting, in particular the comments about Hannah Harcourt (Russell) as I have not been able to establish any connection here so would be great if you can share your documentation in this regard and any children from this marriage.
Hello and welcome :) - below are details brought forward from my reply number 25
Marriage 11th July 1910 St James, Piccadilly married by Licence
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt f/a widower, occ engineer Jules Hotel Jermyn Street SW
father George Simon Harcourt Gentleman (dec'd)
Hannah Russell f/a spinster 29 Brunswick Street Chorlton Medlock Manchester
father Edward George Russell Gentleman (dec'd)
Witnesses Cyril B Harcourt & William Toz??
source Archive City of Westminster Archives Centre
Otto & Isabella married 1872
Marriage 13 Mar 1872 St James Swansea married by Licence
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt f/a occ Engineer, Mansel Terrace
father George Simon Harcourt Gentleman
Isabella Leonora De Lisle minor Marylebone
father Ferdinand Edward De Lisle merchant
Witnesses Joshua B & Edward John Excell
Both the above marriage certificates can be viewed online at F M P
I looked at FreeBMD for any possible HARCOURT/RUSSELL children after 1910 - there does not appear to be any
here's the link if you would like to re check for yourself https://www.freebmd.org.uk
Otto & Hannah on 1901 census before they married
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9TK-1ZQ
Otto S H Harcourt Head 52 Wraysbury, Buckinghamshire
Hannah Russell Visitor 36 Bradford, Yorkshire
Fanny Manton Servant 44 Coventry, Warwickshire
Isabella Leonora Harcourt died age 56 Jun 1910
brought forward from reply 19
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt of 1b Grove End House St. John’s Wood
Died 5 Nov 1915 Probate 16 Nov 1915 to widow Hannah Harcourt
Hannah Harcourt widow of Coombe Wood House Surrey
Died 8 Mar 1942 Probate 7 May 1942 Midland Bank Executor & Trustee Company Ltd.
Llandudno
The above details can be searched and viewed here https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
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Extra info
When Otto Harcourt lived in 18 Randolph Road in Middlesex he was married to my great grandmother Isabella Leonora Harcourt formerly de-Lisle.
My grandad Norman was born to them in 1877 and died in Johannesburg South Africa in 1955.
Hello and welcome :) - reply 15/16 has some info. Norman