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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: DavidJP on Wednesday 28 September 16 20:02 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
I am having a bit of trouble finding out anything about a particular ship that my 3x gt grandfather was Master/Captain of.
My 3x gt grandfather was George Hill (1822-1903) who was born in Yetholm, Roxburghshire, Scotland.
He was a Master Mariner in the merchant navy. His numbers were 9155 & 41.576. I have a lot of detail of his merchant career, however, there has always been a bit of a mystery.
A gt gt uncle wrote in the late 1970's on a family tree the following:
"George Hill, Captain Brig Brecknels"
Now this ship does not appear in any of his records of his voyages.
However, a few days ago, I stumbled across a "Masters (originally Mates, but with a couple of letters added!) Claim for Certificate of Service" dated 28th Dec 1850 at the port of Dartmouth, on ancestry.
Seven ships are listed showing him as apprentice, seaman, mate & master. The very last ship listed is a ship by the name of "Bricknells" of 172 tons belonging to the port of North Shields of which he is master. Hopefully the particulars of service part of the above document should be attached below.
Having checked both the Clip website & googled I can find nothing about the ship Brecknels/Bricknells.
Questions, why can I not find anything about this ship? Did it ever exist? Why does this ship not appear on his official record of his voyages?
Can anyone help?
Many thanks in advance.
Kind regards
David
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Found this Danish reference in Google Books:
"Jacob Petersens skibsportrætter - M/S Museet for Søfart
mfs.dk/wp-content/uploads/2016/.../jacob_petersen_oversigthg.pdf
Translate this page
375. 1849. Engelsk brig BRECKNELLS af Blyth. Olie på lærred. Betegnet: Brig Breckneles of Blyth Capt.n George Hill. Signeret: I.P. 1849. Hoved- og biportræt ud for Helsingør. Foran hovedportrættet Toldkammeret og Kronborg. Reg. hos F."
Which translates as a reference to a painting:
Jacob Petersen ship portraits - M / S Museum of Maritime mfs.dk/wp-content/uploads/2016/.../jacob_petersen_oversigthg.pdf
375. 1849. English brig BRECKNELLS of Blyth. Oil on canvas. Inscribed: Brig Breckneles of Blyth Capt.n George Hill. Signed: I.P. 1849. Financial biportræt out of Elsinore. In front of the main portrait of Customs and Kronborg. Reg. At F.
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ShaunJ,
Many thanks indeed! That is absolutely brilliant!
I remember my late grandmother mentioning something about a painting of the ship (possibly a family story about it, but I can't remember unfortunately), but again had never been able to substantiate this. Any idea where the painting is now, does the reference give any indication of its whereabouts? Needless to say I am now dying to see this painting!
Many, many thanks again.
Kind regards
David
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It's in a catalogue of the works of Jacob Petersen (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwil5veyg7TPAhWGaRQKHQryArUQFgg9MAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmfs.dk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F04%2Fjacob_petersen_oversigt-HG-1.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEc63UF2kFw8MYUFyRLF87w6ZYBGw&sig2=O4YGA9yBol6YApc6HfqopA) produced by the Maritime Museum of Denmark.
Google translation:
"375. 1849
English brig BRECKNELLS of Blyth.
Oil on canvas.
Inscribed: Brig Breckneles of Blyth Capt.n George Hill.
Signed: I.P. 1849
Main and biportræt out of Elsinore. In front of the main portrait of Customs and Kronborg. Reg. At F.
Holm Petersen-1994.
Lloyd's reg. 1849: b. Newcastle in 1849, 172 tons, master G. Hill, owner Darling & Co., destin .: Newcastle -
Wismar.
Basic material attached. No representation of the ship.
(ID not set)"
I think the reference to "F Holm-Petersen 1994" must be the name of the owner in 1994
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She is listed in Lloyd's Reg 1849
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Mz0SAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:0Ftz6zT302-gFzEJxA5c6C&lr=#v=onepage&q&f=false
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Newcastle Courant - Friday 23 March 1849, Sound List, Brecknells, Hill, from Newcastle to Wismar.
Newcastle Courant - Friday 29 June 1849, Arrived at Foreign Ports. Wismar, June 16, the Brecknells, Hill from Shields
Newcastle Journal - Saturday 18 August 1849 Exports from Newcastle, Friday Aug. 10th. Brecknells, Hill, Carthagena, 63 chs coals, 58 tons 6 cwt cinders, W.Swanston. There are entries for the following years until the last entry I can find with Hill is in the Public Ledger and Daily Advertiser - Saturday 15 February 1851, Limerick, February 12. Arrived the Brecknells, Hill, from Galatz.
The Times (London, England), Thursday, Sep 22, 1853. Liverpool Sept. 21, the Brecknells, arrived here, sailed from Paraiba, Aug. 7; se encountered the gale on the 11th. inst.
The Times (London, England), Friday, Sep 22, 1854. Liverpool, Sept 21, arrived the Brecknells from Paraiba.
There are no more entries.
Stan
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Hi ShaunJ, seaweed & Stan,
Many thanks indeed for your replies, very much appreciated.
ShaunJ, Many thanks for the follow up details re painting of Brecknells, much appreciated.
Seaweed, Many thanks for link to 1849 Lloyds register detail, much appreciated.
Stan, Many thanks for newspaper details, that is brilliant & much appreciated. My 3x gt grandfather George Hill had it seems left the Brecknells by the end of July 1851 as his records appear to show him on board a different ship. Unfortunately, I have been unable thus far to identify either this ships name or the name of his next ship! I shall keep at it tho!
My thanks to you all again, your assistance is very much appreciated indeed.
Kind regards
David
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Hello David,
I notice that the first newspaper reference that Stan Mapstone gave you is from the "Sound List". That's very useful to you.
You'll find George Hill in his 172-ton vessel in March 1849 plus a listing of his cargo in the Sound Tolls database. You can also download the actual image from the register.
http://dietrich.soundtoll.nl/public/names.php?id=1474426 (http://dietrich.soundtoll.nl/public/names.php?id=1474426)
That would be a good accompaniment to a photo of the painting.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello again, David,
Further to my last:-
The link that I gave you listed George Hill's outward cargo from Newcastle to Wismar. Although the records are in Danish, they are not difficult to navigate. Some of the commodities listed are self-explanatory e.g. kul and vitriol.
Do not fall into the easy trap of assuming that Baltic voyages automatically meant coal out and timber home. There is an extracted database of commodities here and you will find it quite eye-opening:
http://dietrich.soundtoll.nl/public/cargoes.php (http://dietrich.soundtoll.nl/public/cargoes.php)
To find the listing of George Hill's homeward cargo on that voyage, you will have to root through the Shipmaster listings for G./George/Georg/etc. Hill/Hil/Hihl/etc. paying particular attention to the vessel tonnages and the dates. Vessel names are not given in the Sound Toll Registers; you'll have to extrapolate and deduce.
Also, do not be misled by an apparently wrong destination port. Very few foreign voyages went directly from A to B and back to A. More often, a round-trip voyage meant visiting several ports. In fact the usual descriptive wording of a proposed voyage on crew agreements often ends with something like "and thence to any port in the UK".
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hi Westoe,
Many thanks indeed for your replies, very much appreciated indeed.
That is some fantastic info, very much appreciated. I have found a few other cargo lists for George Hill on the Brecknells, also a few for his next ship the Laurel! Absolutely Brilliant!
She is listed in Lloyd's Reg 1849
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Mz0SAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:0Ftz6zT302-gFzEJxA5c6C&lr=#v=onepage&q&f=false
Just to add that I have also found the Brecknells with George Hill as master in the registers for 1850 & 1851. The entry & details for George in 1851 have a line through them though, with what appears to be the next masters details underneath. This matches/confirms the info I already had that he was on another ship by July 1851.
Many thanks again for all help & assistance, very much appreciated.
Kind regards
David
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Hi DavidJP,
I don't think I can send a PM as I've not posted yet or navigated my way around this site, so am hoping this will reach you!
George Hill (b. Yetholm 1821- d. Morpeth 1903) is my 3rd great grandfather so I do believe we are related :) I am (hopefully) attaching a picture (poor quality sorry) of a painting of the SS Brecknells of Blyth which he was Captain of.
Please feel free to PM me.
Thanks!
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Hi MammaMia17,
Firstly, a very warm welcome to RootsChat,
It is fantastic to hear from you! What a wonderful surprise, I had nearly given up hope of ever seeing the painting! To see it for the first time today, what a wonderful birthday surprise (yes, it is my birthday today! ;D).
George Hill (1821-1903) is also my 3x gt grandfather as well. He had five children, two died in infancy & a third married but had no children. What is your line of descent? Thomas Parker Hill (1851-1922) who had six children or George Hill (1856-1941) (my gt gt grandfather) who had seven children?
The PM system is as you say not operational to you until you have made three posts. I think it is three posts anyway! ;D
As regards the brig Brecknells, George Hill (1821-1903) was its very first captain. He was captain of the ship from 1849 to 1851. The Brecknells was built in 1849 & seems to disappear from the records (English/British ones anyway!) in 1855, what happened to the ship after that I do not know!
I would be more than happy to share what family info &/or the fair amount of info that I have regarding George Hill's Merchant Navy career. Would also be interested to here/know what info you have/know about either.
Kind regards
David
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Hi DavidJP,
Thanks for the welcome and a belated happy birthday! :)
The painting was apparently presented to Captain George Hill when he retired in 1865. Sadly, we do not know of its whereabouts now - understand it was sold at some point :(
George Hill (1856-1941) and Alice Spink are my great, great grandparents. Their son Francis George Hill (1893-1984) who married Frances Gray are my great grandparents. What about you?
I too have quite a lot of information about George Hill and his Master Mariner career and have also traced back to his parents James Hill and Elspeth Aitcheson although some of the info/dates become a bit sketchy at this point!! Likewise be very happy to share any info or photos etc.
If I reply once more, can we then communicate via private message?
Best regards, Sarah (MammaMia17)
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Hi Sarah,
Many thanks for the belated birthday wishes. much appreciated.
Hadn't realised that the painting had been presented to him! Although thinking about it, I do seem to recall my late grandmother saying something about it being possibly in the family somewhere, but that didn't she know where. I think that replies 1 & 3 to this thread by ShaunJ suggest a possible owner in 1994, as the painting appears to be listed in the catalogue of a Danish museum, if I understand it correctly! Until my late grandmother mentioned the painting, I had no idea of its existence! Captain George Hill retired in 1865?! I have records that show he continued at sea until about 1878 before becoming a Grocer back on dry land.
George Hill & Alice Spink are my gr gr grandparents as well, their daughter (their youngest child) Isabella Hill (1895-1981) who married Arthur George Cyril Bauer (1895-1968) are my great grandparents.
I have also traced back to James Hill & Elspeth Aitcheson & your absolutely right, some of the info/dates are a little sketchy at this point, as I have the same problem!! I have possibles for their births/baptism etc, but nothing concrete!
Yes, one more post, then if you prefer, we can continue via private message.
Kind regards
David
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Hi David,
Yes according to my Grandmother's handwritten notes, it was presented to George (b.1822) on his retirement in 1865. Whether this date is correct however I am not sure!
I do also remember in my searches over the years that I found another George Hill in same area who also died in same year (1903) which caused me some confusion for a while. ??? I think this George (rather than ours) may have been a grocer but I might be wrong. Would need to check.
I do have a couple of mates certificate records and some info on George's mariner career but not in the latter years.
The only concrete date for James Hill and Elsepth is the info from my Grandmother that they were married in Dunbar, East Lothian on 8th April 1803 and which I found a record to confirm.
I don't know if you have a picture of Isabella Parker, but I have one as well as one of George and Alice. I have 2 photos of George Hill (b. 1856) as well. Happy to share!
I will see if I can work out the PM system this week and send more info :-)
Best regards, Sarah
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Hi Sarah,
Apologies for the tardy response!
I do also remember in my searches over the years that I found another George Hill in same area who also died in same year (1903) which caused me some confusion for a while. ??? I think this George (rather than ours) may have been a grocer but I might be wrong. Would need to check.
These George Hill's are one & the same! After he left the merchant navy he became a Grocer. He lived quite seperately from the family for some reason! I don't know why!
In 1891, he is aged 68 & a Grocer living in Longbenton, Northumberland. 1901, he is in a Convalescent Home on Whitley Links, Whitley Bay aged 78 & a retired Sea Captain. He then ends up in Tynemouth Union Workhouse (probably the hospital part of it) before being transferred to the County Asylum at Morpeth, where he died. I have his death cert.
I do have a couple of mates certificate records and some info on George's mariner career but not in the latter years.
I have quite a lot of stuff regarding his whole seagoing career, even down to the types of cargoes he was transporting on some of his voyages!
The only concrete date for James Hill and Elsepth is the info from my Grandmother that they were married in Dunbar, East Lothian on 8th April 1803 and which I found a record to confirm.
They were indeed married on that date in Dunbar, East Lothian. The only children to the marriage that I know of at present are:
James Hill born between 1803-1811 (a probable son)
William Hill born 5th May 1805/chr 13th May 1805 at Dunbar to James Hill & Elizabeth Aitchison.
Ninian Hill born 18th July 1819 in Yetholm, Roxburghshire.
George Hill born 14th Dec 1821 in Yetholm, Roxburghshire.
I don't know if you have a picture of Isabella Parker, but I have one as well as one of George and Alice. I have 2 photos of George Hill (b. 1856) as well. Happy to share!
I don't have any photos of Isabella Parker at all. I have not good copies of a couple of photos of Alice Hill (Nee' Spink) but none of George Hill b1856. If I could have all four photos that you mention that would be wonderful!
As regards the PM system, under each persons avatar on the left hand side of the screen, there are two symbols. The first one (a person) is the link to the persons profile. The other one (a piece of paper (I think!)) is the PM symbol. Click on this under the person to whom you wish to PM (In this case me! ;D) and that will take you to the PM screen & it should be fairly straight forward from there! Hope these instructions help!
Kind regards
David