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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Leitrim => Topic started by: Surrey Genie on Saturday 01 October 16 22:05 BST (UK)
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My family name is McDermott, or I thought it was! ???
Up until very recently, my Irish family tree stopped at my grandfather, Thomas McDermott, born 1888, Carrick on Shannon, illegitmate son of Bridget. I could find nothing more. His birth was apparently not registered. But now Irish bmds are online and after a great deal of faff, I found Thomas's birth. His name wasn't McDermott at all, but Keegan. Well that came as a bit of a shock!
I can only think that he was baptised McDermott, presumably that being the name of his biological father. I have spent forever trying and failing to find his baptism.
I accept that there's not much anyone can do to help, but I would appreciate some thoughts on this.
Was it normal for a child to be baptised away from where he was born, and where his family were living?
In order to be given the father's name, would that father have to have been present at the baptism of an illegitimate child in 1888?
Wouldn't it have been very socially unacceptable for the mother to then marry someone else, i.e. NOT the father of that child? (Which his mother did!)
Why give the child the father's name if she wasn't going to marry him? In the context of the family, it only makes his illegitimacy even more obvious.
I am beyond confused.
Thanks for listening .........! ;)
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Are you sure all the records you found are for your Thomas McDermott? (it helps if you post the links to the information you already found so that we don't waste time trying to find the same records).
This birth registration (no idea if this is the one you found) is for a Thomas born 1888 Carrick on Shannon Workhouse but mother is Bridget Keegan (not McDermott)-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1888/02494/1925018.pdf
Previous post doesn't help figure out why you think Thomas was Keegan not McDermott-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=357286.msg2345189#msg2345189
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This her??
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Leitrim/Carrick_on_Shannon/Carrick_on_Shannon_Town/1484678/
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I think I see what you mean - the Delaney children's mother is Bridget Keegan - is that it?
... And Bridget Keegan married Patrick Delany.
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Delaney Bridget 28 Female Step Daughter Married -
McDermott Thomas 12 Male Grand Son
Delaney William 6 Male Grand Son
Delaney Margaret 4 Female
Delaney Patrick 2 Male Grand Son
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1901 census says Thomas McDermott (age 12 born Leitrim) was the grandson of William Gallagher (head of household), so how do you know that his mother was Bridget?
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This is one of those areas where Irish practice deviated from English law.
In law, illegitimate children had no fathers. They were "fillius nullis", which means literally a child of nobody. Therefore civil registrations did not show alleged or reputed fathers, and only the mother's surname will appear.
However, Irish social practice, as in so many things, departed from the English legal prescription. The Irish practice - not universal, but the majority of the time in my opinion - was that an illegitimate child was indeed named for the reputed or alleged father. For this reason, a father's name often does appear on baptismal records - but not always, and remember that a baptismal name is the Christian name, not a surname.
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My family were MacDermid.s from Scot but we got all kinds of spellings
One of my grandad cousins was born in Ireland. The parents never marriied but he was registered as mcdermond they returned to live in Scotland as a married couple !
And he and his sister were Macdermids on all records .very common name too.
There was also an uncle who lived in Ireland for several years ....so your Thomas.s father could have been a Scot ! Pure speculation of course .
Good luck with your search ...you can try to see if there is a court record for an affiliation if the mother tried to get maintenance
modify ,: I.ve just read the link to your other post
Looks like McDermott was her maiden name
She married Delaney ? So who was Keegan ? Did she marry twice ? Did Thomas have a middle name ?
My grandma's middle name on birth cert was her birth father.s surname but on baptism records it was different !
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".........Thomas McDermott, born 1888, Carrick on Shannon, illegitmate son of Bridget. I could find nothing more. His birth was apparently not registered. But now Irish bmds are online and after a great deal of faff, I found Thomas's birth. His name wasn't McDermott at all, but Keegan. Well that came as a bit of a shock!
I can only think that he was baptised McDermott, presumably that being the name of his biological father. I have spent forever trying and failing to find his baptism.............."
Why don't you post links to whatever you are talking about to save others trying to help forever trying and failing to find whatever you are talking about???
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Thanks for your replies.
Sorry I didn't expect anyone to research Thomas specifically - there is no question that he was my grandfather.
For those who need to know:
in 1901 he is Thomas McDermott age 12 in Carrick, son of Bridget Delaney (who is step daughter to William Gallagher, husband of Margaret).
Birth details of Bridget Delaney's children give her name as Keegan.
Bridget Keegan (SPINSTER) married Patrick Delaney in 1893
Bridget Keegan gave birth to Thomas Keegan in Carrick Workhouse on 16/10/1888.
Thomas's army records give Bridget as mother, living at the address Bridget Delaney is at in 1911, and Margaret as grandmother.
All I wanted was if anyone knew how fathers/baptisms/illegitimacy worked in 19th century Ireland. I know it's not a great state to be in these days, I could only imagine it was a lot worse back then.
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This is one of those areas where Irish practice deviated from English law.
In law, illegitimate children had no fathers. They were "fillius nullis", which means literally a child of nobody. Therefore civil registrations did not show alleged or reputed fathers, and only the mother's surname will appear.
However, Irish social practice, as in so many things, departed from the English legal prescription. The Irish practice - not universal, but the majority of the time in my opinion - was that an illegitimate child was indeed named for the reputed or alleged father. For this reason, a father's name often does appear on baptismal records - but not always, and remember that a baptismal name is the Christian name, not a surname.
That is very helpful, thanks. Am I misunderstanding this? Is the "alleged" father named (surname) anywhere on baptism records? If so, had the potential father no way of objecting to being named, even if he didn't think he was the father? Bet that caused some family feuds! Would it cause a mother to have her child baptised out of the area where she was known - where no questions might be asked?
On Thomas's marriage cert, his father is named as Thomas McDermott. I didn't read too much into that ..... I have other illegitimate sons who put their own names as "father" on marriage certs.
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Hello again,
In your earlier post, you mention that Bridget's mother was McDermott. Have you now found this to be untrue? Is there no mention of McDermott in the family before Thomas?
You have also referred to being baptised away from the area. What do you mean?
Thomas was born in Carrick on Shannon and lived there :-\
Are there any workhouse records?
Have you tried church records? Online records do not cover the years around his birth but they may be available elsewhere.
Heywood
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In 1901 Bridget has reverted to maiden name
My theory that Mr Keegan has died divorced or gone by 1888 so
Thomas was registered under birth father's name ..if she wanted to persue Mr McDermott for child support that would prove useful
The fact that Thomas still using that name in 1901 suggests contact may have been maintained.
Do try looking for affiliation order/bastardy or whatever they are called in Ireland
My Nana's gave birth father's full name and address
Weekly amount was payable til she was 14
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Hello again,
In your earlier post, you mention that Bridget's mother was McDermott. Have you now found this to be untrue? Is there no mention of McDermott in the family before Thomas?
You have also referred to being baptised away from the area. What do you mean?
Thomas was born in Carrick on Shannon and lived there :-\
Are there any workhouse records?
Have you tried church records? Online records do not cover the years around his birth but they may be available elsewhere.
Heywood
Yes, I had originally assumed that being illegitimate and being Bridget's son, Bridget's maiden name was McDermott. That is why we couldn't find a birth registration for Thomas - because we were looking for the wrong surname. There are no other McDermott's connected to the family as far as I know. I have no bleep-bleep idea who "McDermott" was or where the name has come from.
Thomas was registered as Keegan. Sometime between birth and 12 years old, he morphs into Thomas McDermott.
My parents and all my many Irish aunts and uncles are now dead, but they talked long and hard about their Irish-ness. I've never heard the name Keegan before and I'm sure the family knew nothing about this.
I have contacted parishes in Boyle, (where Bridget settled), Carrick, the Carrick History Society and the main library in Leitrim. They have all been incredibly helpful, but found nothing at all.
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In 1901 Bridget has reverted to maiden name
My theory that me Keegan has died or gone by 1888 so
Thomas was registered under birth father's name ..if she wanted to persue him for child support that would prove useful
The fact that Thomas still using that name in 1901 suggests contact may have been maintained.
Do try looking for affiliation order/bastardy or whatever they are called in Ireland
My Nana's gave birth father's full name and address
Weekly amount was payable til she was 14
Bridget was married in 1901 = Bridget Delaney, married to Patrick.
I did consider that she had married a McDermott who had then died, but she marries as Keegan, Spinster.
PLEASE IGNORE MY EARLIER POST- I DIDN'T HAVE THIS INFORMATION THEN SO IT IS NO LONGER RELEVANT. Thanks.
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http://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0152 Only published online to 1883
https://familysearch.org/wiki/en/Kiltoghert_Civil_Parish,_County_Leitrim_Genealogy shows later baptisms from FH library. Are you near such a library to order and view microfilms? Perhaps it won't help but in the old days, I viewed several parishes in this way.
Have you found a birth/ baptism record for Bridget or a marriage record for her mother? I just wonder what Margaret's name was before Gallagher.
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No, I haven't found a birth for Bridget, or a marriage for Margaret.
I'm assuming (probably a mistake! ;) ) that as Bridget is William Gallagher's stepdaughter, and Thomas names a Margaret as his grandmother on his army records, that Margaret must have been previously married to a Keegan, thus having a daughter Bridget Keegan. William Gallagher being Margaret's second husband. The complicated family dynamics are not helping!
Bridget names her father as William Keegan on her marriage registration. She was born in 1872, so was only 16 when Thomas was born. I'm surprised she was allowed to keep the baby.
Bridget says she was born in Sligo, but as I've found that many offsprings' birth places on census are the same as the parents' birth places, whether the offspring were actually born there or not, I'm not taking that as gospel.
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William, as father, may have come from William her stepfather.
Presumably, she kept Thomas because she had her mother's support :-\
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I am sure I saw Bridget's marriage earlier, but I can't see it now. Where did she marry and is there an occupation for her father?
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sorry b; reread
my comment about child support may still be relevant
even tho I thought Bridgett had other keegan children
once she married Married Pat Delaney and had her own children she wouldnt have been entitled to child support
It would have been important for Thomas to use his paternal name so bridgett could pass as a widow as rather than a single mother .
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William, as father, may have come from William her stepfather.
Presumably, she kept Thomas because she had her mother's support :-\
Yes, quite possible that William was her stepfather. Hard to tell without knowing when her mother married him, or how long he had been in her life
I assume she had her mother's support, but why then was Thomas born in the workhouse? I know workhouses sometimes doubled as hospitals (in England anyway) but for childbirth??? The people in Ireland checked the workhouse records for me, none of the rest of her family were in the workhouse at the time.
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sorry b; reread
my comment about child support may still be relevant
even tho I thought Bridgett had other keegan children
once she married Married Pat Delaney and had her own children she wouldnt have been entitled to child support
It would have been important for Thomas to use his paternal name so bridgett could pass as a widow as rather than a single mother .
Pretending to be a widow would make sense.
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I just meant that she had combined her stepfather's first name with her own surname to 'invent' a father.
There is also the possibility that she made up the name 'Keegan' to have her child but then she would have married as McDermott to give status to Thomas, I suppose. It is difficult for you.
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I think your reading too much into the illigimate bit.
Don't judge earlier generations by later ones.
From what I can see its wasn't as bad to be a unmarried mother in 1888 as it would be in 1958, not saying it was easy but there doesn't appear to be the need to hide it at all possible costs as there was when the RC Church got its thightest ever grip on the country after 1922.
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The Workhouse in Ck is still the Hospital today!
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As previously posted, Thomas Keegan was born on 16 October 1888. For information, just to be aware that a transcribed record for Kiltoghert RC parish shows a Thomas Keegan was baptised on 17 October 1888, the mother was given as Bridget Keegan, the father was given as Thady Keegan. Just a possibility.
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Gallagher William 65 Male Head of Family
Gallagher Margaret 65 Female Wife
Delaney Bridget 28 Female Step Daughter
So, IF Bridget is Step Daughter her mother must have been Margaret (above)..... Was she a Mrs Delaney first??
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sorry b; reread
my comment about child support may still be relevant
even tho I thought Bridgett had other keegan children
once she married Married Pat Delaney and had her own children she wouldnt have been entitled to child support
It would have been important for Thomas to use his paternal name so bridgett could pass as a widow as rather than a single mother .
Pretending to be a widow would make sense.
A 16 year old Widow??
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There is no evidence that she assumes widowhood.
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As previously posted, Thomas Keegan was born on 16 October 1888. For information, just to be aware that a transcribed record for Kiltoghert RC parish shows a Thomas Keegan was baptised on 17 October 1888, the mother was given as Bridget Keegan, the father was given as Thady Keegan. Just a possibility.
Indeed a very good possibility!!
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As previously posted, Thomas Keegan was born on 16 October 1888. For information, just to be aware that a transcribed record for Kiltoghert RC parish shows a Thomas Keegan was baptised on 17 October 1888, the mother was given as Bridget Keegan, the father was given as Thady Keegan. Just a possibility.
That is very interesting!!! Thanks for that! Now I must go out. I'm even more confused than I was before! LOL
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As previously posted, Thomas Keegan was born on 16 October 1888. For information, just to be aware that a transcribed record for Kiltoghert RC parish shows a Thomas Keegan was baptised on 17 October 1888, the mother was given as Bridget Keegan, the father was given as Thady Keegan. Just a possibility.
I missed your post gaffy- good find :)
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On your other thread you have...
Starting from the top:
Margaret McDermott (married name) born 1833 Sligo, was widowed and remarried William Gallagher, born 1830 Sligo; a glazier in Carrick on Shannon in 1901.
Margaret's daughter Bridget McDermott, born 1873, had an illegitimate son, Thomas McDermott - born Boyle, Roscommon in 1889, (birth unfortunately not registered).......
Now you've a Thomas, born 1888 in Ck on S!
What FACTS have you that this Thomas from Ck on S is correct??
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Sorry if I've missed this but
Where is Bridget and Thomas in 1911.
Is there a census record where Bridget Delenay claims Thomas McDermott is her son.
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"....can only think that he was baptised McDermott, presumably that being the name of his biological father..."
".....Margaret McDermott (married name) born 1833 Sligo, was widowed and remarried William Gallagher, born 1830 Sligo; a glazier in Carrick on Shannon in 1901......."
So she would have been a McDermott!! Not sure Why you think "that he was baptised McDermott, presumably that being the name of his biological father..."
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Thank goodness someone else is questioning if Thomas Keegan is the correct person- I queried this in reply #5
1901 census says Thomas McDermott (age 12 born Leitrim) was the grandson of William Gallagher (head of household), so how do you know that his mother was Bridget?
From both your threads it seems as though you might be quick to assume too much and start searching for the wrong people.
So, you have the 1901 census where your Thomas McDermott, age 12, born Co. Leitrim, is the grandson of a William Gallagher. There is no indication from this who his parents actually are.
So, please answer my original question- how do you know that his mother was Bridget?
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See replies 9 and 13 for information re Thomas and Bridget and the earlier assumptions re Margaret 'McDermott'
S G explains there.
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Bridget is in Boyle in 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Roscommon/Boyle_Urban/The_Green_or_Church_Street/779155/
Thomas 1911- Carrick on Shannon
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Leitrim/Carrick_on_Shannon/Carrick_on_Shannon_Town/652817/
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Thomas McDermott in 1911?
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Leitrim/Carrick_on_Shannon/Carrick_on_Shannon_Town/652817
William & Maggie Gallagher in 1911-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Leitrim/Carrick_on_Shannon/Carrick_on_Shannon_Town/652826
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Margaret Gallagher (Widow McDermott) might possibly have just passed him off as her Nephew....
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Margaret Gallagher (Widow McDermott) might possibly have just passed him off as her Nephew....
Margaret's previous name has not yet been determined.
In the census 1901 you posted, Bridget is stepdaughter to William Gallagher and Thomas and the Delaney children are grandsons.
Thomas gives Bridget as his mother in later records.
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Margaret McDermott (married name) born 1833 Sligo, was widowed and remarried William Gallagher, born 1830 Sligo; a glazier in Carrick on Shannon in 1901.
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The above was from...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=357286.msg2345189#msg2345189
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This was explained earlier in reply 13 by SG and the reference to 1901 is census - I presume. No marriage yet found for William Gallagher and Margaret ?
Yes, I had originally assumed that being illegitimate and being Bridget's son, Bridget's maiden name was McDermott. That is why we couldn't find a birth registration for Thomas - because we were looking for the wrong surname. There are no other McDermott's connected to the family as far as I know. I have no bleep-bleep idea who "McDermott" was or where the name has come from.
Thomas was registered as Keegan. Sometime between birth and 12 years old, he morphs into Thomas McDermott.
My parents and all my many Irish aunts and uncles are now dead, but they talked long and hard about their Irish-ness. I've never heard the name Keegan before and I'm sure the family knew nothing about this.
I have contacted parishes in Boyle, (where Bridget settled), Carrick, the Carrick History Society and the main library in Leitrim. They have all been incredibly helpful, but found nothing at all.
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And in 1911 they claim to be married 30 years with no children.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Leitrim/Carrick_on_Shannon/Carrick_on_Shannon_Town/652826/
Does appear to filled out bu the lodger though.
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1911 census says William & Maggie Gallagher married 30 years (no children mentioned on transcription but 'none' on original image)-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Leitrim/Carrick_on_Shannon/Carrick_on_Shannon_Town/652826
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I think I saw William died later in 1911 but couldn't find a death for Margaret.
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Its going to take me a while to go through all the posts since I've been out, but to recap on the facts as I have them
A few years ago, my aunt (Thomas's daughter) went to Ireland and tried to get his birth certificate. She was told he was not registered. She found his baptism record (no idea where but at the time I assumed it was Carrick, that being where Thomas lived his whole life and where I knew my aunt was staying). She told me then that she had discovered he was illegitimate - she was shocked, she obviously had no idea, but she did not mention the name Keegan, so I assumed he was baptised in the name McDermott, but his illegitmacy was somewhere on his baptism record.
in 1901 he is Thomas McDermott age 12 in Carrick, son of Bridget Delaney (who is step daughter to William Gallagher, husband of Margaret).
Birth details of Bridget Delaney's children give her name as Keegan.
Bridget Keegan (SPINSTER) married Patrick Delaney in 1893
Bridget Keegan gave birth to Thomas Keegan in Carrick Workhouse on 16/10/1888.
(Thomas was born in 1888 according to his family and his gravestone)
Thomas's army records give Bridget as mother, living at The Green, Boyle, and Margaret as grandmother. I remember my father mentioning Bridie, his grandmother.
Dated Jan 1908, they give Thomas's address as Kiltoghert, Carrick and his age as 19 yrs 10 mths
In 1911, Thomas is in the army, and Bridget is a widow, still on The Green, Boyle, Roscommon.
So far, everything fits perfectly.
This Thomas on census says he was born in Boyle - that is where his mother lived. He married and lived his whole life in Carrick - his obituary says he was born in Carrick.
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I think I saw William died later in 1911 but couldn't find a death for Margaret.
That is correct. I haven't found a death for Margaret either.
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As previously posted, Thomas Keegan was born on 16 October 1888. For information, just to be aware that a transcribed record for Kiltoghert RC parish shows a Thomas Keegan was baptised on 17 October 1888, the mother was given as Bridget Keegan, the father was given as Thady Keegan. Just a possibility.
Indeed a very good possibility!!
This is a surprise - can it be a coincidence? A whopping great big one if it is.
But what does it mean? If this is MY Thomas, then there is an even bigger question mark as to how he became a McDermott!
I have no idea what to think now. Hallmark, come back!
PS What kind of name is Thady??
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You need to see the baptism record your Aunt saw.
She went looking for a Thomas McDermott and it sounds like she found one, so you would from that assume his father is McDermott, but you need to see it. Otherwise it's all speculation.
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You need to see the baptism record your Aunt saw.
She went looking for a Thomas McDermott and it sounds like she found one, so you would from that assume his father is McDermott, but you need to see it. Otherwise it's all speculation.
I know............... it's the biggest genealogical headache I've come across so far, and I've had a few! The trouble with this one is, it's very close to home! My entire identity feels a little uncertain now.
The Thady Keegan father thing is bothering me.
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sianne ;
plenty of time by1911 for margaret to have been married to W>Gallager
If Im following correctly she had Bridgett as an unmarried woman was that Keegen or macdermott??
And she'd married before her Gallagher wedding
So Bridgett was maybe alternately named after her birth mother or step father
and Thomas took either her maiden name or name of 1st husband
its very interesting ..I cant do the detective work on Irish records but am in awe of all your findings so far .
AS AN EXAMPLE of alternate names
My own g.uncle was born in Ireland Belfast 1906
..I.ve not seen the birthor baptism originals
His sister birth 1910 in Scotland cert says
july 22 1909 mary agnes McDermid ILLEGIT
Their mother was Celia Alfreda Robson domestic servant
father Duncan Mcdermid mercantile clerk
both parents were present at the Glasgow birth reg
address was given as the macdermid family home 92 River road Carmyle
The registrar knew the couple were unmarried but maybe the family thought they HAD married in Ireland
Neither children ever used their mothers surname .
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sianne ;
plenty of time by1911 for margaret to have been married to W>Gallager
If Im following correctly she had Bridgett as an unmarried woman was that Keegen or macdermott??
And she'd married before her Gallagher wedding
So Bridgett was maybe alternately named after her birth mother or step father
and Thomas took either her maiden name or name of 1st husband
its very interesting ..I cant do the detective work on Irish records but am in awe of all your findings so far .
AS AN EXAMPLE of alternate names
My own g.uncle was born in Ireland Belfast 1906
..I.ve not seen the birthor baptism originals
His sister birth 1910 in Scotland cert says
july 22 1909 mary agnes McDermid ILLEGIT
Their mother was Celia Alfreda Robson domestic servant
father Duncan Mcdermid mercantile clerk
both parents were present at the Glasgow birth reg
address was given as the macdermid family home 92 River road Carmyle
The registrar knew the couple were unmarried but maybe the family thought they HAD married in Ireland
Neither children ever used their mothers surname .
Margaret is the grandmother - mother of Bridget (or so it seems) and presumably she was Margaret Keegan (widowed or unmarried) when she married William Gallagher.
Bridget had Thomas when she was 16.
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There's one BIG thing that doesn't add up here.
My father knew his grandmother Bridget - I believe she died in the 1950's.
So he, and his siblings must have known her name was Delaney and that she had other children. So surely, they must have known that their father was illegitimate ............. unless she told them she had been widowed.
My aunt that went searching was the very youngest in the family. I guess it's possible that she was never told the truth, if the others knew.
I'm tying myself in ever more complicated knots now.
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"....Margaret is the grandmother - mother of Bridget (or so it seems) and presumably she was Margaret Keegan (widowed or unmarried) when she married William Gallagher....."
So you don't have that Marriage either!!
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So...both are from Sligo, married 30 years in 1911, look for Marriage 1881???
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I've looked, and looked. Have so far found nothing that fitted. I presume they married somewhere between Sligo and Carrick, but obvously they could have married anywhere.
Same thing with Bridget's birth, c 1872 Sligo. Couldn't find that either.
Of course, not all records are available online yet
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Only one Thady Keegan in 1901 - age 39, born Cavan, living in Cavan.
Wife Maggie - interestingly, born in Leitrim.
No children called Thomas though and all their children born in Cavan
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If you look at things... Bridget was only 16 when she had Thomas.
Much easier for Thomas to be introduced to everyone as Margaret's Nephew! Family could all live together, no illegitimate child...... no stigma!
Yes he is on the Census BUT under his "accepted" name, there may be no paperwork other than the Birth Cert in Workhouse.
All Widow Margaret had to do was introduce him as part of her family.... her "Nephew".
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Hi Hallmark,
I don't understand that about nephew. He is a grandson in the census. There doesn't seem to be a problem with accepting him as Bridget's son.
SG,
When you contacted the various bodies in Carrick, was that re McDermott or Keegan? I wonder if you could get details from the baptism re sponsors and residence?
Heywood
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Carrick on Shannon is in the RC Parish of Kiltoghart. Yes?
RootsIreland has baptisms up to 1899, it's subscription but they have a €10 for 24 hours.
Maybe someone already has a sub...before any money is spent....
Just saying.....
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Hi Hallmark,
I don't understand that about nephew. He is a grandson in the census. There doesn't seem to be a problem with accepting him as Bridget's son.
SG,
When you contacted the various bodies in Carrick, was that re McDermott or Keegan? I wonder if you could get details from the baptism re sponsors and residence?
Heywood
Introduce him as Nephew to people...... he wouldn't be an illegitimate child of Bridget's then!
I know there is no problem on Census but how else was he to be brought home?? An illegitimate child? or "as a relation of Margaret"??
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Hi Hallmark,
I don't understand that about nephew. He is a grandson in the census. There doesn't seem to be a problem with accepting him as Bridget's son.
SG,
When you contacted the various bodies in Carrick, was that re McDermott or Keegan? I wonder if you could get details from the baptism re sponsors and residence?
Heywood
I explained the situation and they searched under both McDermott and Keegan. The parish at Kitoghert were amazing, they looked and looked but could find no baptism. I cant understand how they didn't find the Thady Keegan one.
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Carrick on Shannon is in the RC Parish of Kiltoghart. Yes?
RootsIreland has baptisms up to 1899, it's subscription but they have a €10 for 24 hours.
Maybe someone already has a sub...before any money is spent....
Just saying.....
I've been there ..........!!! I got a pile of info on other bits of the family but nothing for McDermott.
Funny thing though - for birth sponsors for Thomas's wife's side of the family - the same names come up over and over again - but no McDermotts at all.
Thomas's obituary - long and full of names that sent cards and telegrams - including a James Gallagher from Carrick and a William Delaney and Margaret Delaney from Boyle, but not a single McDermott outside of the immediate family. It's the one name that never appears!
Thomas was accepted on one side of the family, but presumably, not on the other side. Otherwise, surely a McDermott grandparent, aunt, uncle or even half brothers or sisters would have emerged somewhere.
It's a conspiracy >:( ::)
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Hi Hallmark,
I don't understand that about nephew. He is a grandson in the census. There doesn't seem to be a problem with accepting him as Bridget's son.
SG,
When you contacted the various bodies in Carrick, was that re McDermott or Keegan? I wonder if you could get details from the baptism re sponsors and residence?
Heywood
I explained the situation and they searched under both McDermott and Keegan. The parish at Kitoghert were amazing, they looked and looked but could find no baptism. I cant understand how they didn't find the Thady Keegan one.
but your Aunt wasn't looking for a Keegan.
This doesn't add up, is there anyone you could ask about what she found and where.
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Hi Hallmark,
I don't understand that about nephew. He is a grandson in the census. There doesn't seem to be a problem with accepting him as Bridget's son.
SG,
When you contacted the various bodies in Carrick, was that re McDermott or Keegan? I wonder if you could get details from the baptism re sponsors and residence?
Heywood
I explained the situation and they searched under both McDermott and Keegan. The parish at Kitoghert were amazing, they looked and looked but could find no baptism. I cant understand how they didn't find the Thady Keegan one.
But now you have a date.
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".....The parish at Kitoghert were amazing, they looked and looked but could find no baptism. I cant understand how they didn't find the Thady Keegan one....."
Could be that they were Baptized in Co. Cavan??
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I assume she had her mother's support, but why then was Thomas born in the workhouse? I know workhouses sometimes doubled as hospitals (in England anyway) but for childbirth???
There is some conceptual gap at work here. There were lots of births in workhouses - as you say, they had medical facilities. There was previously a birth register specifically for Wexford Workhouse on the web (can now only be located using wayback machine). Most of the births were illegitimate, but some were not.
SG - did you ever the address the point that in a previous thread you stated that William Gallagher and Margaret Keegan were married in 1901 in Carrick-on-Shannon. What was the basis for that statement? Perhaps you just meant to say that they were married by 1901 as shown on the census, while many of us read it as saying that they are actually married in 1901?
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http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/niah/search.jsp?type=record&county=LE®no=30813043
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This is one of those areas where Irish practice deviated from English law.
In law, illegitimate children had no fathers. They were "fillius nullis", which means literally a child of nobody. Therefore civil registrations did not show alleged or reputed fathers, and only the mother's surname will appear.
However, Irish social practice, as in so many things, departed from the English legal prescription. The Irish practice - not universal, but the majority of the time in my opinion - was that an illegitimate child was indeed named for the reputed or alleged father. For this reason, a father's name often does appear on baptismal records - but not always, and remember that a baptismal name is the Christian name, not a surname.
That is very helpful, thanks. Am I misunderstanding this? Is the "alleged" father named (surname) anywhere on baptism records? If so, had the potential father no way of objecting to being named, even if he didn't think he was the father? Bet that caused some family feuds! Would it cause a mother to have her child baptised out of the area where she was known - where no questions might be asked?
My point is that civil registration and baptism had different rules/goals.
For civil registration, they did not want to know or record any alleged father's name, as legally there was no father. I have seen many a registration where the registrar either started to or had finished writing in the putative father's name, only to then strike it out on realizing that the birth was illegitimate.
For baptism, however, I think they wanted to know the fathers name - in my experience, the alleged father's name is there more often than not. And no, the alleged father had no way to know or object. Also, remember, baptism is a sacrament, there was and is a heavy obligation to tell the truth.
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SG - did you ever specifically check for surviving workhouse records, presumably with the county council?In some cases admissions registers, and birth registers survive.
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I assume she had her mother's support, but why then was Thomas born in the workhouse? I know workhouses sometimes doubled as hospitals (in England anyway) but for childbirth???
There is some conceptual gap at work here. There were lots of births in workhouses - as you say, they had medical facilities. There was previously a birth register specifically for Wexford Workhouse on the web (can now only be located using wayback machine). Most of the births were illegitimate, but some were not.
SG - did you ever the address the point that in a previous thread you stated that William Gallagher and Margaret Keegan were married in 1901 in Carrick-on-Shannon. What was the basis for that statement? Perhaps you just meant to say that they were married by 1901 as shown on the census, while many of us read it as saying that they are actually married in 1901?
Sorry, yes, I meant they were married by 1901. Apparently circa 1881 but marriage hasnt been found
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SG - did you ever specifically check for surviving workhouse records, presumably with the county council?In some cases admissions registers, and birth registers survive.
Yes, the workhouse minutes were checked. There was no additional information on the birth.
Hallmark - thanks for the link - it still looks a forbidding sort of building.
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[/quote]
but your Aunt wasn't looking for a Keegan.
This doesn't add up, is there anyone you could ask about what she found and where.
[/quote]
Sadly not. All my Irish aunts and uncles have now died. I don't know any relatives still living in Ireland, though there must be some.
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Yes, the workhouse minutes were checked. There was no additional information on the birth.
Hallmark - thanks for the link - it still looks a forbidding sort of building.
They all look alike! There were over a hundred, all to the same design, though type of stone and finish could vary.
As for minutes - these were often kept, but I was thinking more of a dedicated admissions register or hospital register? (which often don't survive, while the board minutes may).
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Just to further muddy the waters, Familysearch, confirmed by Irishgenealogy show that a
William Gallagher and Margaret McDermott had at least two children in the Letterkenny Union area in Co. Donegal in 1868 and 1871. Attached is link for birth of Patrick Gallagher in January 1871
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03310/2213175.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03310/2213175.pdf)
Probably not connected to the OP in my opinion, but thought I should mention it...
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Nothing showing for Carrick on Shannon Workhouse as far as admission books so it's possible they don't survive-
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/CarrickOnShannon/
Mentioned in Leitrim Resources at the top of this board
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Just to further muddy the waters, Familysearch, confirmed by Irishgenealogy show that a
William Gallagher and Margaret McDermott had at least two children in the Letterkenny Union area in Co. Donegal in 1868 and 1871. Attached is link for birth of Patrick Gallagher in January 1871
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03310/2213175.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03310/2213175.pdf)
Probably not connected to the OP in my opinion, but thought I should mention it...
I don't think it can get much muddier! ;D
Everything is of interest. Every McDermott is of interest. I went through all the Gallagher births in Leitrim - just in case, but there was none with William as father. If they married c 1880 then Margaret would have been 40-odd, probably past child-bearing. Chances are, William wasn't living there with his first wife, assuming there was a first wife.
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Surrey Genie, probably clutching at straws here, but since boarders are sometimes related, is there any mileage in the Thomas Hanley who was living with the Gallaghers in 1911? For example, a William Keegan married an Anne Hannelly in the Castlerea area of Co. Roscommon in 1866 and had several children including a Bridget in 1875:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1875/03097/2135713.pdf
While this doesn't fit with Bridget's stated birthplace in the 1901 and 1911 census returns, the father's name does fit (according to Bridget's 1893 marriage). I'm just wondering if Margaret Gallagher might have been a 'Hanley' aunt of Bridget, the descriptor 'step daughter' was sometimes quite liberal in its application (especially if William and Margaret Gallagher weren't married, which is a possibility).
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Surrey Genie, probably clutching at straws here, but since boarders are sometimes related, is there any mileage in the Thomas Hanley who was living with the Gallaghers in 1911? For example, a William Keegan married an Anne Hannelly in the Castlerea area of Co. Roscommon in 1866 and had several children including a Bridget in 1875:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1875/03097/2135713.pdf
While this doesn't fit with Bridget's stated birthplace in the 1901 and 1911 census returns, the father's name does fit (according to Bridget's 1893 marriage). I'm just wondering if Margaret Gallagher might have been a 'Hanley' aunt of Bridget, the descriptor 'step daughter' was sometimes quite liberal in its application (especially if William and Margaret Gallagher weren't married, which is a possibility).
That is a really good thought, thank you! Birth places on Irish censuses aren't reliable anyway. .................. And straws are all I have.
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So where is anyone buried??
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Well ............ William Gallagher is buried in Carrick, as is Thomas McDermott.
Bridget is in Boyle, Roscommon.
I haven't found Margaret's burial yet. It's after 1911, she outlived William.
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Nothing on any g/stones?
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Found no relevant gravestones either.
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It would be interesting if you found any mcdermott matches in DNA
Or if any macdermott
Discover links to Delaneys
Or Keegens .I have an unexplained Keenan match but their tree is closed
I like the lodger explanation Bridget or thomas could have been adopted of course .sorry thread is very long i cant remember if you said youd seen birth certs.
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TADHG, genitive Taidhg, Teige, Teague, (Thaddeaus, Thaddeus, Thady, Thade, Timothy, Tim); an ancient and very common Irish name, meaning 'poet' or 'philosopher'; still found in every part of Ireland, but now generally anglicised Timothy.