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Research in Other Countries => Immigrants & Emigrants - General => Topic started by: brigidmac on Saturday 01 October 16 23:08 BST (UK)

Title: LOVE/HART/McKAY descendantsin Scotland New Zealand +elsewhere
Post by: brigidmac on Saturday 01 October 16 23:08 BST (UK)
 I have been trying to work back through my grandma's family tree  that I was given
I know that her mother Mary Hart Stevenson was still alive in 1957 cos I have a photo


 she celebrated golden wedding with ex coal miner Charles Stevenson both born 1878


 Their marriage cert says they were living at green...?? St and Cantyne ? St
shettleston
    His parents were William walker Stevenson and Mary Blane

Mary Hart McKay.s parents were.       Donald mckay            Margaret ms Love

Both born around 1850 according to family tree .but that had her mother's name as Mary


Which led me to a possible  marriage and inbirth in  NZ ....  .so there is a post on forum there

I have now found some information about Margaret Love .she married Donald Mckay in june 1878

He was an engine keeper son of another Donald mckay engine keeper too and Mary Hart

She was daughter of William ?  Ileg  Margaret love  both deceased
witnesses Isabelle love Dougal mckay


I can't link Mary Hart mckay  born 1878 !  and Margaret mckay b @1850 to earlier censuses

Can't read Mary Hart Stevenson place of birth in 1911 census but she settled in Shettleston with her husband and 4 daughters including my BMW

Any help gratefully received. ...I've dismissed some of the censuses because father's name does not correspond but maybe he went by middle name ?? 

Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Saturday 01 October 16 23:15 BST (UK)
The NZ post has been transferred to Lanarkshire

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=756758.msg6066854#msg6066854

I think Margaret love may have been from Ayrshire  a 1871 census has a 19 year old servant in lands but born in Ayrshire and she is living with her widowed mother Eliza also born  Stewerton Ayrshire but other siblings born lancs

In same household is her grandmother margaret McKie   could be related to our McKay's I've not seen original

Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: Rosinish on Sunday 02 October 16 00:02 BST (UK)
1881 census will give you where each were born (County) & possibly an exact place in said County?

Annie
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: Rosinish on Sunday 02 October 16 00:04 BST (UK)
Is it possible to upload images of docs. with parts you can't decipher please but leave some extra info. attached for comparison?

Annie
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Sunday 02 October 16 00:14 BST (UK)
I don't think e FindMyPast and Scotland speople sites let me down load images

I can't copy bits sorry .

Couldn't find them on 1881 census

There is a Mary McKay aged 71 widow living with coal miner son Donald age 34

On 1891 census but so many Mary Margaret and Donald's in shettleston I can't sort them out

I.ve been looking for marriages and births but don't know where best to start .

Past bedtime ...now ..hope to come back to it with a clearer head ...soon
Thanks Annie
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: Rosinish on Sunday 02 October 16 01:32 BST (UK)
Bridgid,

Sorry if i sound bad but you need to start somewhere on the ladder which gives "definite" info. to begin with.

You can't follow a tree half way up the ladder without the facts & sources matching I'm afraid.

You need births which give marriage details of parents, from there you can search census' for their places of birth & ditto with each.

You cannot build on your tree with transcriptions although they are a terrific help.

You need to compare dates/ages/occupations/areas etc. to build a picture.

Annie

Added, Forget FindMyPast & others regarding genuine copies of anything as the only place to find that crucial info. is scotlandspeople but by all means use any other sites which are free, for a guide regarding possible dates/areas etc.
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Sunday 02 October 16 06:49 BST (UK)
Thanks Annie

On the other hand I can't pay for loads of originals til I've narrowed it down to probables

I haven't been adding my sources to FindMyPast tree and now realise I.m going to have to go back thru searches and saved images one by one

Mary Hart McKay s marriage to Charles Stevenson in 1904 was an orig
Their children's names:.   John mckay.   Margaret Love Mckay.   
Mary Hart Mckay and isabella give extra confirmation of grandparents names

1878 marriage of Margaret Love and Donald Mckay: lists her father as deceased
 so I can't look for William  on 1881 census

Donald Mckay was.aged 24 mother was Mary McKay ms Hart
 
 the census Donald was orig 1911 but the transcription for wife mary.sr birthplace was just Lanarkshire  can't read the orig  I will get a computer lesson this week and ask about copy paste words from document s
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 02 October 16 21:54 BST (UK)
No sign of a Mary b. 1878 in the likely entry for the family in 1881. All the McKays showing as born in Shettleston, Lanarkshire:

Donald McKay 26 engine man
Margaret McKay 24
Donald McKay 2
Isabella McKay 9 Months
Peter Liddle 27 boarder

Address: Green Street, Bothwell, Lanarkshire

There is this family tree on a/try (you needs a subs to view it) http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/86318518/person/46569043832/facts  This shows the birth of Mary Hart McKay c. 1883 in Shettleston.

That fits with the family's entry for 1891:

Donald McKay 36 Colliery Engineman - Winding
Margaret McKay 34
Isabella McKay 10
Mary McKay 8
Margaret McKay 6
Helen McKay 4
John McKay 1

Address: 24 Baird's Sq, Bothwell

Monica
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 02 October 16 22:09 BST (UK)
This family tree here http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/73457229/person/48275468466/facts gives Donald McKay (husband of Margaret Love) and his birth as being on 25 June 1854 in Shettleston. No original sources given. Some of his siblings' birth show on this index here www.rootschat.com/links/01ilz/

1861 census for the Mckays in Shettleston:

Donald Mckay 38 engine worker b. Shettleston
Mary Mckay 37 b. Eastwood, Renfrewshire
Margaret Mckay 11
Ellen Mckay 9
Agness Mckay 8
Donald Mckay 6
Grace Mckay 4
Dougald Mckay 3
Mary Mckay 1

Address: 5 Threestone Hill

Monica
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 02 October 16 22:29 BST (UK)
Margaret Love, wife of Donald McKay. Possibly her birth was illegitimate? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQDS-GTL

A sister, Isabella? Born in 1860 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQD9-YVM Could she be the witness to Margaret's wedding in 1878? Also a John https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQQC-H62

1871 Census for this group:

Margaret Love 35 Bleachfield Worker b. Lightburn, Lanarkshire
Jane Love 33 brother (maybe James?) collier b. Glasgow
Margaret Love 14 daughter b. Shettleston
Isabella Love 11 daughter b. Shettleston
John Love 4 son b. Shettleston

Address: Lightburn Rd, Shettleston

Monica
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Sunday 02 October 16 22:41 BST (UK)
Thanks Monica .I hadn't found the 1861 one and there were too many possibilities for the others .

It fits with Donald following in his father's footsteps and becoming an engine keeper son of Donald Mckay and Mary ms Hart. Sorry can't decipher address

Aged 24 on marriage cert Mary love aged 21 12/06/1878 she was a steam loom weaver
Daughter of William love deceased ..servant parish of Duran +Margaret Love

witnesses Isabelle love and Dougal McKay



Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 02 October 16 22:43 BST (UK)
I have just modified my last post and added an 1871 census entry for who I think is Margaret Love's family (don't think Dad likely features really...).

Monica
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Sunday 02 October 16 22:47 BST (UK)
Posted at same time !

I.m going to have to double-check with the family tree .

My cousin thought our grandparents were cousins...they often attended family weddings but I believe the kinship was at a more distant level

Apparently we are related to the Bowes Lyons further back on this line !

Thanks so much for these possibilities..it's looking mandatory tho Donald and Mary L were born later than the  1850.' Date on our  old tree
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 02 October 16 22:55 BST (UK)
I will leave you with this possible 1861 census entry. I think this might be young Margaret Love and sister Isabella with maternal grandmother, maternal step grandfather and mother Margaret. Gets confusing sometimes with lots of different surnames. The surname for your Margaret of Muir is likely that of reputed father. Quite common for illegitimate children to use surnames on and off of reputed fathers.

Wm Manners 55 coal miner b. Barony, Lanarkshire
Elizabeth Manners 65 b. Old Monkland, Lanarkshire
Margaret Manners 25 Stepdaughter agricultural lab b. Barony, Lanarkshire
Margaret Muir 4 grandchild b. Barony
Isabela Lutch 8 Momths grandchild b. Barony

Address: Lightburn Village, Shettleston

Monica

Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Sunday 02 October 16 22:56 BST (UK)
I wondered why you thought Mary was illegitimate but realised my orig post had illegal after father's name ...I meant illegible!!

I.ve altered it now .

You are so fast with info I can't keep up !

Thanks for these transcriptions on Scotland speople i paid for some originals but can't always decipher
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Sunday 02 October 16 22:59 BST (UK)
Very probable .on marriage cert her address was 21 looked like lighthouse but could be light burn ! Well done !

Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 02 October 16 22:59 BST (UK)
It is not Mary who I think is illegitimate, but Margaret Love b. 1857, wife of Donald McKay, daughter of Margaret Love.

Monica  :)
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Sunday 02 October 16 23:08 BST (UK)
Oh I see !

I.ll also need to get a map out to see how far Bothwell is .

I.d better leave it for tonight and come back to it with a clear head and written notes . unfortunately I.ve got quite a busy week.

Plenty to be going on with ..can't thank you enough monica and Annie
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Monday 03 October 16 07:59 BST (UK)
The Love census es are spot on

I.m liking the look of the Bothwell ones just worried that Mary aged 8 in 1891 doesn't fit with the 1871 birth date I had .I.d better check where I got that info from .
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 03 October 16 19:43 BST (UK)
I think Mary Hart McKay/Stevenson's death shows in Glasgow (South) in 1965. Her age at death is down as 82. From this, a birth year of c. 1882/3 matching what details we have now and census entry for her with family. You can view this image online on SP to verify all the details.

Monica
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Monday 03 October 16 22:56 BST (UK)
That would explain why I didn't find Mary Hart McKay in searches for birth 1878 +3 years !
She was definitely alive when I was a little girl  tho I never met her .

I don't know where the photo of 5 generations was taken ..they lived in Glasgow
My grandparents were already in Plymouth and my sister was born in Bath !

I have looked at the marriage of Mary Love and now youve told me I can make out william Muir for the father's name. 



So her mother must have married Mr Love later or had 3 children outside marriage !
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: mcphee13 on Thursday 16 February 17 01:26 GMT (UK)
Hi ! Donald McKay was the son of Donald McKay & Mary Hart from Shettleston, Lanark Scotland- married Margaret Love.
Mary Hart McKay married Charles Stevenson 1904 in Shettleston
My gr, g. mother, Margaret Taylor ( McKay ) McPhee was  a daughter of Donald & Mary's- sister to Donald.
Willing to share info.
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 16 February 17 16:18 GMT (UK)
Hi how exciting to find a connection ......  Thanks for your offer to share  information too
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: mcphee13 on Friday 17 February 17 21:54 GMT (UK)
Hi ! Sorry having computer problems
Have some. Certificates I could e mail -not sure how much info you
Have or need -could you send a personal e mail with your e mail address ?
Where do you live ?
I'm from Canada - been researching my McPhee line for years

Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: flst on Friday 17 February 17 22:50 GMT (UK)
Hi, welcome to rootschat. Once you've made 3 posts you will be able to communicate via pm (personal message). This is the best way to exchange private information such as email addresses etc.
Regards,
flst
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Tuesday 21 February 17 21:32 GMT (UK)
Mcphee I have sent you a pm

Are you on ancestry ?  I can give you access to my tree
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: mcphee13 on Tuesday 21 February 17 21:58 GMT (UK)
Hi ! Yes, I'm on Ancestry- would appreciate seeing your tree- maybe I can fill some blanks.
I'll be away for about a week, granddaughter getting married- but will have my IPad with me.
Take care;

Shirle
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Tuesday 21 February 17 22:19 GMT (UK)
I've sent you a pm but think I got my generations mixed up it will definitely be easier to compare on trees

I haven't yet done the research on Scotlandspeople to add to what we know already about this family

So do we have My great great grandparents Donald McKay b1854 and Mary Love in common as direct ancestors ?
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: mcphee13 on Tuesday 21 February 17 22:53 GMT (UK)
I have Ancestry- but my tree's not updated there- there is an old one under McPhee- I use Family Tree Maker and could send forward a copy of my McKay tree- don't know how on Roots Chat.
Donald McKay & Mary Hart- my 2 gr. grandparents ( paternal)
Donald  McKay ( Margaret Love ) my gr. gr uncle
Mary Hart McKay ( Charles) - 1st cousin twice removed- I'd say that was my 3 cousin ?? I'd have to check that out- must be more !
My gr grandmother, Margaret Taylor McKay ( McPhee ) and Donald were siblings. so we are cousins of some sort.
I have some pictures that are suppose to be McKays- cousin in Scotland gave them to me- think they were taken in Montreal, Quebec, Canada.
Dougald another brother immigrated there.
Hope this helps
Shirle
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Tuesday 21 February 17 23:52 GMT (UK)
I found your tree and used it to update some of my dates

Interestingly Dougald McKay was a witness at the wedding of Donald McKay and Margaret love
As was her sister Isabel

A tree on ancestry has her as. Maggie love ....Tho she is Mary on some censuses

I don't know how to transfer trees

Thanks for your help B
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: mcphee13 on Wednesday 22 February 17 00:46 GMT (UK)
Hi ! I don't really want to put my tree on Ancestry- too many people copy it. 
Will have to figure out  how to e mail my records to you- must be a way- will do some checking.
Leaving in the morning- so will get back to you later next week.

Later;

Shirle
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 22 February 17 01:24 GMT (UK)
Hi Girls,

Shirle, if Brigid can follow a Report (NGS Quarterly) which is in Descendant Order & you have FTM that may be best?

I often send reports but I highlight each family in different colours to make it easier for people who have never seen a report before or know how to read one & I also send a Descendant Tree from FTM which helps to work out who's who.

Annie
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 22 February 17 07:12 GMT (UK)
Annie I don't know how to do anything like that.
Shirl we can just share the details we want in messages now ...Don't have to share  whole trees

I.m stumped by Margaret Love born approx 1840 ...
..Can't find a corresponding  birth or marriage
Even on SP

Could she have had 3 children without being married .?

 William Manners (suggested by Monica Inman  post 13
+ *
HE WAS father she sited as deceased    ...servant on her wedding cert
managed to Decippher WILLIAM MUIR

Her biological fatherno sign of any marriage for Margaret Love b 1838.

I'm not finding any birth registrations or baptisms for her children on SP or ancestry

Margaret. Muir (LOVE )1857
Or
Isabelle Lutch (LOVE )1860

or John Love b1863
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 22 February 17 07:37 GMT (UK)
I have found Margaret Love on various electoral rolls

From 1875 to 1905
Living at 7 lightburn cottage  .As tenant occupier..Not looked at all of them.

She seems to with son John on some censuses

1901 she's alone aged 64 farmworker at lightburn

She May have lived til 1927 ....i need to buy more credits on SP ...To confirm

Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 22 February 17 07:47 GMT (UK)
1891 Margaret Love head of house
ag lab aged 51
son John is aged 24 coal miner
lodger
Ellen Canning19
loom weaver
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 22 February 17 09:30 GMT (UK)
Hi ! I don't really want to put my tree on Ancestry- too many people copy it. 
You are very wise.

Quote
Will have to figure out  how to e mail my records to you- must be a way
First, use the Personal Message system on RootsChat to exchange e-mail addresses.

Then you can e-mail a copy of your tree direct. If you keep it in a good genealogy program you should be able to export a GEDCOM file. If not, you can just send the file, or whatever part(s) of it you want to share.

Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 22 February 17 12:11 GMT (UK)
thanks forfar

meamwhile i think i have found possible parents for margaret love

james love age 62 and elizabeth

Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 22 February 17 14:54 GMT (UK)
ive been working all day on this

If Mary Love is the youngest  of ten children of james and Elizabeth Love
she would have had hes daughter margaret when aged 16

if her daughters were with  their paternal gfather William Manners in 1861 while she was a 18 year old seamstress
why are their names down as margret Muir age 5 and isabella Lutch aged 1 ?

i definitely need to look at some original census
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 22 February 17 17:43 GMT (UK)
 Margaret Love is a real mystery
 her death cert        is not helping

age75 feb 1915

Down as widow of John Love Coal miner
and parents as James Birrel coal mimer deceased
jeane Birell mm Reid

but these names not coming up on searches
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 22 February 17 17:55 GMT (UK)
Annie I don't know how to do anything like that.

Hi Brigid,

I was meaning for Shirle to send you the info. in the formats I suggested for easy following from her FTM.

You can then print them off & be able to identify with it/them better  ;)

Annie
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 22 February 17 18:01 GMT (UK)
Thanks she is very busy
My Margaret Love research is not connected to her ancestors directly so she wont have that bit

 I'll write out a time line with what i know so far or get someone to explain how to copy it from Ancestry
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: mcphee13 on Wednesday 22 February 17 18:11 GMT (UK)
Hi ! Not ignoring you- just leaving for the wedding- will have a good look at everything when I get home
Keep searching and we will compare. Sometimes you have to work sideways- so do have some info on Donald & Margaret
 you probably have this
Jeanne Stevenson- 21- married David Cooper Wylie- 24. June 9th, 1933 at Shettleston, Lanark, Scotland- if not will copy info for you

Shirle
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: MonicaL on Wednesday 22 February 17 18:51 GMT (UK)
It was fairly common for illegitimate children to go by the name of their reputed father. From earlier, we had Isabella's likely birth entry under the surname Love https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQD9-YVM and possible also for Margaret, https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQDS-GTL

Maybe checking the original would help you confirm further details. Addresses can also help for example by letting you verify against censuses etc.

Monica  :)
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: MonicaL on Wednesday 22 February 17 18:56 GMT (UK)
Sorry, Brigid, I am getting a little confused if I am honest...but that is just me likely!

Might be good to just do a little summary of the names and couples that you have in some sort of time order. Will help others trying to help here, letting them add pieces of info to your puzzle  ;)

One thing from me on some of the names. I getting confused between the name Mary and Margaret and how it is coming up. Bear in mind that sometimes in the censuses, the abbreviation of Marg. (naturally for Margaret) can be transcribed in error to Mary.

Monica
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 22 February 17 19:09 GMT (UK)
Thanks Monica
how do i see the original ??

Your William Manners 1861 census was a brilliant find
I've started a topic on beginners board  just about
the elusiveness of
Margaret where i did a summary because i was mixing my Mary + margaret and tend to be haphazard in my explanations

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=765859.msg6177605
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: MonicaL on Wednesday 22 February 17 19:25 GMT (UK)
Originals images for Scotland BMDs are always on Scotlands People as mentioned. It can be hard to view everything, even though cost is much cheaper than ordering a cert from England or Wales, they can do build up don't they  :-\

Monica
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 22 February 17 19:40 GMT (UK)
oh i thought you meant i could look at original on family search

I have 12 credits left on SP so have to choose which would be most useful to look at .

summary 
 Margaret LOVE
  FACTS
she died age 75
1915 in Shettlestone Lanarkshire Scotland where she seems to have lived most of her life .
1885-1905 shes on electoral registers in Lightburn area
and with or near her son john b approx 1863 on censuses 1911 1901 1891 as an ag lab 1881 farm worker

In 1871 she is aged 35 with her children Margaret love aged14 Isabella aged 11 and John aged 4

and a brother John Love aged 33  which made me think she was using her maiden name (SPECULATION)

 her daughter Margaret{Maggie) Love has her father As being William Muir deceased on her wedding cert

in 1861 Margaret(Maggie) Muir aged 4 is with a grandfather William Manners
his step daughter Margaret Manners     
and another small grandchild named  Isabela Lutch

there is a Margaret Love 10th daughter of James + Eizabeth Love whose age is similar but shes down as a 17 yearold seamstress with her parents in 1861

Any new theories ?


Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 22 February 17 20:00 GMT (UK)
 This is the link to general discussion about non registration of births on beginners forum

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=765859.new#new

someone came up with a transcription of the 1871 census

it actually has Margaret Love as 'unmarried' age 35 with her 3 children 

wish id'd seen that before looking at all the Margaret Love marriages in Lanarkshire
(There ARE A LOT ! )
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 22 February 17 21:46 GMT (UK)
someone came up with a transcription of the 1871 census
it actually has Margaret Love as 'unmarried' age 35 with her 3 children 
wish id'd seen that before looking at all the Margaret Love marriages in Lanarkshire
The moral of the story is, don't trust transcriptions. Always check the original :)



Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 22 February 17 22:05 GMT (UK)
well .ive spent my last credit on orig census in SP looking for Margaret Love with brother James in 1841

came up with one possibility
in Eastmuir
living with grandmother Margaret Sheddi 70
David Love 9
Margaret Love 7
James Love 5

now its back to general searches on Ancestry i suppose

i couldnt find who her daughter Isabella married so couldnt find her marriage or death which would have given fathers name
 
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 22 February 17 23:07 GMT (UK)
1911 has Margaret 77 at lightburn

Next door but 1 is John Love aged 44 foreman at coal pit with wife Elz

And children aged 17 to 9

Someone on ancestry has him married to Elizabeth Crichton who was their next door neighbour in 1891

That's something to be going on with ....I like to look at the original census and see neighbours names and jobs and in the Shettleston community the people who didn't travel for more lucrative employment remained close by their families
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 23 February 17 07:03 GMT (UK)
I have dismissed James love and Elizabeth king as being Margaret's parents

But they may be her grandparents but via which of their many children ?

One of the trees on ancestry does mention a Snedden which could be link to
 Shedden grandmother in 1841.

Can anyone help me sort out that link pls ....

(You seem to be whizzes at searching in seconds ...I have to spend hours on each search )

People on Ancestry seem to add "facts" frequently
 but so far none of my messages have been answered
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 23 February 17 07:20 GMT (UK)
Have been advised to try by rootschaters to try talkingscot site

http://www.talkingscot.com/

It looks interesting

Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 23 February 17 09:05 GMT (UK)
Margaret Love is a real mystery
 her death cert        is not helping

age75 feb 1915

Down as widow of John Love Coal miner
and parents as James Birrel coal mimer deceased
jeane Birell mm Reid

but these names not coming up on searches

I don't think this can possibly be the Margaret Love you are looking for.
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: MonicaL on Thursday 23 February 17 09:20 GMT (UK)
Reposting this from the other thread....


Brigid, just trying to go back again for Margaret snr to see what we had.

Focusing on censuses, we had for 1841:

Margaret Sheddin, parish pauper
David Love 9, parish pauper
Margaret Love 7, parish pauper
James Love 5, parish pauper

Address: Eastmuir, Shettleston

I think this entry connects to this entry in 1851. Please note that at least A/try has potentially mistrascribed William's surname to Manners. Only the original image from SP will help to confirm. FreeCen, which I find much more reliable as it is trascribed by volunteers shows the surname as Mathers:

William Mather, 42 coal miner b. Barony
Isabella Mather, 50 b. Monkland       
David Love, 19 stepson coal miner b. Barony
James Love, 15 stepson coal miner b. Govan

Address: Lightburn, Shettleston

There is a possible entry for Margaret aged 17 working as a domestic servant in a household in Govan. As we have discussed, we then likely have Margaret back with mother and stepfather William in 1861, together with daughters Margaret and Isabella.

Monica 

PS: In Scotland at least, Elizabeth and Isabella are connected name variants www.whatsinaname.net/female-names/Elizabeth.html       
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 23 February 17 09:39 GMT (UK)
Wow Monica's fantastic and makes sense all is beginning to tie up
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 23 February 17 09:44 GMT (UK)
Forfar why do you think the death certificate isn't for mynMargaret love ?

The age address and son's name all ties in with the addresses in have for her on censuses and electoral rolls up to 1910

She was unmarried but her son may not have known that
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 23 February 17 11:05 GMT (UK)
[quote author=brigidmac link=topic=756853.msg6177361#msg6177361 date=1487775299
if her daughters were with  their paternal gfather William Manners in 1861 while she was a 18 year old seamstress why are their names down as margret Muir age 5 and isabella Lutch aged 1 ? [/quote]
Because even if the entire parish knew who their father(s) was/were, their births could not be registered under his/their names unles (t)he(y) accompanied the mother to the Registrar's when she went to register the births, and signed the certificate along with her.

It's very common to find illegitimate children registered under only their mother's surname, but listed in a census under a different surname which is often (but not always) their father's surname.

In this case
Margaret Love, born 10 April 1857
Isabella Love, born 6 August 1860
John Love, born 4 July 1866, all registered in Shettleston, mother Margaret Love, no father named.

Quote
i definitely need to look at some original census
Excellent plan.
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 23 February 17 11:09 GMT (UK)
Forfar why do you think the death certificate isn't for mynMargaret love ?
The age address and son's name all ties in with the addresses in have for her on censuses and electoral rolls up to 1910
She was unmarried but her son may not have known that
Because the death certificate is for Margaret Birrell or Love, widow of John Love.

The only way it can be hers is if her son was inventing her parentage and husband, or if she had invented it and he believed her. Not impossible, of course.

It would be very interesting to see what parents are listed on the marriage and death certificates of Margaret, Isabella and John!
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: MonicaL on Thursday 23 February 17 11:35 GMT (UK)
A little more headway....

I think Margaret Snr's mother, who we have as wife of William Mather, likely died in 1863 in Shettleston.

Connected death index entries on SP in Shettleston, same ref of 622/3 177:

Isabella Mather/Birrell aged 67.

So from this, we are finding the name Birrell connected to mother Isabella. Likely over the years, names got confused so that by the time Margaret's son was reporting her death, he may have jumbled up names. He also stated his mother was married/widowed, which I think you have from everything so far that in fact she did not marry.

There is a marriage/banns entry showing an Isabella Burrell marrying a James Love in 1830 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTTG-X3Y

At least son David's birth details show https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X17R-3YP

Manners/Mather...who knows really! Isabella's marriage to William after the death of James Love shows his surname back to Manners https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTT6-P2F  As always, the joy of variations on spellings and name variants  ::)

Monica
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 23 February 17 16:57 GMT (UK)

and
 Muir was maggie Love (junior B.1857  )birth father apparently it is quite common to list birth father's

I didn't know census stated "unmarried  " so a look at transcript didn't inspire me to pay for this original among the others I'd looked at

With all this new info it's definitely worth me spending an extra tenner on Scotlands people tonight

Thanks all

,Have John Love marriage to Elizabeth Crichton now too...
Confirms son of Margaret Love  ,.....no father

But her surname is not Birrell or Mather/Manners from birth of son John Love in 1863

So she was Maggie was common law wife and used his name until her death
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: MonicaL on Thursday 23 February 17 17:26 GMT (UK)
Agree and Muir was her birth father apparently it is quite common to list birth father's


This must be Margaret Jnr, daughter of Margaret Love, born in 1857.

Let us know how you get on with the searches  :)

Monica
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 23 February 17 22:47 GMT (UK)
 thanks to Monicas sleuthing and some help from Ancestry  i/m still updating my tree i seem to have double entered some people and dont know how to ref sources which i didnt find on ancestry
BUT
 i can now say
 
Elizabeth (isabella ) Birrell b about 1800 in Monkland
1st marriage 1830 to James Love
children David ,Margaret  and James
2nd husband   1844 William Manners (Mathers )on some transcriptions
 
Margaret Love born 1838
 1841 aged 7 living with Grandmother Margaret Sheddin 70 and her siblings all parish paupers

1861  she is Margaret Manners living with step father William Mathers?
her daughters Maggie Muir 4 and isabella lurtch

after birth of son john Love 1862 with James love

1871 census  Margaret Love aged 35 is listed as unmarried
with brother james Love 33
         Maggie Love 14   Isabella Love ,and john Love 9

 all other censuses Margaret + maggie use surname Love
1895 son Johns marriage ..recorded as son of Margaret Love no father
 
Death Cert
age 75 in 1915 ..father James Birrel coal miner deceased
widow of John Love coal minor .
 yes it is Margaratesdeath

maggie died age 70
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 23 February 17 23:00 GMT (UK)
thanks to Monicas sleuthing and some help from Ancestry  i/m still updating my tree i seem to have double entered some people and dont know how to ref sources which i didnt find on ancestry
Ignore Ancestry. They don't, by and large, have any of the original documents so they are not a true source.

You need to view all the originals and then ref the originals. How you ref them is up to you, but they are all from the National Records of Scotland (NRS) - Statutory civil registers birth/year/registration district/number or marriage/year, RD, number of death/year/RD/number;  census/year/district/enumeration district/page; baptism/year/parish/page or banns/parish/page or burial/year/parish/page.

Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 23 February 17 23:53 GMT (UK)
Ancestry do have the originals on  some parish records
and a kind member shared John love's marriage cert with me

I hope you are not getting impatient with me .

I am taking on board advice and would like to reply to postings quicker
but
It takes me so long to type things out.
 
It took me half an hour to copy + paste from 1 thread to another
...my eyes are suffering
putting it all in order before deciding which originals to pay for ..i really cant afford this hobby ..am saving up for DNA tests

i was going to buy some SP credits but have been updating my ancestry tree for past 5 hours .

Very please that all those names did eventually link up .
 
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 24 February 17 08:26 GMT (UK)
Ancestry do have the originals on  some parish records
and a kind member shared John love's marriage cert with me
That's good.

Quote
I hope you are not getting impatient with me .
No, not at all. It's great to see the information falling into place. I am sorry if I sound impatient - I am really not. All this takes time.

Quote
I am taking on board advice and would like to reply to postings quicker but
It takes me so long to type things out.
I've had a good night's sleep since my last post  :) How fast you or anyone else types isn't important.
 
Quote
It took me half an hour to copy + paste from 1 thread to another
It gets easier the more you do it  :)

Quote
i really cant afford this hobby
I am sure I would struggle too if I had to buy every certificate separately. We're very lucky that Scottish ones are relatively inexpensive compared with English and Welsh, New Zealand, Australian and many North American certificates.

Quote
Very please that all those names did eventually link up .
Indeed.
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Friday 24 February 17 14:35 GMT (UK)
 i was just excusing myself to everyone who posts in case i seem to ignore responses even tho i'm still on line
the technology gets easier but the site gets worse ..some days i have bad eye strain

 now  i have subs to ancestry i can see the original  scots and english census forms for free
which i think works out cheaper than paying for each on SP over time

would have to pay extra for worldwide

still bowled over by those connections ...and am working out which of my granma mac's cousins emigrated
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 24 February 17 14:56 GMT (UK)
now  i have subs to ancestry i can see the original  scots and english census forms for free
which i think works out cheaper than paying for each on SP over time
I don't think you can view the originals of all the Scottish census anywhere online other than at SP. Ancestry's transcriptions are not always reliable, and I believe they omit some of the information on the originals, for example marital status.
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Friday 24 February 17 15:02 GMT (UK)
so you mean they blank them off the original documents ? cos the ones I've seen dont look tampered with .

on yellow paper sometimes illeg handwriting ?? they dont include on the visible transcription but when you press view document ..it either shows orig or says not available

Donald Mckay's marriage to Maggie love(MuiR) was on there .

as was the one with Margaret s brothe  written in wrong box on orig so comes out in transcript as Jane Love not james love aged 33
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 24 February 17 15:19 GMT (UK)
says not available
Just so. Not available. They obviously have some images, but they don't have all of what is available at SP.
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Monday 29 January 18 21:39 GMT (UK)
Update. ..I have found someone who matches my DNA distantly who has  a LOVE family from Shettleston on his tree
His dates are different to mine but the names  Margaret 1841 .John 1867 are the same
John's first child is called Isabella Love b 1897

Thanks all
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: Ladyhawk on Wednesday 31 January 18 06:02 GMT (UK)
brididmac has done an update today on the other thread

Quote
Hope that is clear ..but i think ive posted it on wrong thread

so I've added here

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=765859.new;topicseen#new
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 31 January 18 09:58 GMT (UK)
Thanks lady hawk

After all these years Im still working out how to use qoute button trying to copy post over from that thread

Re margaret.seniors mother now

Summarising facts given : not seen SP transcripts yet

Isabel Birrel   b ABT 1795
daughter of James Birrel coal miner

Married James LOVE in 1830 had son David ABT 1832  followed by Margaret and James
Where was she in 1841 if her children were paupers ....and what relation was she to Margaret SHEDDIN their grandmother

2nd husband was William Manners
comes up as Mathers 

Married 1846

 1861 Elizabeth Manners aged 65 b
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 31 January 18 10:43 GMT (UK)
 Copied and pasted instead

Maggie LOVE b 1857 was my grandmothers grandmother
her story is starting to make sense i have found dna descendants of her brother John LOVE b1863

 Margaret b abt 1835 /1840
never married
is listed as Margaret LOVE on daughters births


1861she is Margaret Manners stepdaughter to wlliam manners
Her daughters are down as his grandchildren: Margaret MUIR aged 4 and isabella LUTCH 8 mths

 Son john b .
 1863 she reverts to the name of LOVE.

In 1871 she is listed as head of household
Unmarried
aged 35 bleach worker
All 3 children now have LOVE surname .
Living
 With brother james LOVE collier aged 33 b glasgow l

This would fit with 1841 census margaret LOVE aged 7 with brothers james aged 5 and david aged 9
all living with their 70 year old grandmother Margaret SHEDDIN
All were paupers of the parish of Eastmuir Shettleston
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 31 January 18 13:31 GMT (UK)
1851 Margaret age 17 was a domestic

William Muir is described as a servant

Maybe thats who Maggie knows to be her father

Ive jjust spent an hour in library. Find my past is so much easier to use. But i got distracted  by 1939 searches  too.
I found Isabella BIRREL m to William MANNERS 29/9/1844 in Barony

Not found the Sheddin connection yet.
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: Wendy2305 on Wednesday 31 January 18 19:06 GMT (UK)

This would fit with 1841 census margaret LOVE aged 7 with brothers james aged 5 and david aged 9
all living with their 70 year old grandmother Margaret SHEDDIN
All were paupers of the parish of Eastmuir Shettleston

Just a small point the 1841 census doesn't give relationships Margaret Sheddin possibly not related could just be a friend who lives with them looking after the children while the mother worked or could just be a neighbour who had the children the night the census was taken
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 31 January 18 19:42 GMT (UK)
Thanks Wendy
I could have sworn id seen grandchildren written somewhere

I think the correct spelling is more likely to be Shedden  too as there were some other Sheddens around in lanarkshire at this time .

As for jamesBirrel being put as father on death cert maybe Margeret Love junior believed they were her parents
She named her first daughter isabelle
Not Mary after her birth  mother
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Thursday 01 February 18 16:29 GMT (UK)
Today i came across a death record
1857
For an 11year old Margaret Love
Not ours but for anyone who.s researching the same names
Informant grandfather james love
Not presenr

Her parents named as james love and Margaret Brown
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: Forfarian on Sunday 04 February 18 21:44 GMT (UK)
brididmac has done an update today on the other thread
Quote
Hope that is clear ..but i think ive posted it on wrong thread
so I've added here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=765859.new;topicseen#new
But be careful when reading that thread in connection with this one to note that some of it refers to England and Wales, where the rules were not the same as in Scotland.
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Monday 23 April 18 00:26 BST (UK)
UPDATE
more DNA results
from my Scottish aunt
links us to the HART LOVE and MCKAY families

one distant relative match ..has a large tree but only 1 surname in  common
REID ...so links right back to 1700's
I.ll put a summary up tomorrow

Thank to everyone whos contributed so far
 amazing detective work for a complicated story
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Monday 23 April 18 10:28 BST (UK)
 so I no longer believe that our  poor MCKay and LOVE people went to New Zealand back to Scotland to emigrate a decade or soo later

but that the second wave went to join their cousins in New Zealand with similar names birth dates + places

Mary LOVE b.1850 daughter of John LOVE + Sarah MIlner

married John McKay in NEW ZEALAND in 1868

They had a daughter  Mary HArt MCKay B 1878

(another Mary LOVE married a John Mc Kay in NZ too)

My great grandmother Mary Hart McKay was born 1884 in Shettleston lanarkshire SCOTLAND
and lived there all her life but her daughter Jeannie Kyle Macdermid  emigrated to NZ with her husband James Black and 3 small children in 1926 weeJimmy Black  age 4  jean  kyle black + baby Ramsey malcolm Black
..
proof via DNA results
 links us to to our NZ 4th cousins descended from Jean Kyle Black m Dwyer
Title: Re: McKay Love and Hart marriages
Post by: brigidmac on Monday 23 April 18 10:46 BST (UK)
Other DNA links us to other more distant descendents of the  LOVES

Now ive found some LOVE dna matches i thought Id try to summarise  our findings so far

Maggie LOVE b 1857 was my grandmothers grandmother

 i may have descendants of her sister isabelle LOVE b1860
 & brother john love b1863 

Need to get people with DNA matche to show their trees or answer my posts 
because all  3 children had different fathers our  DNA connection will appear 1 step further than it actually is

5th or 6th cousins to
Their mother who was Margaret b abt 1836

Luckily some people have big enough trees to find the link

1861she is listed Margaret MAnners stepdaughter to
 her mother Elizabeth/ Isabelle Birrell .s 2nd husband William Manners

Her daughters listed  as grandchildren: MargaretMUIR aged 4 and isabellaLUTCh 8 mths
 after having john LOVE b 1863 .

In 1871 she is listed as head of household
Unmarried aged 35 bleach worker
All 3 children now have Love surname .

There is a james LOVE  collier aged 33 b glasgow listed as brother any DNA descendats of his would be another step away ..or 2 if He had a different father too

This would fit with 1841 census margaret LOVE aged 7
 brothers james aged 5
and david aged 9
all living with their 70 year old grandmother Margaret SHEDDIN
All were paupers of the parish of Eastmuir Shettleston

The SHEDDIN + MUIR surnames are coming up on trees of distant DNA matches who dont seem to have many ancestors from Scotland on their trees so I.m guessing earlier emigrations

In 1851 margaret love aged 17  may be in service
With Willlium.Muir a servant
 father of her daughter Maggie .

1891 and on several electoral rolls margaret love is an ag lab
Son john  a coalminer aged 24 .

They live at lightburn


So I think this post needs to be transfereed to Emigration board to find people who can provide the missing links

Look forward to hearing from anyone who fits into this complicated whether they have DNA proof or historical context