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General => World War Two => Armed Forces => WWII In Memoriam => Topic started by: PaulEllix on Saturday 08 October 16 17:53 BST (UK)
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Lance Corporal Service Number T/104165 - Former professional footballer with Leeds, Portsmouth and Reading (although died before ever playing for Reading). Is buried in CWGC at Douvres la Deliverande.
Was born in Bradford in 1918 and married Dylis Richards in 1943 in Liverpool.
I'm trying to find out more about him - if anyone knows anything or has any suggestions for research I'd be grateful.
Thanks
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Welcome to Rootschat.
The T in his service number denotes Transport, so he was probably a driver. That service number suggests to me that he joined the Army very close to the outbreak of war in September 1939.
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I wonder if he ever played in Army Football matches?
Between different regiments, or with the Navy or RAF.
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Hello Paul, and welcome to rootschat. :)
Are you looking for information about his army life, his personal life, or both?
For example, as you know who he married, do you know the names of his descendants? Do you know who his parents were?
Do you have his army service record? This would be worth purchasing if you are looking for information about his wartime activities.
Once we have a better idea of what exactly you are looking for, we can try to help you with the relevant information. :)
I wonder if he ever played in Army Football matches?
Between different regiments, or with the Navy or RAF.
Why don't you see if you can find any records relating to this?
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Paul
Welcome from me too.
Detailed service records for the Second World War are still held by the Ministry of Defence and your best move is, as Ruskie has said, to apply for his record. Here's how:
https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/overview
The cemetery in which he is buried has the graves mostly of men who fell in the weeks immediately following D Day. Men of the Royal Army Service Corps were to be found all over the post D-Day battlefield. We don't know exactly what unit he was in and so what he was doing on the day he was killed is totally a matter of speculation, this link
http://www.dday-overlord.com/eng/15_july_1944.htm tells you briefly what was going on that day. His record will tell you when he landed in Normandy.
Can't find him in the Leeds United or Portsmouth player statistics but you may have more success if you spend a bit of time clicking around the club historical stats. Again, as Ruskie suggests, a delve around to find records of interservice football games may come up with something, here's a link to start you off http://www.iwm.org.uk/history/10-facts-about-football-in-the-second-world-war
Start with his records, everything else is just guesswork.
Good luck and post again if you find something specific that needs looking into.
maxD
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Wonderful advice and suggestions Max. :)
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Thank you everyone for your welcomes and advice for research. I'll take those up and if I find something out I'll post it. I'm trying to find out aspects of his personal, football and military life and, with bit of luck, a photograph of him.
Kind regards
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I'll leave the military aspects of Frank's life to the experts, but his marriage certificate will give his father's name, and his birth certificate will give both of his parent's names, so purchasing a certificate or two will enable you to trace his family.
There are a couple of births for Frank Ibbotson in 1918 - this one is in Bradford district:
Births Sep 1918
Ibbotson Frank
mmn Willis
Bradford 9b 137
(of course if his name was Frances, there may be other possibilities)
According to this his mother's surname is Willis.
There is a marriage seems to fit the above details:
Marriages Jun 1915
Ibbotson George
Willis Maggie
Bradford 9b 473
This is just speculation and you should really purchase Frank's marriage certificate to confirm his father is George. You can order here:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp
Using these details:
Marriages
Jun quarter of 1943
Ibbotson Frank
Richards Dilys J
district: Liverpool S.
Volume: 8b
Page: 144
Let us know if you need further help with this.
Added: I have just checked the CWGC (which I should have done first), and see that the above details are correct and his parents are George and Margaret. You probably don't need to buy that certificate now. ;) But depending on where you wish to take your research, it might be worth purchasing the marriage certificate of George and Margaret, hoping it gives an age and occupation for George. There are a number of George Ibbotson's so we need more information to work out which George is the father of Frank. :)
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I wonder which medals he qualified for?
1939/45 Star
Maybe the Africa Star?
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I wonder which medals he qualified for?
1939/45 Star
Maybe the Africa Star?
You may wish to assist Paul by enquiring here:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-ministry-of-defence-medal-office#contact-details
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SB - Given that we have no idea at all when he joined up or where he served apart from Normandy for about 5 weeks in 1944, speculating about his campaign medal entitlement is a total waste of time and Paul is best advised to wait until he has his records.
BTW - could you provide the evidence that leads you to say he joined up very close to the outbreak of war?
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His army serial number indicates that he joined up in 1939.
My father was in RASC and his number was 147733
and I believe the date he volunteered was in September 1939.
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I prefer to wait until Paul has his record. "I believe" is not evidence and I would ask how does his number indicate he joined up in 1939 - could you direct me to the definitive listing of RASC numbers against date of enlistment.
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Thank you once again for your suggestions, including the personal messages.
From your advice I have applied for his service record, which I understand may take a while. In the meantime I am also researching his time at the various football clubs for which he was a player - although I know he never made an appearance for Reading; having signed for the club following the end of the 1938-39 season.
When I find out some more I'll post it.
Once again thank you all for your help.
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Thank you for the update. Do you know whether he had been in France in 1940?
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Thank you for the update. Do you know whether he had been in France in 1940?
Paul informed us that he has just applied for Frank's service record, which will give him details of his service, including dates and locations.
You may not be aware, but there is generally some time to wait before receiving a service record - this wait used to be up to 12 months, but recently I believe it has been around three months.
Please return when you have received the service record Paul. In the mean time good luck with finding out more about his footballing career.
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Good move Paul, we look forward to news when you have it.
maxD
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I now have Frank Ibbotson's service history, which makes interesting reading.
He served with the BEF in 1939/40 and was evacuated on 23 June 1940, which I thinks means it was most likely from Saint Jean de Luz.
He then served at home until 1944.
In 1944 he was serving in 53 Tipper Company RASC and returned to France on 11 July, which was just 4 days before he died (of wounds).
He was awarded 1939-45 Star, France Germany Star, War medal and Defence Medal.
If anyone can point me in the direction of where I might find out more information on 53 Tipper Company RASC I should be most grateful.
As far as his football career is concerned, although he was on the books of Leeds and Portsmouth (before moving to Reading), it doesn't look like he made a first team appearance for either of those clubs.
Kind regards
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He must have been one of the last men out in June 23rd 1940.
Does it say the date when he first joined up. please?
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That was a quick turnaround. :)
Thanks for letting us know Paul.
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He must have been one of the last men out in June 23rd 1940.
Does it say the date when he first joined up. please?
Yes, it's 17th July 1939