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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: Pennines on Saturday 15 October 16 15:55 BST (UK)
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Hello Everyone,
I am trying to assist a friend with her family history and I am in unfamiliar territory in the Northumberland/Durham area.
George Craik or Creak and his wife Margaret (maiden name unknown) had at least the following children baptised in Tweedmouth;
Nicholas (transcribed as Nichol on FindMyPast) 1798 (my friend's direct ancestral line).
Thomas 1800
Robert 1806
I obtained these baptisms from the Northumberland/Durham records on Find My Past, where in all 3 cases the surname is shown as CREAK. (In the case of Nicholas it later became CRAIK).
These baptisms do not appear on FreeReg.
I wondered if anyone had access to Parish Registers for Tweedmouth please - other than those on FindMyPast and FreeReg.
I would like to find at least a burial for George Creak or Craik and his wife Margaret -- the parents of the boys shown above.
I cannot find a marriage for him or a baptism -- but suspect this could be in Scotland in view of the surnames recorded at the baptisms of the couple's children -- accent and all that!
Any help, no matter how small, would be very much appreciated as I am stuck!
Many thanks indeed for at least reading this.
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George Craik or Creak and his wife Margaret (maiden name unknown) had at least the following children baptised in Tweedmouth;
Nicholas (transcribed as Nichol on FindMyPast) 1798 (my friend's direct ancestral line).
Thomas 1800
Robert 1806
I obtained these baptisms from the Northumberland/Durham records on Find My Past, where in all 3 cases the surname is shown as CREAK. (In the case of Nicholas it later became CRAIK).
These baptisms do not appear on FreeReg.
Unfortunately not, the entries on Free Reg for Tweedmouth were transcribed from the Bishop's Transcripts not the original Parish Registers.
I have just double checked the BTs image on Family Search and Nichol Creak is not on the page though 4 other baptisms which are dated Aug 1798 are on there.
The same for the other two children you mentioned.
The original register is held at Woodhorn and someone may have time to check it for you when they visit.
I'd be interested to know the details too, I transcribed Tweedmouth for Free Reg and automatically thought I'd dropped a clanger when I read your post, but it appears not (at least, not in this case !)
I'm wondering if the entries may have been in the PR but took place in a chapelry and therefore were omitted on the BT for the Parish Church? Don't know but would be interested to find out.
Boo
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Boo -- thank you so much for your speedy reply AND for all your hard work transcribing registers for FreeReg.
Your suggestion that the baptisms may have taken place at a chapel of ease is a good thought.
On Find My Past - it simply states that the baptisms are transcripts taken from the original baptism records and have been provided by the Northumberland and Durham Family History Society.
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Boo -- thank you so much for your speedy reply AND for all your hard work transcribing registers for FreeReg.
Your suggestion that the baptisms may have taken place at a chapel of ease is a good thought.
On Find My Past - it simply states that the baptisms are transcripts taken from the original baptism records and have been provided by the Northumberland and Durham Family History Society.
The Chapelry thought was just me clutching at straws, its puzzling that all three are missing from the BTs., that's a very big coincidence if its just a line jump by the vicar whilst transcribing the original for the BTs.
Yes the data on FindMyPast will have been transcribed from the original register - which is the best source to get the info from, but they are not available outside of the Archives, so the BTs - images on Family Search were the best available at the time to get as much as possible into the database.
So, wait a while and someone may be along to offer to check the original register, it would be helpful if you also post the dates you have for the baptisms of these children - that may make it easier to do.
a look up.
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Hi again Boo,
It's not so much the baptisms I am interested in -- I am more wanting to find perhaps a burial for George Creak/Craik and his wife Margaret.
Or a marriage would be great too.
However the details of their children's baptisms are;
Nichol Creak 12 Aug 1798 (birth date 30 Jul 1798)
Thomas Creak ? ? 1800 (birth date 12 March 1800)
Robert Creak 20 June 1806 (birth date 11 June 1806)
I would have expected more children - amd maybe there were more born before Nichol (Nicholas) -- possibly elsewhere.
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Yes I realise that but anther odd thing about that baptism transcription on Free Reg, (given the dates) is that there is no mention of where each child came in the family (1st son, 4th son whatever) and no information about where the parents were born, the mother's maiden name, sometimes the name and abode of the mother's father etc etc. This is what I'd expect as they were in the Barrington* years .
* the Bishop at the time, Shute-Barrington, had an interest in genealogy and set a requirement for the parish registers to include such details. It didn't last many years but for the period that it was recorded its an invaluable pointer to tracing the families backwards. The BTs for Tweedmouth that are on Free Reg have this sort of detail for the entries.
IF the parish register has this sort of detail it could help you a lot.
Using a combination of Free Reg and the BTs on Family Search I can find a George CRAKE, age 60, abode Tweedmouth buried at Tweedmouth 18th Nov 1832
image on Family Search is here
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01io2/
Not enough info to say one way or another if he is the man you are looking for, but the age would be ok for him to be the father of the children you mentioned. I'd shove it in the 'possibles' box.
another 'possible'
1841 census HO107/piece318/book12/folio16/page26
Margaret Craik age 65, born in County, living in Church Lane, Tweedmouth
Boo
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Do you know if Nicholas (born 1798) was a stonemason? If so, this 'may' be his will if you don't have it already
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01io5/
Boo
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Boo --- you absolute STAR! Thank you so much.
Yes that is Margaret Craik on the 1841 census - Nicholas is nearby. I had found that actually, but she seems to have died Q/E Dec 1851 - and I haven't found her on the 1851 census. I'll just have to send for that death cert I think. I was hoping a burial record may state 'Widow of George' then I would know.
The Will DOES belong to Nicholas as well -- he did die in 1855 and was a Stonemason. His wife was Elizabeth Wilson. I had no idea that Durham Wills were available on Family Search. What a bonus, as he names children I haven't found. Thank you SO much for finding that and for alerting me to that set of records.
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Re your reply about the mysterious baptism records. From what you say then - it is even more peculiar. I know the type of very useful records you mean. I know them as Dade Registers and there were several examples in some of my own parishes in Yorkshire. They are SO useful, but did cause complaints from the clergy who had more recording to do!
I wonder then about those Tweedmouth transcripts. Has an incorrect 'reference number' or something been input thereby bringing up the parish as Tweedmouth, whereas it's really somewhere else. I know that happened on Ancestry with some Lancashire Records from Lancashire Record Office - hence baptisms recorded as - say Langho -- were really somewhere else several miles away (or vice versa, can't remember now).
From what you say - it doesn't sound like they should be Tweedmouth though.
Thank you again so very much for your help - I really do appreciate it. It makes a difference to someone from outside the area - floundering between Durham and Northumberland. They did like changing these counties around didn't they!
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George Craik, labourer of Tweedmouth and Margaret Johnson his wife had a daughter baptised at Shaw's Lane Presbyterian Chapel in Berwick on 18 September 1814, born 9 September and named Martha Katherine ( writter Keteron).
George Creak and Margaret Johnstone both of Berwick Parish were married at Coldstream Bridge (irregular marriage) on 2 July 1797.
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I am overwhelmed! That is just more great information -- thank you so very much. May I ask how you found that please?
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Aha --- just found that baptism amongst the Non-Conformist Baptisms on Ancestry.
The others aren't there though -- but I will explore that angle --- if George and/or Margaret did have Scottish origins it stands to reason that they may be Presbyterian. Many thanks again.
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I have transcripts of Presbyterian registers which I did for Berwick Record Office and most of which are now available at Berwick Record Office and at Woodhorn. I also have some marriages, burials and baptisms abstracted from Scottish parishes bordering Northumberland.
We concentrated on transcribing Presbyterian registers because some of them just came to light in recent years. A lot of information is not available online, which is why I keep and eye on this forum in case anyone is up against a brick wall!
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A lot of information is not available online, which is why I keep and eye on this forum in case anyone is up against a brick wall!
and its very much appreciated by us all :-)
Boo
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I had no idea that Durham Wills were available on Family Search.
Pleased its the right will, things like that are the icing on the cake!
In case you have others to find in Northumberland / Durham you can search wills pre 1858 by name here
http://familyrecords.dur.ac.uk/nei/data/simple.php
follow through the screens and the individual results will have a link to the images on Family Search
Boo
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Re your reply about the mysterious baptism records. From what you say then - it is even more peculiar. I know the type of very useful records you mean. I know them as Dade Registers and there were several examples in some of my own parishes in Yorkshire. They are SO useful, but did cause complaints from the clergy who had more recording to do!
I wonder then about those Tweedmouth transcripts. Has an incorrect 'reference number' or something been input thereby bringing up the parish as Tweedmouth, whereas it's really somewhere else. I know that happened on Ancestry with some Lancashire Records from Lancashire Record Office - hence baptisms recorded as - say Langho -- were really somewhere else several miles away (or vice versa, can't remember now).
From what you say - it doesn't sound like they should be Tweedmouth though.
Possible explanation:
From Jora's info, the family were, in the Anglican Vicar's view to be classed as 'Dissenters'. In my limited experience, as the Anglican registers were the 'civil registration' of the time, some non conformist parents requested that , though baptised into a different faith, their children's births be recorded in the Anglican register. In future years they may be required, for whatever reason to give proof of birth (as we would provide a copy birth cert) and at that time an Anglican Parish Register was accepted proof. A fair few Vicars seem happy to do this (he! he! they probably made a few pennies out of it)
It may well be the case here. It could explain why the births were not on the BTs (as far as the Vicar was concerned they were not of his flock so no point reporting them to the Bishop). It could also explain the lack of the usual detail in the transcription of the Original Parish Register. Why bother writing down all that info if you weren't going to tell the Bishop?
Again, this is me and my usual straw clutching, not writ in stone, but if anyone is going to Woodhorn, NoseyBoo would really like to know if there are any clues in the original entry :-)
Boo
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Could this be George?
Newcastle Courant 30th June 1827
On the 16th inst, at Tweedmouth , Mr George Craik, aged 55.
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Yet more great finds for this family. I am so very grateful to everyone.
Jora --- the non-conformist parish register book Ancestry (just in case you don't have access) - is apparantly Baptisms and Marriages for Berwick upon Tweed United Presbyterian, Chapel St - originally called Shaw's Lane Meeting House. Dates covered 1764-1858.
At the front of this book are several pages annotated at the top with 'A Register of Births and Baptisms Misplaced which have taken place some time before Registration.' This annotation is only on the first few pages.
I didn't see any marriages, but haven't been all the way through it.
Boo -- many thanks for the link to the North East Inheritance Database. I have bookmarked it for possible future reference. I have now seen the several batches of Durham Wills and Probate records on the England page of Family Search - but you have to 'browse' them - they aren't searchable. (Hours of fun!) The direct link will be most useful indeed.
I suspect your thoughts about the Dissenters baptisms in the C of E Church are probably correct - and they may not have been included in the BTs.
I know I have seen them listed in registers as a whole batch together, at the front or back of a Register book.
Middlesbrough The newspaper report for a George Craik dying in 1827, could well be the correct death -- it gives him an approx birth year of 1772 -- consistent with the marriage date of 1797 found by Jora. Thank you for that.
You have all been a great help and uncovered some wonderful information. I am SO appreciative. Thank you very much.
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A few months ago I received some great help from you regarding a Craik family from the Tweedmouth area.
I just thought I would give you some feedback. After completing that research, with your help - and as far as I could - I started on an associated family - and was advised by a kind Rootschatter that Northumberland and Durham Family History Society held several publications which may be helpful for this area. I purchased some, including the M.I.s for Tweedmouth, St Bartholomew Parish Church.
Amazingly there were indeed 2 gravestones for this particular Craik family, (whose baptisms had been so difficult ---and in some cases, impossible to find) in the Churchyard which had legible M.I.s.
One gravestone revealed George Craik (born about 1770) - had several more children than I had discovered. George was buried in the same grave along with his wife Margaret.
In the adjacent grave was his son, Nicholas, Stonemason - with 2 of his children, one of whom I hadn't found when searching for baptisms. Absolute gold-dust.
I am pretty amazed that this grave yard contains SO many legible gravestones for the 1700s and early 1800s. Hence if anyone else has early ancestors from Tweedmouth - the MIs booklet available for purchase from Northumberland and Durham Family History Society is worth buying. By coincidence the M.I.s were done by J & R Stone!
(I know I sound like an advert -but I am not from Northumberland/Durham, nor am I a member of the Society - I was completing this family history for a friend.)
Just a bit of feedback in thanks for all the help I received.
Regards June
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Really pleased that you have got more info.
Thanks for the feedback, its always interesting and useful to find out about how others have got the information.
Hope your run of luck continues :-)
Boo
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Hi,
This is a message for Pennines.
George Crake and Margaret Johnstone are my direct ancestors (they are my 5x great grandparents), I was just wondering whether you had any information I could look at? Have you managed to go any further back than these? What relation are they to your friend who you were doing the research for?
Thanks in advance and hope to hear from you soon.
Charlene
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Hi Charlene,
I'll have to look back on this as I passed all the research over --- I will be in touch with you as soon as I can.
Off the top of my head - I may not have got further back with George. May have info on Margaret though - but I did a write up of this family concentrating mainly on my friend's particular line.
Leave it with me -- I'll be back.
Regards
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Hi again Charlene --- I've had a quick look at the tree I compiled and George was my friend's 5 x Great Grandfather also.
I see that you are new to Rootschat - and as far as I know you cannot send or receive private messages until you have posted 3 'posts' on the normal board (such as this one).
Hence - if you reply to this message, -- saying (for instance) - which of George and Margaret's children you are descended from that will be your second post.
You then need a third one - so you could do another reply - just add a bit more information. I will then be able to send a private message, via Roots Chat to you - otherwise all other previous contributors to this thread will be getting fed up with receiving all this!!
I hope you can follow what I mean above.
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Hi, thanks for the quick reply. I descend from Robert Craik and Catherine Pratt
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I would be grateful for any informyou can give me 😊
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Might be wise to check out Berwickshire in the Scottish Borders - a few Craiks in the Swinton, Whitsome area - not far from Tweedmouth - also check Roxburghshire as Craik is a small hamlet nr Hawick
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Many thanks Terianne,
Such tips are really useful when you are unfamiliar with an area, as I was when I was doing my frirnds family history.
I did look at Scotland - on Scotlands People - there were several George Craiks born around the correct time - I was hoping to find one with a father Nicholas (the name of George's eldest son) - but I couldn't at that time.
I know 'Char1983' is hoping to get further back and will be interested in your message.
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Point to note with the name Nicholas was both male and female in the past
The female comes form Nichol's-lass aka Nicholas
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I never knew that - thank you. You have all sorts of information tucked away in your head!
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Not really - I had an ancestor who's wife was called Nicholas so I got curious
Also my Craiks come from the Swinton, Whitsome area
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Don't know if this relevant but I found the following
1881 Ld census - Wilton - 3 Wellington Place
Nicholas Craik 40 head - iron founder (journeyman) born England
Thomas Craik 9 son born Hawick
Jane Craik 34 wife born England
Jessie A Craik 4 daug born England
Mary L Craik 1month daug born Hawick
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Hi Terianne,
That's an interesting find. It looks like he is the son of a Richard Craik born about 1799 ish. Richard was also a Stonemason - like the Nicol/Nicholas b abt 1798.
Looking at the names of Richard's children - they almost mirror the names of Nicholas's children -- including an Archibald! On the face of it - Richard Craik may have been the brother of the Nicholas born 1798, son of George Craik and Margaret Johnstone.
I hadn't found a baptism for a Richard - but I did purchase a book of Memorial Inscriptions for the Church where George and Margaret were buried. There were other children buried with them - again whose baptisms I hadn't found.
The mother of the Nicholas you found was born Scotland - so I wonder if they had moved to her home town OR - could that location be linked to George Craik the father.... worth exploring.
Many thanks indeed for this information.
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Are you aware of the traditional Scottish & Borders naming patterns
Generally the pattern is the first son & second daug named after father's parents and the second son & first daug named after mother's parent then the names of the next generation back then the parents - also middle names are generally maternal surnames
Also when odd names appear check out the names of the local bigwig or minister
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Yes -- much like Ireland. I had looked for a George born in Scotland with a father Nicholas -- but without success. Maybe Nicholas wasn't the first born son - as finding the childrens baptisms seems to have been hit and miss at that time in that border location.
(It would be boring if it went smoothly!)
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I had a look for George in the Borders and found one which might fit
George Craik/Creak born 28 dec 1770 Ladykirk parents William Craik/Creak and Margaret Wightman
Ladykirk is across the swing bridge from Norham around 10-12 miles from Berwick / Tweedmouth
Also found a stone in Ladykirk /(upsetling) -
Thomas Creak son of William Creak, wright in upsetling 7.3.1790 21yrs , spouse Margaret Wightman 22.4.1794 67yrs
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Hi Terianne -- I am probably being really thick here -- but is 'upsetting' a place?
According to George Craik's Memorial Inscription he died on November 17th 1832 aged 60 years - giving him a birth year c, 1772. Although 60 years is a nice round figure, so might not have been his actual age at death - just an assumption by the informant!
His wife Margaret Johnstone was buried in the same grave - died Dec 28th 1851 aged 77 (hence a birth year of approx 1774). According to 1851 census she was born in Wooler?
I do thank you for going to all this trouble with this Craik 'brick wall'. I am not sure though that we will ever really know where he was born.
Many thanks once again for your help.
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Upsetling is an old name / part of ladykirk
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Must go to Specsavers! I was reading it as 'upsetting' and with the 'u' being in lower case I thought you meant that the stone in Ladykirk was upsetting. Thank you for clarifying that.
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Hi Terianne, i am just reading through your comments now and will see if i can do any further research. Im sure i came across the same possible record for Georges parents but couldn't be 100%. I have done my DNA on Ancestry so im hoping to get further results from that in the future too 😊
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George Craik born 1824 Tweedmouth died 6th December 1861 age 36/37 Tweedmouth.
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Hi Iris and welcome to Rootschat.
You are absolutely correct about the George Craik born 1824. I obtained his death certificate.
His wife was pregnant with their 7th child at the time. She remarried not long afterwards. I have a photograph of his gravestone from Tweedmouth Cemetery. The stone is quite impressive.
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Hi, George Craik was my great grandfather.
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Hi Iris,
I was doing the Craik family history for a friend of mine. It may be useful for you if I contact you by private message on this site -- but as far as I know you have to have had 3 messages on the normal Forum before you can have/send a private message (I might be wrong about that). So far you have only sent 2 messages.
Anyway -- if you reply to this message to confirm you would like me to contact you privately -- I can then send you a personal message via this site.
Regards June
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Hi June you can contact me.