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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Shiny1 on Monday 17 October 16 09:39 BST (UK)
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Hi All,
I'm quite new to this and am looking for a bit of help.
I have found a relative on the 1901 census who is 9 years old and living with his aunt and uncle in Cullercoats, Tyne and Wear (now). In 1911 he is still with them and on his military record he lists her as his next of kin.
What I'm wondering is without buying his birth certificate is there anyway I can find out who his parents were and what happened to them?
His name was Alfred Edward Hall and he was born on the 28th of August 1891. I'm guessing he would have been born in Tynemouth / North Shields area.
Thanks a lot,
Michael
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Hi Michael and a warm welcome to Rootschat.
I think in this case you will probably have to bite the bullet and purchase the certificate. If you do so do make sure that you buy from GRO. There is a birth registered in Tynemouth district for an Alfred Edward Hall Oct - Dec. 1891
William
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Welcome to Rootschat
Alfred Edward's birth was registered in Tynemouth Registration District in December quarter 1891 - Volume 10b, page 216.
Unfortunately Hall is a common surname in the area, and it would be difficult to guesstimate his parents. Did Alfred Edward marry Georgina English - Tynemouth September quarter 1916? The marriage would probably confirm his father's name.
You may have to bite the bullet and purchase a certificate. Snap Millmoor :)
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Welcome to rootschat :) lots of friendly & knowledgeable people here.
You shouldn't have to be 'guessing' his place of birth - if you have him on the 1901 & 1911 censuses - it will be given. Can you give the 1901 reference so we can look for ourselves?
Is it paternal or maternal aunt & uncle he is living with ie are they named Hall?
Have you tried familysearch/org [free] for a baptisms?
There are some times when a certificate purchase is the only way.....
Josey
Snap BumbleB & Millmoor you type quicker than me ;D
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Michael,
According to the two census you looked at he was born in Cullercoates (then Northumberland).
Peter
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His aunt Elizabeth was born in Blackpool
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Possible marriage for uncle & aunt
Marriages Dec 1898
ARMSTRONG Annie Tynemouth 10b 359
Howe Alfred William Tynemouth 10b 359
Seymour Elizabeth Jane Tynemouth 10b 359
WALTON John Joseph Tynemouth 10b 359
& a Hall - Seymour marriage in Durham
Marriages Dec 1895
Hall Thomas Edward Auckland 10a 358
Longhorn Hannah Auckland 10a 358
Peacock Joseph Auckland 10a 358
Seymour Emily Auckland 10a 358
ADDED: For the back burner
1871 RG10; Piece: 3956; Folio: 147; Page: 26 Bury Lancashire
William Seymour 48
Elizabeth Seymour 49
William Seymour 19
Henry Seymour 15
Charlotte Seymour 12
John Seymour 24
Hannah Seymour 21
Elizabeth Jane Seymour 11 Months b Blackpool grand daughter
Ignore all that now :)
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Hi Welcome to Rootschat
Alfred Howe / Elizabeth J Seymour
Marriage Dec 1898 Tynemouth 10b 359 Howe Alfred William / Seymour Elizabeth Jane
John Seymour Howe is the eldest son
Ray
Teach me to make a brew instead of posting. Well done Josey :)
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Haha now trying to find Elizabeth & Emily Seymour as sisters....
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In the 1891 census Alfred Howe has been transcribed as Hose and is in Cullercoates with parents John and Eliz F. Also in the household are his married sister Mary L Hall 20 and her husband John E Hall 21 b Newcastle, a grocer's assistant. Coincidence?
William
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A John Edward Hall married a Mary Lizzie Howe in 1st quarter 1891. A John Edward Hall aged 45 died in Tynemouth district in 1900.
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John Edward Hall married Mar 1891 10b/410 Tynemouth
Mary Lizzie Howe or Margaret Frazer Wren
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Great finds though the age at 1900 death of that John Edward Hall is a out.
A Mary Lizzie Hall died 1896 Dec quarter Tynemouth aged 25 10 b 86
Also a James Hall aged 0 Tynemouth Dec quarter 10 b 162a ??? Edited as the newspaper reports - see later posts - do not imply Mary died after childbirth.
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1881 – 5 Huddleston St, Cullercoates
John Howe, Head, Mar, 48, Baker, Newcastle
Eliza Foreman Howe, Wife, Mar, 42, Durham Felling
John Taylor Howe, Son, 14, Scholar, Durham Gateshead
Maggie B Howe, Daur, 12, Scholar, Durham Gateshead
Mary L Howe, Daur, 10, Scholar, Durham Gateshead
Alfred W Howe, Son, 5, Scholar, Durham Gateshead
Mary Taylor, Mother in Law, Widow, 62, Durham Felling
Margt A Bradley, Sister in Law, Widow, 40, Durham Gateshead
Annie M Bradley, Niece, 17, Durham Gateshead
Lizzie J Bradley, Niece, 9, Durham Gateshead
Margt Woods, Servant, 17, General Domestic, North Bedlington
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Report in Northern Echo 27 Nov 1896 - relating to a court case: a Mrs Elizabeth Howe, wife of John Howe confectioner of 13 Huddleston St & Mary Hall, her daughter wife of a provision merchant's assistant & living with her mother apart from her husband. Mary had 'been seduced' by the accused Ernest Richard Burlison of Darlington [a noted football player & a runner] & had become 'enceinte' so sent a letter asking for him to procure some pills.
Ernest tried to blackmail Mrs Howe with exposure about her daughter's pregnancies & abortions. He had letters from Mary [in March] saying she wanted a girl - 'no more bright bouncing boys speaking truth want none'. She became ill on Aug 25 & died 2 weeks before the court cse. Doctor said she had died or natural causes [report on 30 Nov says rheumatism followed by meningitis & coma] but Ernest wanted her body exhumed for proof of his case.
Can't yet find a report of the outcome of the case.
Hartlepool Northern Mail 9 Feb 1897 reports Burlisson 'disappeared'. Released on bail, he had not been seen for a couple of days then a coat with letters addressed to him was found on the banks of river Tees.
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There are a number of articles about the case in the Sheilds Gazette and elsewhere. Ernest Richard Burlison seems to have absconded,faked his suicide and then been arrested in South Africa in 1901 and retried. Search for Ernest Burlison and there are lots of articles. (Didn't see all of this coming when I made my first reply!).
William
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Search for Ernest Burlison and there are lots of articles. (Didn't see all of this coming when I made my first reply!).
He died in 1929 in Scarborough from lysol poisoning a couple of weeks after returning from S Africa & visiting relatives.
Can't wait for Shiny1 to come back & see all this :o
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Article in the Sunderland Echo 21 Feb 1902 states that "during the recent troubles (in S Africa) he rendered valuable service to the government". He was recognised in S Africa, extradited and went before the Durham Assizes and in November 1901 was practically acquitted of the original charge and received one day's imprisonment.He was then detained for the £100 of his personal bail. " Now, apparently he is held to have purged his offence".
William
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This might be John Edward Hall in the 1881 census:
Address 25 Beverly Lane, Tynemouth (Cullercoats).
Edward Hall 40 Master provision merchant b Sunderland
Elizabeth M Hall 39 wife b Felling
John E Hall son 10 b Newcastle (the relationship column is hard to read but may say son and heir)
Lettie Hall d 9 b Newcastle
Elizabeth Hall d 7 b Newcastle
Annie P Hall d 4 b Newcastle
Campbell Hall son 3 b Newcastle
William P Hall son 1 b Newcastle
Robert R Hall son 4 Months b Tynemouth
Jane Campbell sister in law unm 30 b Newcastle
Francis Franks servant 12 nurse
Thomasin Hardy servant 13 gen domestic.
From this assume that Edward Hall married Elizabeth Campbell.
You would need to obtain the marriage cert for John Edward Hall and Mary L Howe to confirm father's name. Edward Hall appears to have died in 1908 and left a will (see probate calendar). If the correct family this might help to identify the whereabouts of John Edward at that time.
William
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WOW! This is fantastic. Thank you all so much, I was hoping for places to try looking so this is way more than I expected to find.
I was in the local library at the weekend and have got a copy of Alfred's entry in the wedding register, I just haven't looked at it yet and to be honest hadn't realised it would have parents names on.
He married Georgina English on the 30th of September 1916. His address is given as 13 Huddlestone Street in Cullercoats and his father is listed as John Edward Hall (deceased) who was a commercial traveller.
So from that and the information you have all found I'm thinking his mother was Mary Lizzie Howe who was seduced by a runner / footballer while her husband was off on his commercial travels and became pregnant.
Her sister-in-law, Elizabeth Howe, wrote to him (maybe pretending to be her mother?) and he tried to blackmail them both, then faked his death running away to South Africa before eventually being caught and then dying from poisoning in 1929.
Mary died in early November 1896 from meningitis etc and then her husband, Alfred's father, died three years later in Tynemouth leaving him with his aunt and uncle.
Wow! and people ask why we do this family history research.
I know after this Alfred joined the army in 1914. He went into the Cheshire Regiment as RQMS and served with them until 1917 when he took a commission into the Lancashire Fusiliers. He stayed in until the end of the war when he left as a Captain.
I'm fairly sure the newspaper cutting I have at home shows him and his wife celebrating their golden anniversary so despite everything that happened to him as a child he turned out well.
Does that sound about right to you all?
Thanks again for the help,
Michael
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We've had fun with this one!!
Her sister-in-law, Elizabeth Howe, wrote to him (maybe pretending to be her mother?) and he tried to blackmail them both, then faked his death running away to South Africa before eventually being caught and then dying from poisoning in 1929.
Only this error: it was the 'seducer' who wrote to Elizabeth Howe, Mary's mother, blackmailing her. He had letters from Mary asking for him to procure some 'pills'. Elizabeth took him to court.
How nice to know that Alfred led a full life despite all. I wonder if he ever knew his mother's story himself?
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I would also change the "Subject" heading to include his full name which will attract family connections.
Annie
Added, Forgot to say, brilliant work by all & a great thread.
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I think it would be well worth reading the newspaper articles, Michael, if you have not already done so. It was a story which featured in papers all over the country with headlines like "Cullercoats Sensation".
For example the blackmail letter starts by saying "I have it in my power to remove Bet Seymour from Cullercoats".
Unless I have missed something I don't think a death for John Edward Hall has been established. I read the expression in the newspaper article that Mary Hall was "living apart from her husband" to mean that they were estranged but stand to be corrected on that one.
This has been a fascinating search (you could probably write a screenplay!) and I think shows Rootschat at its best with good teamwork. That was a great find in the newspaper archive, Josey.
William
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how can we find the articles please
looks fascinating reading
Thanks
N
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The newspapers are online at findmypast or http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/ - which are both subscription or pay per view sites.
Josey
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Unless I have missed something I don't think a death for John Edward Hall has been established. I read the expression in the newspaper article that Mary Hall was "living apart from her husband" to mean that they were estranged but stand to be corrected on that one.
I agree that John Edward Hall was probably alive in 1896, William. He may have moved away or even gone abroad after the case, in which case it may be difficult to trace his death. If it was recorded as 'John Hall' it will be almost impossible. Alfred was obviously taken in by his mother's family but whether that was because his father had died, we do not know. As you say, that 1908 will for Edward Hall would be worth consulting.
ADDED: Looking for a John Hall in the correct occupation I found
in 1901 RG13; Piece: 3989; Folio: 65; Page: 16 Lancaster
there is a John Hall manager in .... shop born Tynemouth
William C Pyne 20 licensed victualler
Sarah A Pyne 22
Fred Pyne 18
Gerty Pyne 10
Donald Pyne 19
John Hall 32 visitor single [but then he would say this wouldn't he?]
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A John Edward Hall married a Mary Lizzie Howe in 1st quarter 1891. A John Edward Hall aged 45 died in Tynemouth district in 1900.
This was the entry I was taking his death from, how do I find the probate? Is that on ancestry as I can get onto that.
I haven't looked at the newspapers, I was on a monthly subscription to find my past which ran out a week ago. I was going to leave it a while before renewing it - not any more.
Thanks again everyone,
Michael
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My feeling is that the 1900 death this John Edward Hall is too old. Worth trying to find a John Edward Hall b ca 1855 in the 1891 census not forgetting that many people did not put their middle initial on census returns. Your John Edward Hall is 21 in 1891 so born ca 1869-70.
ADDED: this is a possibility
Deaths Jun 1925
Hall John E 56 Newcastle T. 10b 104
however probate for a 29 Apr 1925 death of John Hall of 11 Elvet St, Heaton, Newcastle is granted to Hannah Hall widow effects £46 5s 10d. Sadly no occupation given.
Unrelated [wrong occupation] but there is a prison record in 1896 for a John Hall labourer born Newcastle aged 25 5 ft 2 in imprisoned for 1 month at Wakefield 'disorderly pauper destroying his own clothing' :(
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ms=ybe getsome help from aus relatives.who may well have some answers
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is this hall family around aberdeenshire tunriff,or turriff, cant remember its been so long since i was in contact with that branch of my family, but I would definately place the question on the australian board, you msy get the answers you are seeking, it must be over 20 yrs since I was looking, so cant reallly help possitively for sure/
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Might I suggest another trip to the library,Michael to see if you can locate the marriage of John Edward Hall and Mary L Howe.This would confirm fathers' names and occupations.
If Edward Hall does turn out to be John Edward's father the probate calendar can be accessed through either the HMRC site or Ancestry. The entry states:
Hall Edward of 30 Albany Gardens Whitley Bay Northumberland provision salesman died 13 Dec 1908.Probate 13 Jan 1909 Newcastle upon Tyne to Elizabeth Hall Annie Pearson Hall and Edith Jean Hall spinsters. Effects £416-16s.
To find it on the HMRC site put Hall as surname 1909 for year and scroll until you come to the correct one. You can order the will online (£10) and it should arrive as an e mail after a few days (the last one I ordered arrived after five days).
Hope this helps
William
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Genuki has in its Northumberland section transcriptions of death notices which appeared in the Newcastle Evening Chronicle from 1885 to 1906. Here are three:
Mary Lizzie Hall 14 Nov 1896 aged 25 Cullercoats.
Elizabeth Foreman Howe 20 Sep 1898 aged 60 Cullercoats.
John Howe 10 Oct 1898 aged 66 Cullercoats. (The probate calendar shows that John Howe also left a will - probate Newcastle 23 Dec 1898).
Cannot see a death for John Edward Hall in that source.
William
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Might I suggest another trip to the library,Michael to see if you can locate the marriage of John Edward Hall and Mary L Howe.This would confirm fathers' names and occupations.
Thanks William,
I've had a look on the council's website and found that there is a marriage registered in 1891 between a John Hall and Mary Howe. Unfortunately the certificate reference relates to a church that the library doesn't hold records for so I can't get at that certificate.
However, I have narrowed it down to the first quarter so I can sit and go through the local papers for those 3 months at the weekend and see if there is an announcement, fingers crossed there may be something there.
Michael
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also have a look around rurrif aberdeen, the hall family are a branch of n=my family and threy modtly lived around turriff, this includes mary craig and john hall. margaret forbes etc.
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Hi All,
I've been trying to tidy a few loose ends up on my tree and have ended up looking at Alfred Edward Hall on the 1939 register for the first time, I've found another twist in his story.
He has put his DOB as the 8th of April 1888, but his military service record has it as the 28th Aug 1891. Looking at the previous census and his ages on them I think his service record is probably his real DOB.
To thicken the plot his wife's date of birth was originally 9 Oct 1904 on the 1939 register but it has been corrected at some point to 1893, the year it should be according to previous census.
So both have changed their ages on the 1939 register. She had made herself 11 years younger than she was, he was 3 years older.
Anyone have any theories about why they would do this?
Michael
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have a look around rurrif, tough going rowards aberdeen that is where I am almost ceraain that they lived. before they disappeared off to ausrealia and carolina etc.
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Hi All,
I know this is an old thread but I've been revisiting the story and tying to neaten things up a bit, I thought adding to the thread might add some context to my question.
I have recently discovered that Alfred and his mother are buried together in Preston cemetery in North Shields. Alfred did die in 1929 in Herefordshire (although I still haven't worked out his connection with the farm he was at) but was brought home and buried with his mother just three days after his death.
I'm trying to put together his mother's blackmail story and have been putting parts on each person as far as they were involved, for example his grandmother has a bit sying she got the letter, took him to court but I can't put the final result on her story as she died before the trial.
I am thinking about adding the blackmailer to my tree, that way I can put the whole story in one place, I was wondering what people think.
Obviously he is not related so I was wondering has anyone else added someone unrelated to their tree and if so how do you mark the person as I would need to link him in some way.
Thanks for the help.
Michael