RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: brigidmac on Monday 24 October 16 03:08 BST (UK)
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Between 1901 and 1907 an English couple claiming to be married
Went round ENGLAND helping unmarried women, including several from Belfast.Ireland
. find quick comfortable placements for their babies .
They went under several names but were based in Liverpool. true names according to 1 newspaper were
Mr Leo Selwyn . Aka Harry Brown previously known to police
And miss Lottie Bourne waitress actress of Shrewsbury england
They also found childless couples who wanted a child of their own ..
And conveyed the children to them ..passing some off ?? as their own ??
Or just while staying at boarding houses in Manchester Cheltenham wherever
The newspaper ...had headline gripping headlines and articls appeared throughout the real
they were sentenced .tho Leo pleaded for leniency on Lotties behalf ...I thought sentence was harsh
.some babies mothers or receivers were traced ..so what happened to them were they taken off adoptive parents .made to redo christening and baptism documents or was status quo and discretion maintained and noonevthe wiser .
There are quite a few reports on this couple in various newspapers but I don't know how big a circulation
As for the untraced children ...who know they may be annoying MitrochondrDNA people everywhere because.
" You can never be sure about.
father but a mother is always a mother
Mr L attested to having persuaded miss L to start this enterprise because they met when she was pregnant and had been surprised by the responses to her advert to find a place to board ..nurse her baby ....as well as wetnurses she was contacted by childless couples willing to pay as much as £15 to cover costs
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I am particularly interested in the first birth baby of young Pretty Lottie {BOURNE./Evans /Roberts/smith )
Also I.d like to know if there were any Charlotte's or Lottie Bourne in Shrewsburye England is that in Shropshire ?
Births from 1880 to 1890
On censuses. 1881. 1891or 1901
Could resolve a mystery .for my family and others.
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Heres one of the reports
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4176824/4176826/30/
Does anyone think the lady pictured looks like either of the ladies on my avatar? I.ll try and post a better pic
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Hi Bmac,
I am particularly interested in the first birth baby of young Pretty Lottie {BOURNE./Evans /Roberts/smith )
Also I.d like to know if there were any Charlotte's or Lottie Bourne in S. .
Where exactly is "S"?
Annie
Added....OP has edited her post to include the info. needed i.e. my question was valid at the time of my posting.
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There was coverage of the trial in the Australian newspapers
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/175921678 5 August 1907 (noting this one gives date and place of birth of Lottie's first child as 19 November 1906, 122 Western Street, Swansea)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/175927327 6 August 1907
"When one of the children was produced, in court the female prisoner broke down and wept with apparent bitterness. The cause of her tears was understood when it transpired that this particular child was her own."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/208965972 24 August 1907
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/77842967 4 Sept 1907
I should note here that Liverpool and Swansea are also names of towns/cities in New South Wales, Australia.
JM
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I see now,
I.d like to know if there were any Charlotte's or Lottie Bourne in S. .
Where exactly is "S"?
Lottie Bourne waitress actress of Shropshire
Can you please refer to exactly what/where you mean when relating to subjects? :)
We read 100's of threads & don't do "text" abbreviation in that form, very frustrating when you go back to a thread to have to scroll back to find out what/where etc. as it's hard to recall all we read.
Thanks (in future) ;D
Annie
Added....OP has edited her post to include the info. needed since my posting.
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Sorry
Had to do it all from memory so posted place name as S
While checking article didn't want to get place wrong
Shrewsbury England
According to one artcle her own baby was born in 1906 ... (transcribe d as 1909)
I have some visual probe so type then check afterwards and also have eye strain when reading long texts
Hence wanting some help with this
Isn't trove great and this must have been a big scandal to reach Oz newspapers
It's early am here
I will reread your comments modify my post if not clear
Read all the links
And get back to you ...the woman on my avatar may be Lottie Bourne s daughter ..do you think there is any resemblance
I.ve been trying for two days to learn to post pics on here
The reason
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Appreciate the smiley faces with the corrections Annie
it's looking more and more likely to be my ggma Charlotte Roberts..the baby doing well with foster parents could have been my Nana maisie .
Tho that was year her foster mum died the foster grandparents were kindly souls and another daughter lived next door so maisie have"cousins"
The baby who caused her to cry in court could be the respectable son referred to in a letter of rejection from Charlotte to her birth daughter when she was traced
I will try and post link to the thread about disappearing G BMW
She said she was respectabley married with a son
I suppose she may have meant respectable now her prison service was over ....maybe she got her son back ..or had another
First we need to prove that there was no such person as Lottie bourne or find the identity of this particular baby ....can calculate a close birth date ...
The oz papers are better written than the one with the pic ...easier to follow
Brit sleuths will be waking up now and on the case !
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Here is the link to looking for. Charlotte Roberts
The refs to Lottie Bourne occur on page 9
I was sure her age had been given as 20 somewhere
But no I've seen the description from a 1907 newspaper saying her baby had been born in 1907 I know to take a dollop of salt with dates ...of course I would love a time travelling great gma
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Bmac,
It's always good to refer to place names such as Shrewsbury as well as County names such as Shropshire & even England as there are places abroad with place names as well as County names which are same ::)
Plenty of RC'rs can find things but having to google where places are is time consuming, more so when it's under the heading of "Common Room" i.e. no clue where in terms of geography :)
As JM mentioned earlier, there are many places around the world with English/Scottish etc. town names which can be confusing too.
I apologise, I didn't realise you had vision problems, I now 'see" what you meant ;D
Will check Avatar.
Annie
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Ha, my sight fails me now, Avatar too small ::)
Like your post 'Computer incompetent but still trying'!
We've all been there & still are!
Get used to something having picked up the navigation, format, knowledge, speed etc. then they change it supposedly for the 'better' ???
I'm still wondering who the 'better' are, as it doesn't include me having yrs of comp experience ;D ::) ???
Annie
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I know what u mean about importance of places but Id been trying to post all day and rushed to do it before bed so you geniuses across the water could get teeth into it
But some people rush to do the searches before they get details
I recommend asking people what they know already before starting a search
This was a strange case cos I didn't want to muddy waters linking to our Charlotte if it wasn't her
But now it also links with charlotte Pearcy the actress
Not necessary to apologise. you all do such amazing work I can understand frustration if you believe you are on wild goose chase
I thought it was obvious that places were in GB as the post starts that they went all over England
And so they hadn't been doing it since 1901 ....
Ten babies or more for there were the ones not admitted to in 3 years is still a lot
My link p to disappearing nana is it on here now ..??
Helpful phenomenon is transcribe ing the Brit news reports to put on here ...a mammoth task I think but she's willing to do it !
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Bmac,
The link to other thread hasn't been posted on this thread.
I was following a request a wee while ago regarding somewhere abroad & England being mentioned.
The place name as an example was something like 'Middlesex' or 'London' so I was researching England but the place was as I say an example (Canada) as there are both in Canada as well as England.
The poster hadn't stipulated clearly enough ::)
Annie
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=702286.0
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They made the welsh papers too, her is an article giving Lottie Roberts age as 20 years
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3808129/3808135/89/baby%20exchange
Did she do the 8 months hard labour?
GenesReunited paysite articles http://www.GenesReunited.co.nz/searchbna/results?memberlastsubclass=none&searchhistorykey=0&keywords=baby%20exchange
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Thanks whiteout we don't know what became of Charlotte
This is all very new our Charlotte would have been 28 in 1907 and this Charlotte certainly looks older than 20
Also the baby that Charlotte cried about in court was bornn1906 and the detailed report of court case form trove said she'd been in this condition before and had found a nice home for her baby .
the family my adopted nan was put in were not rich but sympathetic towards saving children from a work house fate the grandad Samuel Hallis been brought up in one himself in 1840
Charlotte had maisie in Dec 1899 aged 19
And she must have stayed with her til at least march when maisie was baptised
The fact that the court case refers to her as Charlotte Roberts is a good indication that it was her legal name ...someone from Liverpool or Birkenhead could have identified her
Starting to ask people about family likeness..I didn't see any at first but other family members are saying she does look like her daughter and 1 granddaughter
Someone even thinks if I had dark hair I would resemble her .
So the clues are adding up ...and maybe a prison record with an address of destination will help .
In an hour I.ll phonevWirrel record office to order orig birth cert .exact date may help find her on 1939 register tho if her noteriety reached Australian papers she may have wanted to get far away and use her stage name or alias or marry.
Hanging onn tenterhooks here and eyes are straining so mustn't go on computer too much
Need to keep family up to date too
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The earliest reference I can find to Leo Selwyn is in The Era (3rd June 1899). I can't find any reference to Lottie Roberts except in conjunction with the baby trafficking case.
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well done I wonder if they got back together after their hard labour sounds as if he really cared for her.and helped her when she was pregnant with another man's child .
But maybe she couldn't bear to admit she was 6 years older .
No sign of asuitable Charlotte Roberts or Bourne B circa 1886. So far
And all Birth baptism and 1891 census for our Charlotte Roberts.
Mum is warning me not to get too excited cos she had researched the wrong Charlotte roberts for 6 years ....visiting hoardings graves in sales and houses shed livid in in Birkenhead nr Liverpool a dressmaker B 1878 who was on 1901 census
Re the place names wonder why the Brisbane telegraph didn't specify that the town's were England
Don't know the whereabouts of their homonyms in Oz but imagine the distance would be too great to pick up a baby in one town and deliver it to another in less than 2 days ! And collecting girls from Belfast on the ferry
More questions than answers ! Some things we.ll just never know
Knowing she was an actress pre 1906 links her with being the actress agee 20 Lottie Percy on 1901 census
Wonder which prisons they were sent to
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The baby lottie farmed out and was her own may well have been Edith Roberts aged 10 in 1917 in north
pH en found an article about an abused step daughter in news paper
If Lottie registered this baby in her own name before farming her out. There will be a 1906 birth certificate for Edith poss Liverpool depending where the couple were staying that month
Happy hunting and thanks ...I.m already celebrating the finds !
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Bmac,
Please tell us where "north pH en" is :-\
Annie
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Sorry can't see very much today sorry
pH .....was a accident when I was trying to type place name
Its from memory I can't find where orig article is let alone read it
When I can get a friendly pair if eyes to come round and type and read for me I will promise
Thanks for all the help so far .
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The abuse case with little Edith was not in England it was an example sent to open sorry
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a young couple were taken to court for arranging adoptions throughout England in 1907
Some witnesses came forward and testified that the babies had been placed in good homes
Others under anonymity said they.d given their babies to be boarded by this respectable looking couple not knowing that the child would be passed to another couple .
i.Ve read various articles about the case ...Babies were transported from Lincoln to St pancreas
St pancreas to Sheffield
Altrincham to Lincoln
Chester to Halifax
With the couple being based at Swansea in Nov 1906 . Bristol from march 1907 then Liverpool
I.m wondering if the adoptive couples would have been able to register the baby under their own names
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If the children were newborns requiring nursing then perhaps, but if it was an older baby they might not bother. I don't know if birth certificates were required for anything at that time but I would suspect not.
If the children were adopted at least they had better luck that some children, who would go into boarding, the people would accept the money for their care and then the poor little mites would be got rid of to make room for more children! Sadly that was a thing.
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The links to the articles are on this topic
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=758108.msg6083495#msg6083495
It looks like they managed to transfer the babies quite quickly despite the distances and I.ve no idea if any of the children were removed from their adoptive families....There doesn't seem to be any follow up articles after the guilty verdict .
Lottie Roberts own baby was probably the first to be placed with a married couple
the birthdate given in the article is 19th November 1906 ,Swansea Wales
Could this be the "prepossessing little girl" presented in court by a witness from Hammersmith..
Or the child taken to Ollerton whose adopter came to court to request that the case be dropped ??
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Yes they were newborns ....
Herbert Smith and Lottie Roberts went through a complicated process using false names they took money for boarding out the babies and in some cases paid a couple to take the child then stopped payment s .....People who.d taken the child in as a boarder could easily send it to a workhouse if payments stopped .
But it seemed like they mostly found childless couples .
If someone was doing DNA tests now they.d have no way of knowing these connections
I.m amazed the court found any of the single mothers to testify
They also had to prove that they hadn't killed a baby from Grimsby ....It turned up safe and well in Lincoln .
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They started off this enterprise when looking for a place to board out her own baby while on tour as entertainers
At first Mrs Phillips their landlady in Swansea was paid 4 s a week to care for the child .
They also helped another unwed mother their friend .
to obtain a job so she too could afford to pay for placement of her baby
Whether Herbert Smith and Lottie Roberts took money from her themselves is unclear but when they started doing it as a business they used aliases and postal address es
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There were 20 babies altogether
The only adopter named in what I've read so far is mrs Bell.
Correction mrs Ball....Huge apologies wrong transcription
Mrs Ball of Neath who took Lottie's daughter into care early 1907 I hope she got to keep her as she came to court with the baby to show how well she was cared for
The only birth mother named is lily Kitchen of Grimsby who's own mother went to the police to retrieve the £11 which had been handed over with her 14 day old grandson
Did Lily take back her son from the lincoln family ? and look after him well?
What happened to the babies ?
I.ll request for these two topics to be merged
Topics merged.
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Have been trying to find Bell families Neath in 1901 and 1911 with help.
Should have been looking for Ball families !!!
There is a William Bell with second wife Ella and children plus step children
So one candidate is Elsie Bell aged 5 in 1911 I Neath parish but not Albert row I've been told not seen actual census
Another candidate is Ellen Gertrude b 1907 in margam Neath 1911
This is only valid if the child took on the Bell name
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SUMMARY of TOWNS babies .Came + went to
A boy close in age to Lottie s baby ie late 1906 b.Swansea. taken to Bath
I think his mother was Herberts friend whod threatened suicide til they helped her find work
Baby. born Altrincham taken to Lincoln
Another born Lincoln taken to St pancras
A st Pancreas baby went to Sheffield
Chester to Halifax
Two other babies were taken to Bath
One. to Mold in
Witness at court case also came from Ollerton the birth father who was paying maintenance
Witness from Hammersmith. I think was Mrs Ball who brought baby Jessie with her
s quite a logistics operation Hebert and Lottie were on tour I Dec 1906 as a conjuror and actress
the babies must have disappeared between Jan 1907 and their custody on remand 20th may
They have Bristol based addressin March
settIing in Liverpool where arrested where they were taken to court and imprisoned
Lily Kitchen/ Kitching baby given up at 14 days old was finally found alive and well in Lincoln
Apparently there were 20 babies altogether
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The court records seem to be out of chronological order
Found on FindMyPast for Herbert Smith and Lottie Roberts
The warrants were 21 st + 25 th June 1907
Crimes committed from 16. Th april
And another crime was listed for Dec 1907 when they would both still have been serving hard labour
Yet British newspapers from may 24 th ewer reporting charges" of deception and suspicion of causing death" from may 24 th 1907
This was lily Kitchen/ kitchings baby from Grimsby
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Have seen 2 of the original adverts placed in Leeds mercury
Lady without children would like to adopt strong healthy baby
entire surrender
premium £15
Good home "
The first was on 22 Jan 1907 contact was Jessie Baker 5 Tudor St Cardiff
Same wording on 30 mar 1907 but Mrs Isdale Liverpool
Not seen any ads asking for a child to be cared for yet
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I've not used credits to open all the news account s
But can see that there are some worrying phrases in British newspapers
May 20th 1907
Charged with having caused death
June 1st
Child traced to workhouse infirmary
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It was the Grimsby baby that was reported dead
This child of Lily Kitchen turned up safe and well in Lincoln
I posted specifically about lily kitchen on the Lincolnshire forum
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=761749.0
clever Cath came up With
Henry Leighton Kitchen living with his grandparents Tom and Francis Kitchen in 1911
As they have a daughter called Lily
This seems most likely
Lily must have registered her baby when it was returned from all its adventures ...i don't know I he was the one who turned up in a workhouse infirmary according to an Irish newspape
Lily also baptised .Harry Leighton Kitchen ( FindMyPast.)
My ggrandma registered her daughter before boarding her out in 1900.
Giving baby the middle name of her birth father
And baptised her with a different middle name 3 months later when child maintenance had been court ordered
Lottie Roberts/Bourn and Herbert Smith registered her child
Swansea Jessie Smith 19/11/1906
He denied being the father at the trial saying she was already pregnant when they met
But according to Lottie's testament they had been travelling together for several years
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Some development on theCheshire forum too
Whether The Lottie Roberts in the news was my great grandma or not ...
Here's WHAT HAPPENED to HER baby
Registered as Jessie Smith born 19/11/1906
Boarded out then unofficially to a childless couple
Who asked to keep her permanently
Brought to court June 1907 charmingly attired by Mrs Ball
Living with the Balls 1911. As Jessie Smith aged 4
I hope the other babies had happy outcomes too
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The lady who helped my mum on this research using Ancestry. will be joining my mother and I on the 19th ...So hopefully she can join in the thing up of the loose ends on Lottie's babies ....The others are someone else's brick walls .
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so what happened to leo? did you find out?
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No I haven't had time to look into him but hopefully mum's Ancestry friend will be able to help me with that on weds
Do you think he was jesse Smiths birth father ....In court he said Lottie was already pregnant when they met ....But another article said they'd been travelling together for years .
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Have looked at a few crime pages for Herbert Smith ....Only one conjuror....Most of the crime reports are by a London blacksmith not the same man
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My mother is particularly interested in what happened to Jessie Smith as this would be her aunt
Did he take on the Ball surname did she marry and have children ? ..If so DNA could prove whether her mother Lottie (Bourne),Roberts
Was our Lottie Roberts B 1881'Birkenhead
Mothe R of Maisie Roberts adopted daughter of Hallis family 1911
Adoption was not a legal term this early
I wonder whether prison records would show her release address perhaps a connection with Lottie's sister Mary Irvine who was managing the estate of their recently deceased father John Roberts
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Stuck in. 1906 and 1907
I don't know where to look for the prison records or what became of Herbert Smith and Lottie Roberts after their prison terms that would have taken them inton1908 if served fully
I can't find any other babies names or adopters
I typed out a sentence in my sleep I think .....I've sleep walked and talked before but not sleep researched !
Have modified
Apologies
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Hi Brigidmac, I'm sorry but I don't understand your last post. :)
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Sorry frosty
I didn't understand it either ..Fell asleep with tablet in my hand ...So it must have made sense to me at the time ..I.ve modified it .
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;D I've come close to doing that myself on occasion.
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Update
I believe more and more that this Lottie Roberts was my ggmother. Can you see family likeness from my avatar
Consensus is that she looks a bit older than 20
By the time she came out of prison 1908 her own daughter Jessie smith would have been well and truly established with Mr and Mrs Ball who were initially paid to care for her and "expressed a desire to keep the child"
On 1911 Census Jessie Smith was adopted daughter of Mr Ball but had retained the surname she was registered under ( birth father Herbert Smith )
Where would she go after prison ..?
My Lottie was a drapers assistant in 1899. So using half the money from her father's estate she could have set up in business and become a costumier
1911 in Conway ...
Charlotte Roberts single aged 30 b.Liverpool
Living alone in a house with several rooms
She's my best bet would still like to obtain the prison records ..For an address or name of who she was going to
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kept in custody during trial ??
If so would that time have been taken off the 8 months hard labour sentence
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So far no-ones come up with how we can ger recordsa from Waltham Gaol Liverpool
but I'm sure someone will
My mother is getting books out of library and researching child trafficking in General
(i must give priority to job hunting + career development but am keeping an eye open on this topic )
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I presume you mean Walton Gaol Liverpool. Where was she tried? Also was it as Petty Sessions or Quarter Sessions? The reason I ask is that there are records for Kirkdale Petty Sessions which may hold more information.
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oh wow ..thanks Gibel ..i dont know where she was tried I passed all my information on to my mum ..I'll ask her to reread what the newspapers said + i'll look for the prison record i found .on FindMyPast..
wouldnt have thought it was petty sessions as it was such a big international scandal ..but who knows
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Are Kirkdale petty sessions available on line please ...I couldn't find them
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Update .
No prison records available from Waltham gaol
Court records only give dates known already
It looks like adopted Jessie Smith born Nov 1906 may have married fred greenbank
I can't find any children for that marriage
Mum has taken DNA test but we would need other grandchildren of Charlotte Roberts/Smith/Bourne
To see any links
Or ...of Herbert Smith and
Mr Anonymous who married Charlotte and had a son with her
( letter from Charlotte to her first birth daughter Maisie b 1899 asked her not to contact her again because her respectable son not knowing her past)
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Hello!
I work for BBC Shropshire and writing about the story for a history feature which will air in a week or two.
Very keen to learn more about what happened to the babies. I would love to track down and speak to a living descendant. Is someone able to talk to me about it?
I see brigidmac has been heavily involved..
Kind regards
Richard Tisdale
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Just seen a friend request on
Messenger ...wondered who you were
It would be great to get the story aired
Will pm you
B
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I am trying to add the URL to the thread about the actors
The court cases
The Grimsby child
Nana's story ..they should all contain links to the relevant subjects but there will be repetition
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=702286.0
I will find my notes about the names mentioned in the court cases ...Mrs Ball was the lady who adopted Jessie
There is a Jesse smith born 1906 who married Fred greatbanks a relative on ancxxxty didn't think they.d had any children
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Hi Richard
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
you'll need to post again to access the personal message brigidmac has sent you
http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
Dawn
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See attached an avert for Leo performing at Gloucester..,I'll send another post with an ad for the baby trafficking
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ADVERT FOR BABY WANTED
Leeds Mercury - Thursday 28 March 1907
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Amazing discoveries
Richard thanks so much
..I knew these existed ..on Genes Reunited site and maybe elsewhere
but can no longer afford premium membership thanks so much for posting ....were they from information on my sources or your own digging ??
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Would you mind posting which newspapers they are from and dates ..so I can cross them off my list of news references
I
Oops reference is on attachment there are other adverts like this in different nparts of GB
I found the Newport ones
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I found them from my own digging on the British Newspaper Archive. the dates and appers are on the posts.
There's so much on the newspaper archive. I;ll be doing a 5 day series on the radio covering the story the week after next on BBC Radio Shropshire.
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Oops sorry .the newspaper s are named in URL under attachment
I hope that wasn't your work today cos I could have given you those refs. Just couldn't see full image
What does without encumbrance mean please
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Richard can I send you pm s on here now or is your message box still full
I saw you in chat room a bit ago but you got timed out
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Friends and I have decided encumbrance may mean children
So she wants a baby cos she isn't already encumbered
Does anyone else have an alternative meaning ??
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There is a Jesse smith born 1906 who married Fred greatbanks a relative on ancxxxty didn't think they.d had any children
That marriage church record between Fred Greatbanks and Jessie Smith is on Ancestry and the bride has left all her fathers details blank, so could well be the right person.
I can't see a divorce (closed for 100 years I think) but Jessie 'Smith or Greatbank' later married Albert E Lincoln in Manchester in 1956. Fred seems to have remarried to an Esther Shaw in 1955. Jessie seems to have died in Manchester as Jessie Lincoln in 1972 (10e/203) giving a birth date as 31 Aug 1906 . This fits with the birth reg in Swansea in Dec 1906.
Did you ever buy the Jessie Smith birth cert ? or do you know her birth date from the newspapers.
Can't find any children born to this Jessie Smith/Greatbank/Lincoln.
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There are also adverts placed in papers for a lady desiring to place her baby with a family
CAN ANYONE FIND THOSE ADS ?
PLEASE
THEY EXIST ON Genes Reunited BUT DIDNt have funds to open them.
herbert + lottie are said to have met 18 months earlier in Shrewsbury which would be about april 1905 april . Hull daily news 23rd may 1907 says Lottie bourne had been travelling with Smith for many years so WHY WOULD HE DENY BEING THE FATHER OF LOTTIE's chld in court ?? His name was on regietration
again I didnt obtain her birth cert .due cost + my mother followed the wrong Charlotte Roberts for ten years so wants more proof that is is the same lady this time ...the mug shot convinces me ..
according to various news accounts he had a friend who was in despair threatening to throw herself in the Mersey rather than take her child to the workhouse ..Lottie reassured her that good families could be found where she could board her baby ...and she herself had a child who was well cared for ....
MY grandmother Maisie b1900 boarded with an elderly couple in 1901 and using their name as adopted daughter" in 1911
HER costs were covered by the weekly payments made by the birth father by court order
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Brigid,
As has been mentioned previously & from a direct view too, that BC is what you need as that is what will clinch it i.e. no more wondering but it will also give an address as well as parentage & exact date of birth & who registered the birth....was it he or she :-\ ???
Annie
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Am perfectly aware of that Annie.. excuse the wording I will revise punctuate etc when back on computer
I
am absolutely sure that Jessie Smith IS the daughter of criminal s herbert + Charlotte the performers /child placers
but as they were using alises hopping between addresses to avoid being found by women wanting to reclaim their babies or boarding families who hadnt been paid
separating the lying the acting +the true details is a task for local super sleuths
the birth cert wouldn't necessarily help in this case .the registration gives exact date which corrosponds with what all newspapers say .mother's maiden name is Bourne one of Lotties stage names or her real name ??
Also her 1911 census with the adoption couple Elizabeth and. ball has her as adopted child Jessie smith age 4
Also as I tried to explain research has to be done that this her mother is NOT a different Charlotte Roberts /Bourne from Shrewsbury born later than my great grandmother.
born in 1881 birkenhead who's certificates we do have
I know this is complicated to follow ..
in any other circumstance NO_ONE would follow the child of someone with a different birth year and allegedly different birth place.
At first we believed this was just a co-incidence of names
Luckily Radio shropshire is now on the story ..looking for the other babies + thier descendents
IF Jessie does have blood relatives maybe DNA will prove the missing link ..My Charlotte also had a son later + was respectably married according to a letter she wrote to the grown up Maisie
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So she wants a baby cos she isn't already encumbered
Does anyone else have an alternative meaning ??
My understanding (in short)...No ties.
I haven't 'googled' what it says after 'Write'...is 'Isdale' her name or address & is '60' her age or house no? :-\
Have you found her on 1911 census?
Annie
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IF Jessie does have blood relatives maybe DNA will prove the missing link ..My Charlotte also had a son later + was respectably married according to a letter she wrote to the grown up Maisie
Brigid,
Sorry I haven't had time to digest everything but when was the letter sent (year), where from & where to as this could help find that 'respectable' marriage ???
Annie
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Forgot to say....
I bet it won't be too long before there's a Film on this story....guaranteed!!! ;D
Annie
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If the newspaper article is on Genes Reunited, then it will also be available from FindMyPast who are hosting the British Newspaper Archive in association with the British Library.
You need a subscription to access them from any of the sites.
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Thanks dawn and for your earlier post which in my manic rush this am I forgot to respond to
Yes Ros the end of advert was one of their known addresses and mrs Isdale was an alias
One of several
I have answered Ros in pm re my great grandmother s letter to grandma found in her papers after death
The disappearing nana topic is on the Cheshire boards very long and also includes the 1901 Birkenhead born Lotty the actress .
Will attempt to copy and paste links
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From Leeds mercury 22 Nd Jan 1907
Advert
Lady without children would like to adopt strong healthy baby entire surrender premium £15 good home write Jessie Bourne 5 Tudor street Cardiff
Same paper same wording 30 march 1907
Mrs Isdale 60 isleton liverpool
There are so many articles about the case was impressed that the first I heard of this event it was Australian papers that I saw first .
Now where are those babies wanting homes adverts hiding
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Am trying to create a neat chart of what we know about which babies ..is gender . where taken from date o/age name and relation of witness at trial where taken too and name of adoptees or birth families
I don't think I noted where couple were living in each case but if they baptised any more of the children that would be useful
Though they were based in Liverpool a lot ..when not touring .
Might have to be a photo shot of my notes for now .
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How do I type this into a neat chart
Richard ..do you take dictation s ?
If anyone finds any other information about the babies they could fill in the gaps
I.m convinced there were more Irish ones
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FROM THE PAPERS - They took babies from mothers in Leeds, Lincoln, Charlton Kings, cheltenham, Wetheridge in Devon, Chester Dewsbury, Chesterfield, Whickham, worcester, Bath and Wendesfield Staffordshire. grimbsby alrinchham, Ollerton.
Where taken to list ....Neath, Hammersmith, Bath at pancras (place of exchange ) Lincoln Halifax Mold Flintshire, Sheffield.
Thanks to Brigid for helping to compile.
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The list of where they were taken to is being typed up ...I think at pancreas was just a train station where some babies were exchanged to save train fares
Lottie (and Herbert) deliberately advertised babies at a town distant from where they said they were living ..i.m wondering if they weren't based in Liverpool above the sweet shop for a lot of the time but Herbert made use of the postal boxes innCardiff Manchester Neath Leeds etc whenever he was touring
Super sleuths out there .I think their friend who gave birth to oneof the first babies a boy , may hold a clue .I suspect she was an actress too .was sheca witness ? Did Herbert father her baby and Lotties ? That would be a good reason to insist he was not the father of Lotties baby Jessie
Another thing anyone who has access to old films there was another court case involving this pair which never went to trial ..about theft of cinematography films ..they may well have featured on the film's themselves and disputed ownership
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The radio episodes were fantastic
I was confused edge of my seat Eve n tho I knew the ending
And of course feel a little defensive of Lottie .(...may have found someone who links us via DNA)
I only knew about one baby goingbto workhouse .i thought they mostly looked for childless couples to adopt the love babies ....not making payments to a childminder was a risky business ..because theY were likely to be pursued
Richard could you put the linknfrom your blog please and to the radio catch up ..there is a lot of interest in this storyb
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Our CHARLOTTE Roberts proved by DNA married in 1902 and had legitimate baby Micheal Eric Benjamin in 1906
Which almost certainly rules her out from being the baby trafficker
But I am still interested in finding out more about the babies
Also in USA there are 3 other people who have a match with the two who have CHARLOTTE as mutual gmother
None of the surnames match ....but maybe they need to go back another generation
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I've written the story up in my blog - there's also a podcast attached.
Here's part 1 of the story - for the other parts follow the links.
https://newsfromthepastblog.wordpress.com/2017/06/26/1907-britains-most-prolific-baby-traffickers-caught-in-liverpool-part-1/
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It's a great listen ....very well written a pleasure to read even if I think it's a bit harsh on the couple .
..I remain sympathetic regardless of whether she was my relative or not ...I still believe only 1 child was in workhouse and there was only one hostile witness who testified to a child being ill and cold on arrival ...was she the same lady who took the child to workhouse when payments didn't arrive ?
I don't know if DNA will solve mystery of any of the other babies ..
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I can't get over how alike the Charlotte in papers is to.me
One newspaper talked of a baby boy almost same age as Jessie. .I'm wondering if this could have been Michael Eric Benjamin was he acruelly a twin
Lottie legalitarian marrived Edwin hymen BENJAMIN
But as he went to an asylum . Was wondering for if
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Re reading this 2016 topic due to renewed interest
I see that I didn't finish the last sentence & was having computer and or visual problems
So Lottie married Edwin BENJAMIN who was twenty years older than her and stayed in an asylum shortly after his son was born .
So I fact our Lottie could have continued placing babies .
Jessie BALL never had any children .(# not Fred !)
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The baby of lily Kitchen lived with his grandparents ..maybe one day we.ll find out what happened to others I do hope they had good lives
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Jessie BALL never had any children .Fred Kithen lived with his grandparents
Brigid, can you tell us about Fred Kithen please as this is the 1st mention of his name?
The only Fred on this thread was Fred Greatbank(s).
Annie
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Oh dear
I'm sure the Kitchen /Kitching baby wad named somewhere
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I mixed up first name it was a
You are right Fred Greatbanks was Jessie Smith's first husband
I.ll have to read whole thread to find first name *baby Harry
was the son of lily kit hen whose grandmother reported the couple when she didn't get second payment
Newspapers reported baby as dying in workhouse but that was untrue
Baby not named in any articles.
the radio show was brilliant did anyone hear it ?
Richard tisdale & team identified lily kitching s parents and found "baby H" living with them in 1911
He married and has living grandson + whose son & myself
were interviewd on the radio show
The blog with pics is amazing too.
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Brigid, this is what you posted...
"Henry Leighton Kitchen living with his grandparents Tom and Francis Kitchen in 1911"
Annie
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Thanks Annie
&
I'm trying to do 3 things at once and internet particularly slow
He's not on any trees because not related .
Thanks for your enthusiasm .help and patience following this story since 2016 !
Neverdidfind anymore about actress Lottie pearcey b Birkenhead 1881
Or Shropshire Lottie /Jessie Bourne b 1906...mother of Jessie
Were they one and same person as Charlotte Roberts 1881 mother of maisie Fellman ROBERTS 1899 + Eric
Michael BENJAMIN / (later BENNETT) b 1906
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Heres one of the reports
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4176824/4176826/30/
Does anyone think the lady pictured looks like either of the ladies on my avatar? I.ll try and post a better pic
brigidmac
Can you supply a bigger copy of your avatar photo? (e.g. email me one?)
I've read the newspaper report and it definitely does sound like England (e.g. it mentions Bedminster, Bristol).
I used to work in Shrewsbury Shropshire UK.
I will search for Lottie and report back.
D x
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Here is the link to looking for. Charlotte Roberts
The refs to Lottie Bourne occur on page 9
I was sure her age had been given as 20 somewhere
But no I've seen the description from a 1907 newspaper saying her baby had been born in 1907 I know to take a dollop of salt with dates ...of course I would love a time travelling great gma
brigidmac
There's a Lottie J Bourne (indexed as Lottie S Bourne elsewhere but the J is prob. correct)
1891 census she's with James + Mary Bourne (James is carpenter)
1901 also same parents
Earlier census she seems to be born Shrops aged 6 but later one aged 16 it says born London, and there's also another younger child born Lancs...
This is WROCKWARDINE which is Telford/Wrekin area but would most definitely include Shrewsbury Salop/Shrops as a place you 'came from'...
I have no idea how to show the links back to the censuses but I've looked at them on Ancestry just now.
D
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Thanks for your interest Dulcie and
For your offer of facial recognition help
At the time i posted it was a different close up profile of my grandmother
I.ll send you the link to my ancestry tree so you can see photos
Or via email
Update : look at the bbc blog by Richard Tisdale in reply 79
He did contact me a while back because there was going to be a TV show about this story but another story got chosen instead .
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Thanks for your interest Dulcie and
For your offer of facial recognition help
At the time i posted it was a different close up profile of my grandmother
I.ll send you the link to my ancestry tree so you can see photos
Or via email
Update : look at the bbc blog by Richard Tisdale in reply 79
He did contact me a while back because there was going to be a TV show about this story but another story got chosen instead .
May not be any help but there's a marriage 1908 of a 'L.J.' to a J. Hirschmann in London, the 1911 census gives the wife as L.J.Hirschmann
The man says he's German
There's an older female relative with them called ROBERTS...
(apologies I'm working from memory, will go back to the records shortly)
Therefore it seems to be a female L.J.Roberts who married him...?
L[ottie] J?
The husband of 3 years is working as a waiter at Grand Hotel
L.J. Hirschmann's birthplace is given as Oswestry Shrops, however when you're changing your name all the time but want to preserve some truth (which is instinctive), then Oswestry holds the same weight as Shrewsbury as a Shropshire town.
There is a descendant of this marriage in someone's tree on Ancestry. Fred? I will go back and check.
D
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We found our charlotte in 1911 +on boats to USA and back around Ww1 + in 1939 + her legitimate grandson filled me in on bits of her life
Tho we dont know where she was between march 1900 and 1905
So i didnt persue Shropshire Charlotte tho i do have a tree for her adopted daughter Jessie Smith became Ball
There are no living descendants from my research .
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ive decided to add Harry Kitchen and his line as a floating branch to Adopted Jessie Smith tree on ancestry
his descendants knew nothing of his story
i could also add any of the other names of birth fathers or mothers that were included in the news report
for anyone who strongly believes their ancestor is one of these babies ..
coming across an unexpected name cluster or strong unexpected irish ethnicity
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/108808668/family?cfpid=420096779255
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i cant find my original research on the Kitching family
i know i found harry/henry with his grandparents
*But found information leading to a living descendant now.
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ive found the kitching family in 1891 Lily was 2 and had 4 siblings Flossie James H annie +Rose
father Tom was a labourer
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news reports were published in wales and as far as australia
im trawling through them again to find any names of witnesses tho i know they were mostly kept secret
i.ll write a summary as the topic is long and some theories can be dismissed
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/175927327
heres a report from australia
its interesting to compare the tone of the papers ..quite a few were sympathetic to the couple and they were treated " leniently " because they had helped other young ladies in an indelicate situation and prevented one from throwing herself in the Mersey .
My grandmother was not one of the babies in the court case ..her mother Lottie Roberts had left her with a friend ..from her dressmakers work or her lovers fathers drapers business
the friend was a 30 year old single shirtmaker living with her 60 year old parents who took over Maisies care in 1906 when their daughter died . we believe the father paid the maintenance that he was ordered at least for the first few years and may well have paid the family directly
Maisie had a good live and her foster father had been a workhouse child himself so saved her from that fate .
the baby who was brought to court and proven to be Charlotte ROBERTS /BOURNE own child was Jessie SMITH born Swansea 1906 Herbert SMITH aka Leo Selwyn was registered as father but in court repeatedly denied it .
i think he was reputed father of one of the other babies .need to reread ALL the articles .
Jessie was brought in by the adoptive mother and was a testement to how well cared for she was and that good homes had been chosen for the children .
even one birth father testified in the couples favour .
Mrs Francis KITCHEN may have been witness for prosecution initially it looks as if she was angry about the amount of money the couple wanted .
The KITCHINGS had paid £11 to cover baby Harry's care but the couple later requested travel expenses .
the formidable grandma may have raised Harry as her daughter married in 1909 and had a legitimate daughter . harry was with grandparents in 1911 .
trees on Ancestry dont know who his fater is ..one has the brother
on his marriage certificate he gave fathers name as harry KITCHING ..I wonder if there is a Harry LEIGHTON in the vicinity
Jessies story is similar to my grandmothers
probably 2 different Lottie ROBERTS but although we do now know what became of OUR Lottie the years between 1900 - 1907 are a mystery
+ there doesnt seem to be a suitable candidate for a shropshire born waitress turned assisistant to an escapologist before or after these years .
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ive changed tree name on ancestry to
"adopted " babies : including Jessie SMITH/BALL, KITCHING + Unknown
do add a comment to the tree if you think your ancestor coule be one of the adoptees im building it up as much as possible
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Breaking news
Turi KING my DNA. Hero
Will be on BBC radio london at 6.40am British time
They are doing a program asking oublic who is their national treasure.
I phoned in with her name and radioperson was excited to tell me shes this morning guest and asked if they can call me back in next half hour .so im hanging by ohone
Hope to get someone to record it .🧐🐝
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d guest
Just to let you know I did follow up the hirschmann connection but it wasn't correct because his wife had first name of Lillian .
I can add other floating branches to this tree if anyone has unexplainable DNA matches and suspects a switch/ glitch in their line