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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: BassinghamTerrier on Tuesday 25 October 16 10:10 BST (UK)
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OK, following on from my thread about 293 Canongate, I'd like to know how to proceed with the military history of Alexander Ross who was married at that address in 1812.
I have no idea where to look or, indeed, what to look for.
Here's what I know about him:
- Birth: ca 1782, Buckie, Banff, Scotland (based on 1841 census)
- Marriage: to JANE SWANSON, 5 Jun 1812 (circa age 30), 293 Canongate, Edinburgh, Scotland
- Occupation (from 1812 to 1857): In the 1841 census Alexander was an agricultural labourer, but by 1851 he was a Chelsea Pensioner (having previously been a soldier in 1812) and by 1857 he was recorded as a dyer on son William's marriage to Rachel Stanfield.
- Military: 1812 (circa age 30) a gunner in the 2nd Battalion Royal Artillery; Leith Fort, Edinburgh, Scotland
- Residence (fam): 6 Jun 1841 (circa age 59), Old Machar, Aberdeen, Scotland (1841 Scottish census)
- Residence (fam): 30 Mar 1851 (aged 67 on this document), Gordon Mills, Old Machar, Aberdeen, Scotland (1851 Scottish census)
- Children: Isabel ROSS (1814-), Walter ROSS (1824-), George ROSS (1826-), John ROSS (1828-), William Swanson ROSS (1830-1880)*, Daniel ROSS (1832-)
*My G-G-Grandfather; I know all that I need to know about him.
And that's all that I know.
I would like to find out a little more about his military career; after all, his marriage in 1812 is right in the middle of the Napoleonic Wars - did he serve abroad? Will there be documents which list him serving? Discharge papers? I would guess that this will all be difficult to pin down as Alexander Ross is a bit like John Smith in English terms, but perhaps there are military experts here who could let me know about his Battalion's record of action.
I also have no idea when or where he might have died.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions that might be forthcoming.
MT ;)
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It's always a good idea to include a link to any previous threads so that people can easily refer back to what has been found before.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=757965.0
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Of course; my apologies.
In which case I should also link the following threads ...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=742804.msg5895087#msg5895087
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=715349.msg5589600#msg5589600
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=693501.msg5372769#msg5372769
MT ;)
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Updating my own thread here!
I've found out a little about Ross's battalion, the 2nd Royal Artillery, which can be found here -> http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/Britain/Artillery/c_2ndArtyBn.html
He must have been in the 1st Company which was stationed at Leith in 1812. It seems that they had moved there from Chatham sometime in 1810 (although I don't know when Ross signed up), moving on to Haddington in June 1812, presumably very soon after Ross married on the 5th! Here they remained until moving to Ireland in early 1814.
Not bad for starters! :)
MT ;)
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Right. I think I've now got this chap nailed.
I'll post this for posterity, just so that anyone else who may come along might find it useful.
Also, there may be others who can fill any small gaps ... ;)
Baptism: 26 August 1785: Scotlands People index has only one baptism in Banff 1780-1790 for an Alexander Ross- 26/08/1785 to William Ross & Isabel Garden; as he names his first daughter Isabel and a later son William I think it safe to say that this is our boy.
Military: (from circa 13 Feb 1804 to 1 July 1819): From Alexander Ross's entry in the Register of Ordnance Pensioners in 1819 it is possible to piece together his military career. By that time he had served for a total of 15 years 137 days, which suggests that he signed up around 13th February 1804, but I can't establish where.
By June 1812 Ross was serving as a gunner in - I believe - the 6th Company 2nd Battalion Royal Artillery under the command of Thomas Paterson; I am connecting him with the 6th Company as that is one of only two Battalions to be based in Leith in 1812 (the other being the 1st Company) but from November 1806 through until August 1811 the 6th spent a great deal of time in Ipswich, Suffolk, where Ross's son William Swanson Ross, was later to live. Of course, I could be wrong ... He was definitely stationed in Leith Fort, Edinburgh as indicated by his marriage to Jane Swanson in the July of 1812 and here the 6th Company remained until being disbanded in Dublin, Ireland on 31st January 1819, although Ross had moved on before this.
Using the Pensions Register again, it would seem that, having served for 11 years and 46 days in the 2nd Battalion, he was transferred to the 9th Battalion Royal Artillery on or about 1st April 1815 and here he remained until his entry in the Register of Ordnance Pensioners (where there is a reference to his previous service with Artillery, which must be the 2nd Battn.). He was discharged on 1st July 1819, aged 34 and suffering with a pectoral complaint, which seems to have been quite a common ailment amongst the soldiers. He had served for 4 years and 91 days in the 9th and still never risen above the rank of Private.
(More details as to where and when the 2nd Battalion RA went can be found here -> http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/Britain/Artillery/c_2ndArtyBn.html)
Occupation: (from circa 1804 to 1863): By the time of his registration as an Ordnance Pensioner in 1819, Alexander Ross was a labourer; in the 1841 census he was an agricultural labourer, but by 1851 he was a Chelsea Pensioner and by 1857 he was recorded as a dyer on son William's marriage to Rachel Stanfield.
General: In his registration as an Ordnance Pensioner in 1819, Alexander Ross was described as being 5' 7" tall, with light hair, grey eyes and being of fair complexion. He was also aged 34, giving him a birthdate of c1785 in Raffen (Rathven), Buckie, Banff.
Marriage 5 June 1812: It is highly probable that the marriage ceremony took place at 293 Canongate rather than at the Canongate Kirk. Apparently, until the late 19th century, it was the norm for a wedding to be held in the bride's home and weddings in the church itself were very unusual indeed. Certified (witnessed?) by John Lindsay, Gunner in said Batn. and William Buchanan, Private in the Renfrew Militia.
Death: 26th May 1863: Bogshalloch, Rathven, Banff, Scotland. From the Banffshire Journal and General Advertiser of that date: "SUDDEN DEATH. - An aged man, named Alexander Ross, residing at Bogshalloch, Enzie, had (says a correspondent) gone an errand to a neighbour, and immediately after his return dropped down and expired. He had walked about a mile and a half."
MT ;)
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Death: 26th May 1863: Bogshalloch, Rathven, Banff, Scotland. From the Banffshire Journal and General Advertiser of that date: "SUDDEN DEATH. - An aged man, named Alexander Ross, residing at Bogshalloch, Enzie, had (says a correspondent) gone an errand to a neighbour, and immediately after his return dropped down and expired. He had walked about a mile and a half."
Take a look at his death certificate. It should name his parents and his wife, so if it does and they match, it would definitely nail him.
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Death: 26th May 1863: Bogshalloch, Rathven, Banff, Scotland. From the Banffshire Journal and General Advertiser of that date: "SUDDEN DEATH. - An aged man, named Alexander Ross, residing at Bogshalloch, Enzie, had (says a correspondent) gone an errand to a neighbour, and immediately after his return dropped down and expired. He had walked about a mile and a half."
Take a look at his death certificate. It should name his parents and his wife, so if it does and they match, it would definitely nail him.
Wrong death. :(
The chap who died in Bogshalloch is 97 which is way off the mark.
Still looking ...
MT ;)
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Hi MT,
Did you see the cert?
Who registered the death?
Sometimes people were not sure of ages i.e. guess & people can look a lot older than their years to others.
Also, if it was the index only, it may be an error?
Annie
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Hi MT
Have you looked at the OPR for the birth of Alexander that you have located? There is a transcript of it on Freereg and it certainly makes interesting reading
Birth date 21 Aug 1785
Baptism 26 or 28 Aug 1785
Father William Ross servant to Mr Urquhart of Craigston
Mother Isabel Garden
Illegitimate son. Named after Alexr Garden the child's grandfather.Wit: said Alexr Garden and James Legat Bap Mr Skene Minister of Banff.
I would suggest that it might be worth digging around further with these names before assuming that this is definitely your man. (A birthplace of Buckie suggests Rathven parish to me not Banff). Wills index might be worth a look and if you have not already looked at it libindx is very good. Rathven parish is covered in the book The People and The Lands which you can browse on FindMyPast.
William
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WOW!
Lots of details that I didn't know there, Millmoor.
I'm still poking around with this chap, but we're filling gaps as we go along.
Cheers!
MT ;)
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Illegitimate son. Named after Alexr Garden the child's grandfather.Wit: said Alexr Garden and James Legat Bap Mr Skene Minister of Banff.
I'm confused now, William ...
William Ross and Isobel Garden were married 2nd Jan 1785 which was well before Alexander's birth in August 1785; how could the birth be illegitimate?
Unless they are calling the CONCEPTION illegitimate.
MT ;)
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Slightly confused by dates now as there is this marriage in Banff (unless they were working to old calendar).
2 Jan 1785 William Ross Banff Serving man to Isabel Garden of Blareshinnach. Bride's father Alexander Garden, Farmer.
Further detail on second transcription has groom abode as Mucky Reatie Boyndie and serv to William Longmure. Father Alexr Ross.Isobel Gairden. Abode Blearshinnoch. Father Alex'r Ross farmer Blearshinnoch. Bride/s mother Anne Lovie.
This is as transcribed. I really think you would to look at the original to see if they did actually marry. Was it just a proclamation?
Baptism for Isabel Gairdn has also been transcribed on Freereg Baptism 3 Sep 1763 Abode Calbuchly Father Alexr Gairdn Mother Anne Lovie Named after Isabel Stuart in Tipperty and Isabel Davi*** in Banff Wit James Allen and William Lumisden.
William
Added See you have found "marriage" but note points above.
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Interesting that with the baptisms of Alexander, there are two - the second one for 28th Aug 1785 has notes as follows ...
"Natural son named after maternal gr'father. Wit: Alexander Smout Jun'r & sen'r both in Blearshinouch. Paternal gr'parents Alexander Ross labourer Lunkerty King Edward & Elizabeth Gairn. Maternal: Alexander Gairn farmer Blearshinouch & Anne Lovie"
It makes no mention of being illegitimate!
MT ;)
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Natural son means illegitimate!
William
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For reference & to avoid duplication:
1871 - Blairshinoch, Banff, Banffshire:
Alexr Ross Head Married 87 (1784) Railway Gate Keeper born Rathven, Banffshire
Jane Ross Wife Married 50 born Fordyce, Banffshire, Scotland
Ann Davidson Step Daughter Unmarried 19 born Fordyce, Banffshire, Scotland
http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/banffshire-os-name-books-1867-1869/banffshire-volume-03/62#zoom=2&lat=623&lon=1515&layers=B
Death of Alexander Ross aged 90, registered in Banff in 1873
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Natural son means illegitimate!
William
Well, you live and learn!
I never realised that.
Every day's a learning day ...
MT ;)
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For reference & to avoid duplication:
1871 - Blairshinoch, Banff, Banffshire:
Alexr Ross Head Married 87 (1784) Railway Gate Keeper born Rathven, Banffshire
Jane Ross Wife Married 50 born Fordyce, Banffshire, Scotland
Ann Davidson Step Daughter Unmarried 19 born Fordyce, Banffshire, Scotland
http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/banffshire-os-name-books-1867-1869/banffshire-volume-03/62#zoom=2&lat=623&lon=1515&layers=B
Death of Alexander Ross aged 90, registered in Banff in 1873
Yep.
Already been pointed in this direction.
The death was new though.
MT ;)
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Death of Alexander Ross aged 90, registered in Banff in 1873
Yep.
Already been pointed in this direction.
The death was new though.
[/quote]
I know - it was me that pointed you there, and I'd already mentioned the death too :-X
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D'oh!
Sorry, Julie - had forgotten that was you.
Must have missed the death in your message too.
Like I said, not having a good day - too many irons in millions of fires just now! :o
MT ;)
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Given the information provided by Jomot regarding the 1871 census and the death in 1873 you might find it useful, having obtained the death cert from SP, to have a look at a public tree on Ancestry which has a lot of info on it and "compare notes". It suggests completely different parents!
William
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Oh, yes, I've seen lots of trees on Ancestry where the parentage of this family is all over the place.
That's why I came to consult the experts! :)
Thanks to Jomot, I've also managed to pin down ACCURATE dates for the birth of the children - and also found a missing one! - which many of those family trees don't have, viz ...
- Isabel Ross born 18 Nov 1814
- Alexander Ross born 2 Dec 1819, Reay, Caithness
- Walter Steel Ross (twin) born 23 April 1822, Reay, Caithness
- George Ross (twin) born 23 April 1822, Reay, Caithness
- John Ross born 5 April 1828, Portsoy, Banff
- William Swanson Ross born July 1830, Old Machar, Aberdeen
- Daniel Ross born 21 Dec 1832, Old Machar, Aberdeen
I've yet to work out the 'Steel' middle name of Walter Ross; no doubt that filters even further back into the family tree!
MT ;)
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The main point of my previous post was that the 1873 death cert.would be my next port of call - this will hopefully give parents' names.
William
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Yes, William, I did realise that. :)
MT ;)
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The main point of my previous post was that the 1873 death cert.would be my next port of call - this will hopefully give parents' names.
William
OK, the bad news is that the 1873 death is NOT my Alexander Ross. :(
The one named on the register here is the son of Daniel Ross, shoemaker, and Isabella Ross (maiden name Ragg). He died at the Mill of Blairshinnoch, 22nd October 1873, where he was married to Jane McLeod, all of which goes to show that the 1871 census and railway gate-keeper theory are wrong.
The one similarity is that he was a Chelsea Pensioner, the same as my Alexander.
MT ;)
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Hi MT
Have you factored in to your deliberations that Jane McLeod was his second wife?
William
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Hi MT
Have you factored in to your deliberations that Jane McLeod was his second wife?
William
Yes, thought about that, William, as that would make the death certificate - and all the 1871 stuff - correct.
But that would make the baptism wrong and as yet, I can't find another baptism to fit the 1784-1785 birth.
Another point that might just swing it towards this marriage is that he had children Isabel (mother could be Isabella) and Daniel (possible father), born to his first wife Jane Swanson.
It's the alternative birth/baptism that is going to be key, I think.
MT ;)
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Given the information provided by Jomot regarding the 1871 census and the death in 1873 you might find it useful, having obtained the death cert from SP, to have a look at a public tree on Ancestry which has a lot of info on it and "compare notes". It suggests completely different parents!
William
I've just hunted this down, William, and I presume that you are referring to the Daniel Ross and Isabel Ragg tree on Ancestry, yes?
The interesting thing there is that they have MY Alexander down as a second son, but they have no confirmation via baptism. This tree has two possible births/baptisms which are both for 11th July 1785, but in different places and I can't find either on FreeReg or SP.
Mind you, I am still learning how to find my way around the latter!
MT ;)
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Given that the family were at Hayston, Old Machar in 1841 and Gordon Mills, Old Machar in 1851 (according to FreeCEN), maybe you need to look in Aberdeen for their deaths?
Never believe anything you find online, and especially on Ancestry, unless it's an original certificate!
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A little more on the Daniel (Donald) Ross & Isabella Ragg family ...
http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/67973568/person/46255464778/facts
The 11 July 1785 Boyndie birth of Alexander - which is cited as a possibility - is an Alexander born to John Ross and Ann Dean, so I think we can count that out! (http://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/551060f8e93790f8ad16b05f?search_id=581b36c233045bbc2e86d95c)
I can find no trace of the Buckie/Rathven birth, also of 11 July 1875, but I can only presume that they have taken THAT date and applied it to the baptism of August 1785 that I was working on (Alexander Ross and Isabel Gairdn/Garden).
Will look for some Aberdeen deaths later, Forfarian - thanks.
MT ;)
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Do you have a copy of his marriage to Jane Swanson? Its possible there may be some information on there.
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Sorry, but this is all I've got.
(http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=715349.0;attach=417277;image)
Not a lot to go on, is it!
MT ;)
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I think that if he consistently says he was born in Buckie, you can discount any baptism in Boyndie. It's not a vast distance from Buckie to Boyndie - you could easily walk it in a day - but they are two quite different places.
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Baptism: 26 August 1785: Scotlands People index has only one baptism in Banff 1780-1790 for an Alexander Ross- 26/08/1785 to William Ross & Isabel Garden; as he names his first daughter Isabel and a later son William I think it safe to say that this is our boy.
But it was more common to name the first daughter after her mother's mother, and the first son after his father's father.
Alexander, James, John and William are all so common that they are less useful as pointers to grandparents' names than more unusual names.
I don't rule out the possibility that the son of William Ross and Isabel Garden is your man, but it is certainly not 'safe to say' that he is.
The main reason to think that he is not your man is that Banff is not Buckie - in fact it is further from Buckie to Banff than it if from Buckie to Boyndie (though you could still walk it in a day).
The 1851 census gives his age as 67. If this is accurate, it means that he was born between 31 March 1783 and 30 March 1784.
The overwhelming probability is that he is one of the many people whose baptisms were not recorded, or, if they were, have not survived.
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Thanks for that, Forfarian - it certainly makes a lot of sense.
Can anyone tell me if a marriage image on Scotland's People will indicate if one or either was widowed? I'm going to check out the Ross/McLeod marriage (if I can find it!)
Also, I am trying to track down the death of Jane Ross (nee Swanson); a while ago I was given a possible death of 24 March 1854 in Old Machar, Aberdeenshire. I have the credits and would like to see if she is the wife of my Alexander but I can't for the life of me find a link to get me to her. I've searched and searched as best as I can on SP but keep getting zero results for her death.
What am I doing wrong?
MT ;)
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Can anyone tell me if a marriage image on Scotland's People will indicate if one or either was widowed? I'm going to check out the Ross/McLeod marriage (if I can find it!)
I don't think you need to get the certificate. First, the 1861 census shows Alexander Ross, 77, as a widower at Broomstrath, Banff. Second, Alexander Ross and Jean McLeod were married on 26 December 1861 in Banff. Odd, then, that the death certificate doesn't name the first wife - or does it? It certainly ought to.
Also, I am trying to track down the death of Jane Ross (nee Swanson); a while ago I was given a possible death of 24 March 1854 in Old Machar, Aberdeenshire. I have the credits and would like to see if she is the wife of my Alexander but I can't for the life of me find a link to get me to her. I've searched and searched as best as I can on SP but keep getting zero results for her death.
What am I doing wrong?
Searching using both surnames? I found it using only Ross. It's in Old Machar.
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Re Jane Ross death in Old Machar 24 March 1854 suggest you search for Ross in Aberdeen City in 1854. There are actually two results of interest for that date. One has a parent named as Jane Ross and the other,unfortunately, has no age in the index. The two may be connected and so it is impossible to tell from the index whether it is your Jane.
William
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Re Jane Ross death in Old Machar 24 March 1854 suggest you search for Ross in Aberdeen City in 1854. There are actually two results of interest for that date. One has a parent named as Jane Ross and the other,unfortunately, has no age in the index. The two may be connected and so it is impossible to tell from the index whether it is your Jane.
William
I've now seen the one with no age; unfortunately it just says "24 March Jane Ross Daughter, from poorhouse" so looks unlikely to be my girl.
MT ;)
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... the 1861 census shows Alexander Ross, 77, as a widower at Broomstrath, Banff.
I am using Ancestry and I have only a textual transcript, but it doesn't mention anywhere that he is a widower.
I presume that you have access to the full image in SP?
MT ;)
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The 1861 census for Banffshire has been transcribed on freecen. He is showing as a widower but, highlighting an issue with transcriptions, they have transcribed his occupation as distilleryman pensioner.The only other person in the household is Margaret Skinner - it is possible she is his daughter in law but notes suggest this may have been crossed out. The only way to be sure of what it says is from the original.
William
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... the 1861 census shows Alexander Ross, 77, as a widower at Broomstrath, Banff.
I am using Ancestry and I have only a textual transcript, but it doesn't mention anywhere that he is a widower.
I presume that you have access to the full image in SP?
I have the same access as you to the image at SP. I am looking at the transcription at http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl which is infinitely superior to the one on Ancestry, because it includes everything that is in the original (such as marital status) and it does not invent information that is not in the original (such as the supposed year of birth). It also eschews the notoriously creative spellings dreamed up by Ancestry (my favourite being 'Lazzoryve' for 'Ballantyne').
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Thinking back to Alexander's marriage to Jane Swanson at 293 Canongate, Edinburgh in 1812, will there be any documentation other than the brief entry in what looks like the register?
The obvious disappointing feature of this is that Jane's father is named, but none of Alexander's is.
If there were to be more fulsome documents to be had, they would be key.
MT ;)
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Thinking back to Alexander's marriage to Jane Swanson at 293 Canongate, Edinburgh in 1812, will there be any documentation other than the brief entry in what looks like the register?
No, unfortunately, that's it. It's very unusual to get the name of the groom's father before 1855 - usually only if he was a man of some prominence. Not for an ordinary soldier, I'm afraid.
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Well, I think that I'm stuffed then; I really don't know which way to turn now.
- I can't find a death for a Jane/Jean Ross 1851-1861 to confirm that the Artilleryman Pensioner in 1861 is my Alexander Ross
- I can't find a baptism for an Alexander Ross born to Daniel/Donald Ross and Isabella Ragg 1782-1785
- I can't find a death for an Alexander Ross of parents William Ross and Isabel Garden/Gairdn/Gardener
Looks like the end of the line.
MT ;)
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Yes, it does a bit.
I think I have already said that you can almost certainly discount the one born in Banff, so you are left with a rather defective record. I think it's a better than even chance that he is the Daniel/Donald Ross and Isabella Ragg one, but I cannot think of any other way to try to prove it.
Very frustrating, isn't it?
If it is the same man, I wonder when exactly he moved from Old Machar to Banff? And why? Did one of his children live in Banff? Could Jane Swanson have died in Banff? You did check for a burial under her own surname, Swanson, didn't you? Did you get anywhere with Margaret Skinner?
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Not checked for a burial under Jane/Jean Swanson; didn't see a reason why simply because she was a Ross - but I will.
Discounted Margaret Skinner because I really don't think she is related.
MT ;)
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Not checked for a burial under Jane/Jean Swanson; didn't see a reason why simply because she was a Ross - but I will.
Married women don't lose their maiden surnames in Scotland. That's why the baptism records generally include the mother's maiden surname, and also why deaths of married women are indexed under both surname in the Scottish indexes. It's also quite common for a wife to be in the census by her maiden name, in a household where everyone else has her husband's surname - this doesn't imply that they weren't married. It's also common for both surnames to be listed in a burial register., and not unheard of for her to be listed only under her own surname.
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Hi MT,
Perhaps I missed it but have you made any connection to William's brother Walter's middle name?
Jen
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No, you haven't missed anything, Jen.
I might eventually get around to hunting that down but at the moment it's not high on my agenda.
It may well be that, once we can ascertain Alexander's parentage, the Steel reference might just fall into place.
MT ;)
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Just been re-reading the whole thread and noticed that the Alexander Ross in the 1871 census was living at the place where the son of William Ross and Isabel Garden was born, Blairshinnoch (with spelling variants).
Yet you have his death and it says he was the son of Daniel Ross and Isabella Ragg. ???
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unless they were working to old calendar
Unlikely. Scotland adopted the new calendar in 1600-ish, but England didn't adopt it until 1752. Either way, it's well before 1785.
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Just been re-reading the whole thread and noticed that the Alexander Ross in the 1871 census was living at the place where the son of William Ross and Isabel Garden was born, Blairshinnoch (with spelling variants).
Yet you have his death and it says he was the son of Daniel Ross and Isabella Ragg. ???
Yup.
Annoying isn't it? :D
MT ;)
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Curiosity got the better of me; I looked at the original of that 1861 census. It definitely says Margaret Skinner is the daughter-in-law of Alexander Ross, and that she is unmarried.
Now, the term daughter-in-law can also mean stepdaughter in Scotland.
She died at Blairshinnoch on 19 June 1861, aged 52 (3 years younger than she was six weeks before!), parents Alexander Skinner and Helen Copland. The informant was Alexr Ross, relative.
So she was definitely related .... so if we can work back until we find a familiar name in her tree, that should help.
Alexander Skinner and Helen Copland had
Elspet, baptised 25 September 1797 in Rathven
John, baptised 15 April 1802 in Rathven
However they omitted to get married until 27 July 1799 in Rathven.
According to the 1861 census and her death certificate Margaret would have been born between 1805 and 1809.
In 1841 they were in New Buckie
Alexander Skinner, 65, grocer
Helen Coupland, 65
Isabella Thomson, 50
Margt Skinner, 25
Helen Davidson, 12
Mary Grive, 3
That puts Margaret’s birth back to between 1811 and 1816.
There’s a grave in Rathven Old Cemetery of Alexander Skinner, died 22 December 1844 aged 74, and Helen Skinner, died 22 December 1848 aged 82. Alexander’s listing in LIBINDX says he was the father of Helen and Margaret Skinner.
I’m not getting anywhere further back than that, however.
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Hmmmmm ...
Interesting, Forfarian.
I notice that there is a Davidson there in 1841 ...
1871 - Blairshinoch, Banff, Banffshire:
Alexr Ross Head Married 87 (1784) Railway Gate Keeper born Rathven, Banffshire
Jane Ross Wife Married 50 born Fordyce, Banffshire, Scotland
Ann Davidson Step Daughter Unmarried 19 born Fordyce, Banffshire, Scotland.
Coincidence?
Birth/Baptism: 23/07/1851 – Mary Ann Davidson d/o Jane Davidson, Cullen (Banff)
Marriage: 26 Dec 1861 - Alexander Ross & Jane McLeod, registered in Banff Landward
MT ;)
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Hmmmmm ...
Interesting, Forfarian.
I notice that there is a Davidson there in 1841 ...
1871 - Blairshinoch, Banff, Banffshire:
Alexr Ross Head Married 87 (1784) Railway Gate Keeper born Rathven, Banffshire
Jane Ross Wife Married 50 born Fordyce, Banffshire, Scotland
Ann Davidson Step Daughter Unmarried 19 born Fordyce, Banffshire, Scotland.
Coincidence?
Birth/Baptism: 23/07/1851 – Mary Ann Davidson d/o Jane Davidson, Cullen (Banff)
Marriage: 26 Dec 1861 - Alexander Ross & Jane McLeod, registered in Banff Landward
MT ;)
Probably. Cullen isn't in Fordyce, though it is next door, and we know that Alexanders' wife's maiden name was MacLeod. Davidson is a very common surname.
Unless Alexander Ross married Jane Davidson some time after 1851 and after the death of Jane Swanson, and then Jane Davidson died before 1861.
I can't find Jane/Jean Davidson or Jane/Jean M(a)cLeod or Ann Davidson or Ann M(a)cLeod in the 1851 census. Unless Ann Davidson is the 8-year-old lodger, born Forglen, lodging at Longleas, Banff. (Forglen - Fordyce - I suppose you could get that wrong).
In any case, if Ann Davidson is Alexander's stepdaughter, she isn't going to help to find his parentage.
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I've discovered the death of his wife, Jane (nee Swanson); it was there on ScotlandsPeople. What threw me was the age at death.
She died of protracted "heart disease" in Hayton, Old Machar, Aberdeen on 26th August 1856 aged 63 - so she wasn't born c1801 in Caithness; it looks like rather earlier c1793, which makes her marriage in 1812 much more respectable! :)
Apparently she is buried in Old Machar Churchyard - is it still there? - and her husband, Alexander Ross, was present at her death.
Small steps ...
With regard to her birth/baptism, I note that there is a tree on Ancestry which features the same Jane Swanson with parents George Swanson and Ann Miller (I believe that this should be Millen) which has a birth of 14th Feb 1856, Halkirk, Caithness, but I haven't been able to corroborate this anywhere. As usual, the tree on Ancestry doesn't have any sources either. :(
MT ;)
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Curiosity got the better of me; I looked at the original of that 1861 census. It definitely says Margaret Skinner is the daughter-in-law of Alexander Ross, and that she is unmarried.
Now, the term daughter-in-law can also mean stepdaughter in Scotland.
She died at Blairshinnoch on 19 June 1861, aged 52 (3 years younger than she was six weeks before!), parents Alexander Skinner and Helen Copland. The informant was Alexr Ross, relative.
So she was definitely related .... so if we can work back until we find a familiar name in her tree, that should help.
Alexander Skinner and Helen Copland had
Elspet, baptised 25 September 1797 in Rathven
John, baptised 15 April 1802 in Rathven
However they omitted to get married until 27 July 1799 in Rathven.
According to the 1861 census and her death certificate Margaret would have been born between 1805 and 1809.
In 1841 they were in New Buckie
Alexander Skinner, 65, grocer
Helen Coupland, 65
Isabella Thomson, 50
Margt Skinner, 25
Helen Davidson, 12
Mary Grive, 3
That puts Margaret’s birth back to between 1811 and 1816.
There’s a grave in Rathven Old Cemetery of Alexander Skinner, died 22 December 1844 aged 74, and Helen Skinner, died 22 December 1848 aged 82. Alexander’s listing in LIBINDX says he was the father of Helen and Margaret Skinner.
I’m not getting anywhere further back than that, however.
UPDATE
I think that I've cracked it; here she is!
"Statutory Marriage 168/02 0099 When and Where Married: 25 August 1856 at 58 Spital Old Aberdeen Name and Profession: John Ross (Bachelor) Corporal Royal Artillery Age: 29 Usual Residence: 58 Spital Old Aberdeen Name Surname and Profession of Father: Alexander Ross Labourer Name and Maiden Surname of Mother: Jane Ross M.S. Swanson Name and Profession: Mary Greive (Spinster) Domestic Servant Age: 19 Usual Residence: 33 School Lane Woodside Aberdeen Name Surname and Profession of Father: Alexander Greive Greive at Cullen House Name and Maiden Surname of Mother: Margaret Greive M.S. Skinner"
So she's no relative at all really, other than being the mother of the girl married by Alexander's son; and she's hardly unmarried either, unless she's a widow?
She's also registered using her maiden name of SKINNER rather than her married surname of GREIVE.
In addition, the detail about where they were married is a good example of what you said earlier - they seem to have been wed at John's home. :)
MT ;)
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I think that I've cracked it; here she is!
"Statutory Marriage 168/02 0099 When and Where Married: 25 August 1856 at 58 Spital Old Aberdeen Name and Profession: John Ross (Bachelor) Corporal Royal Artillery Age: 29 Usual Residence: 58 Spital Old Aberdeen Name Surname and Profession of Father: Alexander Ross Labourer Name and Maiden Surname of Mother: Jane Ross M.S. Swanson Name and Profession: Mary Greive (Spinster) Domestic Servant Age: 19 Usual Residence: 33 School Lane Woodside Aberdeen Name Surname and Profession of Father: Alexander Greive Greive at Cullen House Name and Maiden Surname of Mother: Margaret Greive M.S. Skinner"
More like sister-in-law and hardly unmarried - unless she's a widow?
She's also registered using her maiden name of SKINNER rather than her married surname of GREIVE.
Unless Mary was illegitimate, and wasn't quite truthful about her parents' marital status. This would tie in with the 1841 census, where Mary Grive, aged 3, and Margaret Skinner were in the household of Alexander Skinner in New Buckie.
There's a bit of a shortage of Alexander Grieves, however. The only one in Banffshire in 1851 is a widower, aged 31, farm labourer at Brountoun in the parish of Rathven. He is probably the one recorded aged 24 in the 1841 census, a farm servant in Buckie.
Interestingly, the one in 1841 is in the household of James Kessack, and there is a marriage of an Alexander Grieve to Isabell Kissach in Rathven in 1839. LIBINDX http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/people/mainfilter.asp has a reference to this marriage from the Roman Catholic register, which says that Alexander's parents were James Grieve and Helen Murdoch, and that Isabel's were James Kessoch and Helen Murdoch. (Yes, both mothers named as Helen Murdoch.)
They had three children: James 1840; Isabella 1841; Alexander 1843. I have failed to find any of the three children in the 1851 census so far.
In 1853 one Alexander Grieve married Helen Geddes in Enzie, and this couple are in Enzie, he described as a salmon fisher, aged 47 in 1861 and in Rathven aged 70 in 1881. So again curiosity got the better of me.
Alexander Grieve, general labourer, aged 75, married first to Margaret [sic] Kessack and second to Helen Geddes, died in Buckie on 25 March 1888. His parents were James Grieve and Helen Murdoch.
So this is what I think the story is.
Alexander Grieve is born in 1811 to James Grieve and Helen Murdoch.
In 1837/8 he fathers an illegitimate daughter, Mary, by Margaret Skinner
In 1839 he marries Isabella Kissack (many spelling variations possible)
In 1840 their son James in born
In 1841 Alexander is recorded in the household of his parents-in-law, described as a farm servant, aged 24
In 1841 their daughter Isabella is born
In 1843 their son Alexander is born
Between 1843 and 1851 Isabella Kissack of Grieve dies
In 1851 Alexander is recorded, a widower aged 31, farm labourer, in Brountoun
In 1853 Alexander marries Helen Geddes
In 1856 Mary marries, and describes her father as a farm grieve at Cullen House
In 1861 Alexander is described as a salmon fisher and living in Enzie, aged 47
In 1881 he is also described as a salmon fisher and living in Enzie, aged 70
In 1888 Alexander dies aged 75, described as a general labourer
You can, and you should, verify all of this by looking up the original documents on SP.
None of which gets anyone any further with the parentage of Alexander Ross :(
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I've discovered the death of his wife, Jane (nee Swanson) ....
She died .... in Hayton, Old Machar, Aberdeen on 26th August 1856 ....
With regard to her birth/baptism, I note that there is a tree on Ancestry which features the same Jane Swanson with parents George Swanson and Ann Miller (I believe that this should be Millen) which has a birth of 14th Feb 1856, Halkirk, Caithness, but I haven't been able to corroborate this anywhere.
Does A******y really suggest that someone born on 14 February 1856 could have grown up, married, had a family and then died at the ripe old age of six months and twelve days?
Who does the death certificate say that her parents were?
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I've discovered the death of his wife, Jane (nee Swanson) ....
She died .... in Hayton, Old Machar, Aberdeen on 26th August 1856 ....
With regard to her birth/baptism, I note that there is a tree on Ancestry which features the same Jane Swanson with parents George Swanson and Ann Miller (I believe that this should be Millen) which has a birth of 14th Feb 1856, Halkirk, Caithness, but I haven't been able to corroborate this anywhere.
Does A******y really suggest that someone born on 14 February 1856 could have grown up, married, had a family and then died at the ripe old age of six months and twelve days?
Who does ther death certificate say that her parents were?
Oops! My mistake. Well spotted, Forfarian.
14th February 1793, Halkirk, Caithness.
I mixed up the birth year with that of her death. Sorry.
Parents as per suggested - George Swanson and Ann Miller.
MT ;)
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None of which gets anyone any further with the parentage of Alexander Ross :(
Now then, I have finally found the evidence for the December 1861 marriage between Alexander Ross and Jane McLeod. I was hoping that unlike the 1812 marriage to his first wife Jane Swanson this one might reveal his parents - and it does! Unfortunately, it simply muddies the waters a little further ...
On this marriage record his parents are listed as DONALD Ross (Shoemaker - deceased) and Isabell Ragg (deceased).
So, this leads me to think that these are the CORRECT names for his parents as Alexander himself would have informed the Registrar. Agreed? When Alexander dies in 1873, his death is reported/informed by an illegible name - Mr Allan something? (see attachment) - but it's clearly NOT his wife or offspring as far as I can see, so that person probably did not know for sure who his parents were, hence the error in naming the father as DANIEL.
As for the other Greive and Skinner family line I am not going to pursue that as it goes off at too much of a tangent from my direct line. Thanks for doing some digging though - much appreciated! :)
MT ;)
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No, no, don't worry about that. Even though they are of totally different origins, the names Donald and Daniel are used interchangeably in parts of Scotland. So when you mislay a Daniel, look for him as Donald, and vice versa.
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No, no, don't worry about that. Even though they are of totally different origins, the names Donald and Daniel are used interchangeably in parts of Scotland. So when you mislay a Daniel, look for him as Donald, and vice versa.
Ahhh ... that's most interesting! Thank you for that.
Now to find a baptism for an Alexander Ross to Daniel/Donald Ross and Isabell(a) Ragg c1782 ...
I'm told that there is one 18th Oct 1872 in Rathven, Banff, but this is only a POSSIBILITY; there are no parents named on this birth or perhaps they are illegible.
MT ;)
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I see there's a baptism of James Ross, parents Donald Ross and Isobel Rag, in the parish of Duffus, county of Moray, on 17 December 1775.
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Yes, already had that one on my lists, but can't find a marriage for Donald/Daniel and Isabell(a) as yet.
MT ;)
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I'm still rattling away on this one and have made many small holes in the various walls.
Can anyone please help me find GEORGE ROSS in the 1871 census? I suspect that he might be in Glasgow ...
- 23 Apr 1822: born Reay, Caithness, Scotland, twin brother of Walter Ross, son of Alexander and Jane (nee Swanson) Ross
- 6 Jun 1841: living with parents and siblings at Old Machar, Aberdeen, Scotland; occ = labourer
- 5 Sep 1845: married MARY SIMPSON at Old Machar, Aberdeen, Scotland; living at College Street, Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire, Scotland; occ = woollen mill labourer at Gordon's Mills
- c1846: birth of Son Alexander ROSS (Thurso, 1846–)
- c1851: birth of Son George ROSS (New Machar, 1851–)
- c1855: birth of Daughter Elisabeth ROSS (New Machar, 1855–)
- c1858: birth of Daughter Isabella ROSS (New Machar, 1858–)
- 7 Apr 1861: living at 31 School Road, Old Machar, Aberdeenshire, Scotland; occ = wool spinner
- 8 Aug 1861: death of wife, MARY ROSS (nee Simpson), 24 Don Street, Woodside, Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire
- 1870: living at 85 John Street, Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland?*; occ = spinner
- 1874: living at 28 Scott Street, Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland?*; occ = spinner
- 3 Apr 1881: living at Bogie Rd, Bogie Side, Rhynie, Aberdeenshire, Scotland; occ = wool spinner
- 6 Jun 1883: Paternity suit successfully filed against him by ELSPET BEATTIE REID; address is Stephens Works, Huntly, Aberdeen, Scotland
- 20 Oct 1885: married at St Margaret's Church, Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire, Scotland to ELSPET WATSON EDWARDS (nee CHRISTIE)
- 5 Apr 1891: living at Old Bridge of Don, Aberdeen Old Machar, Aberdeenshire, Scotland; wife is listed as "Eliza" but she's Elspet; occ = unemployed wool spinner - pauper.
- 6 Feb 1901: died at Old Bridge of Don, Old Aberdeen, Scotland; wrong age given - says "69" but he was 78; occ = wool spinner
I know that he also fathered ANOTHER illegitimate child - David Ross - by Elspet Beattie in 1864, and he also fathers four more children by his second wife, Elspet Christie, but these facts don't really have any bearing on this.
The asterisked/red facts (from the Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland, Electoral Registers, 1857-1962) are the ones that lead me to believe that he is in Glasgow for the 1871 census - but I cannot find him.
Can anyone please help out?
MT ;)
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Hi Bassingham Terrier, I am reaching out to you to determine if you ever made any headway with your Ross family investigations?
Daniel Ross (born 1832, son of Alexander Ross and Jane Swanson) is my great great grandfather. Therefore he is the younger brother of your great great grandfather, William Swanson Ross. So we are distantly related through Alexander Ross and Jane Swanson.
I have some of Daniel's military records from the 92nd Regiment of Foot (later name-changed to the Gordon Highlanders) 1850-1856 and the Royal Artillery 1856-1858. It seems that Daniel transferred from the 92nd to the Royal Artillery whilst in the Crimea. Perhaps he met his brother(s) there and decided the RA was a better option, or he decided to follow the family tradition started by Alexander of serving in the RA. Upon medical discharge from the RA in 1858, Daniel was a policeman in Yorkshire for a while, later becoming a salesman.
With regards to tangibles, I have a painted portrait of Daniel as an old man. I also have multiple photos of Daniel's son, George Walter Ross.
Do you have any family photos of William Swanson Ross and/or photos that might include any of the Ross brothers together, especially Daniel Ross?
I am planning to go to Kew next week (+/- 1 March 2023) to see if I can find any of Alexander's military records from the Royal Artillery (1804-1819). I'll keep you updated, if you don't already have the information.
My brother has done a lot of work on the family tree, including some work on the Ross-Swanson side, which he has traced back to our great great great great great grandparents (early 1700's). They are John Ross married to Margaret Steel and James Swanson married to Isobel Sinclair.
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Here is a portrait of Daniel Ross in old age. The portrait had been stored at my grandmother's house without a frame for some time and had incurred some damage as a result. Originally, it was mounted with a gold-coloured oval window mat.
Daniel was born in the parish of Old Machar in Aberdeen on 21 December 1832. He enlisted in the 92nd (Gordon Highlanders) Regiment of Foot on 25 January 1850 in Aberdeen at the age of 17. He saw overseas service in the Ionian Isles (Corfu), Gibraltar, and the Crimea. He achieved the rank of Sergeant within the regiment on 13 July 1854.
On 17 May 1856, he transferred from the 92nd (Gordon Highlanders) Regiment of Foot to the Royal Artillery 12th Battalion and served with this battalion until 16 March 1858, when his discharge was approved based on the opinion of the principle medical officer at Woolwich Barracks that Daniel was "unfit for service" and "permanently disqualified from military duty" due to "disease of the bones of the ear".
His army records describe his character and conduct as "very good".
After his discharge from the army, he signed on as a police officer with the West Riding Constabulary of Yorkshire in 1859.
He died in Lancashire in 1901.