RootsChat.Com
Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: kob3203 on Monday 31 October 16 07:40 GMT (UK)
-
I've just discovered that the microfilmed original Cahir RC parish records (Diocese of Waterford and Lismore, Co. Tipperary) are all online at the National Library of Ireland - http://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1097 (http://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1097)
Each microfilm has a note that states "This manuscript or any part thereof may not be reproduced without the permission of the National Library of Ireland", which means that I can't post images of the lines I'm trying to decipher.
Is there any way we can get blanket permission from the NLI to post individual lines on this handwriting deciphering forum, or do I need to seek individual permission?
In the meantime: luckily each individual page can be accessed via a unique URL. So here are the URLs for the five pages with the entries I'm interested in, plus a note of which line I'm trying to decipher on each page - They're all baptism records with parents Edmund Purtell and Johanna Sweeney of Market Street - hopefully that should be enough information for any masochist who wants to (a) go to the effort of finding the lines in question, and (b) attempt to decipher them. :)
1) The 2nd entry ('4' in the date column) on p135 (Sep 1864 to Nov 1864) http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632137#page/135/mode/1up (http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632137#page/135/mode/1up)
2) The 16th entry/4th entry for April ('10' in the date column), about halfway down p146 (Mar 1867 to May 1867) http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632137#page/146/mode/1up (http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632137#page/146/mode/1up)
3) The 18th (or so) entry ('5' or '6' in the date column), a couple of lines above the crossed out child name, about two thirds down p156 (Apr 1869 to Jul 1869) http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632137#page/156/mode/1up (http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632137#page/156/mode/1up)
4) The last entry on p170 (Apr 1872 to June 1872) http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632137#page/170/mode/1up (http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632137#page/170/mode/1up) (I needed to play with brightness and contrast on this one)
5) The 11th entry ('19' in the date column) about a third of the way down p181 (Jun 1874 - Sep 1874) here http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632137#page/181/mode/1up (http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632137#page/181/mode/1up)
My best decipherings to date are on another thread here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714653.msg6088276#msg6088276 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714653.msg6088276#msg6088276)
-
Could the first child be a girl? I see:
4
Edmundena? Purtel
Edmund et Joanne Sweeney
Market St
Michaele Grace et Ellena Jul??ens
M Maxey
Does this help at all?
-
The names are 'Latinised', and I think the first one might be Edmundum
Added - but I see you have already got this on your other thread :-\
Second entry on p135 (Sep 1864 to Nov 1864) http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632137#page/135/mode/1up (http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632137#page/135/mode/1up) appears to be the Edmund Purtell (31Aug 1864) from IFHS/LDS. Here's how I read that entry:
4 (Sep 1864), Edmundum Purtell, Edmund et Joanna Sweeny, Market St, Michael Glace et Ellen Sullivan,M Macey
-
Thanks Whipby - any reading with a fresh pair of eyes is helpful ! :)
The differences between your reading and mine are good for focusing my attention.
I know what I want/expect to see and that may subconciously affect my reading of the entry. Even with the sponsor/clergyman names.
JenB - I think I corrected my original readings at about the same time you posted ! :)
I wasn't initially aware of the Latin, as you can see from my original observation in the linked post that "...The date is 10th (not 7th) and the name is Mariam (not Mary)...".
An email from a fellow researcher prompted me to look at the entries again with an eye to possible Latinized names/suffixes, and I made some quick corrections (e.g. changing '+' to 'et', looking for '-um' suffixes, etc...)
Edited - just been sent this useful link on the use of Latin names in RC registers https://www.familytreeforum.com/content.php/370-latin-names (https://www.familytreeforum.com/content.php/370-latin-names) - the notes at the very end of the page are interesting
-
There are snippets of these microfilms posted constantly for deciphering, NLI don't have a problem with that see 'I want to publish an image from the site' on the help page, under Other Questions. http://registers.nli.ie/help
-
Hello,
I would say no 5 is
William with godparents James O'Loughlin and Ellen Dwyer.
-
Luckily they are late enough to cross-check with civil certs.
-
Sinann: thanks, that's great news :)
Heywood: thanks, that matches what I thought
dublin1850: we originally got the date of birth for each child from the IFHS/LDS records, which I think are the civil certificates you mention? Two of those gave mother's name as Judith, which made be suspicious that maybe it was a different couple (and one had a different, non Market St address). But the corresponding entries in the RC registers all seem to give the mother's name as Johanna and the address as Market St. So cross-checking seems to have removed the doubt.
-
Thanks to Sinann's advice here are reduced size (50%) and quality (75%) snippets of the 5 RC baptism records from the NLI scans. They're in the same order as listed in the first post, and the red arrow on the left marks the line I'm interested in (obviously!).
The second (too light) and fourth (too dark) snippets are the main uncertainties.
-
dublin1850: we originally got the date of birth for each child from the IFHS/LDS records, which I think are the civil certificates you mention? Two of those gave mother's name as Judith, which made be suspicious that maybe it was a different couple (and one had a different, non Market St address). But the corresponding entries in the RC registers all seem to give the mother's name as Johanna and the address as Market St. So cross-checking seems to have removed the doubt.
No, dublin 1850 means the images of the Civil Certs like this one
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1874/03134/2149243.pdf
Number 363
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/da4a464953025
-
Thanks again Sinann, so those are now free to view too - what wonderful news! :)
Cross-checking the relevant civil register images (all Clogheen district) with the RC register images for my five finds a few cases where the mother is given as Judith in one and Johanna in the other, or the father is given as Edmund in one and Edward in the other. I think that more-or-less confirms that all five children are siblings
(other than the parents' names mismatches noted above there is one mismatch between RC and civil - the child born in 1872. Civil records show John, address Wellington Street. RC records show (perhaps) Thomas, address Market Street)