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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: Dette on Wednesday 02 November 16 20:04 GMT (UK)
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Hi All, I am trying to establish whether John Glenday is an ancestor of my husband's. I would like to know if I can obtain John Glenday's birth record and his enlistment papers please.
John was born in Cupar in 1822 and was a shoemaker before he enlisted in the 50th Regiment of Foot. I know that he was in Sydney NSW in 1841 before the regiment was sent to Madras India in that year.
Thank you in advance for any assistance.
Dette Glenday
Brisbane Qld Australia
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Have you checked the Old Parish Records on Scotlands People for a birth/baptismal entry entry?
www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
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Not yet. I will do that today.
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Hi
died 1893 Surrey
Just to clarify - John died in Battle which is in Sussex - not Surrey
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You probably have the 1891 details but will post them for info
1891 for Ebor House Station Rd Bexhill Sussex
John Glenday 69 living on own means b Scotland
Anne 66 b Ireland
Anne 33 b Bengal
Jane 31 b Staffs - Newcastle under Lyme
Frances Stevens 14 servant b Bexhill
RG12 Piece 767 Folio 37 Page 13
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And 1861
John Glenday 39 b Scotland Paymaster Sgt 3rd Staffs regiment
Anne 34 b Ireland
Elizabeth Ginn step daughter 8 b Bengal
Alexander 6 ditto
Lucy 5 ditto
Anne 3 ditto
Jane 8mths b Newcastle under Lyme Staffs
RG9 Piece 1916 Folio 111 Page 1
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Hi,
Thanks for the census info but I already have all of that. I know all about his life after 1841 until his death in 1893. What I am looking for is how to view his enlistment papers and his birth/baptism records.
Thanks.
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Did you have any luck on Scotlands People?
Do you know where he married - Scotland, Ireland or India
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He married in Bengal - as per Family Search
Name John Glenday
Birth Date 1822
Age 31
Spouse's Name Ann Ginn
Spouse's Birth Date 1827
Spouse's Age 26
Event Date 02 Mar 1853
Event Place Kussowlie Bengal, India
Father's Name John Glenday
Spouse's Father's Name Berkeley Vincent
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Hi Carole,
I know all about the Indian marriage to Anne Ginn (nee Vincent). He was previously married to a woman called Francina and had four children with her all in Madras. I don't know anything about Francina or where they married - I just have the birth of four children (one of whom may be my husband's great-great-grandfather.
I did have a look at Scotland's People but his birth/baptism doesn't show up. Nor a marriage before 1840. John's regiment, the 50th Foot, was sent to Australia as an escort for convicts and they were returning to India when his ship, the Fergusson, ran aground on the Great Barrier Reef. The passengers and crew were rescued by the other two ships with them (containing the rest of the regiment) and taken to India. I don't have a muster list for this ship nor do I know when the Regiment was sent to Australia initially.
Do you know if I can view the contents of a National Archives UK series (WO 12) without going to London?
TIA
Dette
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Possibly father John's burial?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01isf/
When you have John Jnr's birth, his father's death (if above) will be on SP & should give his wife & parents names including mother's maiden name if informant knew those details?
Possible family connections?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ise/
Annie
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The 1861 census shows the above John Glenday b 1796 Ceres and living in Cupar with wife Isabella. John was a linen manufacturer
Turning to John Glenday b 1822.
The Glenday children shown on the 1861 entry are all born after 1853 - where are the 4 children you mention from his first marriage?
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Is it possible to list all children by name in order of birth please (eldest to youngest) as he may have followed the naming pattern?
Carole, did his death 1893 show an age?
Annie
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Carole, did his death 1893 show an age?
He was 71 - death registered March qtr 1893
Dette
Which document shows his birthplace as Cupar
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Thanks Carole, age seems consistent.
Did you read my mind ;D
Which document shows his birthplace as Cupar
Glenday is not a 'typical' Fife name but appears more of an Angus (Forfar) name from what I've looked at so far?
Not investigated it fully though, just testing the water just now for facts.
Annie
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Did you read my mind
Great minds etc etc. Couldn't find him on any other census apart from 1861 and 1891 so wondered where Dette got his actual birthplace from. Children from marriage to Francina are on FS but birthyears are way out unless there were 2 couples in India called John Glenday and Francina
Births show as follows:
William 7.11.1843
Thomas 26.7.1846
Mary 11.4.1871
William 21.1.1873
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Hi Carole and Annie
John's children from his first marriage are as follows:
William (born 7 Nov 1843 in Madras) (this may be my husband's ancestor)
Jane (born 10 March 1845 in Madras) died 6 Oct 1846 Madras
Thomas (born 26 july 1846 in Madras) died 1 Aug 1846 Madras
John P(Patrick?) born 5 May 1848 Madras died 1 May 1882 (he married and had two children all of whom died between 1870 and 1876).
John's children from his second marriage are:
Anne born 5 Jan 1853 at Ferozapore Bengal
Alexander born 1854 in Wuzeerabad Bengal
Lucy born 8 Feb 1856 in Wuzeerabad Bengal died January Qtr 1942 in Sudbury (she was a teacher)
Jane born 1859 Newcastle Under Lyme died ?
John Charles born 26 Oct 1862 Newcastle Under Lyme died 1926
Edward Albert born 5 Dec 1864 Newcastle Under Lyme died 1956 Oxford (clerk in holy orders)
Henry born 2 June 1867 Newcastle Under Lyme died 1920 Richmond
Anne (John's second wife) died in 1911 in Thanet Kent.
I got John's birth from his Chelsea pension papers in 1862. On this he states that he was born in the Parish of Cooper in Fife and was attested for the 50th Regiment of Foot at Queens Square Middlesex on 11 March 1840 at the age of 19yrs 2/12 months. His trade is listed as shoemaker. He served 17 yrs and 9 months of his 21 yrs of service in India as part of the 50th then the 61st Regiment of Foot before being seconded to the Staffordshire Rifles as paymaster when he returned to England in 1860. He lived the rest of his life in Newcastle Under Lime and died in Boxhill Sussex in 1893 (my mistake earlier about Surrey).
I hope this makes sense.
TIA
Dette
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Hmm........Long time away ???
Births show as follows:
William 7.11.1843
Thomas 26.7.1846
GAP 25 yrs
Mary 11.4.1871
William 21.1.1873
2 x William ???
Dette,
Do you have any other info. from the children Carole has named?
Is the marriage of their parents listed on their births?
The strange thing is no John (named after his own father) but then, there may have been reason, who knows?
Annie
Added..Crossed post
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Annie,
The second two children are the son and daughter of John P Glenday (son of the John Glenday I'm trying to research). Mary was 5 years old when she died and William was 6 months. Their mother was a women called Francina Lawrence who John P married in 1870. Francina died in 1873 two months before her son. John P died in 1882.
Dette
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Was just about to post that, (father JP)? thanks.
Wondering now why John wasn't baptised or was the record lost?
Now wondering about mother Isabella, no children named after her, could she have been a 2nd wife?
Annie
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Strange that 2 John Glenday's should both marry Francina's in India approx 30yrs apart.
Just found John and Ann still in Staffordshire in 1871 and 1881. 1881 they are mistranscribed as Gloudny on Ancestry
Must have moved to Sussex between 1881-1891
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William (born 7 Nov 1843 in Madras) (this may be my husband's ancestor)
Dette
Dette,
Which child of William (1843) do you think is the descendant?
Do you have a marriage/death for him with named father or any other info. to concentrate on finding out?
Annie
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Carole,
The transcriptions on "Fancestry" are becoming a joke.
'Gloudny' - unreal!
Another one for the thread 'strangest mistranscriptions' or whatever it's called?
Annie
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Hi Annie,
My husband's line is as follows:
William Oliver Hathaway Glenday (born 1841?) married twice - second marriage produced son Bertram Oliver (b 1890 Calcutta) who is the father of Ralph Arnold (b 1918 Calcutta) who is the father of Beresford Arnold Ambrose (b 1941 Calcutta) who is the father of Mark (my husband) (b1968 in England)
William Oliver Hathaway Glenday gave his father's name as John on both of his marriages in Calcutta. William worked as some sort of orderly at the hospital in Fort William which is above Calcutta. He died in 1900 and his occupation was listed as apothecary.
Dette
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William Oliver Hathaway Glenday gave his father's name as John on both of his marriages in Calcutta. William worked as some sort of orderly at the hospital in Fort William which is above Calcutta. He died in 1900 and his occupation was listed as apothecary.
Dette,
Did the marriages or death state the occupation of father on either? or mother's name?
The middle names for William have me wondering to be honest.
From my point of view they don't match up with possible scottish surnames but it's only my thought for now.
John (if he was father) had quite a stance/status in the Army which I would have thought would have been recorded. I may be wrong but I'm sure someone with better knowledge will correct me on that?
Middle names such as yours, Oliver & Hathaway (to me) would be significant surnames of g/parents (female) 'usually'?
Have you looked for marriages with Glenday/Oliver or Glenday/Hathaway?
As I said, I may be wrong but it's what I've come across before although not always the case as people are also given middle names of others significant in their parents lives.
Annie
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There was only one family named Glenday in Cupar, Fife having children at the relevant time - father was indeed a John Glenday (as already mentioned) and 4 youngest children's baptisms are noted at Cupar as Glenday between 1830 and 1839 - mother Isabella Ireland. There were 3 older daughters shown on 1851 census i.e. Ann bc.1824 - cannot find her baptism, Euphemia bc.1825 (found baptism 1825 on SP as Glendey) and Margaret bc.1827 (found baptisms 1826 as Glendy) who are shown as born in Cupar - cannot find baptisms for John or eldest dau. Ann. The marriage between John and Isabella was as follows:
John Lundie Glenday married Isabella Ireland 11/8/1823 Edinburgh.
So, if John Glenday was indeed born 1822 this was before his parents married so his baptism may have been in his mothers name of Ireland (although I can't find it).
Are you sure that John was a widower when he married Anne? If so, he had 2 sons named John - one born 1848 from 1st marriage and the other in 1862 from 2nd which seems rather odd???
Annette
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Annette,
That's why I'm asking Dette about her husband's direct ancestor as (to me), having gone through what you have now posted, I am wondering about the parentage of said John?
Likewise, I find an inconsistency there?
I'm wondering why all the research on someone who "(may be my husband's ancestor)" with no real pointer other than the name "John Glenday"?
I'm wondering what info. other than father's name can link John (born Cupar, Fife)?
Am I being picky?
Annie
Added, I did mention whether Isabella was a 2nd wife possibly?
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I am trying to eliminate this John Glenday from being a part of my husband's family. That is why I am pursuing him. William Oliver Hathaway Glenday is a part of the family and I don't know where he got his names from. No mention of his parents other than his father's name of John on both of his marriage certificates. As this all happened in India, the information provided in the official records is sketchy at times. Mothers are not recorded unless on a baptism and sometimes on a death but never on a marriage. Naming patterns aren't helping either. There are no family photographs either. All of Mark's family are dark skinned - a lot of the time they are mistaken for native Indians whereas they are actually part British, Maruitian and Portageuse.
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Dette,
I'm not being cheeky but your way of eliminating is not going to solve anything until you can identify & clarify William & his parents.
Have you any documents at all which refer to his father John being in the Army (&/or) which Regiment or his occupation as a Shoemaker?
Occupations are high up on eliminating people & both the above were good occupations which may crop up somewhere?
Have you searched the Wills on SP for father John in Cupar?
Of course there may not be one but worth checking as the Index is FREE.
Do you have an actual address for him in Cupar, have you found on any census where he was born?
Annie
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Been doing some digging re. the 4 children born to John Glenday and Francina in the 1840's.
John Glenday is shown as Gunner (one record says Corporal) in the 3rd Battalion Artillery.
On FindMyPast I then found his will dated 3rd May 1848 leaving all to his wife Francina - although I cannot as yet find a burial entry the fact that his will is there would suggest he died around this time - he is then shown as General Number 1471, Corporal in the 'B' Company Second Battalion Artillery.
I then found what has to be his marriage except it has been recorded as James Glenday - there are in fact 2 records, one clearly James, the other a bit of a mess but looks more like James than anything else.
James Glenday, bachelor, Gunner in the 3rd. Battalion Artillery and Frances Oliver of St. Thomas Mount, Indo Briton - married 19/5/1841 St. Thomas Mount, Madras.
Since all baptisms/burials of children and his will all show him as John (Gunner) can only assume that the name 'James' shown at his marriage to Frances Oliver was incorrect.
So, some records show him in 2nd Battalion but most as 3rd. although I can't seem to find out anything about these regiments. Think those more skilled in army research need to try and unravel this.
In conclusion, I think there were 2 different John Glenday's - one in 2nd./3rd Battalion Foot Artillery from 1841 (marriage) and 1848 (will, last child's baptism/burial, and his own death) and the other being the title of this thread who was in 50th/51st Regiment. They definitely appear to be 2 different John Glenday's to me.
Was the name 'James' at marriage a mistake as everything else shows him as 'John'?
Annette
Added: 3rd Battalion possibly part of 95th Regiment of Foot??
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Just remembered that soldiers killed overseas at that time do not appear in burial records, nor do their service records appear in army service records now available online. By dying they seem to be obliterated.
My own paternal grandmothers eldest brother Charles Scopes (in Hussars) took his family with him when he went to Bangalore, India. Twin daughters Kathleen and Eileen were born in 1897 and died soon after - Kathleen died and buried 4/6/1897 and Eileen died and buried 15/7/1897. Charles himself died 9/6/1897 but although burials for the girls appear on familysearch/findmypast there is absolutely no trace of a burial for Charles, nor does he appear in service records. I only found out this information by paying a professional researcher some 30 odd years ago who found out the details from East India Office (?). Something like that anyway.
There must surely be some records at Kew for John (James?) Glenday who was in 3rd. Battalion Artillery.
Annette
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I wonder if the name Haddaway is correct?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG2K-BB3
"William Olliver Henry Glenday"
Died 11 Oct 1900
Age 55
Birth 1845
Occupation Doctor
Annie
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Does William use all names on all documents?
If so, is there any doubt with the name Haddaway/Henry?
Does he ever just use William O H or any other alternative?
Is his age consistent on any documents where age is given & do none give a specific d.o.b/y.o.b?
Do any mention 'him' being born in different ways e.g. Britain. UK, Scotland?
Annie
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I just have the birth of four children (one of whom may be my husband's great-great-grandfather.
Dette
Does his son (g g/father) give his father's full name on his marriage & do you have the son's birth cert?
Does it give his father's full name as in William Oliver Haddaway Glenday or another alternative?
Annie
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Dette - from googling etc. I now think that 3rd (later 2nd) Battalion Artillery was actually the Madras Artillery - saw some extracts online from Muster Rolls which showed soldiers names, ages, date of birth, where they were born and when/on what ship they arrived from England.
I suggest you ask on the Army forum here if this battalion was indeed likely to be the Madras Artillery and, if so, you would then need to check Muster Rolls where hopefully you'll find 'your' John Glenday and finally learn where he came from.
Annette
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Have now found the 1st marriage of the John Glenday from Cupar - he married in Chatham, Kent before he went to India.
John Glenday, of full age, Private - 50 Regt., address 'Barracks', father John Glenday, Linen Manufacturer.
Margaret Patterson, of full age, address 'River House', father James Patterson, Baker.
married 27th June 1840 St. Mary's, Chatham, Kent
1. This confirms he was the son of John Glenday (from his occupation) in Cupar.
2. If he was indeed born 1822 he told a 'porkie' as he would only have been 18!
Perhaps Margaret went with him to India, possibly dying en route - certainly can't see any children born to John and Margaret in India, nor a death for a Margaret.
So, 'your' John, the father of William, is clearly the other John Glenday in 3rd. Battalion Artillery who married Frances Oliver in 1841 (as James?) in India.
At this point we do not know when/where this John Glenday was born but the fact that his will appears on FindMyPast dated in 1848 would indicate he died then or soon after (and also why no more children after 1848).
You need to locate and get a check done of Muster Rolls from 1841 to 1848 in Madras. This should then give you the details of where he came from and his age.
Annette
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Great find Annette ;)
Confirms a couple of things at least & helps a lot.
Annie
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Dette,
Following on from Annette & her great find ;)
From yourself Reply #27
“All of Mark's family are dark skinned - a lot of the time they are mistaken for native Indians whereas they are actually part British, Maruitian and Portageuse”
From Annette Reply #29
“James Glenday, bachelor, Gunner in the 3rd. Battalion Artillery and Frances Oliver of St. Thomas Mount, Indo Briton”
Google says “Definition of Indo–Briton, a person born in India of mixed Indian and British descent”
Could this mean he was born in India too, to an Indian mother (confusing)?
As Annette has put you on the right trail & with her suggestion “You need to locate and get a check done of Muster Rolls from 1841 to 1848 in Madras. This should then give you the details of where he came from and his age”.
Hopefully that will uncover some good info. to further your search?
Could this be the birth & bapt. for Frances married to John/James who’s marriage took place in Madras?
I thought the names to be too much of a coincidence?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG4Z-HFD
Frances Oliver
Born 18 Jan 1822
Christened 25 Nov 1822 at Arcot, Madras, India
Father William Charles Oliver
Mother Mary Frances
Annie