RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: bibliotaphist on Thursday 03 November 16 22:35 GMT (UK)
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Well this one came as a surprise to me: GRO indexes for births and deaths now searchable on gro.gov.uk (https://www.gro.gov.uk/) - with mothers' maiden names pre-1911, and middle names spelled out in full even where the scanned/printed indexes only have middle initials!
Thanks to the m.m.n. I've already been able to track down the correct birth reg. for my one remaining great-grandparent, which I couldn't do on FreeBMD because there were too many possibilities.
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???
I can't see any such link to the indexes?
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http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp :-\
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http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp :-\
Sorry, yes - there.
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Maybe I'm being dense?
But that takes you to the Certificate Ordering Service? :-\
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Maybe I'm being dense?
But that takes you to the Certificate Ordering Service? :-\
Keep going and it takes you to a new page to get a reactivation code,and then you can search pre 1911 with a MMN !!!
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
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Are you saying that I have to register/login first?
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Are you saying that I have to register/login first?
Yes I had to log in and then they sent me an activation code which then took me to the page that you can search on.
Go down to the section which says "Order Certificates Online and search the GRO historic birth and death indexes" on the usual ordering page.
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That certainly is a bonus having the maiden name before 1911 - Thank you.
It asked me to register again, but I clicked on it and it sent me an email, and when I clicked on that link it did it automatically. I think if you've ever ordered certificates you will already be registered with them.
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Wow - that really is brilliant, I've just found a maiden name from 1939, I knew his mother was a widow when she married but couldn't find her previous marriage. That's solved it without having to get the certificate.
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More info and a quote from the GRO, at: http://www.oneplacestudy.org/blog/?p=1422 (http://www.oneplacestudy.org/blog/?p=1422)
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Excellent! Thanks for the heads-up.
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Well I've just found another child to my 2xGGrandparents of whom I didn't know anything. ;D Now have to find the death as he obviously didn't survive.
Annoyingly, though, the one birth I'd really like to have found out the maiden name for has a blank against it in their index. :-\ I don't know for definite its the correct birth because the child was baptised under her mother's maiden name in the workhouse but I can't find a birth for her registered as such but the mother has previously been in a relationship where her other children's births were registered under the father's surname and I did wonder whether that had happened this time. In another similar situation where the child was born in the workhouse, the birth was registered by the Workhouse Master so I would have thought that would have been the case this time and the birth would have been registered under the mother's surname. Doesn't look like it and unfortunately as the Lambeth area Register Office charge a fortune for a search where the reference isn't known, I may have to take a punt at the birth cert with the missing mother's surname at some point or, as they say, let sleeping dogs lie since its not a direct line and I was just curious. As I lose both mother and child after the 1851 Census, but I know the daughter was alive around 1914 as she is mentioned, although not by name, in a letter I have a copy of, I can't trace them any further forward anyway. I suspect the mother became involved in another relationship and just assumed the man's surname again sadly. :-X She had previous at that. ;)
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Wow, I'll be busy over the weekend tidying up a load of sideshoots! :) :)
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The age on deaths pre 1865 is also going to be very useful. ;D
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Thanks for posting that information :)
sami
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I thought the GRO adding these indexes would be a waste of their time considering they're already on numerous sites but the extra maiden names, middle names and extra ages at death are fantastic!
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I've been able to find a birth and death of another child of a couple between censuses . But I must admit I was working with a pair of uncommon surnames and knew the district.
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This is really wonderful. I had a quick look last night but will be doing a more careful search today. I have the delightful combination of White/Smith in the births!!
However I am hoping to narrow down the possibilities by using this facility and the registration districts.
The only slight grumble I have is the narrow year search, two years +/- which increases the search time taken.
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A couple of cautions:-
1. The database is not complete. I have a couple of birth entries from FreeBMD (confirmed from the images - handwritten ones) which don't appear.
2. The age at death may be in years or MONTHS. I've cross checked a few already with LancashireBMD and CheshireBMD.
Only checked early ones so far.
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I have finally found my grandad's 9th sibling,I was always told that both my grandparents came from families of 10 children,but with a common surname never could find the missing one. She was born only months after her older brother in 1899 but died in the same 1/4.All the surviving children have 3 christian names,she was only given one.So they knew she wouldn't survive I think.
This will be ideal for those for whom the 1911 census says more children born that you've found.
Shame you can only search within 2 years of a date and you have to specify male or female though.
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Thank you! :)
I've just found one of those little ones whose short lives miss the census records.......I wondered why there was a bigger than usual gap between the children.
Nanny Jan
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Am I doing something wrong? I'm activated, have the search form, got all excited, put in what I wanted to search for and nothing. So I put in one I already have the certificate for , just so I could see what comes up ( early 1900's) and it said no results found?
Edit - I took the registration district out and out the GRO code in but not a page number and I got results! Now to see if I can find who I'm looking for.
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I have been using this for some weeks (as one of a number of researchers asked to test the system by GRO).
It certainly is a great step forward when looking to track down those elusive ancestors or eliminate possible matches - I suspect quite a few people may find that entries they have assumed to be correct from the old indexes are not actually their family at all !
The search engine is quite restrictive, and that is something that has certainly been fed back to GRO - but I do know they were worried about the system being overloaded with searches (which is also why they didn't announce the launch in advance) - hopefully they will relax the mandatory fields once the system has settled down.
Because of the restrictions on searching I have found that for speculative searches with limited information it is still better to use FreeBMD to find potential matches and then use the GRO system to rule them in/out. It is interesting to see that there are quite a few entries where the two indexes disagree but I believe that the GRO index is new, it is not a copy of that used by FreeBMD, but has been re-done from the digitised images of the GRO registers, so "should" be more accurate.
There are more changes coming shortly - keep an eye on the GRO site.......
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Hasn't half slowed down now - first few searches an hour ago were very quick!
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I am very happy as I have now found the two most obvious ones in our trees for which there were too many possibilities to buy all the certificates! Now to locate which of the many deaths are the most likely - these were two born and died before the 1911 census.
You do realise by posting this link, the whole of this weekend is taking on a very different shape :)
Many thanks for letting the rest of us know about it!
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Many thx for posting this information - finally found a missing Uncle (indicated by the 1911 census) ...
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You do realise by posting this link, the whole of this weekend is taking on a very different shape :)
;D
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Thanks from me too. ;D. I've found my great grandfather named his eldest son after his younger brother who died aged 5, although GGF was only 6 at the time. Nobody in the family, including his children, knew anything about this.
In addition to the issues Andrew mentioned, there are also a few mother's maiden names incorrectly spelt such as Towles instead of Fowles. Not unexpected considering the handwriting. Playing with the search found the entries in the end and a very welcome improvement.
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Just found this and activated my Account... Many thanks for Posting! (I might even have another go at my elusive Wilson Grandfather:-)
Cheers,
Romilly.
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Thank you
Waiting for activation. Is Scotland included or is it England and Wales only?
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Thank you
Waiting for activation. Is Scotland included or is it England and Wales only?
Only GRO England & Wales as GRO Scotland has always been separate.
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Well I've stuck my neck out and ordered a birth cert. Will have to wait and see if it was the right one.
The process of elimination seems to suggest that it is.
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Had an email about this yesterday and instantly solved 2 puzzles. One was a possible death of a 4* great grandmother in 1851 (but the recorded death was a 10 year old girl!) and the other was the birth of her daughter in 1839, baptised as Gwenllian but possible birth registration as Gwen (right quarter, district and mother's maiden name). Will confirm details before buying the certificate but really pleased with this extra info available.
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Thank you
Waiting for activation. Is Scotland included or is it England and Wales only?
Only GRO England & Wales as GRO Scotland has always been separate.
:) Thanks , still handy.
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Thanks for that - reminded me I needed to order a death cert too. Makes it much easier
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Thank you so much for posting! This is such a useful tool and has already produced really useful results, has identified a number of children who died in between censuses and has helped answer a question about my gg grandmother that I had no idea how to solve previously. And its only day one!
William
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Its certainly a step in the right direction, but I feel the search criteria is a little restrictive. For instance it would be nice to be able to blanket search a maiden name without having to specify a specific year.
Cheers.
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Another big thank you for posting this information. It has already confirmed various ideas and the converse so the hunt continues ;D
Paul
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Its certainly a step in the right direction, but I feel the search criteria is a little restrictive. For instance it would be nice to be able to blanket search a maiden name without having to specify a specific year.
Cheers.
Have you tried to do that ? I have done that exact same thing this morning and it worked for me - surname and gender only.
Sandra
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Found some handy guides to Certs on the GRO. They are direct links to the PDF files.
Birth , Marriage , Death.
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/images/Birth%20Cert%20PDF.pdf
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/images/Marriage%20Cert%20PDF.pdf
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/images/Death%20Cert%20PDF.pdf
Guide to searching GRO
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/images/Guide%20to%20searching%20the%20online%20historic%20indexes.pdf
List of registration districts
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/images/GRO%20Registration%20District%20Book.pdf
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Its certainly a step in the right direction, but I feel the search criteria is a little restrictive. For instance it would be nice to be able to blanket search a maiden name without having to specify a specific year.
Cheers.
Have you tried to do that ? I have done that exact same thing this morning and it worked for me - surname and gender only.
Sandra
Didnt work for me. It said in angry red text "A valid year must be selected"
??? Poor Turnip lol.
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You do realise that if we all find missing people and order certs for them ,the GRO will be inundated and the service will slow to a crawl. And when WDYTYA starts again it will get even slower ;D
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Yes it may well do so Carol, but don't you think it will be worth the wait knowing that you are 99.9% sure you are ordering the correct cert?
This new system will save us Rootschatters quite a bit of money by not having paid for a cert that wasn't the right one.
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I suppose the GRO must of had this data around for a long time? or the have just started to index maiden names? They must of scanned the birth certs, and looked for maiden names.
Turnip.
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Well this one came as a surprise to me: GRO indexes for births and deaths now searchable on gro.gov.uk (https://www.gro.gov.uk/) - with mothers' maiden names pre-1911, and middle names spelled out in full even where the scanned/printed indexes only have middle initials!
Thanks to the m.m.n. I've already been able to track down the correct birth reg. for my one remaining great-grandparent, which I couldn't do on FreeBMD because there were too many possibilities.
Yes perhaps they are developing their index (testing are correcting & load calculating) to enable the public to purchase uncertified copies of birth death & marriage images in the "near" future.
Cheers
Guy
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Fabulous find :)
A big thumbs up to pstainthorp for spotting this👍👍
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Its certainly a step in the right direction, but I feel the search criteria is a little restrictive. For instance it would be nice to be able to blanket search a maiden name without having to specify a specific year.
Cheers.
This issue was discussed further up the thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=758727.msg6091928#msg6091928 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=758727.msg6091928#msg6091928)
I have been using this for some weeks (as one of a number of researchers asked to test the system by GRO).
The search engine is quite restrictive, and that is something that has certainly been fed back to GRO - but I do know they were worried about the system being overloaded with searches (which is also why they didn't announce the launch in advance) - hopefully they will relax the mandatory fields once the system has settled down.
Because of the restrictions on searching I have found that for speculative searches with limited information it is still better to use FreeBMD to find potential matches and then use the GRO system to rule them in/out. It is interesting to see that there are quite a few entries where the two indexes disagree but I believe that the GRO index is new, it is not a copy of that used by FreeBMD, but has been re-done from the digitised images of the GRO registers, so "should" be more accurate.
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Fabulous find :)
A big thumbs up to pstainthorp for spotting this👍👍
Credit where credit's due; I found out about it from the Facebook page of the Birmingham and Midland Society for Genealogy (https://www.facebook.com/Birmingham-and-Midland-Society-for-Genealogy-and-Heraldry-10150164553645160/ (https://www.facebook.com/Birmingham-and-Midland-Society-for-Genealogy-and-Heraldry-10150164553645160/))
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Nevertheless you alerted RC that's still a big thumbs up from me ;D👍 ;D👍
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Its certainly a step in the right direction, but I feel the search criteria is a little restrictive. For instance it would be nice to be able to blanket search a maiden name without having to specify a specific year.
Cheers.
This issue was discussed further up the thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=758727.msg6091928#msg6091928 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=758727.msg6091928#msg6091928)
I have been using this for some weeks (as one of a number of researchers asked to test the system by GRO).
The search engine is quite restrictive, and that is something that has certainly been fed back to GRO - but I do know they were worried about the system being overloaded with searches (which is also why they didn't announce the launch in advance) - hopefully they will relax the mandatory fields once the system has settled down.
Because of the restrictions on searching I have found that for speculative searches with limited information it is still better to use FreeBMD to find potential matches and then use the GRO system to rule them in/out. It is interesting to see that there are quite a few entries where the two indexes disagree but I believe that the GRO index is new, it is not a copy of that used by FreeBMD, but has been re-done from the digitised images of the GRO registers, so "should" be more accurate.
Thanks for the heads up ::)
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There's reports of a forthcoming limited GRO trial of a new service offering a limited number of uncertified copies of birth/death entries at a reduced price of £6.
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great to have maiden names before 1911...............
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duplicate post ;D
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I think we've broken it ...
Site down :( :(
And .. breathe ... it's back
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This is making a rainy afternoon more bearable!
I've managed to fill in quite a few gaps where children have died young. No major breakthroughs for me, but I'm sure this'll be an amazing resource for people who have brick walls after 1837. If you're researching a common surname for example, having the mother's maiden name will reduce the amount of certificates you might have to buy on speculation, so cutting down the cost A LOT.
It's running quite slowly today, but that's to be expected! The only complain I would have is this: it's annoying that you have to specify a gender - for example, if you're searching for a child who died young within a certain timescale, you have to search twice.
My tip to everyone is this: don't forget to look for children born in the second quarter of 1911 - i.e. born after the census, but until now their mother's maiden name hasn't been available.
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I have done the inevitable and forgotten my password after 4 attempts using regular passwords. :o So am awaiting an email within 1 hour. Always an obstacle to cross when trying to access exciting indexes.
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This feature is proving quite handy. Ive confirmed a few maiden names I had on my tree, and they all match up perfectly. Nice when you know your research is solid.
8)
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Managed to get in but it is asking me for a mere 2 year date range and a gender.
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Only just discovered this - big thanks!
Does anyone know why the verification thingy is only valid for 24 hours? Does this mean you have to get a new one every day? Why?
I haven't started searching yet so perhaps I've got that wrong???
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Dont wait an hour to check your emails Coombs, I forgot my password too. Had email from GRO in around 30 seconds! Happy hunting.
Frostyknight
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Creep that I am :o I've just rung GRO and thanked them profusely for this added facility ;D
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Dont wait an hour to check your emails Coombs, I forgot my password too. Had email from GRO in around 30 seconds! Happy hunting.
Frostyknight
Thanks.
Got used to the search engine now. I shall probably be up until 2am now looking for the lost children and ages at deaths. Also i have bookmarked the page of course.
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Creep that I am :o I've just rung GRO and thanked them profusely for this added facility ;D
Be careful....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UylAeQ_0pq4
lol ;D
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Yes the site is a bit slow for me but not to worry as it must be getting lots and lost of requests for searches. Already I have found a few missing siblings for just a few names. I will be busy this weekend. Such new genealogy databases are like winning the pools.
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Thanks for the link. Still hunting the two children that died that my great grandmother listed on the 1911 census. I've used the surname and mother's maiden name but only the three living children are listed with registered births so back to the drawing board.
Regards panda
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I know this is a stupid question but I have a child Henry James ?, I have never found his birth, he is not listed under his elder siblings surname, I know his mother's maiden name and year of birth and possible place of birth, just by chance I offered this info up to the new GRO site, nothing came up as I obviously need a surname, any ideas how to find this child, I have searched for over 20 years to no avail, I have him on every census, marriage and death, he was born in 1874, all siblings born prior to this date are registered under a different surname to those born after him
I know a stupid question but I thought someone might come up with a good idea
Louisa Maud
???
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The Births only go up to 1911 - not that I am complaining at all. This is a fantastic free resource.
And the verification notice that says it is available for 24 hours doesn't mean you have to re-register after that time. It is just that 24 hours is the time you have to actually verify your registration by clicking the link they sent in an email.
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Louisa Maud
When I've got a problem with the surname, I use free bmd, put in the christian name(s), choose a date range and either a county or a registration district.
Have you tried doing that?
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Good that you can do a 2 years date range search of all births in a district (Eg Smith 1840-1844) and get all the mmns at the same time. Handy for less common names such as Wallaker in Rochford 1840-1844, any mmns are Salmon and Ashby.
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Girl Guide
I have but with Christian names which are common and no maiden name listed 1874 I am at a loss, I 'll just have to keep trying
Thank you G G
LM
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Hi louisa maud
Does he live beyond the 1939 register ? If you have his exact DoB from that , providing it was correct, you could narrow a search down to a certain Qtr in the year, and as girl guide says, just use his forenames - you have a possible area too - whatever surnames come up - by process of elimination - try each one with this new index you may strike lucky if the maiden name you have was used.
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Just my luck he died in 1931, all census point to 1874 except his marriage Nov 1898 which makes his year of birth as 1873, no baptisms found, lots of mothers with same Christian name but they don't show maiden names
1881 birth place Clerkenwell
1891 St Giles
1901 and 1911 London Middlesex
Might have to just put him to one side again for the next 20 years !!
Thank you
LM
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Just my luck he died in 1931, all census point to 1874 except his marriage Nov 1898 which makes his year of birth as 1873, no baptisms found, lots of mothers with same Christian name but they don't show maiden names
1881 birth place Clerkenwell
1891 St Giles
1901 and 1911 London Middlesex
Might have to just put him to one side again for the next 20 years !!
Thank you
LM
Are you able to find any electoral records for those dates? They may have the surname for your missing person.
Good luck.
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They might not be recorded under the maiden surname you initially expect - found one where for both it was a second marriage and their first son was recorded with the wife's first married name. Then I could not find my grandfather with the expected mother's maiden name of Purvis. His mother was illegitimate and her mother's subsequent married name was Dobson. Found grandfather and younger siblings with mother's maiden name Dobson and older siblings with mother's maiden name Purvis. It wouldn't be as much fun if it was straightforward!
William
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He used the surname of his siblings born after him, found everything about him except birth
You are right William it would not be as much fun if it were straightforward, but 20 years I would have thought something would have popped up
Thanks folks
LM
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Thank you pstainthorp for posting about this. I've just found another child for my 2x great grandparents so I'm well chuffed, especially as she was born in Northumberland rather than Durham like all her siblings.
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Thanks for the link. Still hunting the two children that died that my great grandmother listed on the 1911 census. I've used the surname and mother's maiden name but only the three living children are listed with registered births so back to the drawing board.
Regards panda
I know you've probably done this, but did you try the spelling variations tabs on both fields and not exact only. Also try just putting in the surname and no maiden name and see what comes up. Then you can read through and see if any fit the bill . I had bother at first with mine who were deaths up to 1911 census too, but I got them in the end- At least on this branch of the tree!
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Very useful if you find a birth on, say, FreeBMD which has no first name i.e. Male SMITH, Female SMITH then you can use the index to find the maiden name and decide whether this is yours or not. I had a Stephen and a Theophalus who never appeared together in a census both born about 1847 in Sussex. The only one I could find was male born S1847 and this now turns out to have the right mother's maiden name.
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I am thrilled to bits now as Girl Guide has solved my problem of 20 years or so by finding the child I have been searching for, I am now about to order the cert to complete the family
Huge thanks to girl guide, and to all who offered suggestions
Louisa Maud
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I have now ordered the said cert, hopefully it will solve a few questions.
I like the idea of how to go about ordering certs now, so much easier than before, well done GRO
Louisa Maud
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Amazing that back in 2004 I hoped that one day the GRO would re index the pre 1866 death indexes with the age at death and would re index the 1837-1911 births with the mothers maiden name. And now we have such a facility.
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I am thrilled to bits now as Girl Guide has solved my problem of 20 years or so by finding the child I have been searching for, I am now about to order the cert to complete the family
Huge thanks to girl guide, and to all who offered suggestions
Louisa Maud
Congrats! and well done to girl guide.
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And a well done from me too ;D ;
Good job girl guide :)
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I'm so glad I was able to solve Louisa's brick wall for her. It is so satisfying when that missing piece of information has been found.
I'm sure many of us have been in that situation before. I am hoping to solve mine when I receive a birth cert that I have ordered.
The new service from the GRO will be an enormous boon to so many of us with brick walls to tumble.
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I am thrilled to bits now as Girl Guide has solved my problem of 20 years or so by finding the child I have been searching for, I am now about to order the cert to complete the family
Have I missed something ??? I was following this thread with interest but can't see what happened....
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Deirdre
I found the birth registration for a child that Louise had been looking for for 20 years using the new GRO Online Search facility.
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Deirdre
I found the birth registration for a child that Louise had been looking for for 20 years using the new GRO Online Search facility.
That's fantastic, and what I assumed, but it's rather confusing as there's no mention of it on here.
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Deirdre look at reply#66 on Page 8 and you will see the original mention by Louisa.
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Deirdre look at reply#66 on Page 8 and you will see the original mention by Louisa.
That was what Louisa was looking for, not what you found. Anyway, never mind, glad you were able to help.
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That was what Louisa was looking for, not what you found. Anyway, never mind, glad you were able to help.
Perhaps she found this?
James Henry Ellis, birth registered Holborn, March 1874
mother's maiden surname Thompson
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Yes that is exactly what I found. Louisa hadn't thought to switch the names round.
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I've searched for a couple of births and it hasn't given the mothers maiden name, some that I know the child was illegitimate and others were I didn't know. Is safe to assume that generally this is the case. No maiden name - illegitimate birth? Has anyone else found this?
J
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I've searched for a couple of births and it hasn't given the mothers maiden name, some that I know the child was illegitimate and others were I didn't know. Is safe to assume that generally this is the case. No maiden name - illegitimate birth? Has anyone else found this?
J
Yes I have found the same thing
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What does it mean when one of the children has a different mother's maiden name than the others??
Children proven by censuses and baptisms to belong to the correct parents but each child has Hearn as the mother's maiden name then one is Graves? And another family, all children have Glover as the mother's maiden name and one is Turrell? Weird.
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Some possibilies are
1 The mother was previously married. Some births were registered using her maiden name, others under a previously married name
2 The GRO has made a transcription error
3 The record applies to a completely different child born in the same time and place while yours wasn't registered for some reason
4 Your proof wasn't as proven as you thought
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Some possibilies are
1 The mother was previously married. Some births were registered using her maiden name, others under a previously married name
2 The GRO has made a transcription error
3 The record applies to a completely different child born in the same time and place while yours wasn't registered for some reason
4 Your proof wasn't as proven as you thought
Either 2 or 3. Thanks StevieSteve.
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I am using the new GRO facility to help identify children who were born and died in between Censuses.
I would be interested in knowing what different ways, others are using the facilities.
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I've confirmed an extra child of my great grandmother, who I only found must have existed when the 1911 census came out.
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From http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=709961.9 I wonder what the chance is that the price for uncertified digital images may drop further in future or whether it will stay at the level of £6 per uncertified image if its been digitised already or £8 for one that has not been digitised (as per the link to the relevant Statutory Instrument in yesterday's Lost Cousins Newsletter)?
"(4) The Registrar General may charge such fees as appropriate in relation to making and delivering a copy of a record which is not a certified copy, but such a fee shall be no more than £3.00 per record."
As I stated earlier I foresee the initial price to be the same as a certificate but once the tendering process is conculded and the entries can be supplied dgitally the price could drop to the £3.00p level or even below that.
Both are snippets of Guy's post reply 12 on the above link, edited to emphasise my point.
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I have now ordered the said cert, hopefully it will solve a few questions.
I like the idea of how to go about ordering certs now, so much easier than before, well done GRO
Louisa Maud
And cheaper for Aussies ;) Thanks Brexit :D
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I am using the new GRO facility to help identify children who were born and died in between Censuses.
I would be interested in knowing what different ways, others are using the facilities.
I've used it to find maiden names and then marriages. I had several relatives I'd found on earlier censuses - husband, wife and children. They were too distant for me to want to get a birth certificate to find the mother's name, but now by using the GRO and looking for the births of all the children I've been able to identify the mother and find a marriage.
I also managed to confirm that my great grandfather had children by his second wife.
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I've been adding lost children to most of my 19th century ancestors - and it was a rare family that didn't lose at least 1 child. I've found 3 half siblings (all died in infancy) for my gt grandfather. I'd always wondered if his mother had any children from her 1st marriage. I've also found a twin for one of my gt gt grandmothers. Today I'm going to try and narrow down some Jones families in Wales - wish me luck :P
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Today I'm going to try and narrow down some Jones families in Wales - wish me luck :P
Almost as bad as looking at Wilsons in Lancashire!!
I wonder if this will cause a drop in subscriptions to some of the pay to view Sites? It seems a much more straightforward method of searching for UK BMDs to me...
Romilly.
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Today I'm going to try and narrow down some Jones families in Wales - wish me luck :P
Almost as bad as looking at Wilsons in Lancashire!!
I wonder if this will cause a drop in subscriptions to some of the pay to view Sites? It seems a much more straightforward method of searching for UK BMDs to me...
Romilly.
Romilly wasn't it you who never could find your grandad Wilson (he was buried near Wembley?)
Or am I cracking up ;D
Carol
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LOL Carol, - I think I did crack up looking for him!!
I've been looking for about 40yrs now, but can still only find him on the 1901 and 1911 Censuses...
Ancestry says he's Buried at St Andrew's Kingsbury, - but they deny all knowledge of him.
Romilly ::)
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LOL Carol, - I think I did crack up looking for him!!
I've been looking for about 40yrs now, but can still only find him on the 1901 and 1911 Censuses...
Ancestry says he's Buried at St Andrew's Kingsbury, - but they deny all knowledge of him.
Romilly ::)
No luck with this new GRO info yet then?
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Having to specify male or female and a search of only +/- 2 years of a specified date is a bit limiting, so a broad search on other sites followed by a search on GRO when I have some strong possibilities is what I'm doing at the moment.
Has anyone found any errors yet? I have found death of Mary Ann Eltham Q4 1837 Birmingham aged 13 years, but in reality she was 13 months when she died
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Having to specify male or female and a search of only +/- 2 years of a specified date is a bit limiting, so a broad search on other sites followed by a search on GRO when I have some strong possibilities is what I'm doing at the moment.
Has anyone found any errors yet? I have found death of Mary Ann Eltham Q4 1837 Birmingham aged 13 years, but in reality she was 13 months when she died
I have a four-month old's death, indexed as 4 years. I don't think it's handling ages at death given in months properly yet.
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Yes, LizzieL, just typing this as you posted:
Watch out for age at death for infants. What used to be shown as age 0 now appears as years, when in fact some could be months. I have found three in my tree who were aged 3 months, 8 months & 11 months at death now showing as 3, 8 & 11 years. A little mite whose death cert stated she was only 1 hour old is showing up as 0, also 12 hours and 20 hours showing age 0.
I have put amendments through to the GRO at the bottom of the results page "report it to the GRO" though I am sure they are aware of this.
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Has anyone found any errors yet? I have found death of Mary Ann Eltham Q4 1837 Birmingham aged 13 years, but in reality she was 13 months when she died
Yes my great great grandad's surname (b 1841, 2 weeks after census day!),which is Rogers,is down as Rogirs.
When I checked to find more siblings of course he didn't come up.
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LOL Carol, - I think I did crack up looking for him!!
I've been looking for about 40yrs now, but can still only find him on the 1901 and 1911 Censuses...
Ancestry says he's Buried at St Andrew's Kingsbury, - but they deny all knowledge of him.
Romilly ::)
No luck with this new GRO info yet then?
There's still too many with the same name:-( Problem is it's all very common names, - William James Wilson, Born (Aprox) 1860/'61.
On the 1901 and 1911 he gives his place of birth as 'Manchester, Lancs'. If I put that into the new Search it comes up with NIL results, and so there must be something wrong with the info he gave...
And if I don't put 'Manchester' in the Reg box, it comes up with 21 results... I have previously ordered some of these Certs, and none of them fit with the info he gave on his Marriage Cert:-(
Why do some people have to be so tricky?
Romilly ???
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What does it mean when one of the children has a different mother's maiden name than the others??
Children proven by censuses and baptisms to belong to the correct parents but each child has Hearn as the mother's maiden name then one is Graves? And another family, all children have Glover as the mother's maiden name and one is Turrell? Weird.
Another possibility is that the mother has, for some reason, used both names at different times.
I've got someone who was born and baptised with the surname Wood. But when she married she used the name Ellis, which was her mother's maiden name, and her father is shown as John Ellis when he should be John Wood. I'd assumed that either they were trying to cover their tracks (both were under 21 and perhaps a parent didn't approve), or that there was a misunderstanding somewhere.
However, searching through the registrations of her children, several are registered with mmn Ellis and others as Wood. So I conclude that she did use the surname Ellis at some stage before marriage. Why, who knows. There's no illegitimacy or step-parents involved, and there is no doubt that I have the right family.
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In the very last days of the old Family Records Centre I spent hours grabbing as much data as I could from the indexes - having some experience of public sector IT projects I was alarmed at promises we would be able to access improved data online through Dove.
We didn't have to wait long did we ;D
What would we (and the GRO) have done without FreeBMD?
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As far as the maiden names shown on entries are concerned it is worth remembering that birth registers don't actually have a space for the maiden name until quite recently.
The maiden name shown on the index is assumed from the the "formerly" name shown for most married women - however, these aren't always correct or shown correctly, especially when there has been more than one marriage.
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also found a 2 month old indexed as 2 years, but can't prove that as its before age was stated on standard index and agree records with no mother's maiden name = illegitimate, for those known to be from Warwickshire parish register images.
future price, who knows but expect they won't change quickly as the £6 & £8 prices are stipulated in the S.I. approved by Parliament so presumably any amendment to that would also have to pass through the Houses. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/980/pdfs/uksi_20160980_en.pdf
With the Irish Government releasing pdf images of their BMD with 100/75/50 year cut-off online for FREE only 6 weeks ago one can only hope (the GRO format being of course set up by pre-partition by HM Government so essentially exactly the same as England & Wales). What I find useful there is get not just the scanned line from the book as currently pasted into paper GRO copies but the whole page of the Register Book. Having additional entries & names makes deciphering the hand-writing of place names etc easier, can see how the Register formed his letters.
For example in the attached image the birth place is Union Street, Lurgan. However, what one also sees is the 2 stage verification of the Master GRO book's transcriptions (held in Dublin) from the Local Register entry books. Signed as true copy by 2 people and one sometimes sees errors circled and corrections annotated. As I had previously paid for some BMD from GRONI for Belfast (from the Local books) I was able to compare myself and confirm that signatures on marriages for Witnesses and bride & groom where the surname differed in spelling from the minister's entry above were indeed duplicated and X mark if there was one & no comment if it was signed.
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I am thinking of buying another sub to SEAX Essex ancestors as I seem to have found a child of my 3xgreat grandfather by his second wife. Until yesterday I never thought they had any children. Ellen Stock, mmn Letch, in 1854. John Stock wed Rebecca Letch in 1850. May see if I can find a baptism as I have an idea where they were living in 1854 as his sons by his first wife wed in Hockley.
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It seems the search method is a bit pedantic - for example searching including a volume number requires the volume number to be in the correct format to get any results - e.g. using '4A' gives the response "No Matching Results Found". The 'correct' format is "04A".
Using a wildcard (e.g. "04*") gives the angry red response "Invalid Volume Number Supplied"
But you don't get this warning if you miss the leading zero off - and I've not commonly seen a leading zero used in the volume numbers so it isn't something I'd add by habit.
So beware - a "No Matching Results Found" may just be that you need to add a leading zero to the volume number
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Just a quick word of advice, the index on this says 14years, when she died at 14 months
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Yes my great great grandad's surname (b 1841, 2 weeks after census day!),which is Rogers,is down as Rogirs.
Would only know for sure if you already have the paper copy, as equally well the transcription could be factually correct and the Register wrote it the incorrect way back in 1841.
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Thanks for posting this pstainthorp, it has been really useful already and will keep me very busy for some time ;D.
I have found and reported an error, my great grandmother is indexed a Luzzie, she was actually Lizzie. Obviously a typo.
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I have got the odd "Fatal Error" when searching for Coombs deaths in Clerkenwell district 1850-1855.
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I've finally tracked down the correct entry for my 3x great grandmother Mary Ann Smith thanks to this. Also discovered that she had three more brothers (two who were twins) that died shortly after birth.
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Would only know for sure if you already have the paper copy, as equally well the transcription could be factually correct and the Register wrote it the incorrect way back in 1841.
Yes I've had the original cert for over 20 years now and the GRO index is attached and clearly shows the surname as Rogers,as are all the rest on that page.He's the Marylebone one.
Carol
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Another possibility is that the mother has, for some reason, used both names at different times.
I've got someone who was born and baptised with the surname Wood. But when she married she used the name Ellis, which was her mother's maiden name, and her father is shown as John Ellis when he should be John Wood. I'd assumed that either they were trying to cover their tracks (both were under 21 and perhaps a parent didn't approve), or that there was a misunderstanding somewhere.
However, searching through the registrations of her children, several are registered with mmn Ellis and others as Wood. So I conclude that she did use the surname Ellis at some stage before marriage. Why, who knows. There's no illegitimacy or step-parents involved, and there is no doubt that I have the right family.
Good point Sloe Gin, thanks for sharing :)
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I didn't quite get the gist of it at first but now I can definitely see the benefits - thank you GRO.
Just think I might at long last find the right death for my missing George :D
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I've written a script to add some additional functionality to the search form which some of you may find of use. It allows quick toggling of the gender and quick backwards and forwards navigation through years.
The script uses capability built into most browsers which allows user scripts to run on any website. You'll need to first install a script manager like Greasemonkey (for Firefox desktop) or Tampermonkey (for Firefox, Chrome, Safari, Opera) and then install my script from the GreasyFork script repository. I've put some notes and a screenshot on the GreasyFork page.
Obviously being a new user here some of you will be (rightly) wary about installing random extensions and scripts but hopefully there are other RootsChat users who are familiar with user scripts and javascript and can assure others there's nothing untoward in it.
GRO Index Search Helper
https://greasyfork.org/en/scripts/24590-gro-index-search-helper
Greasemonkey
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/addon/greasemonkey/?src=ss
Tampermonkey
https://tampermonkey.net/
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well - that is what the email I had from Lost Cousins told me, but I can't find it on the GRO site. It is meant to contain mother's maiden name on all births not just from 1911.
Lost Cousins also says:
'The new indexes include births from 1837 to 1915 (ie more than 100 years old), and deaths from 1837 to 1957''
can anyone find the link to the page for me please?
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There is a long thread here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=758727.msg6091658#msg6091658
Go to the log in page. https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp Once you've logged in you can search to your hearts content (many of us having been doing so much of the day) :)
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And they will send you a validation link which you will need to click on within 24 hours or you will have to start your registration again.
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cuffie
Cheers, indeed speeds things up, less mouse clicking
Don't know how others are finding it but if I use Exact for surname get quick results but if change to Phonetic the time wheel goes round & round and often times out with error. Seems quicker to try surname variations manually yourself & change as seen in the standard indexes (presuming you know it)
I like the fact it gives second & third fornames in full when these are just initials in the old indexes
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Yes but you are missing the point of the new index, it has been compiled to allow the purchase of uncertified copies of register entries.
There will be a limited trial of this service (uncertified copies of register entries) from the 9th of this month for three weeks or 45000 copies whichever comes first.
I feel the 45000 copies will be sold very quickly.
The service will then stop for assessment and further trials will be carried out at later dates or if everything has gone smoothly (some chance) it will go live.
Cheers
Guy
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thank you for your help, I have just got the validation code and already found one missing child in a family. I am sure the 45000 copies will sell quickly and I hope some will be to me!
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Who would have thought there'd be at least 250 Florence Smiths for each search in births from 1876 to 1880. And not one of them in any search had the MMS I was looking for :( I guess it just gives 250 per search, even though there's probably more than that, and it'll give the same ones each time you search that year?
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Stuart
Yes the help file says 250 is maximum. But you could narrow it down manually by using ±1 year rather than ±2 or each year on its own. Will take longer but should get result, maybe you did that already, in which case...
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Well I commend those who did look at all the birth registers prior to 1911 and noted down MMN, and the deaths before 1866.
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The phonetic searches (metaphone) are quite slow for me, often timing out. I suspect they're calculating the keys for the names in the DB on the fly. Or possibly they are storing the keys in the DB but they're badly indexed. That's pure speculation though. Hopefully they can resolve it as it's not much use at the moment.
Looking at their code they appear to have handling in place for wildcard searches, using underscores, but they haven't enabled the option in the UI. Hopefully they'll enable that soon.
Curiously, the code also has some commented out options for searching marriages & civil registrations and overseas births, marriages, deaths & civil registrations. It may be too soon to speculate but it looks promising...
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reading some earlier posts here & elsewhere the initial Parliamentiary proposal was to change the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953 to permit digital images to be generated, this bill was requested withdrawn so it could include marriages. Perhaps they made a start on Births & Deaths but instructed the Software Developers to include the code for Marriages too, unfortunately the funding then ran out for the project.
18 Nov 2014 "but the clause seeks to amend only the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953, which does not provide for the issuing of marriage certificates. We would expect any amendment that provides for a change to the issuing of marriage certificates to be included in the separate marriage legislation, which is the Marriage Act 1949....the clause as currently drafted fails overall to achieve the intended aim of opening up as wide a range of records as possible to greater public access...On that basis, I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201415/ldhansrd/text/141118-gc0001.htm#14111860000379
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Another option on the no MMN question. I have had a couple with no MMN, where the mother was in the workhouse infirmary for the birth. So possibly (without buying the cert) the birth was registered by a workhouse official who didn't know the MMN.
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Also, meant to ask. I have seen three now where after the usual volume and page details, it says "Occasional Copy: A"
Any idea what that means?
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Also, meant to ask. I have seen three now where after the usual volume and page details, it says "Occasional Copy: A"
All I can think of is from recent searches of the Irish GRO books sometimes there were additional pages (more often marriages when a minister sent his churches quarterly batch in late). There when do a search & find a name it normally offers one complete pdf page, but sometimes there are 2. Correction of a mistake in the copy where they had mixed two entry lines from the original into one in the Master Transcript so they rewrote part of the page or maybe a late birth registration. Sometimes see these late registrations if open the FBMD or Ancestry images and see an asterix in the typewritten alphabetical list and an hand written annotatation at the bottom. FBMD has a lightning symbol to indicate them I think. Others may have a more definite answer.
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/late-entry-help.html
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Project DoVE was one part of a three part plan.
The first part project DoVE (Digitisation of Vital Events), was to digitise the GRO's records of birth, marriage and death. This ran for three years and ended in 2008 when the contractor pulled out.
By that time only the birth records up to 1934 and death records up to 1957 had been scanned.
See http://www.rootschat.com/links/01isx/
The second part EAGLE (Electronic Access to GRO Legacy Events) is what the GRO use to supply certificates to the general public.
The third part was MAGPIE (MultiAccess to GRO Public Index of Events), was intended to make the indexes available to the public via a website the new index.
In addition a Digitisation and Indexing project to complete the digitisation of BMD records plus index and update the ordering process was later started
This was suspended in 2010.
Estimates (as of August 2012) for the completion of the digitisation project were £25-30 million.
Cheers
Guy
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I have found an instance of an Amelia listed as a Male so if you are using a first name in your search it is worth searching under both sexes
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Thanks to this I've found/confirmed a few details on missing children.
Even better it looks like I've found the birth record of one of my great x 3 grandfathers. William Baines born about 1854 in North Clifton, Nottinghamshire (Newark RD) appears to have been recorded as William Bean. There were 3 William Baines also born in Newark RD between 1854 and 1856. In the past I had ordered certificates with the fathers name so they would only post them out if correct. Always wondered if they really were wrong, mothers maiden name shows they were.
Unfortunately I still can't find the birth of another great x 3 grandparent, Sarah Dunckley (or Dunkley, Dunklin etc) born about 1858 in Bilston, Staffordshire (should be Wolverhampton RD). Mothers maiden name was Lockley. Parents Richard and Mary married December 1858 so she may have been registered as Lockley, but all the births of Sarah Lockley's have a mothers maiden name. Any ideas?
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Hopefully cuffie81 is correct and wildcard searches will be enabled in the future. Most of the births I'm looking for have surnames which change spelling a lot, and I prefer using wildcards than the usual soundex options.
I guess they're testing the water and not allowing searches which would slow the site down too much - same reason they only allow +/- 2 years maybe?
Apart from that, I'm really pleased with how the search page works.
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Project DoVE was one part of a three part plan.
The first part project DoVE (Digitisation of Vital Events), was to digitise the GRO's records of birth, marriage and death. This ran for three years and ended in 2008 when the contractor pulled out.
By that time only the birth records up to 1934 and death records up to 1957 had been scanned.
See http://www.rootschat.com/links/01isx/
The second part EAGLE (Electronic Access to GRO Legacy Events) is what the GRO use to supply certificates to the general public.
The third part was MAGPIE (MultiAccess to GRO Public Index of Events), was intended to make the indexes available to the public via a website the new index.
In addition a Digitisation and Indexing project to complete the digitisation of BMD records plus index and update the ordering process was later started
This was suspended in 2010.
Estimates (as of August 2012) for the completion of the digitisation project were £25-30 million.
Cheers
Guy
Interesting Guy. I assume that Project CROW ( cant read or write) will explain errors? ;)
:D
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What I am finding very interesting is that when I look for relatives from the mid 1800s by just putting in year and no further information is just how regional some surnames are, and they do seem to have a fairly high concentration in the areas these ancestors were from.
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Having spent time this morning reading Guy's posts about the Birds projects on here dating back to 2007 he must be glad to finally see something materialise. We have been working through trees and have come across transcription spelling errors and infant deaths in months recorded as years and have submitted feedback. Unless they re-read evey death image looking for mo rather than yr and re-enter our feedback will be the only way of isolating these.
I suspect the reality is that such corrections are unlikely to be utilised in the near future. For the Irish census similar feedback occurred for years and it was only recently that the following was added to their help page
Since the Online Census went live, the National Archives has received thousands of emails detailing error corrections through our error feedback facility. Until recently, we had no staff to undertake the task of verifying these suggested corrections, and entering them in the database. Over the last year, however, we have been able to make a start on this task, and have validated and corrected 12,600 submissions. We have now re-indexed the site to incorporate these corrections.
We hope, subject to resource constraints, to continue this important work, and we thank our users for their patience in waiting a considerable length of time to see their very useful corrections implemented.
Despite these hinderences we have managed to find said registrations (admittedly only with external knowledge & without that one would go looking fruitlessly for a 13 year old's baptism rather than a 13 month). However, as the system is under trial perhaps feedback on improvements to the Search functions are more likely to see results this year or next. It underwent Beta testing as outlined here http://lostcousins.com/newsletters2/specialnov16news.htm#GROindexlaunch which includes the line "Also, if an infant died at the age of (say) 9 days, 9 weeks, or 9 months the age at death may have been recorded as 9 years".
I find Cuffie's improvements to the Search page result in quicker searching - but he is better to describe & feed that back than me a mere user.
I find just using Surname + Exact & inputing a known registration district quick but if I change to Phonetic or Soundex more often than not I time out with error and once it has started have to wait minutes till it has finished, or give up & close the window & log in again, for me that definitely needs fixed/improved in the programming and will feed that back to them.
So it has got database errors but living with them for now what needs improved and fedback not just on here but to the GRO?
Perhaps FFHS SOG etc might be able to summarise such comments in a document which would be more friendly to them than hundreds of individual comments that they need to read, some might say doing some of their work for them.
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For example ability to search by County would be useful as is possible on FreeBMD rather than just District, although likely more complicated than at first seems as eg Stratford upon Avon District includes parishes in Warwickshire, Worcestershire & Gloucestershire
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Crikey - I can't believe that so many are so negative about something that, to me personally, is wonderful. :-\ You just have to do a bit of homework first :o :)
I've already short-listed my birth registrations, and used this new facility to confirm or deny the mother. Deaths I haven't used to any great extent, but the one or two where I was unsure of ages, this search has proved invaluable, if only by elimination.
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Crikey - I can't believe that so many are so negative about something that, to me personally, is wonderful. :-\ You just have to do a bit of homework first :o :)
I've already short-listed my birth registrations, and used this new facility to confirm or deny the mother. Deaths I haven't used to any great extent, but the one or two where I was unsure of ages, this search has proved invaluable, if only by elimination.
My sentiments exactly BumbleB.
I am using Free BMD to narrow it down first.
Give them time,they only launched it on Friday ::)
Carol
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Crikey - I can't believe that so many are so negative about something that, to me personally, is wonderful. :-\ You just have to do a bit of homework first :o :)
I've already short-listed my birth registrations, and used this new facility to confirm or deny the mother. Deaths I haven't used to any great extent, but the one or two where I was unsure of ages, this search has proved invaluable, if only by elimination.
I agree BumbleB - I've only been using it a couple of days and already have found information I could never have got, other than spending money on possible certificates. A great FREE resource.
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Bumble
Similarly I have deleted a half dozen Birth registration citations so far and confirmed the correct ones using MMS eg Annie on all baptism census marriage & death but birth was registered as Mary. I had added a ? on the previously assigned GRO Annie birth as was in the 'wrong' District.
So I am very gratefull but if things can be tweaked given likely budget constraints to make research & life easier I like to see that, it may be possible at this stage. Intention in my post was to be realistic not negative, in fact I don't think anyone has been. I welcome it.
John
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I agree with John. I don't think there have been many negative comments, and those that have are generally constructive in their criticism. Feedback on what doesn't work well not only helps the GRO (if they see it), it also helps people on Rootschat who may be having similar difficulties.
For example, I've just been looking for this record from FreeBMD and confirmed from the original GRO index:
Births Dec 1840 Levett Elizabeth Sarah Stow 12 378
On the GRO site, an exact search on 'Levett' '1840' 'Dec' & '12' gives no results.
Changing to "Phonetically sounding variations" gives 250+ results on 5 pages, none of which match the FreeBMD result.
Changing to "Similar sounding variations" gives 19 results, one of which is a "LOVETT", which appears to match the FreeBMD result.
It took me about 20 searches to get this answer. Given that many people currently searching will already have Year, Q, Volume, Page (or can quickly get it from FreeBMD) the demand on the website could be reduced by allowing a search with just these 4 details, rather than requiring a surname and gender.
So whilst I think having the new data on a new free site is great, I do feel it isn't unreasonable to constructively comment that the objective of managing load on the site could be better achieved by removing the current 'required' fields if alternative 'known' data is supplied. This would be a better approach than users having to use the name 'variations' options, which others have commented are far slower (i.e. more demanding).
Just trying to be constructive, and suggesting other Rootschatters shouldn't give up if they get the "No Matching Results Found", you just have to adopt different approaches to those we've learnt on other sites.
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This is a personal thing, but I always use numbered quarters (Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4).
I find it quite difficult to process M Quarter, J Quarter, S Quarter and D Quarter.
I really have to think about it. I wonder why they use that format.
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Well the new indexes giving mmn before 1911 forced me to buy another sub for SEAX and I did confirm that John Stock and Rebecca nee Letch did have 2 children, one in 1851 and one in 1854. The first one was born in South Ockendon, was baptised there and died as a baby. Until then I never knew John and Rebecca ever had any children, I thought all his kids were fro his first wife. I need to find out whatever happened to the second Ellen Stock born 1854.
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This is a personal thing, but I always use numbered quarters (Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4).
I find it quite difficult to process M Quarter, J Quarter, S Quarter and D Quarter.
I really have to think about it. I wonder why they use that format.
Possibly because that was the format from the inception of Civil Registration in 1837 :-\
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This is a personal thing, but I always use numbered quarters (Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4).
I find it quite difficult to process M Quarter, J Quarter, S Quarter and D Quarter.
I really have to think about it. I wonder why they use that format.
Probably to avoid confusion?
The tax year starts in April, so Q1 is April to June ::)
March quarter means exactly what it says - the quarter ending in March. ;D
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Probably to avoid confusion?
The tax year starts in April, so Q1 is April to June ::)
March quarter means exactly what it says - the quarter ending in March. ;D
It is not at all clear to anyone unused to the system. It could mean the quarter beginning in March. Or May. The J could be for June or July. At least FreeBMD uses the fuller abbreviations Mar, Jun, Sep and Dec, which makes it a little easier.
As for the numbers, my genealogy software uses Q1 for the Jan/Feb/Mar quarter, and so on. The tax year is irrelevant ::)
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Is there a definitive answer as to what a dash "-" means as a result for mother's maiden name?
The GRO document "Index Data Quality & Error Reporting" says "Why is Mother's Maiden Name shown in most, but not all birth indexes? In some cases Mother's Maiden Name was not data captured, and will appear in the online index as a dash. However, where possible, we have enhanced the indexes to include Mothers Maiden Name where it has previously not been provided on the microfiche indexes."
In the context of the document, 'not data captured' seems to mean at the time the digitised records were transcribed, but there are no clues there why the data would not have been captured.
It would be nice to know if the "-" can be interpreted (on the balance of probabilities) as the mother's surname being the same as the childs (i.e. probably an unmarried mother) rather than meaning something else like the entry was unreadable.
However, I'm expecting the answer to be that "-" simply means the name was not data captured for any of a number of reasons :'(
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This is a personal thing, but I always use numbered quarters (Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4).
I find it quite difficult to process M Quarter, J Quarter, S Quarter and D Quarter.
I really have to think about it. I wonder why they use that format.
I remember this being discussed at a meeting with GRO when the system was demonstrated - they did say that the MJSD notation for the quarters is the standard GRO usage, and always has been.
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I remember this being discussed at a meeting with GRO when the system was demonstrated - they did say that the MJSD notation for the quarters is the standard GRO usage, and always has been.
I realise that, but I do think it makes for easy misunderstandings:
For instance, that an individual listed under Births Sep 1924 was born in the month of September rather than in the quarter ending in September.
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I have to say I don't like the notation for the quarters myself, but it is the standard throughout registration so Q1 is always referred to as "the March quarter" etc. - but I often have to pause to work out which that is when I hear it or see it written down as M.
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I like that the GRO has done this. I was interested in this comment
Yes but you are missing the point of the new index, it has been compiled to allow the purchase of uncertified copies of register entries.
There will be a limited trial of this service (uncertified copies of register entries) from the 9th of this month for three weeks or 45000 copies whichever comes first.
does anyone know what the uncertified copies will cost and what they will include i.e. how will they be different from the certified copies.
On the question of different maiden names in a family of 15/16 siblings I have as a maiden name
Garrett 7 times
Gehard 2 times
Gerhard 1 time
Gannett 1 time
Jarrett 1 time
Cracknell 1 time
There are 3 siblings I have not found yet.
I know all the above are the right family and know the reasons for the variation in the maiden names, that is all except the Cracknell one which may turn out to be just badly written and hard to decipher.
If the uncertified copies are not expensive I will try and use it to find the Isabella Dodd mentioned in the footnote to my posts
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£sick squid has been mentioned - dunno exactly, but would think it will be a PDF with same info & layout as current paper version ....
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for the initial trial the cost will be £6 - I believe it it will be a .pdf file showing an image of the (copy) register entry that GRO have - being uncertified for family history research isn't really an issue - it just means it won't be on official paper and might not be acceptable for any legal purposes ( inheritance claims, passport applications etc).
There is to be another trial for uncertified copies from records that haven't yet been digitised (at £8) and an express 3hr service trial which I believe will be £45 (aimed at the legal & heir/hunter type world I expect).
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I hope I haven't come across as too negative, I do really appreciate the GRO making this data available to us. Just to be clear, all my comments as to what search options the GRO offer us, and may offer us, are purely gleaned from looking at the HTML and javascript on the page, so are speculative at best. I'm in no way associated with GRO other than as a user like everyone else here.
Regarding the mother's maiden name they do seem to be using a dash (ie no name) when the child was illegitimate. I'm comparing records with certificates I have. This seems slightly at odds with how it's done post-1911; some consistency would be good.
Regarding the quarter notation, like others, I keep doing a double take to convert it to Q1-Q4. I suspect it's the abbreviation to a single character that's the cause, as personally, I don't have the same issue when using FreeDMB and their 3 character abbreviations. I think I might change my script to 'fix' this.
As for my earlier comments on the phonetic name matching (metaphone), looking again at their HTML it appears they're not using exact matching on the metaphone code but using a level of fuzzy matching (ie 1 code character different). This might explain the performance issue and why the resulting matches are a bit looser than I/we expect. There's also a commented out option for even looser matches (ie 2 characters different), so it looks like they have may been experimenting with more options. An option for exact code matches would be nice.
Has anyone else wondered what this could mean for FreeDMB? As the GRO are building their own database with more detail than FreeBMD could (assuming they're never given access to the data the GRO have), could it affect the number of volunteers and donations FreeBMD can attract? I think it'd be a real shame if FreeBMD were 'relegated' to a secondary source through no fault of their own, considering all the work they've put in over the years.
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From about 1993 I frequented St Catherine's House and then Middleton Street before the ledgers for BMD's moved to Kew so I was used to the quarters , it really doesn't take to much thinking about to be honest
So far I am enjoying the use of this new system, Girl Guide sorted one out for me initially which I had missed for some 20 years, so that got me moving to continue but most I had already, a good system, a good way to spend a cold afternoon
Louisa Maud
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On the question of different maiden names in a family of 15/16 siblings I have as a maiden name
Garrett 7 times
Gehard 2 times
Gerhard 1 time
Gannett 1 time
Jarrett 1 time
Cracknell 1 time
There are 3 siblings I have not found yet.
I know all the above are the right family and know the reasons for the variation in the maiden names, that is all except the Cracknell one which may turn out to be just badly written and hard to decipher.
I'm sure that's it. We must keep in mind that the GRO records are transcriptions of the originals held by the local register office, so there is twice as much scope for mistranscription. We are two steps from the original bad handwriting ;D
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I may be wrong, but I don't think this will make any difference to FreeBMD, in fact it may even make it more useful than ever. In order to search the GRO you need to know the Registration District and a possible year. It's much easier to search on FreeBMD to cover a wide range of Districts - by county for instance - and a wider range of years.
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I may be wrong, but I don't think this will make any difference to FreeBMD, in fact it may even make it more useful than ever. In order to search the GRO you need to know the Registration District and a possible year. It's much easier to search on FreeBMD to cover a wide range of Districts - by county for instance - and a wider range of years.
;D
I agree with BumbleB
Freebmd is also useful for its postems, we just need to keep entering the details from our certificates there ;D ???
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I may be wrong, but I don't think this will make any difference to FreeBMD, in fact it may even make it more useful than ever. In order to search the GRO you need to know the Registration District and a possible year. It's much easier to search on FreeBMD to cover a wide range of Districts - by county for instance - and a wider range of years.
;D
I agree with BumbleB
Freebmd is also useful for its postems, we just need to keep entering the details from our certificates there ;D ???
But looking ahead, if the GRO add additional search options (eg searching by county(ies), multiple districts), effectively duplicating FreeBMD functionality, how many of us would switch to using the GRO as our first port of call.
As for FreeBMD's postems, yes they are useful but have you you actually ever find any for people you've searched for? I know I haven't. I can't criticise others for not uploading details as I haven't done any myself. I did look at it once but it was quite restrictive and to include all details you're forced into abbreviating heavily and/or posting multiple entries. That said, it could be one option for FreeBMD to really differentiate itself from the GRO DB in future but that'd be moving away from it's original intention.
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We'll face that when/if it happens :)
In the meantime I'll continue using FreeBMD as my first port of call, and also continue transcribing for them.
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FreeBMD has loads of plus points - e.g. wildcard searches and larger year ranges, which aren't available at the GRO right now.
And of course it covers a larger range of years.
Personally, I like seeing births, marriages and deaths all on the same page, so it's easy to cross-reference them - so I anticipate I'll still be using FreeBMD as much as ever.
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The maiden name makes all the difference, narrowed down the birth of my gt grandad John Davies from 13 possibilities to 2, time to throw money after certificates!
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Freebmd is also useful for its postems, we just need to keep entering the details from our certificates there ;D ???
As for FreeBMD's postems, yes they are useful but have you you actually ever find any for people you've searched for? I know I haven't. I can't criticise others for not uploading details as I haven't done any myself. I did look at it once but it was quite restrictive and to include all details you're forced into abbreviating heavily and/or posting multiple entries.
I'm a great believer in postems.
You don't have to include all the details - just enough to help people decide whether a cert is worth buying . . so
Birth - just give parents and road name/area
Marriages - just give fathers names. . etc
a short POSTEM is better than NO postem!
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I'm a great believer in postems.
You don't have to include all the details - just enough to help people decide whether a cert is worth buying . . so
Birth - just give parents and road name/area
Marriages - just give fathers names. . etc
a short POSTEM is better than NO postem!
Even a name of who married whom is useful in the early days where there are 10 names on the same page.All of the ladies with the same christian name !
I sometimes put John Smith (father Samuel) married Mary Jones (father George) better than nowt ;-)
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Chuffie I agree I'd like to see those incorporated by the GRO, County search, Mothers maiden surname search and District/Vol/page search. As the database has taken years to get this far it is unlikely to change rappidly. However as the data is stored search improvements should be possible generating additional functionality to the present and indeed similar facilities as FreeBMD. Yes at the moment a two stage approach needs to be utilised but need that always be the case? That was the question I asked earlier. Free BMD will continue to be useful as it utilises a completely different index, the new GRO being compiled from scratch so a combined approach will assist with spelling and age errors.
I would prefer to be able to utilise the GRO as the primary and not the secondary search facility
Nick it may not always be the case but evidence from my certificates also indicate that there is no mother's maiden name recorded if the child is illegitimate just a dash. Factually correct, and if the maiden name were filled in the same as the child's surname then that would mean one they would appear identical to John Smith, Bachelor to Sarah Smith, Spinster marriages. I appreciate there is therefore no way to differentiate between an unmarried woman & an illegible/missing surname.
In terms of cost these have been discussed earlier in the thread and are documented in the S.I. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/980/pdfs/uksi_20160980_en.pdf
As Anthony explains the current paper certificate will remain the legal proof of a birth, marriage or death to produce to a court etc and the layout is protected by Crown Copyright with the logo. Reproduction of the entire certificate is currently permissable by law https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/information-management/reproduction-of-birth-death-marriage-certificates.pdf In Ireland an uncertified copy is the entire page of the GRO book scanned and downloadable as a pdf and in Northern Ireland just the line for the individual is displayed on your computer screen at a much reduced cost. Whether the former or the latter is followed the image you get is identical to that currently received in the middle of a £9.25 Certified copy.
I tend to do BMD searching primarilly in Ancestry and on a failure then FreeBMD, I find the slightly different facilities on search terms and wildcards useful. I upload & transcribe all my certs to my public tree, I was not aware of Postems till now.
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Chuffie I agree I'd like to see those incorporated by the GRO, County search, Mothers maiden surname search and District/Vol/page search. As the database has taken years to get this far it is unlikely to change rappidly. However as the data is stored search improvements should be possible generating additional functionality to the present and indeed similar facilities as FreeBMD. Yes at the moment a two stage approach needs to be utilised but need that always be the case? That was the question I asked earlier. Free BMD will continue to be useful as it utilises a completely different index, the new GRO being compiled from scratch so a combined approach will assist with spelling and age errors.
Adding more search options shouldn't really require any changes to the database, other than maybe adding some pertinent indexes. Even supporting county searches should be fairly simple and just require mappings between districts and counties; the information must exist as FreeBMD have it listed on their site. Anyway, it'll be interesting to see if and how the GRO evolve the searches over the coming months.
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/county-map.html
As for 2 databases, I can't help thinking it's a missed opportunity. If the GRO worked with FreeBMD to create one more complete database with fewer errors and omissions it'd benefit everyone. The cynic in me thinks the GRO may want their own DB so they can commercialise it at some point.
@BumbleB, sorry for being so negative.
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Chuffie
We are both saying all the info is in the database already.
If your interested in terms of records included these are covered Guy Etchells (who posted earlier) here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=721399.msg5653348#msg5653348 and this is the document he quotes https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/118664/23788-civil-registration.pdf.
The S.I. stipulates that access to pdf images is made via the public website known as www.gov.uk and I am reasonably confident that the index was always guarenteed to be free so I think commercialising would be hard without further passing through Parliament etc.
Had not come across the FBMD District/County listing despite using the site often, not looked I guess, but does not surprise me, had always checked localities using UKBMD. At the risk of branching off topic I asked Ancestry on their public Facebook only a 6 weeks ago why they could not reference UKBMD to correct the Counties in their records; they made no comment.
"one thing that I find frustrating (but is so common have long time accepted as just the way things are) is that far too many of the Ancestry UK BMD's are allocated to the wrong place so for example have to use the keyword Warwick rather than location 'Warwick, Warwickshire' to bring up the data. Warwick Registration district is not in Yorkshire and Oxford & Banbury are not in 'Hampshire, Buckinghamshire, Isle of Wight'. Whilst some places may share common names there is no excuse for such frequent poor labelling/allocation. It might take a bit of programming time but a better County allocaton could be pulled up from the UKBMD list of Registration Districts"
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For a long time I had assumed that the birth of one of my gt-gt-aunts had not been registered in 1845, tho all her siblings were. Thanks to the MMNs recorded here, I find that she was registered (and correctly indexed by GRO) but she had been incorrectly entered in the 1845 index as Parr. This was confirmed by checking the original script on FreeBMD. No doubt I shall find other revelations.
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Well, after having a full weekend at it now, it's great.
Yes, there are currently shortcomings with the searching, but I am quite happy to take a face value that things are in the pipeline. And even in it's current state, it has been extremely useful. So far I have confirmed a good number of those children shown as dead on the 1911, that had died between censuses. Also found a few that I had no idea about who did the same, filling in some of those suspicious-looking long gaps between known children. I have a couple of certs on the way for some of the more interesting ones.
And I've barely scratched the surface yet. This will keep me busy for a while.
Well done GRO!
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@BumbleB There was nothing negative said earlier. The suggestions you and others made on improving the search weren't negative (and should've been obvious thoughts to anyone who has used the search) and it was silly for someone to call it that when clearly everyone posting in this thread recognises how fantastic this is.
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There is to be another trial for uncertified copies from records that haven't yet been digitised (at £8) and an express 3hr service trial which I believe will be £45 (aimed at the legal & heir/hunter type world I expect).
Yes, I was not involved with the beta testing but would be very disappointed if that was the case.
There is no reason why the uncertified copy could not be an automatic instant service such as the census image service for third party providers.
Is there any possibility of the 3 hour service being for the Special Delivery and DHL for priority orders containing up to 5 certificates?
But looking ahead, if the GRO add additional search options (eg searching by county(ies), multiple districts), effectively duplicating FreeBMD functionality, how many of us would switch to using the GRO as our first port of call.
I am assuming this “new” index was commissioned for internal GRO use during the period when MAGPIE (MultiAccess to GRO Public Index of Events) or more probably the later Digitisation and Indexing project was running prior to 2012.
It is possible that after the trial period the index could be expanded to include other facilities.
FreeBMD has loads of plus points - e.g. wildcard searches and larger year ranges, which aren't available at the GRO right now.
And of course it covers a larger range of years.
Personally, I like seeing births, marriages and deaths all on the same page, so it's easy to cross-reference them - so I anticipate I'll still be using FreeBMD as much as ever.
If I am correct and the internal GRO (MAGPIE) index has been brought out to service the uncertified copy service that explains some of your points.
For instance the range of years would be limited to what is available in digital format.
I should also add that later (recent) BMDs i.e. those that were produced digitally from the start will be available on the index but not available to order as an uncertified copy.
Cheers
Guy
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After a few successes (see above, this page) I now suspect there are gaps in the data. I cannot retrieve two entries for Spouncer (pretty rare, that one) for 1877 or 1879, which I know are on the printed index, and are correctly transcribed on FreeBMD. Some Spouncers in the early 1870s are present however.
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After a few successes (see above, this page) I now suspect there are gaps in the data. I cannot retrieve two entries for Spouncer (pretty rare, that one) for 1877 or 1879, which I know are on the printed index, and are correctly transcribed on FreeBMD. Some Spouncers in the early 1870s are present however.
Is this William Alfred 1877
SPOONER, WILLIAM ALFRED mmn YOUNG
GRO Reference: 1877 S Quarter in GAINSBOROUGH Volume 07A Page 728
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I've come up with similar 'missing' entries Andrew, I suspect that they have been transcribed differently to the original indexes (e.g. as per FreeBMD).
Since 'Surname' is a compulsory search term and the only option available is to use variant spellings, if the transcription is significantly different (like a different first letter) then it seems the GRO search won't show the record at all.
I guess you've tried various (dramatically) different ways of spelling Spouncer and still come up with nothing?
That's why I posted yesterday about how the load on the GRO site might be reduced if they allowed searches using Year, Quarter, Volume, Page - as the number of results returned by that search will be limited, and people like you and me would then be able to see what had happened to our 'missing' records.
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After a few successes (see above, this page) I now suspect there are gaps in the data. I cannot retrieve two entries for Spouncer (pretty rare, that one) for 1877 or 1879, which I know are on the printed index, and are correctly transcribed on FreeBMD. Some Spouncers in the early 1870s are present however.
1879
SPONNEN, STANLEY YOUNG mmn YOUNG
GRO Reference: 1879 M Quarter in GAINSBOROUGH Volume 07A Page 763
For this one I searched
Surname Spounce (no 'r' on end) Phonetically similar
MMN Young
Male
1879
Gainsborough
It still comes up without mmn Young
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When you think these records go back to 1837 when the writing was so poor I am not surprised that the people sorting this lot out must have a real headache, one I have is MMN Cork, Cook or Cock, married before 1837 which doesn't help, In the main I am happy, well done GRO.
LOUISA MAUD
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for the initial trial the cost will be £6 - I believe it it will be a .pdf file showing an image of the (copy) register entry that GRO have - being uncertified for family history research isn't really an issue - it just means it won't be on official paper and might not be acceptable for any legal purposes ( inheritance claims, passport applications etc).
At the risk of sounding ungrateful and grouchy, I think that is still too expensive. There are so many certs I would order, not because I need them to confirm anything important, but out of sheer curiosity. At £6 I will still have to pick and choose carefully.
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It's great to see so many RootsChatters benefitting from the new service, but I'm still awaiting my Verification Code :'(
Has anybody else had problems? I have been registered with GRO for some time and my sign-in was accepted but no Verification Code arrived despite several requests last evening and this morning. I even re-registered with a different email address this morning. They said the Verification Code had been sent each time I tried but no sign of it even in the 'spam' folder.
Mike.
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I've had a few instances lately where promised emails didn't arrive?
The time during the summer, I am on very good terms with the technical person involved.
He said there were certification problems with some domain names?
GMX.com, Blueyonder.co.uk and ntlworld.com were the 3 he came up with.
Certainly my email address (on GMX) has caused problems within the last couple of weeks.
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Sloe
Cost is higher than Scotland, Ireland and Northern Ireland but I guess as the cost to get to 2012 was over £8 million for Birth records 1837 to 1934 & Death records 1837 to 1957 and estimated cost to complete digitisation of remaining records and marriages was £25-30m [from Reply#179's link] so likely it is being passed on. We can only hope some revenue will indeed be set aside for marriages.
Perhaps I previously assummed incorrectly that they would not have manpower for corrections as on re-reading the help info "All error reports will be investigated and where an error is found, we will update the Index to reflect the correct information. Updates to the indexes will be made on a weekly basis."
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It's great to see so many RootsChatters benefitting from the new service, but I'm still awaiting my Verification Code :'(
Has anybody else had problems? I have been registered with GRO for some time and my sign-in was accepted but no Verification Code arrived despite several requests last evening and this morning. I even re-registered with a different email address this morning. They said the Verification Code had been sent each time I tried but no sign of it even in the 'spam' folder.
Mike.
I am having the same problem. I have tried two emails and still nothing.
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My 3xgreat gran was born c1851-1853 in Terling. Isabella Stokes. She was one birth which appears not to have been registered. I even looked at all births in the Witham district 1850-1855 on FreeBMD and Ancestry and found no likely or even remotely likely entries. If I type into the new GRO feature with a first name variant and what should be the mmn (Britton) the site goes slow or crashes.
The new GRO feature may be a help if you still live in the smallest hope an ancestor birth was registered but grossly mistranscribed. Maybe I should try the local registrar for the Witham district.
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I'm having no luck with getting a verification code either - using my old login and also a new registration with a different email address.
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Thanks snowyw and Hinso, good to know it's not just me. Guess we'll just have to be patient.
Mike.
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I would imagine online organisations that use secondary login or back up questions. ie " Mothers maiden name" will now have to have a rethink on their security questions" or bring to their attention of dangers that already exists. :-\
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Cost is higher than Scotland, Ireland and Northern Ireland but I guess as the cost to get to 2012 was over £8 million for Birth records 1837 to 1934 & Death records 1837 to 1957 and estimated cost to complete digitisation of remaining records and marriages was £25-30m [from Reply#179's link] so likely it is being passed on. We can only hope some revenue will indeed be set aside for marriages.
Oh yes, but I think in a case like this they would quite possibly raise more money by making them cheaper, as more people will order more. I am far more likely to spend £12 if I would be getting four certs rather than two.
Put another way - I will still hesitate to spend £12 on two certificates. I would not hesitate at all if I was getting four for £12.
The new GRO feature may be a help if you still live in the smallest hope an ancestor birth was registered but grossly mistranscribed. Maybe I should try the local registrar for the Witham district.
Definitely! They have the original documents.
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Just spotted this which explains why some of you haven't had your emails
There are currently delays with the email verification process. We are aware of this and currently working to resolve this issue.
Cheers
Jay
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I do tend to agree, Baroness Scott of Needham Market originally suggested £3 when she was proposing the legislation to permit digital images for Geneological purposes, somehow it doubled in the intervening 2 years. But £6 it is by law it is, take it or leave it - and as I've got paper copies already for all direct line grand, gg ggg parents I wont be rushing to spend the £6 on many of their siblings either. On the other hand if I hadn't I would, as spent the £9.25. I read they estimate the cost of £3 for time printing, sticking in an envelope etc so really they have just deducted that.
I did order more images in Northern Ireland at £2.50 ea for family members but there census records do not exist pre 1901 and the parish records are not online. Had they been £6 I would have ordered less - but likely similar overall total expenditure. Last 2 deaths I got were both wrong.
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Cost is higher than Scotland, Ireland and Northern Ireland but I guess as the cost to get to 2012 was over £8 million for Birth records 1837 to 1934 & Death records 1837 to 1957 and estimated cost to complete digitisation of remaining records and marriages was £25-30m [from Reply#179's link] so likely it is being passed on. We can only hope some revenue will indeed be set aside for marriages.
Oh yes, but I think in a case like this they would quite possibly raise more money by making them cheaper, as more people will order more. I am far more likely to spend £12 if I would be getting four certs rather than two.
Put another way - I will still hesitate to spend £12 on two certificates. I would not hesitate at all if I was getting four for £12.
The new GRO feature may be a help if you still live in the smallest hope an ancestor birth was registered but grossly mistranscribed. Maybe I should try the local registrar for the Witham district.
Definitely! They have the original documents.
Yes, as we know from the book "A Comedy of Errors" about missing entries in the GRO index, entries that can be found in the local relevant record offices. Of course if they do not have anything then it may be the birth was just not registered as it was prior to the 1874 tightening of the rules.
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Re: missing or mistranscribed entries.
I've barely found any errors so far. I've found one with the surname mis-spelled (even though it was correct on FreeBMD), a couple have mother's maiden name as "Brown" when I think it should be "Brawn" (possibly bad handwriting?), and one remains elusive.
With FreeBMD, you can always find a mistranscribed entry if you persist - e.g. with wildcards or by entering a district and quarter but not a surname - and if the transcription was wrong you could submit a correction. It's proving harder with the new GRO indexes, but as I said, not many errors so I'm happy!
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Just spotted this which explains why some of you haven't had your emails
There are currently delays with the email verification process. We are aware of this and currently working to resolve this issue.
Cheers
Jay
Success!!
Just had 9 emails with my Verification Codes . . . ;D
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I've come up with similar 'missing' entries Andrew, I suspect that they have been transcribed differently to the original indexes (e.g. as per FreeBMD).
I guess you've tried various (dramatically) different ways of spelling Spouncer and still come up with nothing?
Nick - no, I didn't try enough variants to find the missing two, as Rosie did. As no wildcards are available, and it takes so much longer to get a 'similar' search, I just moved on as I already had the info. I was just a bit puzzled that the printed index (as used by FreeBMD) got them right - I guess because that was compiled when indexers were more accustomed to reading copperplate.
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I would imagine online organisations that use secondary login or back up questions. ie " Mothers maiden name" will now have to have a rethink on their security questions" or bring to their attention of dangers that already exists. :-\
No reputable organisation should use such imbecilic questions in any security scenario.
It has been know since at least 1970 to my knowledge that (UK) banks were warned that names (including mother's maiden name, pets names, film stars, favorite chocolate bars etc etc. were security risks.
Not only were they security risks they provided a false sense of security for their customers and as a result any (UK) bank relying on such questions for security purposes was 100% liable for any and all losses.
Cheers
Guy
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I would imagine online organisations that use secondary login or back up questions. ie " Mothers maiden name" will now have to have a rethink on their security questions" or bring to their attention of dangers that already exists. :-\
Mother's maiden names have been available online post-1911 anyway, so the new indexes aren't likely to make much difference - only a handful of people whose births are on the new GRO search are still alive today anyway.
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I would imagine online organisations that use secondary login or back up questions. ie " Mothers maiden name" will now have to have a rethink on their security questions" or bring to their attention of dangers that already exists. :-\
No reputable organisation should use such imbecilic questions in any security scenario.
It has been know since at least 1970 to my knowledge that (UK) banks were warned that names (including mother's maiden name, pets names, film stars, favorite chocolate bars etc etc. were security risks.
Not only were they security risks they provided a false sense of security for their customers and as a result any (UK) bank relying on such questions for security purposes was 100% liable for any and all losses.
Cheers
Guy
True, but you wouldn't have to use the real name, you could just choose a random one!
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Re: Possible mistranscriptions and error reporting
I guess we could suggest the GRO save money and reduce the workload of checking and validating user submitted corrections by following the FreeBMD example and asking submitters to verify they have viewed the original record, with a helpful link to the digitised image, before users submit corrections.
I for one would be very happy to always view the GRO digitised images if I thought there might be a transcription error ;D ;D
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I for one would be very happy to always view the GRO digitised images if I thought there might be a transcription error ;D ;D
I think there'll be a few willing volunteers ;D
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My thanks to the OP.......a brilliant tip :)
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Thanks from me too. Not sat down to go through all my queries yet but solved the first three I tried.
Selina
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My thanks to the OP.......a brilliant tip :)
Yup, thankyou OP 8)
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Just found a missing child knew I was missing one from the 1911 census - but she has no name, on either her birth or death (both registered in same quarter) - I'm surprised how upset at am that this little one never had a name
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Look forward to tomorrow when the new GRO PDF files come online although I am prepared for the site to be slow as many will be biting their fingernails to get certs. I did hear the first few thousand will be free. I did read that the trial stars 9th November.
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The Site seems to be down at the moment, - I just tried it.
Romilly.
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The Site seems to be down at the moment, - I just tried it.
Romilly.
Working OK for me Romilly.
Jay
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Just tried again, - and it's fine now! Perhaps down to numbers of people searching?
I can't see a facility on there for saving searches btw, - has anyone else found one?
Romilly.
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There was a message earlier saying the site would be down at lunchtime for changes to be made to the certificate ordering system ;D
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There was a message earlier saying the site would be down at lunchtime for changes to be made to the certificate ordering system ;D
That'll be it then... Are there any obvious changes though? I'm loathe to order at the moment, - in case the price drops dramatically!
Romilly.
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I guess it is to do with the trial of uncertificated pdf copies for £6 which starts tomorrow.
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I guess it is to do with the trial of uncertificated pdf copies for £6 which starts tomorrow.
Thanks for the info Deirdre,
Romilly.
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The new additions are great , ! I can see myself spending a lot of time adding info to my trees !! it also put paid to my suspicions that an ancestor of my husbands was not a granddaughter but a daughter !
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It would be very useful to know the Algorithm used to work out “Similar Sounding Variations”. Then we would know which additional spellings we needed to use to cover all contingencies.
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"Similar Sounding Variations" uses a Soundex algorthm.
"Phonetically Similar Variations" uses a Metaphone algorithm.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soundex
and: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphone
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... it also put paid to my suspicions that an ancestor of my husband's was not a granddaughter but a daughter !
Does it really do that? The original record only shows what a clerk was told to write ...
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I was thinking of buying the birth cert of Ellen Stock in 1854 in Rochford but am happy to wait for the £6 PDF certs to be released.
I have been able to get the maiden name of a wife of an ancestor sibling through the mmn at her kids births 1848-1866 but still no record of a marriage. At least I have his wife's mmn.
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I guess it is to do with the trial of uncertificated pdf copies for £6 which starts tomorrow.
Oh I wish we had a like button. I didn't realise the pdfs were going to materialise that soon :)
Santa's Christmas list is going to be overshadowed lol!
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I have a list ready 😀
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... it also put paid to my suspicions that an ancestor of my husband's was not a granddaughter but a daughter !
Does it really do that? The original record only shows what a clerk was told to write ...
No it doesn't show that , what I meant was that the mothers maiden name was the same as the other childrens from the family , originally I thought that the child was from an older daughter but turns out Mama was almost 47 years old when she gave birth in 1867 ( her first born was in 1839 )
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I have two on my wanted list - they are siblings of my ancestors, and may help shed a little light on their parents.
One of them is a bit of a mystery - Fanny Elizabeth Frazer, born 1837 Evesham, baptised several years later along with her elder siblings. Parents are William and Mary - William was probably dead by 1841 and Mary's maiden name was probably Nind. Yet on the GRO website the mother's maiden name is blank. I'm hoping this is an error, and her birth certificate will confirm Mary's maiden name, and tell me whether William was still alive at this point.
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Does any body know if you get the pdf file the same day as purchased or do you have to wait a week or so like you normally would?
Also when does it go live, would it be after midnight tonight or later in the morning for such as 9am or later
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Does any body know if you get the pdf file the same day as purchased or do you have to wait a week or so like you normally would?
Also when does it go live, would it be after midnight tonight or later in the morning for such as 9am or later
I am hoping it is instantaneously like census images.
I am telling everyone it will be 9 o'clock but between you and me I think it will be midnight as the census was.
Cheers
Guy
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I am telling everyone it will be 9 o'clock but between you and me I think it will be midnight as the census was.
That's good as I'll be in work by 8 so can have a quick look before I go :) And hope they haven't all gone by lunchtime ;D
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Regarding dashes for mother's surname & being illegitimate - just had an odd one out with a dash in the enhanced index for 1915 & a mothers name in the old index: Helen G Bennett, Southwark 1915. A wife on a distant branch, been working through my tree checking for extra births & filling all mms in, but not intending tracing her parents/siblings anyway. Checked it to find what the middle initial was.
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Thanks KGarrad.
Tina Royal.
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Unless I'm mistaken, there seems to be one additional feature that has crept into the new system.
I've had a number of family members who apparently were born or died in a Workhouse. The new GRO search now seems to indictate this in the Registration District search result field. So for eg what was previously shown just as "Barnsley" registration district now shows as "Barnsley Union".
Or am I misreading this? (I'm aware that this doesn't necessarily mean they were Workhouse inmates)
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Hhmm, interesting thought Free.
I have a book called Poor Law Union Records which lists all the places covered by registration districts. For Barnsley there is no mention of Barnsley Union, just Barnsley.
Looking on freebmd gives the same, no specific mention of the Union.
It may well be that the GRO are being specific when a child is born in a workhouse. I guess one way to check would be to check the census record to see where the child is living, especially if the child was born close to a census year.
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Unless I'm mistaken, there seems to be one additional feature that has crept into the new system.
I've had a number of family members who apparently were born or died in a Workhouse. The new GRO search now seems to indictate this in the Registration District search result field. So for eg what was previously shown just as "Barnsley" registration district now shows as "Barnsley Union".
Or am I misreading this? (I'm aware that this doesn't necessarily mean they were Workhouse inmates)
An interesting point, - I've noticed this too...
Looking at the Birth Entry for Ellen Hamilton, Born 1845 Greenwich, - the Entry on the GovUk Site now says 'Greenwich Union'. It just says Greenwich on all of the other Sites. I was puzzling over 'Greenwich Union', and wondered if it was a Registration that included Deptford? Or does it indicate a Workhouse Birth?
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Greenwich/
Romilly :-\
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Hhmm, interesting thought Free.
I have a book called Poor Law Union Records which lists all the places covered by registration districts. For Barnsley there is no mention of Barnsley Union, just Barnsley.
Looking on freebmd gives the same, no specific mention of the Union.
It may well be that the GRO are being specific when a child is born in a workhouse. I guess one way to check would be to check the census record to see where the child is living, especially if the child was born close to a census year.
Here's an example...
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Likewise with this Record:
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
HAMILTON, ELLEN EDMONDS
GRO Reference: 1845 D Quarter in GREENWICH UNION Volume 05 Page 188.
And this is Ellen with Mother Charlotte Hamilton on the 1851 Census, - not in a Workhouse, I don't think?
1851 HO107; Piece: 1586; Folio: 83; Page: 1
Char’t Hamilton 45 Middlesex Green’h ? Pen’r Wife
Ellen 5 Deptford
Romilly.
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Unless I'm mistaken, there seems to be one additional feature that has crept into the new system.
I'm prepared to be proved wrong, but there seem to be more records in a 'Union' than I would have expected. I've found plenty in my wife's ancestors, but never any of them in a workhouse on a census. I would give the word Union another interpretation - I'll have to think what ...
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Unless I'm mistaken, there seems to be one additional feature that has crept into the new system.
I'm prepared to be proved wrong, but there seem to be more records in a 'Union' than I would have expected. I've found plenty in my wife's ancestors, but never any of them in a workhouse on a census. I would give the word Union another interpretation - I'll have to think what ...
As I indicated above, it doesn't mean they were residents. I imagine it was the only available medical facility for some people giving birth or seriously ill.
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Here's another example. In this case I know he was a resident of the Workhouse for a few months before his death.
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Wiki shows this as an explanation of Poor Law Unions. I've just put the first bit on here as it goes on to explain in more detail.
"A poor law union was a geographical territory, and early local government unit, in the United Kingdom and Ireland.
Poor law unions existed in England and Wales from 1834 to 1930 for the administration of poor relief. Prior to the Poor Law Amendment Act 1834 the administration of the English Poor Laws was the responsibility of the vestries of individual parishes, which varied widely in their size, populations, financial resources, rateable values and requirements. From 1834 the parishes were grouped into unions, jointly responsible for the administration of poor relief in their areas and each governed by a board of guardians. A parish large enough to operate independently of a union was known as a poor law parish. Collectively, poor law unions and poor law parishes were known as poor law districts. The grouping of the parishes into unions caused larger centralised workhouses to be built to replace smaller facilities in each parish. Poor law unions were later used as a basis for the delivery of registration from 1837, and sanitation outside urban areas from 1875. Poor law unions were abolished by the Local Government Act 1929, which transferred responsibility for public assistance to county and county borough councils."
So as Andrew suggested maybe need to think of it differently.
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I know one of my ancestors died in Clutton Union Workhouse (they very kindly have put all the deaths online between 1838 and 1927 http://www.highlittletonhistory.org.uk/transcriptions0905/CluttonUnionWorkhouseDeaths1838-1927&Indx.pdf )
When I checked his death on this index following this thread it doesn't say Union after the place
CAVILL, JOSEPH 91
GRO Reference: 1893 D Quarter in CLUTTON Volume 05C Page 414
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Here's another example. In this case I know he was a resident of the Workhouse for a few months before his death.
I have two copies of birth certs for ancestors of mine, one headed Bosmere and Claydon Union (Suffolk, 1844), the other Shepton Mallet Union (Somerset, 1842). Both of them state that the births occurred in the small villages where the families lived. The 4 births in the Somerset family were labelled Union until 1844; all later births (1846-1860) weren't. I don't think this means that the Ag.Labs could suddenly afford to stay at home; I reckon it was a change in the bureaucratic system at that time.
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BURNS, ANN - Order
GRO Reference: 1838 D Quarter in THE PRESTON UNION Volume 21 Page 567
BURNS Ann ARMSTRONG Preston Preston PRES/5/68
BURNS, JOHN - Order
GRO Reference: 1840 M Quarter in THE PRESTON UNION Volume 21 Page 643
BURNS John ARMSTRONG Preston Preston PRES/10/56
The GRO shows Preston Union and gives a dash on the mother's maiden name although LancashireBMD confirms the mother's maiden name as Armstrong. I had assumed this was to do with the Union thing but they weren't in a workhouse or anything.
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That's interesting...here's another of mine, although again its before the time (1846) when this practice seems to have stopped. The mother was unmarried, but I have no info to suggest she had any prior association with the Workhouse.
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Hello
My rellies are on 1851 census Huddersfield Union. They lived in a house had jobs as did all the neighbours.Its not the same "Union"we think of later on in the century its not the Workhouse.
I got confused and posted about it on West Yorkshire board as has someone else today.
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The word Union is showing that the Registration District's were originally based on the Poor Law system areas and the names reflected that for a while and is how the district was named on the register .... nothing to do with being born in the workhouse.
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The word Union is showing that the Registration District's were originally based on the Poor Law system areas and the names reflected that for a while and is how the district was named on the register .... nothing to do with being born in the workhouse.
That makes sense, but is this a new way of showing the record. Can anyone recall this being the case for registrations prior to 1846 on the old GRO search?
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The word Union is showing that the Registration District's were originally based on the Poor Law system areas and the names reflected that for a while and is how the district was named on the register .... nothing to do with being born in the workhouse.
I've had a more thorough trawl of my ancestors in Bosmere & Claydon. It seems that they added Union until about 1850, then stopped.
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Regarding dashes for mother's surname & being illegitimate - just had an odd one out with a dash in the enhanced index for 1915 & a mothers name in the old index: Helen G Bennett, Southwark 1915. A wife on a distant branch, been working through my tree checking for extra births & filling all mms in, but not intending tracing her parents/siblings anyway. Checked it to find what the middle initial was.
To explain this ... an unmarried woman has no maiden name - so on an illegitimate birth entry the correct entry is a "-".
But, when the indexes used on other sites ( like FreeBMD) were compiled a decision seems to have been taken to (wrongly) repeat an unmarried mother's surname as a maiden name which people have got used to.
So you are using two differently compiled indexes - The new GRO index is correct, but that is obviously causing some confusion.
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The word Union is showing that the Registration District's were originally based on the Poor Law system areas and the names reflected that for a while and is how the district was named on the register .... nothing to do with being born in the workhouse.
Makes sense, thanks.
To explain this ... an unmarried woman has no maiden name - so on an illegitimate birth entry the correct entry is a "-".
But, when the indexes used on other sites ( like FreeBMD) were compiled a decision seems to have been taken to (wrongly) repeat an unmarried mother's surname as a maiden name which people have got used to.
So you are using two differently compiled indexes - The new GRO index is correct, but that is obviously causing some confusion.
I have a 1843 birth certificate for an illegitimate ancestor, but the father is named. Mary Jane, father is Joseph Douglas, mother is Jane Brown. On the new index, she's Mary Jane Douglas and the mother's maiden name is dashed. Are they right in having a dash here instead of Brown?
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I have a 1843 birth certificate for an illegitimate ancestor, but the father is named. Mary Jane, father is Joseph Douglas, mother is Jane Brown. On the new index, she's Mary Jane Douglas and the mother's maiden name is dashed. Are they right in having a dash here instead of Brown?
Completely correct .... she is unmarried so has no maiden name. On the existing indexes you will probably find the entry indexed as both Douglas and Brown ... would be interesting to know if that is still the case on the new GRO index ?
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I have a 1843 birth certificate for an illegitimate ancestor, but the father is named. Mary Jane, father is Joseph Douglas, mother is Jane Brown. On the new index, she's Mary Jane Douglas and the mother's maiden name is dashed. Are they right in having a dash here instead of Brown?
Completely correct .... she is unmarried so has no maiden name. On the existing indexes you will probably find the entry indexed as both Douglas and Brown ... would be interesting to know if that is still the case on the new GRO index ?
Yup I'm with you. Yes previously both Douglas and Brown.
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Does any body know if you get the pdf file the same day as purchased or do you have to wait a week or so like you normally would?
Also when does it go live, would it be after midnight tonight or later in the morning for such as 9am or later
I am hoping it is instantaneously like census images.
I am telling everyone it will be 9 o'clock but between you and me I think it will be midnight as the census was.
Cheers
Guy
It would be great if that happens but I suspect the system may be the same as the current way of ordering wills i.e you submit the order and the pdf will arrive by email some time later....... we shall soon find out !
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AntonyMMM that makes sense with the dashes - cheers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Register_Office_for_England_and_Wales#History_of_the_GRO
"from 1 July 1837. A General Register Office was set up in London and the office of Registrar General was established. England and Wales were divided into 619 registration districts (623 from 1851), each under the supervision of a Superintendent Registrar. The districts were based on the recently introduced poor law unions. The registration districts were further divided into sub-districts (there could be two or more), each under the charge of Registrars who were appointed locally.
A similar process was utilised in Ireland when Civil Registration commenced there in 1865 following from official gov.ie website with slight editing so as not to confuse matters: In the early days, the organisation of the service was based on the "unions" of parishes set up under the Poor Law (Ireland) Act 1838. Initially, these unions formed the registrars' districts and later the superintendent registrars' districts [when births & deaths started 1864]. The Clerk of the Union was usually the superintendent registrar. The medical officer of the dispensary district was usually also the registrar of births & deaths.
The term Union can be seen at the top of all the 19C births & deaths in the GRO book. It makes sense that they copied the existing proceedure utilised in England.
Sorry need to scroll across to right of image. Effectively it says births in the Sub-District of Lurgan in the District of Lurgan = Union.
[The medical officer may not have acted as the Register in England think that was partly as they were percieved as politically/religiously neutral].
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it appears to now have a option to use DX (document exchange), so is this the new option ? doesn't appear to mention new lower price? and you have to register with DX to use it?
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Deleted
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it appears to now have a option to use DX (document exchange), so is this the new option ? doesn't appear to mention new lower price? and you have to register with DX to use it?
No.
From their FAQs:
"Q4. What is the DX delivery option?
DX stands for Document Exchange and is a UK Courier Service that Businesses/solicitors/financial institutions registered with DX use to speed up the time taken to have documents delivered.
Do not select this delivery option unless you are registered with the DX Courier Service."
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I found a cert I would of wanted to order and went to check out process and this came up as different options
Service Options
Please choose the service you require:
Standard :
Despatched on the 4th working day from receipt of order. Cost: £9.25 per certificate.
Priority :
Despatched next working day from receipt of order. Cost: £23.40 per certificate.
Standard Certificate by Post Priority Certificate by Post
Standard Certificate by DX
(not sure what this is?) Priority Certificate by DX
(not sure what this is?)
Priority Certificate by Special Delivery 1pm
+ £6.45 per batch of up to 5
Certificates ordered (UK Addresses Only)
Priority Certificate by DHL + £15.99 per
batch of up to 5 Certificates ordered
(Addresses outside the UK Only
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Quote from: AntonyMMM on Yesterday at 22:43
The word Union is showing that the Registration District's were originally based on the Poor Law system areas and the names reflected that for a while and is how the district was named on the register .... nothing to do with being born in the workhouse.
That makes sense, but is this a new way of showing the record. Can anyone recall this being the case for registrations prior to 1846 on the old GRO search?
It showed on the paper certs dropped for convenience in the indexes as would otherwise have had Warwick & Warwick Union and they are basically one & the same
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I didn't read all 30 pages to see if there was a link to this so sorry if it has already been posted.
http://lostcousins.com/newsletters2/specialnov16news.htm
LostCousins has been testing the new service.
Read about it here
http://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2016/11/gro-england-wales-launches-enhanced.html
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Quote from: AntonyMMM on Yesterday at 22:43
The word Union is showing that the Registration District's were originally based on the Poor Law system areas and the names reflected that for a while and is how the district was named on the register .... nothing to do with being born in the workhouse.
That makes sense, but is this a new way of showing the record. Can anyone recall this being the case for registrations prior to 1846 on the old GRO search?
It showed on the paper certs
Oddly, the only paper certificate I have which refers to a Union is the case of Richard NEAL cited above, who was actually a resident of the Belper Workhouse. Many others for the period we are talking about (mainly Oxfordshire and Yorkshire) only show the Registration District.
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The word Union is showing that the Registration District's were originally based on the Poor Law system areas and the names reflected that for a while and is how the district was named on the register .... nothing to do with being born in the workhouse.
I've had a more thorough trawl of my ancestors in Bosmere & Claydon. It seems that they added Union until about 1850, then stopped.
I've redone a search on the new GRO engine for some of my ancestors for whom I already hold certificates pre-1850. The search reports don't come up with a reference to a Union, so it must be restricted to certain areas. Be handy to know which ones.
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I've a paper for Alnwick Union Northumberland 1841 too, though can't see Union on any English post 1860's & seems I've not ordered any certs during 1850's. Perhaps just got used to seeing it as was doing a lot of Northern Irish research on paternal mothers side last 2 months since the Irish GRO kindly put most of their GRO books digitally online for Free early Sept. Looking at the ones I downloaded the term Union was still in use to at least 1930's in the Irish GRO books eventually replaced by Register's District in a 1950's copy, guess they were a bit slow to change.
Tried a search but nothing immediate just a summary http://www.1837.com/civil-registration/
playing with http://maps.familysearch.org/#layer England & Wales Jurisdictions 1851 map with Poor Law and Reg District ticked there were some differences
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It's up!
Certificate(s) despatched on the 4th working day and PDF(s) on the 5th working day from receipt of order. Cost: £9.25 per certificate, £6.00 per PDF.
Just bought one and dispatch date shows the 16th. Hoped it would be instant like ScotlandsPeople but sure beats waiting the 3 to 4 weeks it takes to arrive to Aus.
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Wasn't just now, but great thanks.
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Just ordered some to try. Dispatch PDFs 16th November. Straightforward to do, just an extra box to tick to say you understand the PDf trial and its limitations re being uncertified.
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Most Customers want to Know: PDF pilot phase 1
Q6. Which records does the PDF pilot cover?
The PDF pilot covers birth, death, marriage and civil partnerships which occurred in England and Wales. Different records will be available in PDF format dependent on the pilot phase running at that time:
Pilot phase 1 (approx. three week duration)
PDF copies of those civil registration records that are held by GRO in a digital format (i.e. birth entries recorded 1837 - 1934 and death entries recorded 1837 - 1957, in addition to those much more recent events captured electronically at point of registration, which include birth and death records registered 2007 onwards, civil partnership records registered December 2005 onwards, and marriages registered 2011 onwards). These PDFs will cost £6.
Pilot phase 2 (approx. three week duration)
PDF copies of all birth, death, marriage and civil partnership records, within 3 hours. These PDFs will cost £45.
Pilot phase 3 (approx. four week duration)
PDF copies of those civil registration entries that are not held by GRO in a digital format. These PDFs will cost £8.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/PDF_most_customers_want_to_know.asp
Can order a pdf direct from new index by clicking a button. Afterwards continued shopping and was returned to the old order page, I didn't bother working to the new index and just typed in year, quarter Vol & page as have always done then selected pdf rather than paper before placing order. I won't be participating in Phase 2 at £45 a copy! Phase 3 where can order Marriage pdf's could stimulate interest marriage location, residence, occupation and fathers names & occupations within the week.
The reason why can't pay to view immediately as in Scotland & Northern Ireland is "Current legislation in England and Wales does not permit the register entries (certificate information) to be made available online" Is a shame after several years of back & forth within the Houses failed to get appropriate wording.
GRO Help info states "Prices are set at assessed cost recovery levels under Her Majesty's Treasury rules - and these differ according to the pilot phase. The pilot will be used to confirm costs if deciding to offer the service on a permanent basis."
I would point out that the fees £6 / £8 / £45 are identical to those documented in the The Births, Deaths, Marriages and Civil Partnerships Records Regulations 2016 legislation (effective 7th November 2016) and to quote Lord Wallace of Saltaire during previous parliamentary discussion of the Deregulation Bill (Nov 2014) "specifying the fee cap within the clause hinders a regular review of fee levels, as any resultant changes would require further amendment to primary legislation". An explanatory footnote to the Regulations even states that "the impact of [the new] regulations...will be tested by way of pilot to inform an Impact Assessment".
So way I see price is not really discounted during the trial phases and the £45 for a 3 hour copy is likely to feature in Heir Hunters (though as a pdf will have 'no "evidential" value' perhaps they will have to subsequently order a paper copy before presenting for Bona Vacantia).
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I'm locking this topic now as it has got to 31 pages and moved away from the original news.
It would seem other related topics have already been started.
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Not sure if you are all aware of this but the General Register Office for England and Wales is trialling a new online system where you can order a pdf copy of certain records and have it emailed to you, the cost is £6.
Registration Services - Certificate Ordering Service http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp PDF Pilot Phase 1 From 9 November, we are trialling emailing PDF copies of registration records. Records will not be immediately viewable, but emailed as a PDF.
View on www.gro.gov.uk http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp
PDF Pilot Phase 1
From 9 November, we are trialling emailing PDF copies of registration records. Records will not be immediately viewable, but emailed as a PDF.
"The pilot is in 3 phases, starting with our digitised records:
Births: 1837 – 1934 and 2007 on
Deaths: 1837 – 1957 and 2007 on
Marriages: 2011 on
Civil Partnerships: 2005 on
Full details are in ‘Most Customers Want to Know’
Phase 1 closes on 30 Nov, or when 45,000 PDFs have been ordered, whichever is sooner. Details of phase 2 (3 hour PDF service) and phase 3 (records not digitised) will be announced here shortly.
Indexes: The GRO historic birth and death indexes are searchable now, via our online ordering site
I haven't tried it personally but it may be useful for some - Judith
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There is another thread worth reading on this including:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=759016.msg6095805#msg6095805