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Research in Other Countries => South Africa => Topic started by: groom on Thursday 10 November 16 00:45 GMT (UK)
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I'll give you the background which may help.
Regina Mary Spurway born 1872 in Cheshunt Hertfordshire married Adrian Freshney Bell on 21st July 1894. They had a son Adrian George Freshney Bell in 1896. Adrian senior died in 1897.
Regina Mary Bell then married Roland Nielson in 1898 in Edmonton, Middlesex. They have a daughter Phyllis Maud D Nielson in 1900 (she died in 1923) They appear together with stepson Adrian in the 1901 census in Great Clacton, Essex. Roland was a bricklayer's labourer.
However, by the 1911 census Regina Mary is using the name Burgess and says she is a widow. She is living with her son in the house of Frederick Hopewell in Nottingham. She has with her a daughter Elsie Maud Burgess born 1903 Transvaal, South Africa. In July 1911 she married Frederick Hopewell.
By his marriage in 1919, Adrian George Freshney Bell has changed his name to Burgess and keeps this for the rest of his life. So Burgess must have been important to him.
So my questions are: Why/when did Regina go to South Africa? It has to be after the census in 1901 and before Elsie's birth in 1903.
Who was Elsie Maud Burgess's father?
Did Regina marry him?
When did she return to England?
Thanks for any help you can give.
Jan
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Just found what I think is Elsie's baptism, but there is no image or date.
E .M . Burgess
Baptism Place: South Africa
Church: St. Georges Cathedral Cape Town
A tree on Ancestry has her birth in Fort Klipdam, Peitersburg, Transvaal but doesn't have a source attached!
From a later passenger list crossing from America to the UK after Elsie Maud married I have found her date of birth as 17 Apr 1903.
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E .M . Burgess
Baptism Place: South Africa
Church: St. Georges Cathedral Cape Town
That one may be Elizabeth May Burgess who was born 1898 and baptised at St George's Cathedral in 1924 aged 25.
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Thank you, that eliminates her. I've been told that Cape Town and the Transvaal are at different ends of the country as well, so unlikely it was my Elsie Maud.
I've just googled Fort Klipdam and it said it is a farm, so even stranger, why would Regina have been there?
I think my next strategy is to try and trace Roland Nielson after 1901, just in case for some reason he changed his name to Burgess and went to S Africa.
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It seems that Fort Klipdam was used during the Anglo Boer War
If you google it and add anglo boer war a number of images come up.
I thought it had to be of significance, perhaps the military connection would be worth exploring.....
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http://www.angloboerwar.com/unit-information/south-african-units/350-kitcheners-fighting-scouts?showall=1
4th paragraph down.......
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Possible for Roland ?
Roland Neilson b 1879 Dec 1918 Godstone , Surrey 2a 576
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Regina Mary Burgess of 13 Lindum Street , Newark gave evidence against a neighbour in a case of child cruelty in February 1907 so that narrows the opportunity for travel to and from South Africa a little.
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Thanks 3SD and CB53. I'm working on this tree with Greensleeves, for a friend of hers, and she wondered if the Boer War might be significant.
If that is Roland Neilson, unless she divorced him, she must have married bigamously - perhaps twice, once to Burgess in South Africa and once to Frederick Hopewell in 1911.
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It looks as if the military connection may be the way to go. A number of Burgess appear on the Boer War website some with English regiments. 1907 could fit with the return of those regiments to England. Perhaps she travelled to South Africa after the war to join her husband...
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I think you're right, 3SD, that must have been the reason. She didn't stay with Roland Neilson for long if that's the case as they only married in 1898.
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Here is a very informative site for the Anglo Boer War
www.angloboerwar.com
You can do a search by name, the regiments that they were attached to are listed. May be worth a look.
Could there have been a reason that Neilson changed his name....
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Could there have been a reason that Neilson changed his name....
Could be, but if he did it looks as if he reverted back before he died and she obviously left him. The other strange thing is that her son born Adrian George Freshney Bell also started calling himself Burgess after 1911.
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So one would assume then that she married a Burgess somewhere, most likely in SA, but who did she follow there??
If she married Burgess in SA, it would be harder to find. There are records but a lot of them aren't indexed and I didn't find anything for her amongst the indexed ones. Why would she have left Nielsen to travel to SA on her own? And so soon after her marriage to him.
Is there any mention of what Regina did? If she was a nurse, she could have gone to SA with a nursing corps?
She must have left shortly after the census was taken in 1901, she would have had to have been in Pietersburg before July 1902 if Elsie was born Apr 1903, doesn't give much time given the voyage and travel across country from either Cape Town or Durban.
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The more I look into this family the stranger they seem!
I've now found Roland Neilson and his 2 siblings' births with mother's maiden name Philpotte. However as far as I can there is no Neilson/Philpotte marriage and there is no father with them in any census. In the 1891 census the family appear under the name of Foster, but revert to Neilson in 1901 and 1911. Phillis Maud Dorothy Neilson (Regina Mary's daughter) is with her grandmother Neilson in 1911 in Croydon, whilst the rest of her family are in Nottingham. I can't find Roland Neilson in 1911, but he isn't with Regina.
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The more I look into this family the stranger they seem!
. In the 1891 census the family appear under the name of Foster, but revert to Neilson in 1901 and 1911. Phillis Maud Dorothy Neilson (Regina Mary's daughter) is with her grandmother Neilson in 1911 in Croydon, whilst the rest of her family are in Nottingham. I can't find Roland Neilson in 1911, but he isn't with Regina.
The name Foster in the 1891 census is a mistake . The transcriber has carried the surname on from the previous household.
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I wondered about that, and now I'm on the laptop, I can see that is the case.
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Here is a link to unindexed church records for Family Search. Scroll through the page until you find the Pretoria, Pietersburg ones. They are mainly for the Anglican Church. You may be lucky and find a baptism for Elsie. The one's for Christ Church and St Mary's cover the years you will be looking for. The others are later.
https://familysearch.org/search/image/index?owc=SFV7-3TG%3A44975801%2C52325201%3Fcc%3D1468076
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Thank you 3SD
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This is certainly an interesting hunt.......
It does look as though there may be a potential "skeleton"
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The thing that puzzles me most is who was this Burgess man? He must have played some part in Adrian George Freshney Bell's life for him to change his name to Burgess. He only seems to have done that after his mother's marriage in 1911 to Frederick Hopewell. Why didn't he stay as Bell or change it to Hopewell? All very odd.
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Makes the search interesting though, even though it is frustrating.
Still digging around for Nielsen and Burgess as and when this internet connection allows. I should be happy I can at least reply to posts....
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Pity there is no indication as to Burgess first name, would make it a little easier, not an uncommon name.
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Why didn't he stay as Bell or change it to Hopewell? All very odd.
Although Regina and Frederick were together in 1939, Regina was in court in December 1912 obtaining a legal separation from him because of his drunken behaviour and because he refused to work after she had come in to some money from her mother. . The report says that they had lived together for 6 years and finally married " through the efforts of some well meaning parties ". Hopewell had also been in court in 1909 for drunkenness . Perhaps it's not surprising that Adrian didn't chose to change his name to Hopewell. I notice that Elsie' marriage is indexed as Joseph H Worton and Burgess or Hopewell. I wonder who she named as her father ?
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Thanks CB53, this story gets better every day! What a pity they aren't my family, nothing as interesting there!
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Could Elsie Maud be a step daughter ? or niece described incorrectly ?
Nesta
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Possible, but in 1946, when Regina dies, probate is granted to Joseph Whorton, who is Elsie Maud Burgess's husband.
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If she had brought her up since she met / lived with / married Burgess then she would be regarded as a daughter. In my experience an executorship is normally given to the person most equipped to deal with or the sole beneficiary.
Did she ever go to SA or did she meet Burgess and daughter in the UK on their return and then / lived with / married him who then subsequently died or ran off leaving her with the young child to bring up ?
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Just throwing the info in the air and seeing how it falls ?
I have just checked the 1911 census - something a bit off here - she only has 2 living children out of 4 born which to me means Adrian and Phyllis. Have just given the new GRO Index a try and have matched Adrian and Phyllis; but no other children.
What proof do we have that Elsie Maud is Regina's child other than the name; she is down as visitor in the census.......
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Bit more digging - this is a fascinating family !
National school Admission Register 1908 Beulah Road Girls School, Croydon
Phyllis Nielson d-o-b 19/02/00 father's name Henry (?) reason for leaving - left the district 3/9/09 Home address 5 Norfolk Road, Croydon
National school Admission Register 1908 Ecclesbourne Rd Girls School, Croydon
Phyllis Nielson d-o-b 19/02/00 parents' name Mrs Nielson (?)
Home address 22 Ecclesbourne Road, Croydon
Looks like Phyllis had been with her grandmother / father for some years. Could her grandfather have been Henry ?
Tried to find Elsie Maud Burgess in the same record set but no trace yet.
Have tried to trace Roland / Rowland in 1911 and the only possible so far - and its a distinct longshot is R Nelson as a inmate in a Mental Asylum in London. By the way his occupation is Upholsterer in the 1901 - checked FindMyPast and A*y to confirm.
Isn't Phyllis' entry on the 1901 census a bit odd - any ideas ?
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I agree the 1901 entry is very strange - Ancestry has it transcribed as Kerburg B R M J Neilon and the image has it as son!
It does fit though with the birth of Phyllis Maud D Neilson, 1900 Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district Edmonton. From the GRO index mother's name is Spurway, Regina Mary's maiden name.
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The fact the Neilsons are in Croydon in 1911 fits quite nicely with Roland's death in Caterham in 1918 as that isn't far away. There was also a large mental hospital there.
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I thought the image looked like another entry had been started but can't really see that happen totally agree that it is Phyllis tho' Transcription is the same on FindMyPast
Maybe the mental patient is Roland then ? Might be worth getting the certificate .,.,£6 PDF ? Not sure if the dates available .
Found Elsie's marriage afterwards miss transcribed as Ellen. I wonder what her marriage certificate says.
I am still leaning towards the fact that regina never left the country and that Elsie is a step daughter or other relative.
Searched through the passenger lists to see if I could Elsie as a child coming back to the U.K. And for Regina but no sign.
How can the wife of a dairyman who is s book keeper go to America in the 50's .,..more than one once - visiting family ? I only have a Uk sub so only looked at the incoming Uk passengers.
This family is such a puzzle .
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I am still leaning towards the fact that regina never left the country and that Elsie is a step daughter or other relative.
That idea would make far more sense wouldn't it?
So another scenario could be:
Burgess (possibly a soldier) has a daughter Elsie Maud born in S Africa in 1903. He brings her back to England and meets Regina Mary Neilson, who leaves her husband and lives with him as his wife taking his name. He dies (Regina says she is a widow in 1911) and Regina takes on Elsie as her step daughter.
However, according to the newspaper reports supplied by CB53, Regina was living with Frederick Hopewell since 1906. This gets more and more complicated!
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Regina Mary Burgess of 13 Lindum Street , Newark gave evidence against a neighbour in a case of child cruelty in February 1907 so that narrows the opportunity for travel to and from South Africa a little.
Look at the date ! and her name
Hadn't noticed before
Maybe her recollection of how long she had been with Burgess was a bit skewed
N
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That could still be right as she didn't marry Frederick until 1911, so even if they were together by 1906, she would still have been known as Burgess. She was calling herself Burgess in the 1911 census when she was living with him.
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I have found 3 children born to the marriage of Joseph and Elsie - the younger two are double entered with MMN as Hopewell and Burgess, the eldest just has MMN of Burgess (1924)
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Thank you. So it looks as if she used two names as well! What a complicated family.
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Not sure this is going to help much, but here is an approx timeline of info found so far:
1872 - Regina Mary Spurway born
1894 - RMS marries Adrian Fresney Bell
1896 - Adrian George Fresney Bell born
1897 - Adrian Fresney Bell dies
1898 - Regina Mary Bell marries Roland Nielson
1900 - Phyllis Maud Dorothy Nielson born
1903 - Elsie Maud Burgess born
1907 - Regina Mary Burgess gives evidence in court
1911 - on census, Regina Mary Burgess described as widow
1911 - (July) Regina Mary Burgess marries Frederick Hopewell
1912 - Regina goes to court seeking legal separation from Frederick Hopewell
1919 - Adrian George Fresney marries with surname Burgess
1939 - Regina and Frederick Hopewell living together
1940 - Frederick Hopewell dies
1946 - Regina Mary Hopewell dies, probate to Joseph Worton
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In memoriam notice from 1947:
Hopewell, Regina Mary - Loving memories of my dearest mother, April 19th 1946. Sadly missed and remembered always, Elsie, Joe and family
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That about sums it up also
1939: 28 Park Street , Nottingham with Frederick Hopewell, so she didn't leave him, or they got back together.
So Elsie considered Regina to be her mother. I'm just wondering whether I can find any living relatives of Elsie who may be able to throw some light on it. I'll have a hunt around.
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Have amended timeline above to include 1939 and also Frederick's death.
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I've found several trees that include the family, but none have Elsie's father on them! They give her birth as Fort Klipdam, Peitersburg, Transvaal, but no sources. It could well be that one put that and the rest just copied!
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Have you seen Adrian jnr's baptism on Ancestry? I can't make out the comment that is written in the left hand border. He was born 25 Oct 1896 and baptised May 6 1898 at St Mathews, Enfield
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Yes I have that, but hadn't noticed the bit in the margin, I can't read it either. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that his father was dead by then? Under father's occupation it has House decorator. Dec? But he was definitely dead, luckily he had a distinctive name, so no doubt: 1897
Registration Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec 1897
Age at Death 26
Registration district Edmonton
I've attached a snip from the baptism to see if anyone can read it
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Sorry not on my laptop but what happened to Phyllis ....did she due a spinster ?
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That about sums it up also
1939: 28 Park Street , Nottingham with Frederick Hopewell, so she didn't leave him, or they got back together.
So Elsie considered Regina to be her mother. I'm just wondering whether I can find any living relatives of Elsie who may be able to throw some light on it. I'll have a hunt around.
Agreed will work down the line tomorrow f no one else has
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Thank you everyone who has shown an interest in this, I had no idea it would prove so complicated or intriguing.
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Sorry not on my laptop but what happened to Phyllis ....did she due a spinster ?
Phillis died in 1923, unmarried
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Thanks Mabel. Yes she died in 1923 in Croydon, so obviously still living with, or near, her grandmother.
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What proof do we have that Elsie Maud is Regina's child other than the name; she is down as visitor in the census.......
Just double checked the image and Regina's status (servant) and the two children as visitors has been added by another hand and in another pen. The George Bell is her son, so it follows that Elsie could her daughter. But as you say it doesn't fit with 2 alive, 2 dead. Unless she didn't have custody of Phillis and counted her as lost.
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I notice that Elsie' marriage is indexed as Joseph H Worton and Burgess or Hopewell. I wonder who she named as her father ?
Yes, I wonder if Elsie's marriage cert might hold the answer - who does she name as her father and what is his profession?
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Hopewell had also been in court in 1909 for drunkenness .
In the newspaper report of this incident it says
"......he [Hopewell] had been up to recently living with a woman who desired to have no more to do with him. On Saturday night he went to the house and broke open the door."
If this woman was Regina, then it seems like it was rather turbulent in their household!
Hopewell's address is given in the article as Caukwell's Yard, Newark.
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I think it is highly possible that Elsie was Regina's daughter given the fact that she and Phyllis shared the same second name.
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Elsie Maud (nee Burgess) Worton is my grandmother. Regina Mary Spurway Bell Neilson Burgess Hopewell is my great grandmother. May I ask what is your relationship to Elsie and Regina?
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Hello, WarBrideDaughter.
Unfortunately this family isn't related to me at all, I was helping a friend, who in turn was working on the tree for a friend of hers. What a fascinating family this is though. Can you add anything to what we have found, if not, I hope this thread helps you in your FH research?
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I would like to know who the friend of the friend is and how they are related to my grandmother and great grandmother. If they are related to me, I would consider sharing what I know to be true with them privately. I would also like to let you know that I am quite frankly shocked at some of the speculation that has gone on on this thread. If you put yourself in my shoes for one minute and think about how it would feel to have total strangers speculating about YOUR grandmother's legitimacy, I am sure you will understand how I feel.
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So I've now been able to determine that the person behind these inquiries about my grandmother and my great grandmother is in fact (*). (*)is my second cousin 1 x removed. I would like it to be known that I in fact initiated contact with (*) in May 2016 with information about our shared great grandmother and my message to her was offering to share information with her. I never received a response from her. I nevertheless followed up with another polite and informative message in Oct. 2016 with more information about George (was Bell) Burgess. Again, I received no response. Now I find this thread which is clearly in response to my messages to said (*) and which led to someone named (*) (Greensleeves) asking (*) (Groom) to help her to find out why my great grandmother went to South Africa. If (*) wants to contact me, I'm open to being contacted.
(*) Moderator Comment:
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