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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Spidermonkey on Thursday 10 November 16 09:55 GMT (UK)
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Perhaps a bit of a long shot this one - does anyone recognise this street scene? I suspect that the photograph I have is a later print of an earlier photo, so things are a bit fuzzy. :-\
Are there any hints from the styles of the buildings as to which part of the country/world this is?
As always, huge thanks for your contributions and thoughts.
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I wonder what was in the buckets beside the fence?
Try not to reply with a four letter word.
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I wonder what was in the buckets beside the fence?
Try not to reply with a four letter word.
Couldn't resist...Coal
Annie
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The house on the left is partially tile-hung which made me think of Sussex :-\
Historically, tile hanging is particularly associated with Kent, Surrey and Sussex, but it is also used in parts of Hampshire, Berkshire, Wiltshire and Buckinghamshire
http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/hangingtiles/hangingtiles.htm
So plenty to work with there ::)
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Is it just me or has this been posted and identified by someone quite some time ago?
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I wonder what was in the buckets beside the fence?
Try not to reply with a four letter word.
Couldn't resist...Coal
Annie
I was wondering if it was "night soil" as it was politely called.
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Is it just me or has this been posted and identified by someone quite some time ago?
If they did, I don't think it was me - I've just had to scan it in now. But, as I said, I think my photograph is a later copy of an earlier photo so it is possible that someone else has the same image. I did do a google search on the image to see if anything came up straight away, which it didn't.
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The house on the left is partially tile-hung which made me think of Sussex :-\
Historically, tile hanging is particularly associated with Kent, Surrey and Sussex, but it is also used in parts of Hampshire, Berkshire, Wiltshire and Buckinghamshire
http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/hangingtiles/hangingtiles.htm
So plenty to work with there ::)
Thanks Jen for narrowing down the area ;)
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Whats the conical thing that's propping up the chap to the right of the buckets?
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Whats the conical thing that's propping up the chap to the right of the buckets?
An early no parking cone ;D
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Whats the conical thing that's propping up the chap to the right of the buckets?
He is deaf
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More seriously a blacksmiths cone
A cone mandrel half way down the page http://theconsummatedabbler.com/2014/03/blacksmithing-everything-you-need-to-know-to-begin-working-metal/
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More seriously a blacksmiths cone
Thank you :)
So the pile outside is where the horse left some ''rubber'' as it peeled out of the shop. :D
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More seriously a blacksmiths cone
Thank you :)
So the pile outside is where the horse left some ''rubber'' as it peeled out of the shop. :D
Trying really hard not to make some comment involving "skid marks" ;D
Thanks Kay really interesting to know that it is still in use today!
So to summarise, we are looking for a street in Southern England that had a blacksmiths shop. Shouldn't be too hard to find, then!
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I imagine the larger timber-framed building next to the blacksmiths is a pub. I did wonder if the blacksmith's was also a wheelwright shop due to the cart, but that could just be there whilst its horse is being shod. Added: Pretty sure it is a wheelwrights as well, the metal circle on the ground is used to rest the wheel on while fixing its metal tyres - not sure what its called.
None of the above is very helpful in locating the scene ;D
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So to summarise, we are looking for a street in Southern England that had a blacksmiths shop. Shouldn't be too hard to find, then!
I imagine the larger timber-framed building next to the blacksmiths is a pub. I did wonder if the blacksmith's was also a wheelwright shop due to the cart, but that could just be there whilst its horse is being shod. Added: Pretty sure it is a wheelwrights as well, the metal circle on the ground is used to rest the wheel on while fixing its metal tyres - not sure what its called.
None of the above is very helpful in locating the scene ;D
Well, you've narrowed it down a little bit more: street in southern England with a blacksmiths and wheelwrights, and possibly a pub next door... What could be easier? ;D
Actually, there are a few minor clues which might get us a bit further (or not).
Tile-hanging has already been mentioned, but I noticed the brickwork on the near building. Flemish bond, I think, but from a quick look online that helps more with dating than a geographical location, though others may know better. But this appears to be somewhere that ordinary buildings used brick rather than stone.
The pub is timber-framed, and I think there may be a similar building in the distance. This suggests somewhere with a good supply of trees - but it doesn't really narrow it down much.
However, unlike the nearer building, the pub roof looks to be made of stone. This is fairly unusual in the south-east of England, so might it help to focus the search area a bit?
Also, in view of the moss on the pub roof, and the shadows in the doroways, I suspect the road goes roughly NW-SE, and we're looking towards the SE.
Arthur
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The cart by the wall could be a clue to location as the style differs according to area - it looks very boxy. Any chance of closer look Spidermonkey?
Jan ;)
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Arthur's observation about the stone roof on the 'pub' plus the small tiles used for the roof on the left plus the tile hanging could make this Sussex as suggested by Jenb. Horsham Stone and Keymer Tiles look very similar to the two different roofing materials in the picture.
or Surrey looking at the Six Bells Horley which is a similar style to Spidermonkeys
http://www.francisfrith.com/horley/the-six-bells_memory-58971
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Have done a close up of the cart and included 'pub' as well. I can see a written sign flush to the wall of the pub, but is there a sign on a pole as well?
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I see a lamp hanging away from the wall.
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From the lamp, go diagonally up and right - there is a square blob. I've been squinting at that to try to work out if that is a sign.
I've treated myself to a new magnifying glass, so I'm just waiting for that to arrive!
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The blob certainly does look like a hanging sign but it is too blurred to tell what is on it. I can't read the sign on the wall either.
Jan
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Oooh, thought I had it here - but maybe not.
I can't find an old photo showing what's on the other side of the blacksmiths.
And of course, the doors and windows don't quite match.
http://www.slaughamarchives.org/picture/number282.asp
Yorkslass
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That's really close - and I think it confirms that we are in the right part of the world - but I think this photo shows that the pub doesn't butt up against the Warninglid blacksmiths http://www.slaughamarchives.org/picture/number283.asp
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True, Spidermonkey.
Now why couldn't I find that one ::)
Yorkslass
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So close :(
I thought I might have found the pub hiding under a more modern exterior in Bolney ( same area) but I can't find any old photos or even whether there was a forge in Bolney
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.9892854,-0.20439,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sb95PhdzPLUEG5q5-uofsOg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
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The 8 Bells in 1960 http://www.francisfrith.com/us/bolney/bolney-the-eight-bells-c1960_b507049
Perhaps this one is a better angle to compare the two street scenes http://www.francisfrith.com/us/bolney/bolney-the-village-c1955_b507020
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This map view does suggest there was a smithy......... http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=14&lat=50.9931&lon=-0.1954&layers=1&right=BingHyb
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But the smithy looks to be on the other side of the road http://maps.nls.uk/view/103669231#zoom=5&lat=8057&lon=15536&layers=BT
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Just done exactly the same thing, Kay! http://maps.nls.uk/view/103669231#zoom=5&lat=8010&lon=15075&layers=BT
And, there should be houses where the beer garden is now on the side - but I can't find a map that shows that.
I think, again, that it is close but not it. :( Sorry Jan :'(
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A step ahead of me with the map. Oh well back to the search - I am convinced we are in the right area though. Probably means it is somewhere else entirely ;D
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A step ahead of me with the map. Oh well back to the search - i am convinced we are in the right area though. Probably means it is somewhere else entirely ;D
I'll start looking in the Hebrides then ;)
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But the smithy looks to be on the other side of the road http://maps.nls.uk/view/103669231#zoom=5&lat=8057&lon=15536&layers=BT
Should the photo not be flipped given its age i.e. the print may be a mirror image?
S_L
P.s. not saying the location is right
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But the smithy looks to be on the other side of the road http://maps.nls.uk/view/103669231#zoom=5&lat=8057&lon=15536&layers=BT
Should the photo not be flipped given its age i.e. the print may be a mirror image?
S_L
P.s. not saying the location is right
Agree the photo should be flipped.
The two carts on the road in front of the smithy are driving on the wrong side of the road for the UK.
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But the smithy looks to be on the other side of the road http://maps.nls.uk/view/103669231#zoom=5&lat=8057&lon=15536&layers=BT
Should the photo not be flipped given its age i.e. the print may be a mirror image?
S_L
P.s. not saying the location is right
Agree the photo should be flipped.
The two carts on the road in front of the smithy are driving on the wrong side of the road for the UK.
I still haven't a clue where the photo is - and the problem with Bolney (the place in the map linked to) is that the pub and smithy appear from the map to be on opposite sides of the road, rather than next to each other.
As for driving on the left - yes, it's the rule of the road, but on a quiet country road, even in a village, I can imagine that some people might not be too bothered about it (cf current speed limits and rules about using mobile phones while driving). So in itself, I'm not sure it's conclusive, but you've encouraged me to look at it again, both as is and flipped, and I do wonder if you might be right.
Look at the man leaning on the cone: I tend to lean on things with my non-dominant side, leaving the stronger arm free, so if I'm typical, and he's one of the right-handed majority, it needs to be flipped. I wonder too if flipping it makes his jacket and the pale one of the man in front of the pub button the correct way, but I haven't managed to get it quite clear enough.
Possibly more useful is the position of the driver of the cart/carriage, well over to one side. Does anyone know if there was a convention to sit on either the left or right?
Arthur
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The object in the road behind the man is static. Possibly a barrow to put the mess into? The cart is on the wrong side of the road because he is driving around it. Well I think so anyway!
Giggsy
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Giggsy, I think you are right about the cart being on the wrong side because he is driving around the barrow.
This could just be wishful thinking, but is there something written over the larger door of the smithy, just beyond the cone?
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Does this help?
Carol
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I think you are so close. The Eight Bells, Bolney on the 1909 map looks like the right footprint. However, the OP's pic. shows what is probably a 15th Century building. Half timbered, even an A frame. Perhaps it was still there in 1909. That would mean the houses to the left and the smithy were demolished, and why the smithy was on the other side of the road. I think the modern Eight Bells is a different building.
OP's pic. could be as early as 1860's or even 1850's. In searching Google images I found other pics. from Surrey street scenes with working men in same clothes, paling fences, popular here and in the U.S. in the 1850's and 1860's. One was dated 1854.
See this, it's a dead ringer for the houses and smithy in the original pic. but is from Leigh, Reigate.
http://surrey.muddystilettos.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2016/01/7Stars_f29-720x478.jpg.
The add-on being the smithy.
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I've just played around a bit with sharpening, contrast etc, and going back to the original orientation, am I imagining it, or might there the sign above the door say something like Eagle Inn? (In which case, was the smithy part of the same establishment?)
Regorian posted while I was writing, and that picture of Leigh does look very similar. The only thing I would say is that the pitch of the roof might be slightly different....
Arthur
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That pic. you posted, Carol, is marvellous. There's so much to see. For instance, the man on the right appears to be wearing clogs. It looks like yours has the right orientation, so the original needs flipping or whatever the term is.
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See this, it's a dead ringer for the houses and smithy in the original pic. but is from Leigh, Reigate.
http://surrey.muddystilettos.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2016/01/7Stars_f29-720x478.jpg.
The add-on being the smithy.
Like I said before, it's a pretty good likeness, but I've just found a map of Leigh and the road layout doesn't match. The pub there (= our cottages and smithy?) is set well back from the road, and it's by a junction which just isn't there in our photo:
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=17&lat=51.2105&lon=-0.2574&layers=171&right=BingHyb
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Quite so Arthurk, I checked the maps which precluded The Seven Stars from being what you are looking for.
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Sorry for not replying sooner, have been feeling rotten with this ubiquitous hacking cough. Thank you Carol for flipping the photo - is the consensus that this is the correct way around?
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Sorry for not replying sooner, have been feeling rotten with this ubiquitous hacking cough. Thank you Carol for flipping the photo - is the consensus that this is the correct way around?
Not sure we've had much consensus - I was hoping someone might be able to comment on my query about the cart:
Possibly more useful is the position of the driver of the cart/carriage, well over to one side. Does anyone know if there was a convention to sit on either the left or right?
Arthur
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I don't think the position of the driver on the cart will help much - the legs of the horse are in the centre of the wheel tracks, so only one horse, & the driver is in line with those legs so most likely he is sitting on the centreline of the cart.
Michael.
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In the original orientation of the picture the driver seems to be more to the right ie the English side.
Had a thought on the side of the road the cart was on and wondered if that was a natural path due to the droppings on the road. Its only a short sample but the natural line of the ruts tends towards the middle of the road. There is also a sharp swerve mark in front of the droppings.
Maybe the side the traffic drove was less ''industrial''
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Just surfing the internet looking at old photographs and recognised your photograph as being Beltons Forge, High Street,Edenbridge, Kent. The link shows the same image c 1890 and also a
recent image from 2013.
Nice to see it has survived but I don't think I would have recognised the later image as being one and the same building!
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jqa/
Trish
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Just surfing the internet looking at old photographs and recognised your photograph as being Beltons Forge, High Street,Edenbridge, Kent. The link shows the same image as yours, c 1890 and also a
recent image from 2013.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jqa/
Trish
Priceless! :) :) :)
Well done you :)
Frank.
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Frank,
I think I have a slight obsession with the old photogaphs that are posted here.
I thought I recognised this one and had to trawl through Rootschat forum trying to locate the posting just to confirm I had seen it somewhere!
Trish
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Impressive sleuthing there! Well done. :)
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Well done.
I have to hang my head in shame - I drive past that every time I go to my caravan and I didn't recognise it! It is just as you turn right coming off the new Edenbridge by-pass. :-[ I'll look at it with different eyes next time I pass it.
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It's strange seeing locations that you are familiar with as they were a century ago.
I'm not surprised you didn't recognise it...there's very little resemblance to the 1890 image (the chap leaning on the cone has probably popped out for lunch!) ;D
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It's strange seeing locations that you are familiar with as they were a century ago.
I'm not surprised you didn't recognise it...there's very little resemblance to the 1890 image (the chap leaning on the cone has probably popped out for lunch!) ;D
More likely popped into the pub for a quick half! ;D ;D
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Brilliant stuff Trish, well done!
Groom, I think you should pop in for a quick half next time you go to your caravan ;D
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Well done, Trish! It's good to know I'm not the only one who gets a bit obsessed with these.
I wonder if the chap in the cart was on the way to his caravan? But Groom - make sure you stay on the right side of the road. ;D
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Well done trish. :)
Its amazing to think the forecourt has moved from horses to horsepower
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Wow Trish! Good detective work! Thank you for solving this one!
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Excellent find Trish....well done...I would have you on my team 8)
Carol
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Nearly in Sussex then.
Well done Trish ;D