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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Worcestershire => Topic started by: Benody1921 on Thursday 10 November 16 14:04 GMT (UK)
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Was wondering if anyone can help me sort out the Pardoe/Wooldridge families in Lye. I've tried to connect them but they all seem to have intermarried, have the same names, and the same occupations. Also wondering if anyone can give me some insight into the Lye in the late 1800s and early 1900s. I don't live in England so I'm not able to explore like I'd like to.
My line connects me to the Pardoes. My great grandad was George Harry (sometimes Henry) Dunn, born 28th August, 1883 (sometimes listed as 1884) to Edwin Dunn (B. 1850 Kingswinford, Staffordshire) and Betsy Brooks (B. About 1849 Lye, Worcestershire). Betsy was the daughter of Samuel Brooks and Elizabeth Pardoe. I cannot find much on Samuel Brooks. Elizabeth Pardoe was the daughter of George Pardoe and Jemima Wooldridge.
I was hoping anyone with these lines wouldn't mind comparing notes.
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This blog post may give a little insight into Lye/Lye Waste/The Lye
https://uptheossroad.wordpress.com/2015/12/07/slums-of-the-black-country-waste-bank-lye/
Some more recent photos http://www.the-archive.co.uk/lye_photographs_page_1.html
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Wow. I had no idea life was like that. A very interesting read. Thank you.
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Hello again
I assume you're the same person who was looking for more details on Edwin Dunn a little while ago.
I do have Brooks from Cradley and Mobberleys from Lye in my family tree but at the moment I'm struggling to see a connection.
However a little digging on Samuel brings up the index for his Will 14.3.1861 £100 Samuel Brooks victualer of Lye Waste.Exe Elizabeth Brooks widow and Joseph Pardoe butcher of Lye.
His wife's Elizabeth seems to have moved up the social scale and is living at Brookland Villa 11.1.1892 and leaves £546 17s .Her executor is daughter Betsey.
Phill Hitchmough's site the Long Pull suggests Samuel Brooks ran the Falcon at upper High St/Halesowen Road Lye Waste.(he was the first licencee and it seems to have remained in his name until 1866).Latter licencees are Brooks and Pardoe.It closed in 1935 and has been demolished.
Black country muse website will give you photos of the area or though I can't spot the Falcon and national library of Scotland has old maps of Lye.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=falcon+inn+lye&biw=1024&bih=671&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjcwePG1qDQAhXlDcAKHfNICykQ_AUICCgD&dpr=1.25#tbm=isch&q=lye+waste&imgrc=qrDifD1wrW3Z0M%3A
is a house at Lye Waste.
ps just found it was the Holly Bush Inn not the Falcon that Samuel ran,(there are two Samuel Brooks.)
A newspaper report 24.4.1861 mentions it's a transfer of licence from The Holly Bush, Lye, from the Executors of the late Samuel Brookes to his widow, Elizabeth Brookes. in the Worcestershire Chronicle.
The 1841 census of Lye Waste seems to show the couple living next to Samuel's father John age 50 and brother James 15 .Dad was a Victualler so it could well have run in the family.
That Hitchmough site of Black Country pubs may help.
Ciderdrinker
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Thank you ciderdrinker. Yes, I am the one looking for Edwin Dunn. That seems to be my biggest challenge.
I wondered if Elizabeth Brooks née Pardoe had come into some money. She seemed to leave a lot to Betsy. I'm from Canada so I don't exactly know how to read the money but it looked like over 500 pounds which is getting close to $1000. That would have been quite the cash back then. And from what I've been reading, that's pretty good for a woman coming from the Lye.
I found difficulty tracing the Brooks side. It looks like Samuel and Elizabeth only had the one child, Betsy. Then I can't seem to find parents for Samuel except for John Brooks. I can't remember his mother's name at the moment. It's probably Ann or Elizabeth.
I suppose on Samuel's Will the Joseph Pardoe is Elizabeth's brother.
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According to this calculator http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1633409/Historic-inflation-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html
£546 in 1901 (closest I could get to 1892) would today be the equivalent of over £60,000 :o
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According to this calculator http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1633409/Historic-inflation-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html
£546 in 1901 (closest I could get to 1892) would today be the equivalent of over £60,000 :o
That's incredible! I'm curious as to what happened to that money. I haven't found a definite death record for Betsy but I would hope she didn't blow through all that money. Part of me wonders if her husband took off with some of it. They didn't seem to live together in 1891 while she's caring for her mom. Then in 1901 she says she is a widow. maybe she is but I haven't found a death record to prove it. It's very mysterious.
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ps just found it was the Holly Bush Inn not the Falcon that Samuel ran,(there are two Samuel Brooks.)
A newspaper report 24.4.1861 mentions it's a transfer of licence from The Holly Bush, Lye, from the Executors of the late Samuel Brookes to his widow, Elizabeth Brookes. in the Worcestershire Chronicle.
Ciderdrinker
Good to know! I remember reading The Holly Bush Inn somewhere. Thank you!
***just checked the Long Pull website. I can't find Samuel Brookes running The Holly Bush Inn or the Falcon. Maybe it's not updated?
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His wife's Elizabeth seems to have moved up the social scale and is living at Brookland Villa 11.1.1892 and leaves £546 17s .Her executor is daughter Betsey.
This website gives you the figures for 1892 http://inflation.stephenmorley.org/
Looking at the 1891 census, Elizabeth and Betsey are living on Belmont Road in Lye. They are the first household that the enumerator lists after Pearson Street. The enumerator then does several houses on Belmont Road before going to King Street, so you can see which direction he was travelling in (historic side by side map here http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=16&lat=52.4544&lon=-2.1109&layers=6&right=BingHyb ) which makes me suspect that this house here https://goo.gl/ufnJ7s - which looks to have been modernised - was Brookland Villa. If you look on the google street view and look at the villa on the other side of the Pearson Street junction (called Alma Villa) I suspect that that is closer to what Brookland Villa would have looked like.
ETA - I was wrong about Brookland Villa - this is Brookland Villa https://goo.gl/FPkyWp
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Thank you! It doesn't look so bad eh. I'm sure it didn't look like that then. I'm wondering why in 1891 Betsy doesn't have her husband Edwin or her son George living with her and her mother. George is living with neighbours and Edwin is missing. In 1881 Betsy and Edwin are living with Elizabeth too.
I found on the 1881 Census that one of my great grandfather's, Charles Pearson married to Sarah Ann (father of Emily Lizzie Louise, my 2nd great grandmother, who married Reuben Taylor, my 2nd great grandad) was a victualler living at 57 Enville St (Queens Head). I'm assuming that's another pub.
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Hi
It does look like there were at lot of publicans in the family.I looked at Samuel Brooks parents John and Elizabeth and except on Samuel's christening which has nooccupation because it's too early he's either a innkeeper or a victualler.
Samuel 12.1.1812,Maria 20.2.1814-12.5.1815,Elizabeth 28.4.1816,William 15.3.1818,Jane 4.6.1820,James 31.7.1824 and Mary 6.7.1828.
It must have been quite tough growing up in a pub on the Waste but at least it means John Brooks is more likely to have had enough money to leave a Will when he died.
It looks like he and Elizabeth married at St Thomas Dudley 10.9.1811.She was called Betty Brooks.Bach and Spinster and witnesses Josh Brooks and Mark Bond.
As Samuel was christened in January it looks as though he was well on the way which may explain why they didn't marry in a local church.
Possible baptism for John Brooks 30.1.1791 to William and Mary with a brother Joseph 17.5.1789
Marriage William Brooks and Mary Wooldridge 24.8.1783 at O/S
and for Betty Brooks.
Betty 21.1.1787 d of Henry and Mary Brooks or
Betty Grinal Brooks d of Samuel and Sussanna 15.10.1786.
The 1851 census has this at the Common Lye
John Brooks 60 widower victualler Lye
Mary daughter 22 housework Lye
No name for the pub but it's next to Cross Walk where the Holy Bush inn was situated so perhaps Samuel inherited the pub from his father.
Indeed John who died 11th Nov 1859 does leave a Will for under £450 proven 9.3.1860.
John Brooks of Lye Waste in the parish of Old Swinford Victualler .Executors brother Joseph Brooks farmer (looks like previously a nail manufacturer in Green Lane 1851) and Richard Pardoe butcher both of Lye Waste.(probably Elizabeth's brother bapt 21.4.1822)
If you sent for the full thing it should be interesting reading.
ps the Worcester Chronicle 14th Nov 1849 had a death notice for George Pardoe butcher of Lye who passed away from Cholera age 62 on the 11th.
And Hitchmough's long pull has a photo of the Queens Head and lots of info on the Pearsons who ran it.Sorry it's a bit hit and miss on the others
Ciderdrinker
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That was a lot of excellent information. Thank you! It's going to take me a bit to sort it all out.
John Brooks married Elizabeth who was also a Brooks...I suppose that was common in Lye.
I found this christening record. I cannot open it since I'm not subscribed right now but it seems to read as follows:
John Brooks
Male
Christened 23 Feb 1845
Lye, Worcestershire
Father: Samuel Brooks
Mother: Elizabeth
Looks like Betsy may have had a brother? I've never seen this record before. If he is her brother, I'd assume he died before 1892 or you'd think Elizabeth would have left all that money to him and not Betsy or to both.
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Hiya
There were two Samuel and Elizabeth Brooks in the Lye area.
If you look at the 1841 census there are two couples.#
Yours living next to father John and the other Samuel Brooks age 25 coal miner ,Elizabeth 30,David 5 and Sarah 11 .
They are both at Lye Waste bank.
So it could be the other couple.In theory you could check his mother's maiden name on the new GRO search index but it keeps going down.
It'll either be Pardoe or Farmer.
Ciderdrinker
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Hi
Just managed to get it to go and yes his mother is Pardoe so yes he's yours.
I've checked 1837-1861 and there's only those two-John and Betsey.
I can't see a death but I can't see him on the census either.
Ciderdrinker
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Well that certainly makes things a little more interesting. Thank you.
I wonder if there's a marriage record for him if he lived long enough to marry. If the amity rumour that George was adopted is true, maybe John is the biological father. Could be why on his school admission he's George Harry B Dunn. Although that theory really doesn't hold since I can't find a birth record for a George Harry Brooks either.
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Hi - my fiancée and I have just purchased 12 Belmont Road, Wollescote and we are interested in the history of the house and it's occupants.
If it's any use for your research I can shed light on some infirmation:
12 Belmont Road
The house was built in 1900.
The deeds to the house confirm the original owner was Betsy Dunn (presumably with George Harry Dunn who features in the census)
The building is the one next door to Brookland Villa (on the streetview link earlier in this thread) it's 12 Floral Villas - the end terrace one with a brown front door, lots of windows on the side and a navy blue wooden gate set back from the road.
You can still see the Rightmove listing for now here
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/s6p/44356629
In 1918 Betsy Dunn sold the house to William Henry Skelding.
I've seen some mention of the family having connections to nailmakers.
There is a brick built shed in the back garden which is as old as the house, it used to be a nailmakers yard, with old bricked in fireplaces.
There's actually a clause in the deeds to our house, that we may not sell nails manufactured on the property from here, or open up any nail shop or additional nail yards on the property.
Also you can see on the Google aerial photos that the adjoining house, number 13 has a large extension at the back - that's actually part of the original house, and 12 has it knocked back to increase garden size in the 1970s.
It's a big house now, let alone with that massive extension on (4 bedrooms) - seems like it'd have been quite a valuable house in the 1900s.
The thread mentions Betsy coming into some money - well this seems a big house for 2 people, (and was a new build in 1900) could explain how some of it got spent.
There also used to be a mine shaft over the road, for the fireclay mine I believe.
Hope that's useful, we've got no family connection, just thought it was interesting to find out who first lived in our house and the information might be useful to you.
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That's amazing! Thank you all of that information. This is so lucky. I really appreciate the information. I live in Canada so it's nice to hear about these places.
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I have a death certificate for a Betsy Dunn. She died in February of 1928. I'm not sure if she's my Betsy Dunn but her address at the time of her death was 16 King Street, Wollescote. She died from shock after being burned from her clothes catching fire from her kitchen grate.
I wonder if there's a way to find out where she lived after she sold the house in 1918.
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If it's any use King Street does back onto Belmont Road- it's only around the corner,
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Saw this in a Lye history Facebook group, though it'd be interesting for your research, although not connected.
It's a wedding photo from 1912 of John Henry Cole.
The house is almost over the road from 12 Belmont Rd, in fact the houses in the background are #9 and 10.
A big wedding just over the road from Betsy and George Dunn, at the time the were living there, maybe they're in the crowd?
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Nice! Thanks so much for sharing. I love seeing these old pictures. I don’t recognize my George in that picture but maybe Betsy is there. By April of 1912 George was living in Stourbridge with my great-grandmother Maggie and their daughter.
I can’t believe how much time has passed since first posting on this thread. I’ve been able to trace grandad George’s biological parents thanks to DNA. He was born Henry Whiting Stuart in Luton, Bedfordshire to a Henry Benson Stuart of the Bengal Army and Sarah Elizabeth Whiting. They weren’t married but they must have lived together as a married couple even though HB Stuart was married to another woman. At some point they were no longer together because Sarah Elizabeth went to France with her daughter in about 1887. I don’t know why George was given to the Dunns though. I know that SE Whiting was a milliner so perhaps she knew Betsy’s cousin, Hannah Maria Pardoe, who was a milliner and dress maker. That’s the only connection I can make out so far. It’s all very interesting.
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A big wedding just over the road from Betsy and George Dunn, at the time the were living there, maybe they're in the crowd?
I reckon that it's Betsy hanging out the window :P
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Haha I’d like to think so!