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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Hertfordshire => England => Hertfordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Londoner 1 on Friday 11 November 16 15:45 GMT (UK)
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Please can you advise me as to how to find out where my maternal grandmother was buried.
I was always given to believe that she was buried in the churchyard at St. Helen's Church, Wheathampstead (close to the surrounding wall). I visited the church and they didn't know of Emily Deeley being buried there ! Maybe she doesn't have a headstone, as I know my family didn't have much money in those days.
I'm at a loss. I looked on line at Hertfordshire cemetery burial listings, but can't find anything.
My grandmother died in St. Albans Hospital on 12th February 1955.
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Did they check the burial registers for the church when you visited :-\
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Was she a widow at the time? If so perhaps she is buried with her husband or other family you could check out :)
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Hello Rosie and Millipede,
It's been more than a year since I went to Wheathampstead church to try to locate my grandmother's grave, but if I remember rightly, two "older" ladies went away and looked. One of them came back five minutes later and just said they had no record of any Emily Deeley.
Yes, my grandmother was a widow at the time, but I am positive that she was not buried with her husband (William Joseph Deeley, who was my step grandfather).
I just don't know where else to look !!!!!
My grandmother lived in BATFORD, Harpenden, Hertfordshire until she died in St. Albans Hospital.
I looked on line to see if maybe she was in a local cemetery like Westfield, Sandridge or St. Albans, but I just can't find anything.
I can remember years ago when an older member of my family was still alive, being told it was Wheathampstead Cemetery.....now I wonder if they were wrong. I've been trying for a long time now, to locate my grandmother's grave.
I appreciate your help so far, thank you.
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Where was her first husband buried, is it possible that she is there
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Hi Rosie......no, her first "husband" (have never found their marriage record ) died in London many years earlier and he wasn't a good "husband".
She was 100% buried in Hertfordshire. Before dying in St. Albans hospital on 12. 2.1955. she lived with her eldest daughter in Batford, Harpenden, Herts. Her daughter has long since passed away.
Would St. Helens in Wheathapstead still have a record if my grandmother didn't have a headstone ?
I've been looking for SO long now to find her burial place and I just don't know where else to try. I want so much to find her.
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So many didn't have headstones, I hardly ever find one for my ancestors, but all burials should be recorded with a burial location so you can visit the spot.
You could try writing to St Helens to double check the ladies were correct and there is no record of her - and if not ask for suggestions in the area to check next :)
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There may also be a notice in a local paper about her death which may give details of funeral. Sorry I am not in the area to suggest which paper.
Rosie
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I'm just looking at the church online (possibly where you have already looked) and there are plot number sections and names listed but no Deeley :(
If it's possible she never married her "husband" could she be buried under her birth name - what was that?
I see the death registration is under Deeley but worth a check.
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Marriage Jun 1909 Southwark
Brooks Elizabeth Mary A
Deeley William Joseph
Don't know if that is the right William Joseph but he was a cook and a little creative with the truth if census is anything to go by!
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She wasn't called Emily Lines was she?
Marriage Dec 1914 Edmonton
Deeley William J - Lines
Lines Emily - Deley
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Hi there Millipede, I SO appreciate your help. I "messed up" with sending you a PM just now, but want you to know how much I appreciate your time and effort to help me. "Thank you" so much.
Her birth name was Emily Lines, but she always went under the name of Emily Jones with her first "husband" and then she married William Joseph Deeley, so was officially Deeley at her time of death.
I LOVE what you found out about William Joseph Deeley being creative with the truth (made me smile a lot). Which census was it ? LOL Yes, I believe he was a cook ! So now, I'm wondering as to whether he was in fact married twice ! ? Interesting.
Thank you to Rosie too.
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Millipede,
This is going off track about finding the burial place of my maternal grandmother Emily DEELEY (nee Lines and then "married" to Jones).....but I had to tell you that I had a lot of "fun" this afternoon trying to find out about Elizabeth Mary Ann Brooks, who you discovered had married my step grandfather William Joseph Deeley (my grandmother Emily's only "legal" hubby).
Didn't find too much about E M A Brooks, only what's on their marriage certificate, but it sure did "tickle me", so thank you.
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:D
If the marriage to Mrs Brooks (think she was a widow on the marriage) is to the same man then he married at least twice.
You could get the marriage certificate to Emily to see more about him - if he said he was widowed etc and confirm same father as the previous marriage.
Will look it up again but think father was Joseph **
Incidentally there is a family tree with Emily Lines on that has a picture of her and her daughter.
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** Marriage 10 April 1909 St George The Martyr Southwark
William Joseph Deeley 34 bachelor cook 6 Nelson Place father Joseph deceased tin plate worker
Elizabeth Mary Ann Brooks 33 widow 6 Nelson Place father John Holbrook deceased blacksmith
By 1911 there is somehow a son 17 and a daughter 7 so I wonder where they came from ???
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Beginning to doubt myself now but pressing on regardless :D
1881 4 Alma Road Bermondsey
Joseph Deeley 36 tinsmith born Southwark
Martha 39 born Greenwich
William 6 born Southwark
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Ok have found this one with widowed mother Martha is a cook so am wondering if there are two people or if the same one is in two places at once!
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You are in luck Emily Lines marriage is online
7 Nov 1914 register office Edmonton Middlesex
William Joseph Deeley bachelor 39 cook (restaurant) father Joseph deceased tinsmith - sounds familiar
Emily Lines spinster 39 father George farm labourer
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Hi
There appear to be 3x children Seeley/Lines born Southwark "1915-1920"
The 1914 marriage describes Emily as "spinster".
If Mr Seeley is your Step-GF then either the 1914 marriage description is incorrect or it's not the correct one?
FYI, there is a 1900 marriage Sydney G Jones / Emily Florence Lines which produces (at least) 5x children.
Easily found on 1901 Kensington ages 22y and 21y no children.
You will have to do the search 1911 but they are recorded.
Regards
Ray
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However,
1890 St Albans 2 1114 30 page18
The Folly, Wheathamstead, St Albans, Hertfordshire, England
George Lines 38 b Sandridge
Ann Lines 30 b Bendish
Emily Lines 15 b StAlbans
Eleanor Lines 9 b The Folly
Rosy Lines 6 b The Folly
Gertrude L Lines 3 b The Folly
Ray
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Ray - the family tree names Mr Jones as John Alfred Thomas not Sydney G, I don't think she actually married her Mr Jones.
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1901
John A Jones 40
Emily 26
Daisy 6
Lily 4
Rose 2
John 3 months
Grace Lines step daughter 4
Gertrude Lines visitor 13
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Incidentally there are some London school admission records for Lily Jones - Rose Jones - Grace Lines
20 Apr 1903
father John
address 28 Bermondsey Street
Snowsfield school Southwark and gives their dates of birth
Lily 23 Aug 1896
Rose 22 Apr 1898
Grace 25 Sep 1896
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Can we find William Joseph Deeley in 1901?
I can see him in 1881/1891 and twice it would appear in 1911 but not 1901
Possibly with mother Martha as he is with her everywhere else
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I've just had a good look on the 1901 census too for William Joseph Deeley. Can't even find his mother, Martha.
He's like the Scarlett Pimpernel !
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Also been looking for "the possible children" of William Joseph Deeley on 1901 census ......George Albert Deeley aged 17 in 1911 and Dorothy Deeley aged 7 in 1911. I wonder if they were really William's children ? The 1911 census says they were.
Can't find hide nor hair of any of them on 1901. What an elusive lot they are !
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He's a Pimpernel alright!
I know, the 17 year old especially would be interesting to find him age 7. I wondered if they were step children but wife was even younger wasn't she to have had them = mystery.
Am going to have another look. And to answer your question about the school records they are on ancestry :)
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I can't find births for those 2 children can you? Supposedly born Lambeth. I don't know who they came from :-X
I wonder if they were under Brooks with his wife Elizabeth Mary Ann as the mother.
There is a Dorothy Lydia Brooks born Lambeth Jun 1905
but no corresponding George Albert and besides where is Elizabeth in 1901 - everyone is missing :-\
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More plot thickening - found a marriage 26 Dec 1896 Elizabeth Mary Ann Holbrook 21 father John blacksmith but not to Mr Brooks to Mr George Hall Butterfield - is this the same Elizabeth who marries Mr Deeley?
And where does Brooks fit in - has she married again inbetween :-X
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Well George Hall Butterfield has got another "wife" by 1911 - "married" 10 years tho I don't see a marriage till 1933!
Is this the same Elizabeth Mary Ann Holbrook marrying these two men? And how does she get the name Brooks if Butterfield was still alive.
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Hi
For the note pile . . . . .
Birth 1895 Sep Islington 1b 449 George Albert Butterfield
???
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It's getting to be a very big note pile!
For info William Joseph not baptised till 3 May 1881 - born 19 Jan 1875
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William Joseph and Emily Deeley are on electoral register together in Southwark 1918 1919 1922 1924 1925 1926 1928 1929 1931 1932 1934 1935 1936
In 1937 1938 there is a Martha and an Ellen Deeley as well
1939 no Martha but a Leonard George Deeley as well
so they stayed together quite a while
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My family tree on Ancestry is public, so please, if it helps, take a look. The tree name is MARTIN.
My maternal family tree is SO complicated, to say the least !
My maternal grandmother was Emily LINES.
She had an illegitimate child named Grace in 1896
She then met John Alfred JONES (my maternal grandfather).....his birth name was MARTIN the same as his mother as he was illegitimate, but his mother changed his name to Jones when he was 10 years old (maybe his birth father was Jones, who knows). John Alfred Jones had three daughters before meeting Emily, from a previous marriage, Daisy, Lilian and Rose.
John Alfred Jones and Emily never married (no trace of a marriage anywhere) but she took his name of Jones immediately. They went on to have about six children together, my mother being the youngest, born in 1912. John Alfred Jones died a year after my mum's birth, in 1913.
My grandmother then went on to marry (officially lol) William Joseph Deeley a year later, in 1914.
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Not relevant but just an "interesting" side snippet:
The extremely weird thing about all this is........my maternal grandfather's BIRTH name was John Alfred MARTIN, as Martin was his mother's and his grandparents family name.
My father's name, so my family name, was also MARTIN !!!!!!!!
So working on my family tree, I have SO many Martin on BOTH sides. I told you it was really weird !!!
Hope you could follow that ! ?
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Deeley and Brooks......it feels like my brain is porridge oats !
Where are they and where are the two "children". They all must have been escapologists !
What a mish mash !
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[ Amended 15/11/16 ]
Do you have the birth cert for Grace Lines b1896?
The reason I ask is this . . . . .
Marriages Dec 1892 St Albans 3a 875
The four people listed are
William French
Emily Lines
Ernest Edward Lines
Lilly Ethel H Lines
So if Emily married Ernest and Grace was an issue, of said couple,
then she is not illegitimate.
Postscript
William French married Lilly Lines = can be found 1901 with 3x children in W'stead
Emily Lines married Ernest Lines = can be found 1901 with 1c child Ernest in Braintree
and,
as coincidence would have it, next door to a pub run by a couple surnamed FRENCH :o
Ray
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Hi Ray
The birth certificate is on a family tree but no father listed.
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Hi Ray, my cousin has Grace Lines birth certificate (her mother was Grace), but there is no father's name. My cousin is now quite elderly and lives in America, so it's hard to correspond now days.
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Hi
[ fyi I amended my prev post = unimportant but could be useful to someone ]
Ray
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Looking at the two mystery children - George Albert Deeley 17 in 1911 and Dorothy 7 in 1911 both allegedly born Lambeth London.
Whoever the parent(s) were - either William or Elizabeth or both - if she was the mother she would only have been 17 herself when she had George so surely his birth registration would be under her original single name of Holbrook?
I'm wondering now if that's where her alleged widowed name of Brooks came from - a deviant of Holbrook as there doesn't seem to be a Mr Brooks in the picture at all.
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Baptism - maybe - for Elizabeth Ann Holbrook St Saviour Bath
27 Feb 1876 - born 26 Nov 1875
Parents John occupation smith and Clara
Address 12 Claremont Cottages
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In 1881 she is with parents and a sister
John Holbrook 28 blacksmith
Clara 24
Annie 5
Emma 3 **
Living Walcot Bath which is what she puts for place of birth 1911
** Birth registered as Clara Emma Jun 1878 Bath
Coincidence but her sister had a daughter called Dorothy and a son called Albert
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Looks like such a strong possibility Millipede, that Ann Holbrook /Brooks are one of the same.
My goodness, many people in those days were uneducated, but they surely knew how to be devious !
Like you said too....her sister had an Albert and a Dorothy, I wonder if they too could also be one of the same.
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How about looking for these 2 mystery children in 1939?
Dorothy might be married so under another name but worth a try in case anything interesting shows up.
And William Joseph of course - where was he and who was he with.
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I wonder why George Albert and Dorothy, weren't named after their "parents", or have at least one of their names, as was the tradition in those days.
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I am stumped. Looking for the births of those two everywhere and nothing. It's a pity you can't just search with mothers maiden name as surely they should be under Holbrook - or the oldest one at least as she was only 17/18 then.
Unless William was the father with another woman and they are registered under her maiden name.
I wonder if they did "adopt" them out of thin air and they don't belong to either one of them.
They are down as son and daughter but......stumped.
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There's a Gladys Dorothy Deeley birth registered Sep 1906 Croydon mothers name Port but doesn't look likely does it.
William Deeley/Annie Port marriage Mar 1900.
No they are together as a family so she isn't the mystery Dorothy.
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Not very likely Milliepede....a bit too remote, eh.
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Even more remote but a Dorothy Holbrook was born Bath 1904 - no mothers maiden name.
Now didn't Elizabeth Mary Ann come from Bath? I wonder if she headed home to have the baby?
If I can find a matching George Albert we could be in business!
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The Scarlet Pimpernel(s) strike again !
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I might have found something worth investigating in 1901 :D
Looking for Elizabeth Mary Ann under all the many surnames she had and found this one in Bath.
Marry (prob Harry) Curtis 23 born Bath
Emma Curtis wife 22 born Bath
Annie Butterfield married visitor 25 born Bath
George Butterfield visitor 5 born London
I think she was down as Annie once before. This could be The George on 1911?
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There's a George Albert Butterfield birth Sep 1895 Islington but that would be before George Hall Butterfield and EMA Holbrook married.
Plus mothers maiden name FITT per the new search. Hmmm maybe not then. I can't understand why he isn't under Holbrook if she was his mother because she wasn't married when he was born.
Too confusing by half and we still haven't got the answer to your original question.
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There's another Butterfield/Fitt birth in Islington - Caroline Lydia in 1900 **
Maybe Fitt is another surname for Elizabeth to add to the rest but I can't see a marriage.
**baptism shows her parents as George and Lydia
Forget all that the family is together in 1911. Marriage was under Fitts not Fitt in 1893.
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Marry (prob Harry) Curtis 23 born Bath
Emma Curtis wife 22 born Bath
Annie Butterfield married visitor 25 born Bath
George Butterfield visitor 5 born London
Didn't click at first but Emma Holbrook sister of our Elizabeth married a Henry Curtis so even though it doesn't say sister in law for Annie I am 99% sure that must be Elizabeth with her sister.
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You really are an excellent "Sherlock" Millipede. My brain is getting like mashed potato....they're all SO devious !