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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Yorkshire (West Riding) Lookup Requests => Yorkshire (West Riding) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) Completed Requests => Topic started by: drscales on Monday 21 November 16 23:14 GMT (UK)
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Hi Community,
I'm Dominic R. Scales, born in Leeds in 1959, moved to Germany when I was 7 with my parents.
I'm trying to find the parents of my great-granddad, James William Scales. He was born in Leeds in Q3 1888 (GRO Ref 09B 424) and died in Q3 1914 (GRO Ref 09B 412). In Q3 1913 he married Martha Ellen Crosfill (1894-1958).
My granddad Jim, also a James William Scales, was born in Leeds 28 July 1914 - so he probably never saw his dad. Jim married Molly (Mary Elizabeth) Gorman from Blackpool/Southport in 1937. (Got some info on her ancestry) My dad, Robert James, was born in Nov 1937 and passed away in October 2015.
I've found a lot of information on the Crosfill ancestry, but can't seem to find anything on GGdad's parents.
I'm using mainly FamilySearch, freebmd, yorkshirebdm, lancashirebdm for my research.
I've found some Wray from Aberford, Tyas and Asquith...
I haven't come across a baptism for JW, yet. Is there a good place to look for that?
Tonight I've ordered the birth and death certificates for JW senior as pdf-email. Let's get some enlightenment :)
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
The new GRO maiden name search does not show a mothers maiden name for James born 1888 so you will need to buy a copy of the birth cert to find his parentage
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From the new GRO site that gives mother's maiden names
SCALES, JAMES WILLIAM
GRO Reference: 1888 S Quarter in LEEDS Volume 09B Page 424
As you can see there is no maiden name given, so this could mean that she wasn't married and her name was Scales. Have you got his marriage certificate, does that name a father?
Sorry we crossed, Carole but same idea.
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Wow - thanks for the quick replies :D
I've ordered the birth and death certificates today. Didn't think about the marriage cert, though.
There is no father's name on the marriage registration index (9b 996).
Tara,
Dominic
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Hi all wondering about the James William SEALES at Fox Street, Leeds in 1891
Census ref RG12/3691/25/8?
Keyboard86
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Wow - thanks for the quick replies :D
I've ordered the birth and death certificates today. Didn't think about the marriage cert, though.
There is no father's name on the marriage registration index (9b 996).
Tara,
Dominic
I'm afraid there won't be, you have to get the certificate to see that.
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Re: the 1891 entry posted by Keyboard
That ties in with the 1911 entry I found - he was illegitimate
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Hi all wondering about the James William SEALES at Fox Street, Leeds in 1891
Census ref RG12/3691/25/8?
Keyboard86
Also ties in with no father! Looks like Scales on the image.
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Hi again, I can see the death of a James William Scales aged 26 in 1914 Leeds, oddly there is a British Army Service Record of a James William Scales b c 1889 Leeds who at attestation 1915 was 26 years old he was in the Royal Engineers 3rd, 48th Battalion Service Number 62088
Residence Naas
Alice Jane Scales married George Whitfield, Sarah Isabella Scales married William Medd, still trying to work out Ann ( Could be Walter Pyrah)?
Keyboard86
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Not his baptism I'm afraid, but James William Scales aged 26 of 'Lds Township Infy' was buried at Leeds Catholic Cemetery (Killingbeck) on 28 Sep 1914. Date of death given as 25 Sep 1914. Grave Reference BA 152.
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OK that looks spot on, so I wonder who the James William Scales was who said he was born in Leeds signing up for the Royal Engineers 1915?
EDIT he was born 1892 Leeds, incorrectly transcribed as 1889, the 5 year old Mary Alice Scales with James William in 1891 census married a James Allen 1909 Leeds.
Anyone found 1891 family in 1901?
Keyboard86
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Thanks Jomot - I'm eagerly awaiting the B+D Certificates, due today :)
Let's see if this confirmes your find - I really hope so!
keyboard86 - are you also researching this Scales-branch?
Love to get in touch, then.
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Hm, I think that
John Kiske Seales 1891=
John Duke Scales 1881=
John Rook Scales b. Q4 1873, 9B 477 =
John R Scales on census 1901, Leeds, wife Sarah, with three sons =
John Scales married Sarah Dickinson Q3 1893, Leeds 9B 744 =
John R Scales, census 1911 =
John R Scales, died Q4 1927, 9B 456
What do you think?
Can anyone please check the original census sheets for Duke/Kiske/Rook?
Dominic
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Hi again, I have looked at the original census pages for John R Scales, in 1881 it does appear to be "Duke" possibly a misheard/misread Rook/e. 1891 looks to be Rook/e
1901 John R Scales 28 b Leeds with Sarah 25, John Wm 6, Walter 4, Samuel 3 months, Joseph Dickinson 20 Brother in law Census ref RG13/4222/126/13
PS No interest in family, just glad to help out!
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Thanks a lot for checking, keyboard86!
I'm still waiting for the mail from GRO with the birth and death certificates for James William...
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Hi again, the John Rook Scales birth December qtr 1873 Leeds has Mothers maiden name as Johnson
A quick check Mmn Johnson also gives Harriett Scales Dec qtr 1871 Leeds 098 417
Going on the below deaths there was also a Harriet Scales mmn Johnson Dec qtr 1869 Leeds
Mary Elizabeth Scales September qtr 1875 Leeds 098 516
Keyboard86
EDIT There are deaths of Harriet Scales aged 1 Dec qtr 1873 and Mary Elizabeth Scales Dec qtr 1875 aged 0 Leeds
All the children on the 1881 census with John "Duke" Scales had mmn of Johnson
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SCALES, Harriet 5 years 1848 Burmantofts Cemetery (Beckett Street Cemetery) Consecrated grave No1609 (no parent listed)
SCALES, Harriet 11 months 1870 Burmantofts Cemetery (Beckett Street Cemetery) Consecrated grave No3663 (daughter of John)
SCALES, Harriet 1 year 9 months 1873 Burmantofts Cemetery (Beckett Street Cemetery) Consecrated grave No 1925 (daughter of John)
SCALES, Mary Elizabeth 4 months 1876 Burmantofts Cemetery (Beckett Street Cemetery) Consecrated grave No8961 (daughter of John)
SCALES, Mary Elizabeth 4 months 1899 Burmantofts Cemetery (Beckett Street Cemetery) Consecrated grave No9846 (daughter of John)
Brian
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Hi again, John Scales married Mary Johnson September qtr 1858 Pickering 9d 567 in 1871 John/Mary/Alice J and Sarah I are on RG10/4553/142/4, Ann aged 8 Grandaughter b Pickering is with amongst others a Jane Johnson 58 Widow
Census ref RG10/4841/125/5
Keyboard86
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Wow, wow, wow! Thanks Brian and Keyboard86!
:)
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:) Still plowing backwards, there was a birth of a Thomas Rooke Scales June qtr 1859 Leeds Mmn Johnson
Keyboard86
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I'm making a list of what I've got.
Will take a couple of more minutes :)
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Hi Keyboard86, thanks for the info, great finds.
I have now found a lot of info on the Family:
Starting with Rookes Scales 1813-1867
married Sarah had children (Census 1841)
John 1835,
Mary 1838,
Rookes 1840
Harriet Q3 1843 - Q4 1848 (thanks Brian)
Census 1861
Thomas 1842
William 1847
George 1854
John (bap. 25.12.1835) married Mary Johnson in 1858
Their children were (Censuses 1861, '71, '81,'91)
Thomas Rooke Q2 1859 - Q2 1859 , bap 18.04.1859 - bur. 17.05.1859
Ann Q3 1863
Alice Jane Q1 1865
Sarah Isabel Q1 1867
Harriet Q4 1869 - Q4 1871
John Rook(e) Q4 1873
Mary Elizabeth Q3 1875 - Q4 1875
Ann seems to have two children as single mom:
Mary Alice Q2 1886
James William Q3 1888 (my gg-granddad)
Rookes son Rookes married Hannah Piercy in Q4 1864
daughter Mary Q1 1867
John and Mary's son John Rook married Sarah Dickinson
Children John William Q3 1894
Walter Q4 1896
Hariett Q3 1899 - Q3 1899
Samuel Q1 1901
Joseph Q2 1903
Sarah Q3 1908
Alice Q4 1910
Ellen Q3 1915
There is a Stanley in the 1911 Census but I can't find a birth/christening or Mmn
Sarah had her brother Joseph visiting in the 1901 census
And I've got the Johnson family in the 1871 census where Ann is visiting her grandma and uncles...
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Hi again, there was by the looks of it in 1861 a Jane Isabell/a Dec qtr 1860 Malton dies as Jane Isabella Scales June qtr 1863 aged 2, at present cannot locate birth mmn Johnson
Keyboard86
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Yep, you are right. I have her in my notes and overlooked her. She is on the 1861 census age 0 together with parents John and Mary...
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Hi again, you appear to be missing the 1851 census for Rooke & Sarah, with family with a Sarah Lyth? 76 in Pickering
Census ref HO107/2373/157/12
Keyboard86
PS if you use Anc**** he is surname SAULES
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Got some more:
Rookes Scales and Hannah Piercy. Hannah's surname is written Pearcy and Pierson for the births at GRO index
They had the following children
Mary Q4 1866 (bap. 10.01.1867)
Rookes Q3 1869 (bap. 10.09.1869)
Daddy Rookes died in Q1 1870
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:) Look above for 1851 clues
Keyboard86
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Hi again Sarah Lyth/e 65 in 1841is on the previous page to Rooke/Sarah and family, with an Ellis Lyth 8 Female, Mary Bruff 12 and Thomas Simpson 50, more Lyth/Lythe on this census page/s
Census ref HO107/1261/ 6/13 / 19
Keyboard86
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Thanks for the pointer - Unfortunately, I don't have access to the Census pages.
I'm using FamilySearch and there I found the 1851 Census entry with Sarah Lyth 76, a cartman's widow, and the Scales family, and a lodger... and the 1841 entry.
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Sarah Lyth died in 1853 at age 77
GRO Reference: 1853 J Quarter in PICKERING UNION Volume 09D Page 250
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:) The marriage of Rook/e and Sarah possibly Lyth/e is something I cannot locate?
Keyboard86
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It could be that Sarah's dad is a John Lyth born 1775, bap. 16.11.1775 in Middleton by Pickering - father William Lyth. He married a Sarah Storry in Ellerburne 21.04.1799.
Bartholomew, bap. 16 Mar 1800 in ELLERBURNE
John, bap. 27 Dec 1801 in ELLERBURNE
Thomas, b. 28 Nov 1805, bap. 09 Jan 1806 in LEVISHAM
Mary, bap. 17 Jan 1811 in LEVISHAM
Sarah, bap. 20 Mar 1814 in LEVISHAM
What do you think?
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Hi again, Rooks Scales married Sarah Lyth 1st June 1835 Pickering
Keyboard86
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Yaay :D! How did you find that? Cause I found it too on FamilySearch, literally two minutes ago.
I just received the B+D Certs as PDF!
James William is Ann's son.
Now then, off we go...