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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: fiveboys5 on Thursday 24 November 16 00:21 GMT (UK)
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My Great Great Grandparents were Thomas Turnbull born 1829 and Ann Hounam born 1829 in Langholm, Dumfries. I have found out they are both buried in Old Church Yard, Langholm. I know nothing about Thomas's parents, the only information I have was he died in 1861 in Langholm, and had six children. His Son Joseph born in 1855 is my Grandfather and he married Elizabeth Smithwhite in South Shields, Durham.
Could anyone help me with the parents and siblings of Thomas. As far as I know he was a boot/shoemaker in 1851, and lived in Drove Road. I need help in locating someone who knew the family or are related to Thomas or Ann.
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For the benefit of others searching, this is the marriage:
Thomas TURNBULL to Ann HOUNAM 07/12/1849 Langholm (Scotland)
Unfortunately I'm unfamiliar with Scottish records of the time and how much information is on them. The marriage is transcribed on FindMyPast so I suspect nothing more is present.
I don't know how flexible your dates of birth* are for Thomas and Ann, but I did notice this one for your consideration:
Thomas TURNBULL son of Robert TURNBULL and Margaret GRAHAM, ch. 4/1/1825 (aged 0) Eskdalemuir, which is apparently about 2 miles from Langholm.
* Edit- just looked up the census and he seems to be fairly consistent, doesn't he? Of course, that can mean he's consistently wrong but it is certainly awkward! He appears to be in an institution in 1841 (unless he was just in a large household or there's a transcription boo boo, I can't actually see the image), which could account for his age being off if he was misinformed about what it was.
There is a possible burial for Robert TURNBULL
TURNBULL, ROBERT ----- aged 44 - 30/03/1840 - 839/30 340 - Langholm or Staplegorton
I can't actually find a marriage of a Robert TURNBULL to a Margaret GRAHAM, any other children of that couple, or anything relating to Margaret, although in one way that might be a "positive" thing because it all might contribute towards him ending up alone by 1841.
If you've got any Scotland's People credits, it might be worth seeing if there's an image of the christening to look at to see if it gives any signs of him being illegitimate.
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat the family were still at the same address on the 1861 census
Thomas Turnbull age 32 boot /shoemaker
Ann Turnbull age 31
Thomas 11,James 8, Elizabeth 6, Joseph Edward 4.
There is a death for Thomas Turnbull 1861 age 32 in Langholm or Staplegorton you can view this record on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk and that should give you his parents names
Rosie
Added Thomas and Ann and son Thomas were in Charles Street Langholm Dumfries on the 1851 census
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Hello All,
I am afraid someone has got their family mixed up Joseph Turnbull, born 5/Nov/1856. langholm, Dumfries, to parents Thomas Turnbull, and Ann Hounam, never left Langholm, Dumfries. Joseph Turnbull. married in Langholm, lived in Langholm, all his life and died in Langholm.
Regards,
Jonn.
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John I have Joseph Turnbull's Birth Certificate and Marriage Certificate, on his Birth Certificate is Thomas listed as his Father. My Nanna is definitely the daughter of Joseph Turnbull, he was married at the age of 19 in South Shields. My Uncle years after my Great Grandfather died found the family and links were formed, and some of the family members visited South Shields. Something happened long before I was born and the family split. Plus we have the family tree matched to that of an online Genealogy site with members of my family linked direct to Joseph. Other family members have the same information as I have recently discovered. I am planning to visit Langholm some time next year and check out all the information that is available and maybe I might finally find Thomas Turnbulls's parents and information on his siblings.
I have tonight received an email from someone who actually lived in Langholm and the information he sent matched with what I have.
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From the death cert, hope it helps: Thomas Turnbull, shoemaker, married to Ann Hounam. Died June 2, 1861 at Drove Road, Langholm. Parents were James Turnbull, stocking frame work knitter, and Elizabeth Rill (might be Roll or Bill, it's hard to read). Died from (can't read) 21 days, congestion of brain 14 days. Informant was John Hounam, brother in law, Charles Street, Langholm.
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Checked out of curiosity: July 26, 1878. Marriage for Joseph Turnbull, slater (master), bachelor, to Agnes Clark, power loom weaver, spinster. He was 21, living in Kirk Wynd, Langholm, and parents were Thomas Turnbull, shoemaker (deceased), and Ann Hounam.
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Checked out of curiosity: July 26, 1878. Marriage for Joseph Turnbull, slater (master), bachelor, to Agnes Clark, power loom weaver, spinster. He was 21, living in Kirk Wynd, Langholm, and parents were Thomas Turnbull, shoemaker (deceased), and Ann Hounam.
That was very kind of you using your credits on S P ..and this Joseph and his wife Agnes were in High Street Langholm Dumfriesshire in the 1901 census occupation slater ...
Looks like the other Joseph Turnbull was in South Sheilds in the later census birth place Edinburgh
Fiveboys Is this them in Adelaide Street South Shields Durham in the 1901 census ?
Joseph Turnbull age 46 occupation coal miner ..born Scotland
Elizabeth Turnbull age 50
Ralph , Elizabeth ,Helen and Joseph
Rosie
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Hello All,
This is the son of Thomas Turnbull, and Ann Hounam, in the 1881 census two years after his marriage to Agnes Clark, in 1878.
Address. 110 High Street, Langholm, Dumfries.
Joseph Turnbull, Head, Master Slater, M. age 24 years, M. born Langholm, Dumfries,
Agnes Turnbull, Wife, M. age 23 years, F. born Langholm, Dumfries,
James Turnbull, Son, age 10 weeks, M. born Langholm, Dumfries.
Regards,
Jonn.
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fiveboys5, it looks like with everyone's contributions, you likely need to review your links for Joseph. It looks like the family from Langholm is not the correct family of Turnbulls for your Joseph. Conclusive proof really that it is not the right family, with the details posted by Jonn and fab3bird above.
Rosie has posted the census details from South Shields for 1901. Is this the correct family? 1881 census here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q271-ZQYH and 1891 here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WV19-VPZ In 1891, Joseph's birth places shows as N K (not known) supposed Scotland. 1911 as Rosie has mentioned, an Edinburgh birth place is given https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWCZ-8MN
What does it say on his marriage to Elizabeth (what was her maiden name? Possibly Lumsden or Smithwhite from an 1874 marriage entry in South Shields - likely Smithwhite from the details on the 1891 census) regarding his father?
Monica
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Monica he married Elizabeth Smithwhite :)
Rosie
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Thanks Rosie :)
Can't see much that fits back in Scotland in the earlier censuses. From 1871, for any Joseph Turnbull born in the 1850s in Scotland, we have:
Joseph aged 12, born in Glasgow, with parents Joseph and Elizabeth. Living in Glasgow.
Joseph aged 14, born in England, adopted by a Mary Davidson, living in Glasgow.
Joseph aged 14, born in Langholm, the son of Thomas and Ann discussed above.
Joseph aged 12, born in Morebattle, son of Jane (husband William), living in Channelkirk.
Couldn't see anything that would fit in England for him in 1871.
In 1861, same Josephs as above, except:
English born Joseph does not show.
A further Joseph born c.1850. Son of a Thomas and Helen. Born and living in Cavers.
Not much to work with really... :-\
Monica
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Thank you all so very much, I do have a Joseph Turnbull, My Nanna's Father who died about 1925 in South Shields. He did marry Elizabeth Smithwhite from South Shields. I have had other correspondence from someone via Ancestry today which near enough matches the information given by yourselves. I am sorry but it may appear my Son HAS got the wrong family. I feel embarrassed by it all as I have been chasing the wrong line via my Son. He cross matched everything and was convinced he was right. I am hoping to see a Cousin who has some family information but it might not be on the family I am looking for. My Uncle found the family but I was never told where? ROSIE was correct the family did live in Adelaide Street South Shields where I believe my Nanna was born. I have got the marriage certificate of Joseph's marriage to Elizabeth Smithwhite he was 19 and she was 21, his Father was Thomas(deceased) I have no Elderly relatives alive who can assist me and My son does not have the time to search the records again to see where he went wrong as I now believe he is. So that leaves me with a puzzle. Where was Joseph Born, where was Thomas Turnbull his Father from? I am truly stuck in moving on from my limited information. Thank you for your input, I am not experienced at all in searching records and the family tree online is administered by my Son.
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Don't be too embarrassed, I'm sure most of us have had a bad twig here and there, or been convinced of a birth/marriage/death and then been proven wrong, at least you found out rather than investing any more time in it! I'd like to believe that my tree is correct but who knows, maybe some time in the future I'll find out differently.
Sadly all part of doing family history ;D
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Hi fiveboys no need to apologise we all make mistakes better to find the right information ..One thing I did notice for Joseph he said birth place Edinburgh British Sub by parentage ???..
Rosie
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I have just this morning remembered being told when I was a young child, that Joseph was supposedly lost as a little boy and somehow if true he had climbed onto a cart and fell asleep? If what I have been told is true he could have been found and looked after by a woman somewhere in Scotland until his family were found. He next from what I can learn ended up in North Shields? he would have been in his teens. Marrying Elizabeth Smithwhite when he was 19 in South Shields. His marriage certificate says he was from Scotland? So all in all it is a huge mystery. My cousins and I were very young when we were told this and non of us can remember any exact details. None of what I have just said is provable as my Cousins would have all been told similar stories. Joseph died before my Mother was born so everything must have come from my Nanna. Could it be he was from a Gypsy family? I remember my Mother telling me his parents travelled around local villages and put on a travelling light/lantern show? She danced while Thomas? played an intrument of some sort I really cannot remember much at all but spoke to a Cousin who is my age and she seems to recall the story of him being lost and that the family had connections to Galshiels. My Nanna would have told my Mother and the rest of the family the story of her Father and my Aunts would have told their children my Cousins. I just wish I have something more concrete to work on.
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Very likely that Joseph had confused early years which is why you are having such a difficulty in finding his origins :-\
The best possibility may the Joseph who shows as the adopted son of Mary Davidson in 1871. He doesn't show in 1881 in Scotland I don't think. 1871 entry below:
Mary Davidson 42 charwoman
Alexander Davidson 8 son b. Glasgow
Joseph Turnbull 14 adopted son foundry boy b. England
Charles Oniel 13 adopted son foundry boy b. Glasgow
Address: 15 Brown Street, Glasgow/Milton
Most of the other Josephs can be eliminated over the years from the censuses in Scotland.
Other than deceased, was there no occupation showing for Joseph's father Thomas on his marriage cert?
Monica
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Monica I also wondered about that one being the adopted son in Glasgow
Rosie
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I am away from home at the moment and will not be back home until Monday for me to check the Marriage Certificate. But I am sure it just says Thomas deceased. It could well be my Joseph but I do not know. A cousin I rang this morning said that the family had links with Galashiels. How on earth could he have ended up in Glasgow. I have no one in my family who can tell us as our Nanna Died when we were young I was only four at the time. But If only the records my Uncle had had not been stolen along with the family bible I may have had something to go on. My husband just tonight said we should check the local paper archive for announcements of the forthcoming marriage of Joseph to Elizabeth, and also at the Church. Problem is the Church is unknown to me as it was just listed as a Catholic Chapel. But I was told my Nanna was baptised in the Church of England and was raised as such. This Catholic Chapel, is not know even by my husband who is a Catholic himself. A lot of Churches in South Shields have long since gone and some of the records have been sent to Durham Cathedral, according to my friends husband, but does that include Catholic and other denominations in the local area? We will pay a visit to our new local library who have records of Churches, Burial Grounds, along with lots of of other records like local census and streets etc. As it is newly opened I will have to find out who can help us look for the right records. In the meanwhile I will certainly look into the information you have given me and see what comes of it. Thank you.
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Yes have another look at the certificate to see what it says for his father ..That is only a possibility for Joseph in the census for Glasgow in 1871 ..as there seems to be some confusion where he was born
Rosie
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I have now checked the Marriage Certificate Joseph Turnbull married Elizabeth Smithwhite on 13th August 1874. He was 19 and she was 21. His occupation if I am reading it correctly is a Labourer. His Father is listed as Thomas (Deceased) and is a Labourer.
I can see where my Son went wrong. But try as I might I cannot find a single piece of information linking Joseph to Thomas and his place of Birth. My husband is going to join another Ancestry site and see what we can find. My son is coming in the morning but I doubt he will have time to look.
I am so frustrated and so sorry I have given out the wrong information and wasted everyone's time. I am so grateful for all your kind suggestions. Not being at all experienced in looking for information I left it all to my Son. I really do not know where to begin and where I look, following links on Ancestry leads me up the wrong path.
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Don't feel bad we all make mistakes the problem you have is not having enough information ...Better finding out now .
Rosie
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I think we are all just sorry we can't find anything further for you at this stage :-\
You are with kindred souls here! We have all became frustrated at various times in our own research and made wrong turns along the way. All part of the learning process really ;)
Monica