RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: Dave106 on Wednesday 16 November 16 01:29 GMT (UK)
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I noticed a posting by "monks09" offering to search local cemeteries near Doune.
If this person or some one else desires to help me, I would appreciate the effort.
Also there are two buildings in Doune that I would like clarification on - one being a location known as "Stewart's Ld" in the 1841 census.
Looking forward to hearing from some one.
Any assistance is welcomed.
Thanks
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Hi Dave106 , welcome to RC
I think this is the topic started by monks09(now monks13).
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=376864.0
It's 2 years since monks13 has been online , perhaps someone else may be able to help.
ev
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Hi ev:
Thanks for adding Perthshire - I realized after the posting, that would be useful.
I am searching for information about William Anderson b. abt 1813 and d. before 24 Mar 1846.
I believe he was living in Doune, Perthshire in or before 1846.
His spouse is Janet "Stewart" Anderson who I have found in census records to 1881, and living on Main Street in Doune. I have no info on her death.
I am thinking the only way I might further my knowledge is to find a grave marker that may give basic details. I do not have plans to travel to Scotland.
Dave from Canada
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Also there are two buildings in Doune that I would like clarification on - one being a location known as "Stewart's Ld" in the 1841 census.
"Stewart's Ld" would be Stewart's Land. A lot of buildings in the 19th and 20th century were named after the owner and called "land", i.e. Ross's Land, Stewart's Land.
Tom
PS Just had a Google at Stewart's Land in Doune, and these may be different to my first reply. They may have been given by the Stewarts, i.e. James VI. See the following link,
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ivb/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ivb/)
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Thanks Tom:
The land grant record sort of leaves a lot of possible locations for "Stewarts Land", doesn't it.
I am thinking it is near Doune and this is what I am hoping to get clarification on.
However, maybe this is not going to be possible and, in the whole scheme of things, it does not really matter.
Thanks for your interest.
Dave
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I am interested to find the history of a building on Main Street West (south side) in Doune, Perthshire that was a grocery store in 1851, operated by Janet Anderson, and had accommodation on the upper floor(s).
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Hi Dave,
I have read it on Ancestry, it just says Main Street, whether the Scotland People website entry gives you more info, is something you may have to check out. I checked out Wills in Perthshire, sometimes they give addresses, but no luck.
Tom
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Thanks Tom
When I first found the census record on Ancestry, I could view the original record, but now that option is not available to me.
I will check Scotland's People although I currently do not have credits.
Have I replied in the proper manner, to your latest information?
Dave
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Hi Dave,
Not sure what you mean, by replying in the proper manner. I think so, Dave.
Ancestry do not give actual Scottish certificates, they are only transcriptions, so do not know what original certificate you viewed.
Was Janet Anderson widowed? Do you have any more details?
Tom
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Tom
My correspondence is associated with Burials in Perthshire because initially I responded to a post by some one who seems not to participate any more - monks13.
We are now on a different topic and I do not understand how this site works.
To your question:
William Anderson and Janet Stewart are my ancestors.
Others, on this site and other sites, have been searching for our William with limited success. A William b. 1814 at Logie seems to be chosen as correct in a number of family trees. I do not believe this to be correct.
I understand that William was deceased when my great grandfather William Stewart Anderson was b. 24 mar 1846, based on information from a distant relative living in Scotland, who states this is on William's 1846 birth record.
It is fairly certain that Janet Anderson, a grocer in Doune in 1851, Census is my ancestor - actually pretty much 100 per cent, based on her fathers will.
Subsequent census in 1861, 1871, 1881 and 1891 indicates she lived at the same location in Doune and I am looking for proof that this is correct. Knowing the address would satisfy my mind that I have the correct documents.
I also think her sister Ann lived at the same address in 1881 but, again with out an address, this is difficult to confirm.
Monks13 was offering to search cemeteries near Doune, which is possibly the only way I will further my findings for William Anderson and Janet Stewart.
If you have a better option, I am happy to learn.
Dave
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Hi Dave,
I understand what you mean by replying in the proper manner, I have asked moderator to move your posts on this topic to a new post, so we can get all the information on your search in the correct place.
Will have another look at your last reply tomorrow, as it is 1:33 a.m. now.
Tom
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Thanks
Dave
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William Anderson and Janet Stewart are my ancestors.
It is fairly certain that Janet Anderson, a grocer in Doune in 1851, Census is my ancestor - actually pretty much 100 per cent, based on her fathers will.
Subsequent census in 1861, 1871, 1881 and 1891 indicates she lived at the same location in Doune and I am looking for proof that this is correct. Knowing the address would satisfy my mind that I have the correct documents.
I also think her sister Ann lived at the same address in 1881 but, again with out an address, this is difficult to confirm.
Hi Dave,
It is difficult to confirm until you see the actual census record which is only available at SP as the rest are only transcriptions.
The original will have an address unless it's the name of a building which didn't have a no. as such, only a name.
Have you tried freecen, I haven't checked but they are far better than 'fancestry' or
'blindmypast' both of which are notorious for transcription errors.
Annie
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To your question:
William Anderson and Janet Stewart are my ancestors.
Others, on this site and other sites, have been searching for our William with limited success. A William b. 1814 at Logie seems to be chosen as correct in a number of family trees. I do not believe this to be correct.
I understand that William was deceased when my great grandfather William Stewart Anderson was b. 24 mar 1846, based on information from a distant relative living in Scotland, who states this is on William's 1846 birth record.
It is fairly certain that Janet Anderson, a grocer in Doune in 1851, Census is my ancestor - actually pretty much 100 per cent, based on her fathers will.
Subsequent census in 1861, 1871, 1881 and 1891 indicates she lived at the same location in Doune and I am looking for proof that this is correct. Knowing the address would satisfy my mind that I have the correct documents.
I also think her sister Ann lived at the same address in 1881 but, again with out an address, this is difficult to confirm.
Monks13 was offering to search cemeteries near Doune, which is possibly the only way I will further my findings for William Anderson and Janet Stewart.
If you have a better option, I am happy to learn.
Dave
Hi Dave,
What does the will say, what are the dates of the father William Anderson dying, and what court was it held in. Do you have a copy of the OPR for William Stewart Anderson, your GGF, on SP website, I see the OPR you mention, but it only states William Anderson, no middle name.
We may have to back to your GF details and check from there again.As you are probably aware Official Registration did not start until 1855, and prior to that only OPR(Old Parish Records of the church) were available. So many baptisms were registered with parents names but sometimes only a single Christian name, I have seen most as single names, and only seen a few that had middle names on.
Do you have your GGF marriage records, if Scottish, the record would give you parents names and occupation, and whether deceased. This would help to prove you are on correct path.
So I am not saying what you have already is incorrect, but it is not proven correct so far. I worry when I see "fairly certain" in a post, it usually means it is doubtful. Sorry but I am "Doubting" by name and nature.
Tom (Doubting Thomas)
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Hi Annie:
Thanks for your info.
I did not know SP has different data than other sites.
I have used this site in the past but currently do not have credits - I will consider.
I am a member of Ancestry until the end of this year and I will not renew.
I have in the past obtained considerable data from FamilySearch.
I have never heard of freesen.
Refer to my response to tidybooks if you will.
Dave
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Hi Tom:
So far the information forthcoming is frustrating to me and not what I expected or hoped for, but fitting to the dead ends I have found on previous endeavours in the search for my William Anderson, who we think was born 1813. Yes, I have done lots of searching for my ancestors and have a well established family tree. No, I do not consider myself an expert by any means, so maybe this site is not for me.
William Anderson and Janet Stewart are my ancestors - no question.
Yes, the marriage certificate for William Stewart Anderson states his parents are William Anderson and Janet Stewart.
William Stewart Anderson is my ancestor - no question, and with a middle name.
We do not know when William Sr. was born, other than maybe 1813, OR when he died, other than we know he died before William Jr. was born. Theoretically, this puts his death between June 24, 1845 and March 24, 1846.
There are no apparent death records for either William Sr. or for Janet "Stewart" Anderson, his wife.
My initial correspondence to this site was in response to a person stating he would search local cemeteries for persons living overseas.
In my opinion, the only way forward is to try and locate a grave marker that might shed some light on their life. I guess I was overly optimistic when I accidently came across the post by monks13.
The will for Janet Stewart's father does state Janet is a grocer in Doune and she is a widow. And it also mentions William Jr.
I am disappointed you doubt this, but I will admit my wording was not as positive as I had ment it to be.
Two persons have now advised that SP records are more informative than other sites.
I will think about going on their site and seeing what is applicable.
I am a registered member and have used this site in the past but currently do not have credits.
In the mean time, if some one wants to search cemeteries near Doune for William and Janet or find an 1851 grocery store on Main Street in Doune, this may be helpful to me.
Regards,
Dave
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Hi Dave,
I am not an expert and I am not trying to denigrate your tree or records. I am trying to get the definite then to try and breakdown the brick walls that you are finding.
If you go on SP without credits, there is a new format, only about 4 weeks old, you can get a lot of info without paying for the credits.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ixf/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ixf/)
Click on this link, and your William (Stewart) Anderson is third one down. You can spend 6 credits to get same information as you know, so will not get much more other than confirmation of your records.
LDS records I use a lot because it is free, but a lot of their records come from their members family trees, and should not be used to confirm records but as a guide, if I cannot confirm with a SP certificate, it is still in pencil, it can be erased.
Hope this helps you understand my comments a bit better, I do not wish to upset you or tell you that your records are wrong.
Tom
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Hi Annie:
I quickly checked on Freecen and did not find applicable records for William.
I will look again later, as I did not give it a good search the first time.
Thanks for the info.
Dave
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Hi Tom:
I checked on Scotlands People and see the record for William, as you have indicated.
I will do further searching later.
Thanks,
Dave
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Hi Dave,
Good hunting!
Tom
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Hi Tom:
Hunting was not productive!
I purchased credits at Scotlands People and looked at marriage records for William Anderson and Janet Stewart. Same information that I already have.
I can not see a death record for either William or Janet, that apply.
Death records for Janet's parents are both shown - I did not pay to see details.
I could not find any census records for Janet and do not know why.
From previous sources I have census records 1851 to 1891 for Janet who I am "fairly certain" is my Janet - remember I wanted to find an address on Main Street Doune to see if that helps.
Any idea why William and Janet are AWOL?
Also spent some time on FreeCEN and did not find any thing applicable.
This conversation is open to any other member who wishes to comment.
Thanks,
Dave
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Hi Dave,
I think that the following link is the 1851 entry, Janet is the head of the family, I suspect that William died prior to his son's birth. http://www.rootschat.com/links/01iz4/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01iz4/) . She is a grocer and is in Main Street.
I think the 1861 she is down as Ann(maybe sounded like "Jan" as there were 2 Janets in the house),
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01iz5/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01iz5/). Even RootsChat has suggested this Janet.
Will go and search for some more.
Tom
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Hi Dave,
Got a few ideas about 1871, but not definite. For 1881, I fancy the following link,
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01iz6/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01iz6/)
Janet's children have flown the nest so she now takes in lodgers.
Tom
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When I first found the census record on Ancestry, I could view the original record, but now that option is not available to me.
I will check Scotland's People although I currently do not have credits.
Hi Dave,
There is no other site than SP to view their original documents unless someone had uploaded it to 'Fancestry'?
Annie
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Hi Annie:
I did not know SP has different data than other sites.
I have used this site in the past but currently do not have credits - I will consider.
Dave
Hi Dave,
No.... ;D, it's the other sites which have different data as SP hold the originals.
I may have missed any mention of a daughter Janet to Janet & William who is listed on 1851?
Janet Anderson 37
Birth year: abt 1814
Born Dunblane, Perth
Parish Number 362
Civil Parish Kilmadock
Town Doune
County Perthshire
Occupation Grocer
ED 6
Page: 3
Schedule number 14
Line 15
Roll CSSCT1851_76
Household Members
Janet Anderson 37 Head b Dunblane, Perth
Janet Anderson 9 Dau b Doune, Perth
William Anderson 5 Son b Doune, Perth
Original will give address
Annie
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Hi Annie and Tom:
I have the 1851 census info as you have sent to me Annie - a transcript, not an original.
My records were first obtained from FamilySearch LDS Site and second from Ancestry Site, dating back a few years.
Children of William Anderson and Janet Stewart:
Janet b. 11 July 1841.
William b. 24 March 1846 - my great grand father.
Ann b. 29 October 1839, registered as being with her grand parents at the 1851 census.
Those grand parents are Janet's parents - John Stewart and Ann Innes , farmers near Dunblane.
As mentioned to Tom, I can not find any census records on SP - I will try again later.
Tom, your links are to Ancestry.uk and my subscription is with Ancestry.ca, so I could not make the quick connection, unless I am missing some way to do this. I am older than you Tom and sometimes not so quick on computers!
Yes, the 1861 census has Ann and Janet interchanged.
I suggested this correction to Ancestry.ca and I believe it is recorded there.
From my copies of the census - as you noted Tom, the 1871 census shows Janet with boarders.
It also shows a grand child Ann Gray, age 3, which fits this family.
The 1881 census shows Janet again with boarders.
The 1891 census shows Janet, still on Main Street and Supported by Family.
In another 1881 census, Ann Gow, Janet's sister, is shown as having a butcher shop on Main Street, Doune and I would hazard a guess it may be the same address as other census' for Janet - something I am trying to find out.
Thanks,
Dave
PS - is this appropriate to reply to both of you in same post?
Also, I received notification on my e-mail for the post by Annie, but no notification for yours Tom - do I need to set some parameters on my profile?
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Hi Dave,
I think you may have set up your personal settings differently to mine, to check, follow my instructions please.
Go to PROFILE on the top bar.
Select 'Modify Profile' in blue above your name on the left.
Select 'Email notifications' from the pull down menu.
I have the first two ticked ie 'receive forum newsletters' and 'turn email notification on'.
For the next two, from the pull down options, I have selected 'instantly' and 'replies and moderation'
And then click on 'Save settings' on the right just below these four selections.
I think you may have set up as 'instantly but only for the first reply'
Tom
PS I don't mind being addressed at same time as others.
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Hi Dave,
As mentioned to Tom, I can not find any census records on SP - I will try again later.
Tom, your links are to Ancestry.uk and my subscription is with Ancestry.ca, so I could not make the quick connection, unless I am missing some way to do this. I am older than you Tom and sometimes not so quick on computers!
Do you mean you cannot find Census records on SP? This is what I do in the new format of SP.
I input surname - Anderson and first name - Janet, and do not input anything else. I then apply search and get 23,418 replies in 5 categories. By moving down the left hand side you see all the Census in Chronological order, I selected 1851, which has 1146 records. I then select the 1851 census by clicking the 1146 records. I then set filters to take the 1146 down to a manageable level, I select Perth as 'County' and Kilmadock as 'District', these filters take it down to 6 entries. The 2 entries that we are interested in is Ref 326/ 6/ 3, which is Janet the mother and daughter.
I hope this helps you,
Tom
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Hi Tom:
Adjusted my Profile - however, your latest post was shown in my e-mail - do not know what happened yesterday.
Found the SP census record for Janet Anderson and looked at both 1851 and 1871.
Unfortunately it is the same info I already have.
Went to 1871 because that one states "Main Street West South Side" - again no building #.
Interesting - 20 people and 2 houses, if I read it correctly.
There are some Stewart's listed, but the head of that house is not shown on the page I read, not that that would likely help me.
Still think the only way forward is to find a grave marker.
What is your interest in the Stewart name?
Dave
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Hi Dave,
My maternal grandmother was a Stewart, she was the youngest of a family of 10 children. born mostly in East Lothian but some in West Lothian.
My 4xGGF John Stewart born 1777 in Forfar, Angus may have married a Kilmadock woman, Agnes Sommers, but I have not been able to verify this, so only in tree in pencil.
Tom
PS I have found this marriage of John Stewart to Agnes Summers at Craig by Montrose, Angus on 1st April 1796.
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Hi Dave
I know Monks IRL and he is a contact on FB. I will ask him to check this thread and reply.
Your Stewarts are almost certainly descended from the "Stewarts of Balquihidder".
I have 6 separate Stewart lines from there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stewart_of_Balquhidder
I am a member of the research group. There is a link to the website on that Wiki page.
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Children of William Anderson and Janet Stewart:
Janet b. 11 July 1841.
William b. 24 March 1846 - my great grand father.
Ann b. 29 October 1839, registered as being with her grand parents at the 1851 census.
Those grand parents are Janet's parents - John Stewart and Ann Innes , farmers near Dunblane.
From my copies of the census - as you noted Tom, the 1871 census shows Janet with boarders.
It also shows a grand child Ann Gray, age 3, which fits this family.
The 1881 census shows Janet again with boarders.
The 1891 census shows Janet, still on Main Street and Supported by Family.
In another 1881 census, Ann Gow, Janet's sister, is shown as having a butcher shop on Main Street, Doune and I would hazard a guess it may be the same address as other census' for Janet - something I am trying to find out.
Thanks,
Dave
Hi Dave,
Can you clarify the meaning above of 'with boarders' please?
Is Janet/Ann living with other boarders in someone else's accommodation or does she take in boarders at her own address?
Valuation Rolls;
Originals 2 credits on SP & gives further info. although you will get a list of many per page if you check ref. no's so as not to buy duplicates?
ANDERSON
MRS
Tenant
HOUSE AND SHOP
DOUNE
KILMADOCK
1855
VR011300001-
ANDERSON
JANET
MRS
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE AND GARDEN SOUTH SIDE GOING EAST
KILMADOCK
1875
VR011300021-
STEWART
JOHN (Father)?
Proprietor Occupier
HOUSE SHOP BYRE KILLING HOUSE AND GARDEN DOUNE MAIN STREET NORTH SIDE GOING WEST
KILMADOCK
1875
VR011300021-
GOW
JANET
Tenant Occupier
DRUMVAICH COTTARIE
KILMADOCK
1875
VR011300021-
ANDERSON
JANET
MRS
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE AND GARDEN MAIN STREET SOUTH SIDE
KILMADOCK
1885
VR011300031-
GOW
JAMES
Proprietor
HOUSE STABLE OUT HOUSE AND GARDEN MAIN STREET SOUTH SIDE
KILMADOCK
1885
VR011300031-
GOW
MRS
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE AND GARDEN MAIN STREET SOUTH SIDE
KILMADOCK
1885
VR011300031-
STEWART
JOHN (Father)?
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE MAIN STREET SOUTH SIDE
KILMADOCK
1895
VR011300041-
ANDERSON
DAVID (Relation)? Seems to own another property?
Proprietor
HOUSE MAIN STREET SOUTH SIDE
KILMADOCK
1905
VR011300051-
Links on above with different names but same addresses?
Not sure of dates in your info?
When did Father die?
When did Janet/Ann die?
Have you considered that Janet/Ann may have remarried?
Hope above helps a bit?
Annie
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Hi vair:
I am very excited to hear from you.
I was thinking of advising the moderator to check my posting as complete, as I assumed no further info would come from it. Patience is a virtue. Again, I optimistically see favourable results possible.
I am a descendant of the Stewarts of Balquihidder - specifically Stewarts of Annat.
I refer to the web site from time to time and looking today, as a result of your message, it appears to be a little different layout, so I will spend some time there in the near future.
I spent a few years, fairly casually, developing my family tree for my Canadian ancestors and relatives. When I started searching outside Canada, and for my Scottish relatives, I very quickly found Ryk Brown and he freely and graciously introduced me to the vast amount of information he and his team has established.
I have referred to Malcolm Gray's personal tree many times. Unfortunately, about the time I decided it was time I thanked Malcolm, I found out he had passed away.
I hope I hear from Monks.
Whether Monks helps me or not, it is his post that brought me to this site.
Thanks,
Dave
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Hi Annie:
This is a quick reply because I want to take some time to fully answer you questions.
The "Head of House" in every census from 1851 to 1891 appears to be Janet Anderson.
One census record shows Ann as Head and Janet as daughter - the ages indicate an entry error.
The location is always just Main Street and looking on the actual SP census record, I do not find an actual house number.
I checked on the SP Valuation Rolls and only found the 1885 record for James Gow, non for Janet Anderson. Not sure why you have it and I did not find it.
Janet's father, John Stewart died 1858.
His will mentioned a house in Doune rented to two men.
There is no reference to the store and living quarters.
If the 1851 to 1891 census records are, in fact, referring to the same Janet Anderson, then I have to conclude she did not re-marry. I have thought about this, because Janet was not very old when William died. The census records indicate she did not re-marry. This is still something to prove.
I have checked SP records from 1891 onward and only see one death record for Janet Anderson, which does not appear to fit.
I will respond to your message in a little more detail tomorrow.
Thanks,
Dave
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If it helps, for the Valuation Rolls, I did not put in a forename only surname for each as the index is free so nothing to lose & only trying to help as I have no real info. in front of me, only what you have written.
The no. accompanying each one I posted is the ref. for that entry.
Annie
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Hi Annie:
Clarify the meaning of "with boarders":
1871 census states Janet's occupation is "letting rooms" but no renters are noted.
1881 census states Janet's occupation is "lodging house keeper" with three renters noted.
Does Janet take boarders at her own address:
I believe this to be correct.
Your latest information suggests Janet did not own the building.
Did Janet re-marry:
1851 census and 1871 census state Janet is a widow.
As I stated earlier, I conclude Janet did not re-marry.
The 1871 census has grand daughter Anne Gray with Janet.
In my opinion, this fact strongly suggests (I will even say confirms) I am correct in thinking the Janet in all census records is, in fact, my Janet.
BUT an address would help.
John Stewart, proprietor in 1875 is not Janet's father.
I do not know if he is related.
The building appears to be on the opposite side of the street.
Janet Gow, tenant in 1875 - does not fit James and Ann Gow's family, as I see it.
I will try and find siblings of James Gow.
James Gow, proprietor 1885.
Maybe James has always owned the building and Janet lived in the building??
John Stewart in 1895 - not a close relative that I am aware of, but Janet did have many relatives in the area.
By 1895, I believe James and Ann are living in Port of Menteith.
I have no idea where Janet Anderson is at this time. If alive she would be 81 years.
David Anderson in 1905 - first David I have come across in Doune. Intrigues me!
Some time ago I looked up Google maps for Main Street, Doune.
In the vicinity where I assume the store and living quarters would be, there are two and three story buildings. I have typically thought Janet had a store on the main floor and lived above. But maybe the buildings I saw are not 19 century buildings.
The Town of Doune web site states there are volunteers who will look up information.
I have tried to contact the Town a couple of times and did not receive a reply. I can see that they do not have time to help every person like myself, but I have to wonder why they advertise this.
There is an interesting shop with hotel on upper floors, in the vicinity my Janet may have lived.
I e-mailed each, asking if they knew any thing about the history of their building and again no reply.
If I book a room at the hotel, I guess I would get a reply.
I do not think I have helped much with this.
I do not know what other information to offer.
I will go back to the Valuation Rolls and do more looking.
Did you pay credits to view the Valuation Rolls?
Thanks again,
Dave
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Hello All and a Merry Christmas.
Haven't been on for a while due to work, family and other commitments. Things getting a bit quieter so hopefully will be able to help with enquiries after the New Year.
Kenny
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Hi Kenny:
Wishing you a good holiday season.
I entered this rootschat site because of a posting by you offering to search cemeteries near Doune.
I am hoping you will take some time to try and help me find information on two of my ancestors.
A couple of others have responded, on this site, and their assistance has been quite helpful and has opened some new doors for me. However, I am still missing some key details.
If you are willing to help with my search, let me know when you have available time and I will forward you some details.
Thanks for your interest.
Dave from Canada
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Hi Tom:
Wishing you a good holiday season.
I have thought a bit about my William Stewart Anderson with a middle name.
The middle name seems to have started showing up in the 1901 census records of Canada.
The family bible, which I believe is about 100 years old, has his full name recorded.
And his grave marker has his full name.
So maybe he "adopted" a middle name later in life.
All of his children have middle names.
Which leads to a question, to you, regarding his first born son William James.
Based on the Scottish naming patterns, and variations, who might be a candidate for the James part? Might an uncle fit the pattern?
Thanks,
Dave
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Hi Annie:
Wishing you a good holiday season.
I have not had much time lately for ancestors.
But your list of persons from the Valuation Rolls has me interested in following up.
Thanks,
Dave
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I have thought a bit about my William Stewart Anderson with a middle name.
The middle name seems to have started showing up in the 1901 census records of Canada.
The family bible, which I believe is about 100 years old, has his full name recorded.
And his grave marker has his full name.
So maybe he "adopted" a middle name later in life.
All of his children have middle names.
Which leads to a question, to you, regarding his first born son William James.
Based on the Scottish naming patterns, and variations, who might be a candidate for the James part? Might an uncle fit the pattern?
Hi Dave,
Compliments of the season to you and your family.
Usually the "Scottish Naming Pattern" is based on the first or christian names, however have seen the 4th son being allocated an uncle's name, but the pattern is not rigidly followed, there are exceptions. Some people have used the mother's maiden name, or grandmother's surname as a middle name. Could the "James" be the mother's father first name? Sorry cannot be more helpful, I use the naming pattern a lot to get ideas of parent's names etc, but not 100% accurate.
Tom
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Hi Tom:
Re: "James"
There is a James Anderson and family living in Doune for the 1851 census.
For some time now I have been trying to connect this family with my William.
I have found an inviting connection but can not substantiate it.
The connection shows a James b. 1811 and William b. 1813, with parents James and Margaret.
My thinking on the James part is - if this is William Senior's brother, and William Sr. has died by 1846, maybe this Uncle James was a sort of a father figure to William Jr. b. 1846. Because of this relationship, William Jr. may have wanted to use William (after his father) and James (as a father figure) for naming his first son.
William Sr. and Janet Stewart seem to have used the traditional naming pattern for the two daughters, Ann and Janet. William Jr. may well have been named after William Senior's father, as some family trees are using. But I also believe he may have been named after his father to honour his dead father.
As I read the above, it seems confusing to follow - hopefully not to you.
Does the above analysis seem worth holding on to?
Dave
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Hi Dave,
Seasons Greetings!
Just to say I only checked the Index for the Valuation Rolls, I didn't view them, it was just a pointer for you.
Annie
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Hi Annie:
I found the Valuation Rolls on Ancestry.
They were difficult to understand.
And no addresses seem to be recorded.
However, it would appear that Janet Anderson did not own the building.
In 1855 it seems the building was owned by John Murdock - could well be a relative.
There is also reference to Robert Graham, a grocer, owning one or more buildings.
The name Graham shows up in my grandfathers siblings, so maybe this is a relative and maybe Janet worked in his store. Still more questions than answers!
Thanks for keeping me in mind.
Dave
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Hi Dave.
I can't find any Record of William or Janet being buried in any of the local graveyards.
Also can't find any trace of Stewart's land in Kilmadock Parish. I don't know if this would be a small privately owned piece of land as Kilmadock is within the area of 4 estates. Moray,Lanrick,Keir,Blairdrummond. Doune village came under Moray , Deanston village was owned by Finlay&Co who owned the Cotton Mill there. I will keep looking though.
Kenny.
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Don't know what I was thinking LOL. I never checked for any other Anderson's buried .
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Hi Kenny:
Thanks for your interest.
Sorry, I did not see your first reply until now.
William Anderson - research to date indicates possible birth 1810 to 1815.
"Researchers" have picked 29 Aug 1814 at Logie as his birth date, but there is conflicting data.
A William b. 01 Jan 1810 at Dunblane is intriguing, but no firm connection is established to date.
Death date calculated to be between June 1845 and March 1846.
I am thinking William was in Doune when he died, but no real proof.
You state there are no records for local cemeteries - assume you mean near Doune.
Maybe the following information will help.
Janet Stewart, William's wife, was born 23 March 1814 at Dunblane.
From census records I believe she lived in Doune 1851 to 1871 and possibly 1841 to 1891.
The only Janet Anderson death record I have found is for a Janet Anderson at Blackford, which currently I do not think fits - more later.
Janet Stewart's parents are John Stewart (1781 - 1858) and Ann Innes (1780 - 1860) and, according to records, buried at Kilbryde Dunblane Cemetery.
Janet's sister Ann Gow, according to records, is buried at Kilbryde Dunblane Cemetery.
Her husband is James Gow.
Janet's brother Alexander (1816 - c. 1846) was a minister at Dunblane and according to records is buried at the same cemetery. It seems feasible that Alexander could have conducted William's funeral service.
So maybe William and Janet Anderson are buried at Kilbryde Dunblane Cemetery.
The Janet Anderson who died at Blackford does not seem to match my Janet as the sister noted does not fit. However, there is a William Anderson b. 25 June 1815 at Blackford.
So burial at Blackford may be a "long shot" possibility for William and Janet.
I hope this information helps.
Again, thanks for your interest in helping me with my relatives.
I look forward to your response.
Dave
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Hi Dave
I got a William Anderson marrying Janet Stewart in Dunblane Parish 30th April 1839 ?
I know Kilbryde church and graveyard, just a couple of miles from where i live.
It lies just on the border of Dunblane and Kilmadock ( Doune) parish's.
If i can get a chance once we get a wee bit better weather i'll take a cycle out with my son.
Kenny
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Hi Dave,
"The Janet Anderson who died at Blackford does not seem to match my Janet as the sister noted does not fit."
Just curious as to why/reasons for a non fit?
Annie
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Hi Annie:
I can not find the supporting info, shown below, from a record on SP which I wrote down as:
Janet Anderson, Stirling St., Blackford d. 8 Dec 1897.
Margaret Anderson (sister) or Gilmour, wife of John Gilmour, coal merchant.
The record I saved on SP only shows death date and location.
Neither "Margaret" or "Gilmour" fit as far as I can see.
Maybe I am missing something.
Margaret Anderson would not be Janet's sister - maybe it was meant to be sister in law?
There is another Janet Anderson d. 12 Dec 1908 at Blackford, which I have not paid for details, but I guess I should, as no other Janet Andersons seem to be on record.
Thanks,
Dave
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Hi Kenny:
William Anderson m. Janet Stewart 30 April 1839 is the correct couple.
The record I have does not have parents noted.
I am so excited that you will take a look in Kilbryde Cemetery.
I have concluded, some time ago, that the only way forward is to locate a grave marker that will connect William and Janet and give us some dates to work with.
Either records no longer exist or I, and others, have not located applicable records.
No rush to search the cemetery.
In Winnipeg the last thing one would want to do is search through a cemetery.
We have about 3 feet of snow and rather cold these days.
Thanks again.
I look forward to your next reply.
Dave
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Annie:
I was not clear in my last reply.
Margaret Stewart is a sister to Janet.
She married a Laurie.
But Margaret Anderson does not fit and the Gilmour does not fit.
Unless Margaret Anderson Gilmour is William Anderson's sister.
Dave
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Annie:
I was not clear in my last reply.
Margaret Stewart is a sister to Janet.
She married a Laurie.
But Margaret Anderson does not fit and the Gilmour does not fit.
do you have anymore info on Margaret Stewart ?
Unless Margaret Anderson Gilmour is William Anderson's sister.
Dave
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Do you have anymore info on Margaret Stewart ?
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Margaret Stewart b. 15 Feb. 1816 in Dunblane, christened 3 Mar. 1816.
Father = John Stewart
Mother= Ann Innes
Margaret married Andrew Laurie, 20 Feb. 1845 in Dunblane.
I do not know what their occupation history is - I may have a record some where.
It seems in 1856 they lived in Wales - Barron Hill I believe.
They appear to have had 5 children.
John Stewart and his family lived on a farm at Glastry, Kilbryde, which I believe is not far from where you live. Please confirm.
When John died 1858, James Gow and daughter Ann Stewart were operating the farm.
I will look thru' my information to see if there is more to add for Margaret Stewart.
Dave
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Hi Dave
Managed to get out to Kilbryde today.
SACRED
TO THE MEMORY OF
JOHN STEWART GLASTRY
WHO DIED 4TH NOVEMBER 1858 AGE 77
ALSO ANNE INNES HIS WIFE
WHO DIED 27TH MARCH 1860 AGED 80
THIS STONE WAS ERECTED BY THEIR THREE
DAUGHTERS
JANET , MARGARET AND ANNE.
There was also another stone on right of this one.
ERECTED BY
JOHN STEWART
AND
ANNE INNES
GLASTRY
IN MEMORY OF THEIR SON
ALEX ? STEWART
MINISTER OF THE GOSPEL
WHO DIED 13 ? JUNE 1847
AGED 29? .
Stone was hard to read in some places.
Behind these stones was another but I could just make out the name which looked like another JOHN STEWART.
To the right of the first 2 stones are 2 stones to the INNES family with last burial I think 1958. The one to the right of that has the year 1774 on it.
There are still descendents of the INNES`s in Doune.
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I've looked for Glastry but can only find Nether Glastry and on an old map I found Upper Glastry but I think that is now a farm called Dalbrack.
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Thank you Kenny:
The grave marker stones are referencing the correct persons of my ancestors.
John Stewart and Anne Innes are correct.
Alexander Stewart 09 Jan. 1818 - 13 June 1847 is correct.
Anne Inne's grandfather is Colin Innes 1703 - 16 Jan. 1772, so probably not the one you found.
I have not recorded sibblings for many of my ancestors, so do not have info on the 1774 date.
Did you take any photo's?
I have a record showing Ann Stewart = Ann Gow and James Gow being buried at Kilbryde Cemetery.
I am still wondering if William Anderson and Janet Stewart may be buried there also.
If you could help me on this, I appreciate it - no rush.
As for Glastry, nothing to follow up, but for clarification and interest:
1841 census has John Stewart as farmer at Old Glastry.
1851 census has John Stewart as farmer of 80 acres at Glastry.
From what I see, the farm was part of Kilbryde Castle land and John was a tennant.
However, I think John was fairly well off, as per his will.
James Gow and Ann Gow took over the farm, in 1858 or earlier.
1861 census has James Gow as farmer of 200 acres at Nether Glastry.
1871 census has James Gow as farmer of 242 acres at Lower Glastry.
Assume the same 200 acres involved, but maybe not.
1881 census has James Gow a butcher in Doune.
1891 census has James Gow as farmer at Wester Tarr, Port of Monteith.
1895 land owners record has James at this farm and his death record refers to the same location.
Now, back to the search for William Anderson and Janet Stewart Anderson:
John Stewart's will refers to property on Main Street (south side) in Doune which I think may have been adjacent to the Manse for the Free Church in Doune. John gave money in his will to help pay the debt on the church. He also lent money to the Minister, Rev. Donald Ferguson. So I am wondering if William and Janet were also associated with the Free Church and may be buried in the associated cemetery.
I would appreciate help on this theory also, and again no rush - as meaning next week, next month or next summer - well I would be anxious if I did not hear from you again until summer!
And if the descendants of Innes's in Doune are interested in helping I would be very excited to hear from them. Actually, even if they do not have an interest in helping me, I would like to send them a note of introduction and see what comes of it.
I really appreciate your assistance and I am confident we will eventually locate William and Janet.
Thanks again.
Dave
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Hi Dave.
Unfortunately the cemetery at Kilbryde is small and not in great condition. A lot of the stones are either damaged or missing . But will try other sources .
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If the Free church manse is the one I'm thinking of , it is now a private house called Byre Hill, which is a 30 second walk from my house. It was Manse for East Church in Doune ( the one with the graveyard). My parents were married in the manse in 1942. Wester Tarr farm I think I know. I used to go with a girl who lived in Lower Tarr farm.
Likely that Gows May be buried in Thornhill ,parish of Norrieston .
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Hi Kenny:
I do not know where I got the term Manse from - I am thinking maybe the Valuation Rolls, which I no longer have access to.
Any way, the property in Doune belonging to John Stewart is complicated as described in his will and I believe a summary is:
- Dwelling house in the Mains of Doune on the south side of the street, given to John Stewart by John Henderson, who some how fits in to our family tree;
- Bounded on the west by the property of John King of Doune;
- Bounded in the south by a house rented to John Maxwell and William McLaren;
- Bounded on the east by a foot path or entry (I take this as meaning a legal right of way) to property belonging to Rev, Donald Ferguson, Rev. Thomas Hislop, John Murdock and Robert "Adair"? This property I have assumed to be the "manse"??
- There are others mentioned and I can not determine where they are in relation to John's house.
The will refers to Reverend Donald Ferguson, Minister of the Free Church of Scotland in Doune.
I have looked on Google Maps and can only guess where this building is.
Janet Anderson, John Stewart's daughter, is shown as living on Main Street, south side in several census'. I have always thought this was a different location than shown above, because I envision the building as having a store on the main floor and accommodation above. What I envision is similar to the present Buttercup Cafe with hotel rooms above. But as I try to decipher the will, I am wondering if the store was on the street and the accommodation was behind the store. This would mean Janet Anderson lived for years (1851 - 1891+) in property initially owned by her father.
Janet Anderson's property, in at least one census, refers to "Main Street, South side, West end".
I get confused looking for this location on Google Maps - I should not be confused as I am an Engineer! - so please help me. Would West end be toward the Cross I see in the middle of the intersection?
I hope this makes sense to you.
Thanks again,
Dave
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Hi Kenny:
On Google Street View, I see a church, with no obvious name, between King Street and Moray Street and there appears to be a cemetery behind the church. Is this the old Free Church building?
Across the street is a building named "Doune Time"- looks like 45 - 47 Main Street.
Is this location close to your reference to the old manse now the Byre Hill building?
Can you give me an address for Byre Hill house?
Trying to get a picture, in my mind, as to where the location of John Stewart's property may have been. Am I any where close?
Dave
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Yes that is the church Dave.
Main street starts from the cross and runs east through village ( main road to Dunblane A820) Byre Hill is on junctions of Queen Street and Main Street near to Castle road. I have pics of gravestones and can send to you if I can figure out how lol.
I work for Stirling Council Roads Maintenance Service and just been up past Kilbryde today. I think the reason I couldn't find Glastry is because it is now 2 private houses.
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Thanks Kenny
I will send you my e-mail in a private message to you - I think this is the correct procedure as I think public notification of e-mail is not accepted on this site.
I spent some time on google street level coverage of Doune.
There are several locations which may be the location of my ancestors shop and residence. The critical fact used is the existence of a path or right of way on the east side of the property. This assumes the current paths existed in 1850:
1. The current Woodlane Crafts. I guess this would satisfy the census record as being west end of Main Street.
2. Harvey Map Service has a lane on the east.
3. A building labeled Veterinary Surgery has a lane on the east.
4. The Doune Time building with Park Lane to the east.
The valuation records Annie sent me shows property owned by JohnStewart on the north side of Main Street.Going thru John Stewart's will again, I see reference to property on the north side of Main Street as well as the South side.
I am going to look at the property description in John Stewart's will again.
Measurements are given with a very detailed description, except I am having a problem getting it sorted out. Of course, the current buildings may not be same as 1850.
The will states that there is a building behind the street front building, that is attached and partly extends behind the building to the west.
The lot dimensions are noted, but I do not know where the measurements relate to.
Some how the property connects with that of Rev. Ferguson.
John Stewart lent Rev. Ferguson money to buy the property where he, the minister, lived and this property was east of John's property. Maybe it was John's property that he sold to Rev. Ferguson? If Byre Hill is this property, then it would appear the Doune Time building is a candidate.
However, the reference to being at the west end of Main Street makes the Woodlane Crafts building more likely.
Buildings 2 and 3 above do not seem to match the dimensions given, but maybe these buildings are divided inside, which is not obvious from the pictures on Google.
Your comments are welcome.
John acquired his property in 1803.
Do you know if the current buildings between Queen Street and The Cross date to 1803 or earlier?
Is the Free Church building still in use?
Do you know if women could hold titles to property, in the early 1800's?
Do you know the origin of Byre House?
The property on the north side of the street, belonging to John Stewart, is referenced in the 1875 valuations, as Byre Killing House, which I take as meaning a butcher shop.
I apologize for being rather lengthy in my information.
I am retired, and although I am fairly busy, I do have time to spend on this stuff!
I spent a good portion of my career as a design and construction engineer, with lots of work on roads, etc. so we have something in common.
Thanks again.
I am very appreciative of your effort to help me.
Dave
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Hi Kenny:
I see that Byre means barn. Initially I was thinking it was a surname.
I can not see that the "manse", now Byre Hill, is adjacent to John Stewart's property because this property is located in what would be the east end of Main Street.
The Doune records for listed buildings indicates the Manse was constructed in 1851. So I am thinking Rev. Ferguson may have lived near john's property prior to 1851.
Dave
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Woodlane Crafts was in my youth a Butcher shop and was owned by the Morrison family and where my brother started his apprenticeship as a butcher . I will check when I can on previous owners/uses .
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Hi Dave,
Have you tried the maps on;
http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/
or
http://maps.nls.uk/pont/modern-places/a-f.html
Sorry I'm not great with maps unless I know the area I'm searching i.e. can recognise place names etc.
Annie
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Thanks Annie:
Your information always challenges my thinking and opens my mind to other possibilities.
The "Scotland Places" 1860 records tell me a couple of applicable pieces of info.
First, Rev. Ferguson was with the North Free Church, located in the west end of Doune, constructed 1843.
Kenny - I believe this info rules out the Manse now Byre Hill.
Second, many properties (maybe most or all) in Doune were "owned" by Earl of Moray.
This leads me to think that my John Stewart did not own the property on Main Street, but had a formal right to use the property, or properties.
This may explain why John's will does not have a pound value on the property described in the will.
It may also explain why one property was given to John, "in trust" for daughters Margaret and Ann Henderson.
Kenny, this is why I asked you previously if women could own property.
Maybe the girls were under age to legally have the property.
According to John's will, this property eventually became that of Andrew Buchanan - how and why I do not know. Maybe thru marriage?
* if any one can explain howthe Earl of Moray's property was allocated in Doune, this would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for your help.
Dave
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The Earl didn't actually own the buildings but could collect Fue duty ( as sort of tax ) for the land the property sat on and he owned, Which most of if not all Doune sat on.
Over the years a few properties have disappeared but these were mostly old houses.
Most of main street as you see now is as it was in the 1800's with maybe the odd building having a second level put on.
The West Kirk ( church was converted into 2 houses in 1961.
Don't know why i didn't think about it before. Just phoned my mother in law.
The West church manse is Byre Hill, The East church manse lies just on the outskirts of the village on the main road to Stirling . a wee bit confusing lol
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Hi Kenny:
I have been assuming the South side of Main Street has odd numbers.
Today I have been reading the listed buildings descriptions and now believe the South side has even numbers.
The listing for 12, 14, 16 and Mile End caught my eye.
Actually the Mile End because that name is on the building, unless there is another Mile End.
Please confirm.
This listing also refers to an extensive rear wing, which would match how I read John Stewart's will.
What do you think?
Thanks,
Dave
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Kenny:
Following up on Valuation Rolls info from Annie, I found David Anderson as proprietor of two properties on Main Street south side, in 1905.
There is a David Anderson on property know as Cardona Estate of Gardincaber by Doune, from 1905 to 1930. Do you know this property?
I have some leads but nothing firm for relationship of the above David.
In 1875, Janet Gow was at Drumvaich Cottarie - are you familiar with this property?
Thanks,
Dave
PS. Are you interested in curling?
I watched the Scottish women's team curling in Banff this week end, on television.
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Hi Kenny:
How are you.
Have not heard from any one on this site in a while.
This is okay.
I have not been working on my ancestors research lately.
I hope you will take a look for my relatives if you happen to pass by a local cemetery during your summer travels.
Enjoy your summer.
Thanks,
Dave
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Hi y'all, John Stewart b.1777 Craig by Montrose & married to Agnes Sommers 1777 are my 3rd great grandparents. I've done the DNA at Ancestry. I'd love to fit these pieces together on this line. Are we related to the Stewart's of Balquidder? Well, if we are then let's connect it cuz we are certainly Not Quidders! Lol
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Hi Skyguy:
I have not been on this site for a long time.
I was surprised to see "Cemetery near Doune" near the top.
I am also surprised at how much detail I entered on this site and how much assistance I received.
As you can see, I have Stewart ancestors and they fit into "Stewarts of Annat".
My main focus is still finding out who William Anderson is, besides my great great grandfather.
I have DNA results from Ancestry and do not know much about using these results although I have viewed many "cousins", as provided by Ancestry, and none appear to relate to my Scottish ancestors.
If you want to see if we have common ancestors I am fine to proceed.
You can reply on this forum or send me a personal message.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Dave