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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: croz on Monday 28 November 16 23:11 GMT (UK)
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I originally posted this in December 2005 ...... unfortunately no information was forthcoming....worth another try.... ;)
Interested in any information about the Morland family of Fulham. My Great-Great Grandmother was Ann Selina Morland, born about 1820, married to John Limpus 20 June 1843 - St Mary Le Strand, Middlesex. Ann Selina was the daughter of John Morland, born 17 July 1775, died July 1845. At the time of Ann Selina's marriage, John Morland was a Sailor, and at some time an upholsterer or "upholder" of Parson's Green, Fulham. John Morland was the son of John Morland born 16 Sep 1739, Occupation Cabinet Maker and Upholsterer (Upholder) of Princes Street, Soho, London - died 1831, married to Margaret Hodgson. John Morland Snr was the son of Tillam Morland, born abt 1703 in Wensley, Yorkshire, but subsequently "of St James Piccadilly, London". Various family stories have it that Ann Selina Morland was from a "well to do" family - John Limpus being, we believe, a footman, possibly in service with the Morland household at the time of their marriage - with the address "Gardeners' Lane, Putney" - his occupation is shown on their marriage certificate as "footman". It seems that Ann Selina was "disowned" by the Morland family following her marriage to John Limpus. John and Ann Selina subsequently moved to Brighton where, at the time of the birth of their first child, James Dainty Limpus in 1848, John Limpus was a "servant". I'm particularly interested in any details of the Morland family in or around Fulham, Putney, Parson's Green ...if anyone has details....? There is no connection at all to the more famous and earlier Fulham resident Sir Samuel Morland as far as I know.
Thanks
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I originally posted this in December 2005 ...... unfortunately no information was forthcoming....worth another try.... ;)
Interested in any information about the Morland family of Fulham. My Great-Great Grandmother was Ann Selina Morland, born about 1820, married to John Limpus 20 June 1843 - St Mary Le Strand, Middlesex. Ann Selina was the daughter of John Morland, born 17 July 1775, died July 1845. At the time of Ann Selina's marriage, John Morland was a Sailor, and at some time an upholsterer or "upholder" of Parson's Green, Fulham. John Morland was the son of John Morland born 16 Sep 1739, Occupation Cabinet Maker and Upholsterer (Upholder) of Princes Street, Soho, London - died 1831, married to Margaret Hodgson. John Morland Snr was the son of Tillam Morland, born abt 1703 in Wensley, Yorkshire, but subsequently "of St James Piccadilly, London". Various family stories have it that Ann Selina Morland was from a "well to do" family - John Limpus being, we believe, a footman, possibly in service with the Morland household at the time of their marriage - with the address "Gardeners' Lane, Putney" - his occupation is shown on their marriage certificate as "footman". It seems that Ann Selina was "disowned" by the Morland family following her marriage to John Limpus. John and Ann Selina subsequently moved to Brighton where, at the time of the birth of their first child, James Dainty Limpus in 1848, John Limpus was a "servant". I'm particularly interested in any details of the Morland family in or around Fulham, Putney, Parson's Green ...if anyone has details....? There is no connection at all to the more famous and earlier Fulham resident Sir Samuel Morland as far as I know.
Thanks
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Have you approached the Hammersmith & Fulham Archives to see if they have anything in their collections?
https://www.lbhf.gov.uk/libraries/archives-and-local-studies
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Thanks for the tip - I will give them a try.
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Ann Selina Limpus died 26 March 1862, late of Parson's Green, letters of administration granted to husband John Limpus, cowkeeper of Parson's Green.
Ref England and Wales Probate Calendar, Probate index of wills and admins 1858-1966
ADDED
John Morland, upholder of Princes Street wrote his will October 1793 probate 31 May 1799, wife Margaret, son John, brother in law James Hodgson. So his wife's maiden name was Hodgson.
London Lives 1620-1800,
Coroners Inquest into suspicious deaths The jury lists a Mr. John Morland of the carpet warehouse, Princes Street. 21 July 1798.
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1851, they are at Peterboro Lane Fulham, son John D age 3 born Brighton Sussex, son Morland age 11 months born Fulham. John Limpus senior dairyman employs 2
1861, at 2 Peterboro Row, John Limpus born Putney Surrey age 41 cowkeeper
1871 census 6 Peterboro Row-Dairy and has a sister Harriet Limpus single age 36 as housekeeper.
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Thanks for these. I had most of the census info but not the precise date of Ann Selina's death or reference to letters of administration. Just today I also discovered that her mother, Sarah Ann Morland (nee Ragless) was described in the 1861 census as an "Alms Woman" living in Mawby Buildings, Burlington Road, which I believe was the original site of Sir William Powell's Almshouses in Fulham, before they were rebuilt and re-sited in 1869. It seems that the reputed "well-to-do" status of the Morland family may have been somewhat reduced by the later years of the 1800s. Certainly her husband John (the Parson's Green mariner/sailor/upholsterer) Morland's father (John Morland 1739-1831) the Soho upholder and cabinet maker was of sufficient business stature to have made and supplied a secretary desk and stool" for George IV when he was Prince of Wales in 1784 ! I have a copy of his will and yes, his wife was Margaret Hodgson, of Preston. For some reason I had his date of death wrongly recorded as 1831.
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John Morland married Margaret Hodgson by license in Preston Lancashire 16 March 1773.
On the license he is described as being of Princes Street in the Parish of St James Middlesex Upholsterer.
The license was granted 13 March 1773.
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Margaret Morland will written 7 August 1812, as widow of Waltham mentions sons John and Henry and daughters Margaret and Cordelia. Will was proved 22 January 1831 by Cordelia Morland spinster and daughter.
This is the wife of John Morland that died 1799.
So children Mary 1774, Thomas 1776, James 1778, Charles 1779 either did not survive until 1812 or had previously been taken care of.
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Thanks again ... I had the Preston marriage details from the Lancashire record office but I wasn't aware of Margaret Morland's will (I had mis-transposed her 1831 date of death onto my John Morland record). The widow "of Waltham" reference is intriguing as I had always assumed the family were settled either in (central) London (Westminster, Piccadilly etc) or Fulham/Parson's Green (the next generation). I wonder where this particular "Waltham" was .....
John Morland 1775-1845 is another slight enigma....certainly a Sailor or Mariner as recorded on daughters Ann Selina and Margaret marriage certificates in 1843 and 1844 but recorded as "upholsterer" of Parson's Green in the 1841 census. His wife's 1866 death certificate describes her as "mariner's widow" ..... hard to believe he became a "mariner" AFTER 1841, when he would by my reckoning have been aged 66 ...!
Aways more to investigate !
Thanks again for your help and interest.
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In 1841 the John Morland and the Sarah Morland are on the same page in Fulham but not together, John 65 Upholsterer is in a household on his own, then George Keel and wife Emma and family, then Sarah Morland 60 with Jane Matthews 40.
Seems to me that the John Morlands have been confused.
Margaret Morland was of Waltham Green re 1831 will.
Daughter Cordelia was the executrix and when she died her estate was worth under 4000 pounds, even so a lot of money in those days.
Cordelia died 19 June 1864 will proved 11 September 1865.
Formerly of Marlborough Wiltshire now of 7 Queens Terrace Hammersmith.
It would be worth getting a copy as she died a spinster family relationships will be mentioned.
1861 Cordelia Morland is 79 years old and blind listed as an Aunt living with Cordelia Faulkner 52 spinster plus others at 2 Queens Terrace Hammersmith.
It stand to reason that her sister Margaret married John Faulkner 1802, what puzzled me is that Margaret senior the mother 1831 referred to her as daughter Margaret not as my daughter Margaret wife of John Faulkner when she wrote he will in 1812, but maybe its just an anomaly.
If the Sarah Morland living in the alms houses was the wife of John why didn't the rest of the family
help her out or take her in as was done with Cordelia, besides that Sarah 1851, 1861 says she was born Sussex not Middlesex.
ADDED as per your comment that Sarah was the wife of a mariner, so definitely the wrong Sarah.
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If you have access to ancestry, read the will of John Faulkner written 22 January 1850 proved 20 September 1854, he was of Fulham a builder and had many many properties some in Waltham Green, so perhaps that's why his mother in law Margaret Morland was in Waltham Green 1831 when she died.
The will mentions daughters Cordelia, Emma Jane, Sophia who get the bulk of his estate daughter Charlotte and son (Frederic?)
No wife mentioned so Margaret nee Morland died previous.
No mention of Matthew their brother age 39 living with them 1861.
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Who are the witnesses to the marriage of John Limpus and Ann Morland 1843 as you have the certificate.
Added
The witnesses may help with the following message
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Question
Margaret Morland married Thomas Thorne 6 March 1844, her father John Morland/ mariner.His father Samuel Thorne/ coach painter
he witnesses are Samuel Thorne and Ann Selina Morland.
So if her sister Ann Selina Morland married John Limpus 1843 why does she sign her name Ann Selina Morland it should be Ann Selina Limpus.
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Good question and that has been noticed by others.....no obvious explanation....marriage to John Limpus is confirmed as 1843, I have the certificate......and that marriage was, according to family tradition, shared by other lines, the reason for Ann Selina being "disowned"....with John Limpus being described by some as "gardener on the Morland estate" (although no evidence of any "estate" seems to exist....and I think the gardener assumption comes from his address...Gardeners Lane Putney) or more accurately, as shown on the marriage cert "Footman". His father was, however, as shown on the cert Charles Limpus .."gardener". There is no evidence they eloped or married in secret and the wedding was in church (St Mary Le Strand, Middlesex) after banns. Neither witness was a Morland, which may or may not be significant as I am aware that marriage witnesses were often church "employees" rather than family members ? Witnesses were James Limpus and Emily (in distinct but looks like "Samber"
James D Limpus birth cert 1848 shows mother as Ann Selina Limpus, formerly Morland and John Limpus occupation as servant..at this time they were living in Brighton.
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I see a couple of trees on Ancestry have Ann Selina's birth date as 4th June 1820.
Do you know how they came up with the exact date? The Fulham baptisms for that time aren't online anywhere, but I wonder if the original book is still being kept somewhere. It would be interesting to see what her father's occupation was at that time.
I believe it's possible to be a member of a livery company without actually working at that occupation. A Mariner seems a strange alternative though.
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I had her baptism (rather than birth) date as 4 June 1820 on an extensive (and pre-internet) family tree revised in 1990 (from an original produced in 1974) by a descendant (Brian Rollason) of Ann Selina Morland's sister, Margaret ELizabeth Morland, through her marriage to John Faulkner. Where the precise 4 June date came from I do not know .... it was this 1990 version tree that showed John Morland (Ann Selina's father) as "sailor then upholsterer" although the census and marriage cert information now available suggest that it should have been "upholsterer" (1841 census) then "sailor" (1843 and 1844 marriage certs).....although that now makes little sense given that a change in occupation ..and becoming a sailor or mariner between 1841 and 1843, at the age of 65 ...seems unlikely. There certainly was a John Morland, upholsterer, right age and location on the 1841 census.
Ann Selina Morland's signature witnessing her sister's marriage ( using her single name , rather than married name, Limpus) is perpetually intriguing...unless she was in some way "hiding" her marriage to John Limpus - eight months previously - from other family members (ie her parents....) ...given the story popular among other descendants that the relationship with the "footman" John Limpus was a cause of family concern....even though her wedding was in church (although neither witness was a Morland)..see previous posts ! Looking again at dates, I see John and Ann Selina Limpus had a first child, Emily Elizabeth, in 1844 (she died in infancy...the same year, although I do not have precise dates)... I wonder if that has any bearing on the need for the marriage in 1843 (!). Second child, James Dainty Limpus (my g-grandfather) was not born until 1848, when Ann Selina and John were living in Brighton where he was a "servant".
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Unfortunately, we can only speculate as to the Ann Selina Morland signature. My guess would be "out of habit" and not concentrating.
I wouldn't have thought anyone would care that she married a footman, as her sister also married a servant. He's on the 1851 census as a coachman for a baroness.
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I'm still puzzled by the Morland family. Margaret Elizabeth who married Thomas Thorne says she was born Knightsbridge 1861/1881 and in 1871 born Chelsea.
AMENDED wrong family above.
Yet the Ann Selina who married John Limpus consistently states born Fulham.
John Morland who died 1799 was in the carpet business, he directed that everything be sold and after debts, (he had a large mortgage) 1/3 to his wife Margaret and the remaining 2/3 divided among his children still living.
I don't see his son who was 24 when his father died becoming a mariner at that age. At 14 his father would have started to train him in the business. Then he married at St George's Hanover Square.
There is a John Morland who married Ann Heather 12 June 1803 at All Saints Fulham who seems a more likely candidate for the father of Ann Selina and Margaret who say their father is a Mariner.
I would find out where the parish registers for Fulham are located and sort this out.
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It just seems to be the baptisms from 1813 to 1830 that are missing. If someone saw them in 1974, the original book may still be at the archives. (Probably the London Metropolitan.) Too damaged to be copied, but available to view - maybe.
The Upholsterer/Mariner occupations don't gel well.
What does fit though, is that Sarah Ann Ragless was born 1781 in Sussex. The same as the Sarah Morland on the Fulham/Parsons Green censuses. And her death certificate shows her to be the widow of a mariner. So the John Morland getting married in 1815 at St.George Hanover must have been the mariner.
As has been said - that baptism record needs to be seen.
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I wonder where the story of Ann Selina being disowned by her family was passed down from and to.
It doesn't seem likely with parents being a mariner and dress maker. More feasible, perhaps, would be John Morland having trouble with his family, and going off to sea - or river.
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amondg ...I'm not sure your census info (previous post) for Margaret Elizabeth Thorne (nee Morland) is correct ? As far as I can see 1851, 1871 1881 and 1891 all have her birthplace as Middlesex or Fulham (I can't find her in 1861)
1851 Census has this (which implies she was widowed, unless husband Thomas was out of town):
Name Margaret E Thorne
Saint James Westminster, Middlesex
Residence Coach Horses Yard
Age 33
Marital Status Married
Occupation Dress Maker
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Birthplace Fulham, Middlesex
Page Number 41
Registration Number HO107
Piece/Folio 1485 / 372
1871
Name Margt Eliz Thorne
St George, London, Middlesex,
Enumeration District 3
Age 53
Marital Status Widowed
Occupation Upholstress
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Birthplace Middlesex
1881 (living with SOn William and family)
Name Margaret E Thorne
Lambeth, London,Surrey
Registration District Lambeth
Residence Note Rattray Rd
Age 63
Marital Status Widow
Relationship to Head of Household Mother
Birthplace Fulham, Middlesex
Page Number 61
Registration Number RG11
Piece/Folio 623/117
1891 (still with son William and family)
Name: Margaret Thorne
Parish: Wandsworth
Ecclesiastical Parish: ST FAITHS
Residence Birdhurst Road
Age: 74
Marital Status: Widow
Relationship to Head of Household: Mother
Page Number: 26
Line Number: 23
Registration Number: RG12
Piece/Folio: 448/ 73
I can't see Thomas Thorne on 1851 or later census ...so I'm not sure where the coach man to a baroness info comes from ?
Moderator comment: Edited for content. Please do not copy and paste transcriptions from subscription sites as these are subject to copyright. You must transcribe what you see in the images
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I wonder where the story of Ann Selina being disowned by her family was passed down from and to.
It doesn't seem likely with parents being a mariner and dress maker. More feasible, perhaps, would be John Morland having trouble with his family, and going off to sea - or river.
The story came down in our family, at least, from my aunt and grandmother (who was Ann Selina's granddaughter)...I also have it via the great grandson of Oliver Morland Limpus, Ann Selina's son born 1859 ...although his version has John Limpus as the gardener, where I believe he was a footman (or at least he was stated as such on his marriage certificate.
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John Morland who died 1799 was in the carpet business,
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His address may have been "Carpet Warehouse Princes Street" in July 1798 (from coroner's jury record, I think) but he was according to his will and other information an "upholder" (which I know can mean a number of things, "Upholder" is an archaic word for "upholsterer". In past times upholders carried out not just the manufacture and sale of upholstered goods but were cabinet makers, undertakers, soft furnishers, auctioneers and valuers ). He certainly was in business as "Ravald and Morland" in the 1780s in London and made a desk and other items in 1784 for The Prince of Wales (later George IV) (he even got paid for them in 1785 !) He appears in various trade directories at the time as a cabinet maker. It is of course entirely possible that we have been looking since the 1970s and beyond, at the wrong John Morland(s) .....but as the original(1974) research that I have was pre-internet and based on local record office data ...and quotes John Morland and Sara Ann Regless children as being "baptised in All Saints Church, Fulham....I hope not. I think a visit to the church is a good next step !
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This Thomas ties in as being the son of the following Samuel Thorne, who is with Margaret's son Thomas
1851 Epsom
Digby Neane 54 Baronet
Margaret Neane Dau 4
then 7 servants including
Thomas Thorne 29 Coachman Brentwood, Essex
Says he's unmarried, but servants often say that when it isn't true
1851 Marylebone
Samuel Thorne 56 Coachman Romford, Essex
Jane Thorne wife 58
Thomas Thorne g.son 4 Marylebone
I can't find any of them in 1861
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Churches no longer hold their old records. If the Fulham baptisms for those years still exist, they'd be at the London Metropolian Archives
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Thanks for the LMA pointer.....
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1861 Census Municipal Ward Portman, St Marylebone
Samuel Thorne 66 Coachman born Romford Essex
Jane 62 born Coleshill Warwickshire.
Possible death for Samuel 1866 age 71 registered a St George Hanover.
This should be the correct Thomas and Margaret Thorne
Children baptized at St Mary Marylebone
John Morland Thorne born 2 March 1845, bap 23 March 1845 address 46 Upper Harley Street.
William Thorne born 9 June 1848 bap 30 June 1848 address 24 Clarges Street Piccadilly.
Thomas Thorne born 26 October 1846, bap 15 November 1846 address 41 Devonshire Mews
(same address as 1851 census with grandparents)
Henry Thorne born 10 November 1850 bap 1 December 1850 address Coach & Horses Yard Burlington Street.
Baptized at St James Westminster
Margaret Elizabeth Thorne born 16 September 1854 bap 9 October 1854.
transcription only no image on ancestry so do not have the address.
Unfortunately she dies 1866 age 12 registered at St Marylebone.
I haven't found Margaret Elizabeth in 1861.
Have you tried the Maritime Museum at Greenwich for information on John Morland the mariner?
The East of London Family History Society are also very helpful
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Churches no longer hold their old records. If the Fulham baptisms for those years still exist, they'd be at the London Metropolian Archives
Not always, a number in London & Middlesex are still at the church
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=430983.0
Details of deposited registers for Hammersmith & Fulham parishes can be found here
https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/things-to-do/london-metropolitan-archives/family-history/Documents/london-metropolitan-archives-hammersmith-and-fulham-london-generations-guide.pdf
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So it appears, from dawnsh' LMA link, that Ancestry have the records for All Saints, Fulham 1813-1828, but haven't put them on the website. Pity.
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I've just spoken to someone at London Metropolitan Archives.
Was told that their information that Ancestry have the 1813-1828 baptisms is incorrect. They're now going to amend their information sheet.
LMA do hold the baptisms themselves though.
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In reply to Moderator comment on my previous post which included census details
quote "Moderator comment: Edited for content. Please do not copy and paste transcriptions from subscription sites as these are subject to copyright. You must transcribe what you see in the images"
unquote
The information I posted was taken directly ("copy and pasted") from the FamilySearch.org website and NOT from any subscription site .I do not have a FamilySearch.org account - I use the "Free Account" access and as far as I am aware the data available has no copyright or other restriction on sharing ?
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I've just spoken to someone at London Metropolitan Archives.
Was told that their information that Ancestry have the 1813-1828 baptisms is incorrect. They're now going to amend their information sheet.
LMA do hold the baptisms themselves though.
Thanks for this - is there an easy way to get access to that material without physically visiting LMA ?
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I'm fed up with doing the ironing. I'll go there now, so we can at least get pass this baptism hurdle.
If it's there, I should be able to see it in about 40-50 mins. Will get back to you with results - I hope.
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What can I say....that is so very kind of you....thank you very much
😊 Martin
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No great effort needed Martin. I have an OAP travel pass, so it doesn't cost me anything.
Now I don't know if this is a help or hindrance.
Fulham parish church baptisms
22nd June 1817
Margaret Elizabeth Morland dau.of John and Sarah Ann - gent.
4th June 1820
Ann Selina Morland dau.of John and Sarah Ann - carpenter
7th June 1822
John Morland son of John and Sarah Ann - carpenter
All lliving at Walham Green
I've taken photocopies in case they're needed.
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Croz
This forum is privately owned and the moderating and copyright teams must ensure that breaches of copyright do not take place.
Please take a moment to read our copyright policy which is at the bottom of every Rootschat page in the brown area.
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The transcription and layout you copied belong to Family Search.
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Thank you
Dawn
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OK understood....no intention on my part to break any rules and I appreciate very much the help, advice and guidance which this excellent forum offers. I was simply responding to the suggestion I had cut and pasted from a subscription database or website. I looked to see if there were any copyright references on FamilySearch before I responded but confess I didn't see them. I will be more diligent in future.
Thanks for putting me straight.
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Lily M.........Once again...thank you very much for going to the trouble of looking this up. A new puzzle, I think....carpenter could have connections with upholstery ......but no mention of sailor or mariner. Gent sounds so much better doesn't it 😉. How does a gent become a (humble ?) carpenter in 3 years....and why is he recorded 3 times elsewhere as a mariner.....
No reason to doubt that this is the correct Ann Selina Morland, later wife of John Limpus and sister of Margaret Elizabeth......but the story about being disowned by the family now sounds increasingly implausible.....
I think my head is starting to hurt 🤕
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Do you have the death certificate for the John Morland who died 1845? I wonder who the informant was, and what occupation they gave him.
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I don't, but the same thought occurred to me yesterday...I should get a copy.
I keep running through the sequence..
1775 born
1817...."gent"
1820... "carpenter"
1822....."carpenter"
1841 ..."upholsterer"
1843..."sailor"
1844..."mariner"
1845 died
And I can't make much sense of it after 1841 (and even in 1841 he seems to be living in a different household to his wife...)
Rather than John "disowning" his daughter Ann Selina around the time of her 1843 marriage...I wonder if it was the other way around...and she disowned him for some reason...I guess we will never know !
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A link to one of my other posts on the Morland subject just for interest - includes a photo of what I have always believed to be a marble relief/cameo sculpture one of the John Morlands ... more likely the 1739-99 Soho cabinet maker.......or maybe that's just another story ... it certainly came to me via Ann Selina's granddaughter ( my own grandmother ).
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=565628.msg4180469#msg4180469
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What a lovely thing to have! But you've thrown up another conundrum.
Why would the inscription be etched onto the inside of the backing? I can see what the words say, but what do they all mean?
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Who knows....??? The etched letters and words may simply be the work of mischievous children many years ago...the backwards lettering in "Limpus" has always looked suspicious but we will never know.....every time I put the old chap away I wish he could speak to me....😉
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I know, at that time, wearing the latest fashions wasn't restricted to the young, but I still feel that John Morland senior may have been too old in the 1790s to be wearing such an up-to-the-minute style. My guess would be J.M. junior around 1825.
All my theories for J.M. being described as a Mariner are convoluted and, therefore, probably unlikely. But becoming a Mariner at the age of 67 is also unlikely.
I thought, maybe, for whatever reason, J.M. went away from the family home for some time. An easy way to explain this to the children was to say he had gone off to sea. Maybe they belived he had retired by the 1841 census. John, reluctant to go along with this, has put his proper occupation on the census form. A disagreement between him and Sarah could explain the seperate households.
Yes, I know it's a long stretch.
If you decide to spash out on a death certificate, please come back and let us know what it says.
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All theories welcome ..... the date "inscribed" on the backing slate could be 1843 or 1848 ...my best guess is 1843 but it could have been "inscribed" much later. We could have enough material here for a mini-series ...I will certainly get the death cert for JM 1845 ...whether it is the right JM remains to be seen ...watch this space !
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Latest update - copy of John Morland 1845 death certificate obtained...details are :
Date of death 24 July 1845
Place Fulham Fields
John Moreland (spelt with an "e")
Age 70
Occupation CARPENTER
cause of death Gout
Informant - Rebekah Frances, present at the death, residence Fulham Fields.
As far as I can see "Fulham Fields" is a generic district...I cannot pin down any more detailed location. Rebekah Frances seems to have been a nurse (at least from 1851 census information, although the name spelling is slightly different).
So - we still have the anomaly of the 1843 and 1844 Sailor and Mariner occupation details, from his daughters' marriage certificates and the "mariner's widow" reference on his wife's death cert in 1866. Otherwise the occupation thread, gleaned from baptism and census information goes :
1817 "Gent" (baptism record)
1820 Carpenter (baptism record)
1822 Carpenter (baptism record)
1841 Upholsterer (Census)
1845 Carpenter (Death cert)
I really cannot make sense of it ......I cannot see any way that the John Morland who baptised Ann Selina and Margaret Elizabeth can be a different person from the father of both of them at the time of their marriages ... so where did the sailor and mariner come from ??????
Looking at dates - born in 1775, married in 1815, first child baptised 1817 (when JM was 42) I suppose it might be possible that he was a sailor/mariner before his marriage (my original family tree compiler used the expression (JM) "was for many years a sailor ...then upholsterer.." but I don't know on what evidence he based that sequence of occupation events .....a sequence which cannot apparently be supported from what I have now uncovered). Why, however, his daughters (and widow, or at least her death informant, who was, I think, a niece of Ann Selina Morland's husband John Limpus) would have preferred "sailor" or "mariner" as his occupation rather than "carpenter" is strange.......incidentally his widow, Sarah Ann, was listed as "late dressmaker" in the 1851 census and "alms woman" in the 1861 census ...never as "mariner's widow"....or even "carpenter's widow"
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Thanks for letting us know what was on the death certificate. It does at least prove you have the right man.
As for the various occupations ???
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In case anyone comes across this post two years after my last update...I believe I have now found the 1841 census record for Ann Selina Morland.......she appears as Ann MoreEland in the household of Lady Malkin, widow of Sir Benjamn Heath Malkin (1797-1837), circuit judge in Britain, Recorder of Straits Settlements 1832-35, Judge of Supreme Court, Calcutta 1835-37, at Little Mulgrave House in Fulham. She is listed, I believe, as "F S"...ie Female Servant. What convinces me that this is "my" Ann Selina is the fact that one Emily Samber is also listed in the household...I noted in a previous post in this thread that Emily (indistinct but probably "Samber") was one of the witnesses at Ann Selina's marriage in 1843.
The fact that Ann Selina was a servant in Lady Malkin's household in 1841 now almost completely debunks the handed down story that she was disowned" by the Morland family for "eloping" with a footman working "on the Morland estate". I am now convinced there was no "estate" and although her husband John was a footman or manservant there is no evidence he worked for the Morland family.....still no solution, however, to John Morland's multiple occupations.....!
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Hi Croz,
I am related to the Ragless family (Sarah Ann married John Morland) and came across the following in my research, which you may be interested in.
1925 Letter Extract by Selina Sorby (nee Limpus) (1852-1932)
"Aunt S?? told me that my grandma (Sarah Ragless, born at Angmering but adopted by an Aunt at Waltham Green (Walham Green, Fulham, Middlesex)) went to do sewing at the house of Mrs Morland & heard her and her two daughters talking about the expected return of the only son, after many years absence. Within 6 weeks of his return, he had married the little dressmaker - she 34 and he 40 years old. Her aunt disowned her & adopted her younger sister (Jane Ragless) who married with her consent and inherited her few houses etc. etc. (my Great Aunt Mrs Bohne who lived to be 95). His mother would have nothing more to do with him & at her death left all her property to her two daughters. (She kept her carriage etc..) with the exception of £20 a year to her son for his life, which he refused to accept. I fancy they must have been very poor, but in my estimation he was lucky to get such a wife. She was a dear little woman, very clever in all household accomplishments, could cook, knit & sew, taught her daughters (illegible). I have a silver tablespoon with her initials & another with those of an older sister, that were always spoken of as 'christening presents' & I remember her three brothers coming to see father when I was 16 - the year after grandma died (1866) and inviting James and I to Angmering. But we never went. When my uncle John was born the Morland family undertook to educate and provide for him & trustees were appointed. He was to have gone to Eton - but after he was drowned at 9yrs of age - nothing was ever done for my Aunt or my mother".
I also believe that John Morland contested the beadleship of Fulham parish in 1828 (Feret's "Fulham Old and New") and was described, in a handbill, as being "for many years in the arduous and honourable service of his king and country at sea".
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Thanks regmay for this valuable information. I have replied separately to your personal message.
Best wishes
Croz