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Research in Other Countries => Other Countries => Topic started by: rkive82 on Wednesday 07 December 16 05:37 GMT (UK)
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"Alexander Agar Agar, who was a Lt. Colonel in the Indian Army prior to Independence."
So began a query from a friend.
I investigated and found a death record in February 1995 in the Isle of Wight and a birth date of 16 August 1909.
I found various travel records and notifications of his progress through the ranks in the Indian Army.
He is apparently our man, but who were his parents?
Was he born Alexander Agar Agar or not? To me that's an unlikely name to give a child.
I have a theory about who this gentleman was, but thought I'd ask for help from you smart folk out there.
Thanks
Richard
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Have you seen a possible marriage?
Alexander A Agar to Dulcie E Orpen in 1937 in Paddington 2nd Qtr 1A 170
Kay
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Dulcie Edna Agar died in Bombay in 1942 and probate granted to husband Alexander Agar Agar
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Thanks Kay.
I have seen this possible marriage and this is what made me wonder if A Agar Agar was not his name at birth since there's an alternative entry as Alexander A Angelsmith on the FreeBMD index.
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My friend found an Alexander Agar on a 1912 travel document with Oliver C Shelton Agar and his Alice wife Mabel and concluded that Oliver and Mabel were his parents and that this Alexander is the same person.
What do you think?
Richard
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"Duclie Edna Agar died in Bomaby in 1942 and probate granted to husband Alexander Agar Agar."
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Dulcie E Poulter or Orpen was on the marriage record. This makes sense and I have found no record of him remarrying.
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Richard
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Thanks Kay.
I have seen this possible marriage and this is what made me wonder if A Agar Agar was not his name at birth since there's an alternative entry as Alexander A Angelsmith on the FreeBMD index.
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My friend found an Alexander Agar on a 1912 travel document with Oliver C Shelton Agar and his Alice wife Mabel and concluded that Oliver and Mabel were his parents and that this Alexander is the same person.
What do you think?
Richard
The family with father Oliver look a good possibility. Have you found them in 1911?? The marriage cert would confirm Alexander's father
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No. I haven't found them in 1911.
Furthermore, I copied 200 pages of information about relatives and friends of Robert Moseley Bryce Thomas earlier this year which included Oliver, Alice Mabel and six children. Alexander and Gladys, who are on the 1912 travel document, are not in the list of six children. With a birth date of 16th August 1909, it would be very unlikely that Alexander could have been born between the the other listed children.
I don't believe Alexander was their son. If he were their son, why can't I find a birth or baptism record? Would Alexander Agar Agar be a name to give their son. I doubt it.
That's why I posted here; to get another perspective.
Richard
P.S. I have to go to bed soon. :-\
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Re the name -people can be really strange. A good friend was given the same first name as his surname by his parents !! Could their children have been born in India?
Western Morning News 8 July 1937- Alexander (mentions him being in the Punjab Reg) gave the bride away at a wedding in Poughill, Bude Bride was Barbara Mary Neilson Rutherford daughter of Dr and Mrs Randolf Rutherford of Lammermuir Bude Wonder how he knew the family??
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There's a 1934 engagement announcement The Times which concerns "Mr A Agar". He is described as Alexander Agar, son of the late Rev Walter Angelsmith and Mrs Angelsmith of Winsley, Wiltshire.
This was not his engagement to Dulcie Orpen.
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It looks like the father of the Rev Reginald Walter Angel Angel-Smith was originally a Smith but assumed the name Angel-Smith after Walter was born.
https://goo.gl/5hNFik
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Check out the 1911 census for Padley Agar Agar in Winsley. A most interesting family set-up.
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Padley Agar Agar
Sounds like a very nasty disease!!
So, who is Padley married to? Correction - who is Agar Padley Agar married to?
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A menage a trois ?
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Agar Padley Agar gives place of birth as Guildford in the 1901 census. The only birth I can see in Guildford is actually for an Agar Padley Thompson Jul - Sep 1852. Baptism Albury 27 Jul 1852. Father George Agar Thompson Mother Ellen Elizabeth.
William
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ALEXANDER AGAR ANGELSMITH mothers maiden name BAMFIELD
1909 Sept Quarter BRADFORD ON AVON Volume 05A Page 119
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"Agar Padley Agar grandson of the late Rev. Alfred Padley, of Bulwell Hall, Notts"
Marriage announcement - to Amelia Matilda Mary Belsey at St Alban's Holborn.
London Evening Standard, 22 December 1875
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Agar Padley Agar I.N. (what does that mean?) grandson of the late Rev. Alfred Padley of Bulwell Hall, Notts [married] Amelia Matilda Mary, youngest daughter of the late George Belsey Esq.
Married at St Albans, Holborn
Red boxed - I was just typing that Shaun!!
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And Alexander's connection to the Rutherford family marriage in 1937 (which I posted earlier where he gave the bride away) may have been through the mother of the bride who was also a Bamfield and this is her marraige to the bride's father Randolf Rutherford
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNPK-VM8
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There is a newspaper notice Bath Chronicle 2 May 1901. Agar P Agar was one of the mourners at the funeral of James Bampfylde (Bamfield a version of this?). The service was conducted by a Rev G H Thompson. Funeral may explain why he is recorded in 1901 census as there are Freemasons docs showing he was in India in the 1900's. iF Agar P Agar and Agar P Thompson are indeed one and the same there are masters and mates docs. for the latter.
William
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Earlier children for Reginald and Lucy Angelsmith:
Mar qtr 1891, Bedminster: Lucy Angelsmith (death registered same quarter)
Jun qtr 1892, Bedminster: Reginald Eric O Angelsmith (died Bradford in Avon, Mar qtr 1909 aged 16)
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Agar Padley Agar/Thompson's father - George Agar Thompson - seems to have died in 1860.
Probate calendar reads:
Letters of administration (with the will annexed) and the personal estate and effects of George Agar Thompson formerly of Brook Cottage Albury in the County of Surrey but late of South Lawn near Exeter in the County of Devon Esquire deceased who died 5 July 1860 at Inglewood Diggings Maryborough County in the Colony of Victoria were grated at the Principal Registry to Ellen Elizabeth Ann Newton Thompson of South Lawn aforesaid widow the relict and a Residuary Legatee for Life named in the said Will she having been first sworn
Effects under £200
So did Agar Padley start using Agar as surname after father's death?
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iF Agar P Agar and Agar P Thompson are indeed one and the same there are masters and mates docs. for the latter.
So the "I N" acronym in the 1875 marriage announcement could stand for "Indian Navy"
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George Agar Thompson married Ellen Elizabeth Newton Padley 2 Oct 1846 Langham, Westminster
-as in interesting aside one of the witnesses was W Wilkie Collins.
1851 census states he was born in Edinburgh (and was an annuitant) - there is a birth in Edinburgh for him 5 June 1824 Parents John Thompson and Catherine Agar.
William
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Thanks Shaun - that makes sense.
But Blimey :D I've just looked at the marriage cert between George Agar Thompson and his wife of many many forenames - and one of the witnesses was W Wilkie Collins :o nothing exciting like that happens in my family tree (ag lab from Norfolk village marries daughter of ag lab from same Norfolk village x 10 generations)
Red boxed again!!
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"Agar-Belsey: Agar P. Agar, Indian Navy, to Amelia M. M., daughter of the late Geo. Belsey..."
Allens Indian Mail, 16 December 1875, courtesy of FIBIS
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Unless I have missed something, we don't yet have the connection (if there is one) between Reginald Walter Angelsmith and Agar Padley Agar.
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Unless I have missed something, we don't yet have the connection (if there is one) between Reginald Walter Angelsmith and Agar Padley Agar.
A few factors point to Agar, rather than Angelsmith, being Alexander's natural father. The Agar middle name, the long gap since the Angelsmith children of the early 1890s, the marriage announcement saying that Alexander was grandson of Rev. Padley.
Perhaps there simply was an unconventional domestic arrangement which suited (or was tolerated by) everyone concerned, for one reason or another. There may well be no previous connection between the two men.
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Death notice for George Agar Thompson 22 Sept 1860 Exeter and Plymouth Gazette - July 4 at Inglewood, Victoria, Australia, George Agar Thompson Esq, police magistrate and district warden.
No I don't think you have missed anything, Spidermonkey!
William
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Reginald Angelsmith was prosecuted in Sep 1909 for assaulting a local district nurse in his parish in August of that year. He had also publicly insulted her in a very unattractive-sounding tirade, very unbecoming of a gentleman let alone (as the reports say) a man of the cloth! The prosecution was discontinued when he made a public apology at the complainant's request.
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Unless I have missed something, we don't yet have the connection (if there is one) between Reginald Walter Angelsmith and Agar Padley Agar.
A few factors point to Agar, rather than Angelsmith, being Alexander's natural father. The Agar middle name, the long gap since the Angelsmith children of the early 1890s, the marriage announcement saying that Alexander was grandson of Rev. Padley.
See, in my naive way :-[ I just took that to mean that Alexander was connected by a relation of Ellen Elizabeth! Although Shaun had suggested a menage a trois, I thought there would be another explanation!! :-[
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I was also trying to work out how a man of the cloth had got away with marrying a 15/16 year old. I think they must have met when he was Minor Canon of Bristol :o
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I was also trying to work out how a man of the cloth had got away with marrying a 15/16 year old. I think they must have met when he was Minor Canon of Bristol :o
Pregnancy may have been a factor!
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Agar Padley Agar would appear to have died in Jersey in 1929 and left a will. Perhaps that might reveal if he was the father.
William
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I was also trying to work out how a man of the cloth had got away with marrying a 15/16 year old. I think they must have met when he was Minor Canon of Bristol :o
Pregnancy may have been a factor!
I would say so - they marry on 2 Jul 1890, first dau born M qtr 1891. Lucy was baptised on 17 Jul 1874 (ancestry only has transcripts so can't see original parish reg to see if it gives birth date, but I wonder if they married on her 16th birthday?!)
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Lucy's birth was registered in Sep qtr 1874, so she certainly was a young infant when baptised.
Reminds me of my g-g-grandmother who married my g-g-grandfather (twice her age) as a pregnant 16-yr-old in the 1880s :)
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Lucy's birth was registered in Sep qtr 1874, so she certainly was a young infant when baptised.
Reminds me of my g-g-grandmother who married a man twice her age as a pregnant 16-yr-old in the 1880s :)
I know that it happened (and still does happen) , but I think this is one of the times when my safeguarding and child protection responsibilities as a teacher come to the forefront and override my family history viewpoint, if you know what I mean! My response is to wonder why on earth there wasn't a huge outcry - but I have checked the newspapers and I can find absolutely nothing!! Oh well, different times etc!
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Reginald Angelsmith dies in Dec qtr 1922 (Bradford on Avon, Wiltshire) and Agar Padley Agar dies in 1929 in Jersey. I wonder if Lucy married Agar, or indeed what happened to Lucy?
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Struggling to see anything for Lucy, Spidermonkey, after 1922.
William
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Lucy's birth was registered in Sep qtr 1874, so she certainly was a young infant when baptised.
Reminds me of my g-g-grandmother who married a man twice her age as a pregnant 16-yr-old in the 1880s :)
I know that it happened (and still does happen) , but I think this is one of the times when my safeguarding and child protection responsibilities as a teacher come to the forefront and override my family history viewpoint, if you know what I mean! My response is to wonder why on earth there wasn't a huge outcry - but I have checked the newspapers and I can find absolutely nothing!! Oh well, different times etc!
Outcry because she was pregnant, or because she was young?
The age of consent for a female in England was 14 when Lucy married in 1890, having historically been lower. A girl of 15 or 16 was a minor, but a marriageable one. Pregnancy obviously not great, especially if the father was an older clergyman, but pregnancy at marriage was not uncommon and she'd no doubt have been rushed up the aisle before she showed.
In my g-g-grandparents' case (in Nebraska) there is lots of evidence from letters and diaries that the couple were very much in love, though the bride's father would not allow a marriage before she turned 16.
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You're right avm, I know you are, and I know it was acceptable then.
But hey! At least I know that Agar, Lucy and Alexander spent Christmas at Cheltenham in 1925 (at the Ellenborough House Hotel). Lucy and Alexander retain their Angelsmith surname at this point. (Various newspapers, listing visitors to Cheltenham)
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Mr A A Angelsmith attended a New Years party at Cheltenham Town Hall in aid of the Hospital 1926/27 so he hadn't changed his name at that point. I wonder if the name change was after the death of Agar Padley, and something to do with inheritance?
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A P Agar's widow Amelia Matilda Mary Agar died in Seaford, Sussex on 9 October 1931.
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Unless I have missed something, we don't yet have the connection (if there is one) between Reginald Walter Angelsmith and Agar Padley Agar.
A few factors point to Agar, rather than Angelsmith, being Alexander's natural father. The Agar middle name, the long gap since the Angelsmith children of the early 1890s, the marriage announcement saying that Alexander was grandson of Rev. Padley.
I've just reread everything, and the marriage announcement that says he is the grandson of Rev. Padley is referring to Agar Padley, not Alexander. Not that this changes the possibility that Agar was the father, mind you!
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Agar Padley Agar/Thompson's father - George Agar Thompson - seems to have died in 1860.
Probate calendar reads:
Letters of administration (with the will annexed) and the personal estate and effects of George Agar Thompson formerly of Brook Cottage Albury in the County of Surrey but late of South Lawn near Exeter in the County of Devon Esquire deceased who died 5 July 1860 at Inglewood Diggings Maryborough County in the Colony of Victoria were grated at the Principal Registry to Ellen Elizabeth Ann Newton Thompson of South Lawn aforesaid widow the relict and a Residuary Legatee for Life named in the said Will she having been first sworn
Effects under £200
So did Agar Padley start using Agar as surname after father's death?
Newspaper article talking about George Agar Thompson's death, in which he appears to have taken his own life whilst suffering from delirium tremens - would that be indicative of malaria, perhaps? http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/87944939?searchTerm=%22Agar%20Thompson%22&searchLimits=
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Amelia Agar can be identified in the 1901 and 1911 census. Her daughter Ethel Beatrix (b Bangalore) is with her in 1901 - Ethel Beatrix was to marry Arthur Kemmis Betty (subsequently a Rear Admiral), the marriage notice indicating that she was the g grand daughter of Rev Padley. (Must do a google search for him!). The probate calendar does indicate a considerable difference in the size of the respective estates of Amelia and Agar Padley Agar, her's being substantial and his very small.
William
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The Rev Padley's little house (Bulwell Hall) is here http://www.ournottinghamshire.org.uk/page_id__1243.aspx
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Thanks so much everybody for your input.
I had seen the June 1937 marriage and the 1911 census records and came to the conclusion that Alexander Agar Agar was not the son of Oliver Cruwell Shelton Agar and his wife Alice Mabel née Thomas.
You have filled in a huge amount of information and what an interesting story there is here.
My questions:
1. Have we found any evidence of Alex. Agar Agar having any children of his own?
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2. Has anybody found any link at all between Alexander and Oliver C S Agar, other than the 1912 travel document - "I can see him travelling from Liverpool to Colombo, Ceylon, in 1912, his parents are Oliver Shelton Agar and Mrs. Shelton Agar. His siblings are Oliver and Gladys. The ship is the SS Gloucestershire, and another First Class passenger is Sir Henry Rider Haggard, author of King Solomon's Mines etc!" -
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As always, I really appreciate your expertise and help.
Richard
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This is my grandmas dad, if you want any information about him reply to me