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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Berkshire => Topic started by: jphall on Thursday 08 December 16 19:26 GMT (UK)
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Help needed
Have been looking for sometime for the Marriage of a Henry Haynes/Haines born 1823c Tilehurst, West Berkshire, England.
They had a daughter named Sarah born 1863c also of Tilehurst.
Henry's father we think was a William Haynes/Haines born 1799c Studley Buckinghamsh.
Thank You
John :-\
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Find sarahs 1863 birth registration and get mothers maiden name.
Any siblings for her?
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A Henry John Haines - called Harry by his grandchildren - born 1832 of Tilehurst was my great grandfather and I have a lot of information on him, his wife, children and ancestors. I'll post some basic information for you later for you to check of it's your Henry Haines.
If it's not I have a copy of the parish records transcripts and I might be able to find 'your' Henry.
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Hi
Thanks Pauline, tried that but without luck. Can not find siblings. Its getting the more I look the more of a muddle I seem to be in.
John
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Hi Artifis,
Not sure if its the same Henry. Could be. His father we think was a William born 1799c and may have married a Ann Hunt.
Thanks
John
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Lets try and get you out of your 'muddle'
Where have you found Sarah (bn 1863)? I cant see a Sarah Haines or Haynes bn 1863 in Tilehurst on 1871 or 1881 (nor a Henry bn 1823 Tilehurst for that matter) - have you got her?
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Ok, firstly I presume this is them in 1871?
Henry Haines 40
Elizabeth Haines 42
Henry Haines 16
Martha Haines 11
Sarah Haines 9*********
George Haines 7
Jane Haines 4
Ann Haines 6 Months
Living in Wantage Reg Ditrict.
From GRO Index (free to register and search, but must get a log in when reg.)
Sarah HAINES, GRO Reference: 1862 S Quarter in WANTAGE Volume 02C Page 281
Mothers maiden name BOSHER
Marriage Reg from FreeBMD;
Henry HAINES and Elizabeth BOSHER, Dec 1851, Wantage, 4 493
Trish :)
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Hi
We know that this is her as she met her husband at this place of employment who was a groom. He was Arthur Henry Leach.
I think we got Tilehurst through another member of family.
Samuel A Richards Head M 79 Poplar, Middlesex, England
John Richards Son M 47 Epping, Essex, England
Sarah Morrison Daughter F 40 Camberwell, Surrey, England
Sarah Haynes Servant F 17 Reading, Berkshire, England
Citing this Record
"England and Wales Census, 1881
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Hi Trish
This could be the family. As we have no other information we can rely on this is a very good place to try and start to firm up.
Thanks
John
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1881 Census Henry Haines is born c 1827 East Lockinge, Berkshire
Christening on Anc;
Henry Haines
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 3 Feb 1828
Christening Place: East Lockinge, Berkshire, England
Father: JAMESames Haines
Mother: LYDIA
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Have you got Sarah and her husband on all censuses after their marriage to see where she said she was born?
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Firstly lets start with Sarah, 1861 she is born c 1862 Ardington, Bekshire.
This is where they are living in the 1871 Census I posted.
This is more likely her in 1881;
In Stoke Newington, London
Charles A. Nutt 39
Martha M. Nutt 36
Wilfred C. Nutt 9
Aubrey H. Nutt 2
Sarah A. Brown 22
Sarah A. Haines, 19, Housemaid, born Ardington, Berkshire
Jane Haines, 15, Housemaid, born Ardington
As you can see she is with her Sister Jane from 1871 Census!
Her Likely Mother Elizabeth in 1841/1851
1841 Census
West Hendred, Berkshire
Robert Bosher, 50
Martha Bosher, 40
Elizabeth Bosher, 12******
Ann Bosher, 11
William Bosher, 9
1851
Robt Bosher, 60
Martha Bosher, 52
Elizabeth Bosher, 22
Ann Bosher, 21
Chas Bosher, 10
West Hendred is Elizabeth Haines pob on Census 1861/1871/1881 although she varies as born 1825-1830 on Census.
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Good question Liz, best to find her married on Census first!
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Maria Haynes was a Witness at the 1884 Marriage of Arthur/Sarah in Surrey
Sarah Leach is born
1891, c 1869 Tilehurst
1901 c 1866 Tiilehurst
1911 c 1866 Tilehurst
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deleted
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Tilehurst Haines family.
I’ve checked the records and there’s not another Henry Haines/Haynes baptised at Tilehurst in the same time frame of 1832, there is one in 1823 s/o William & Ann then another in 1857 who’s the son of ‘my’ Henry John Haines .
Henry John Haines
bap. 11 March 1832 at St Michael’s, Tilehurst – s/o Thomas & Jane (nee Hart)
mar. Francis Minall 27 Jul 1856 at St Michael’s
died 02 Apr 1912
Henry and Francis had the following children baptised at St Michael’s:
George Henry bap.31 Mar 1854 – illegitimate but Henry John listed as the father
Henry bap. 25 Oct 1857
Mary bap. 26 Feb 1860
Lydia bap.26 Oct 1862 – *
Elizabeth (Lizzie) bap. 24 Sep 1865
Ellen bap.26 Jan 1868
Richard bap. 05 Jun 1870
Jane Lucy bap. 24 Nov 1872
Sarah bap 28 May 1875
John William (always known as Bill ) bap. 28 Oct 1877 – Bill always thought Fred below his brother and named him as such in his will.
*Lydia had an illegitimate son Alfred (Fred or Frederick) bap. 25 Apr 1880, brought up by Henry and Francis and she ‘packed off’ to Kensington in London.
I have Thomas’s father and possibly grandfather plus Francis’ immediate ancestry plus ancestors of other spouses. I also have some of the descendents of Henry John’s children. My father was three when Henry John died and could just remember him and Aunt Jane who looked after him – Jane Lucy above – plus dad knew that his great grandfather, whose name he didn’t know, was also born in Tilehurst – dad’s Haines family were close knit and he knew a lot about all of them.
The 12 year age gap between the Sarah you mention and ‘my’ Henry’s Sarah seems too big and my Henry’s parents were definitely Thomas and Jane. I therefore suspect that the Tilehurst Henry is not the one you’re looking for.
There is another Henry Haines born c1832 in Reading who has been confused with the Tilehurst Henry by others in the past.
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Thank you all very much for your help.
Artifis, I would very much appreciate the details on Francis family,
Its not very easy this one.
What I do know is that Sarah Haynes Servant F 17 Reading, Berkshire, England in the 1831 census.
Reading and Tilehurst are perhaps considered the same area as she is described as coming from Tilehurst in later 1891 census.
When I have all the posts in I will look at it afresh
Thanks again
John
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Hi
I dug this out from Family Search, perhaps my original source
Henry Haynes
England Births and Christenings
Name Henry Haynes
Gender Male
Christening Date 21 Sep 1823
Christening Place TILEHURST,BERKSHIRE,ENGLAND
Father's Name William Haynes
Mother's Name Ann
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Hi John, that's the Henry I referred to, not 'my' Henry John.
How did you get back to this Henry, maybe we can figure out which one is 'your' Henry if you could let us know that.
If yours is the 1823 one then I can look into that to see if he's associated with my family, reasonable possibility as not too many Haines's in Tilehurst at that time.
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Henry Haynes
England Births and Christenings
Name Henry Haynes
Gender Male
Christening Date 21 Sep 1823
Christening Place TILEHURST,BERKSHIRE,ENGLAND
Father's Name William Haynes
Mother's Name Ann
The only reason I think this is my Henry Haynes is because Sarah was also born in Tilehurst so not looking that good at the moment
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There is a marriage for a William Haynes to Ann Hunt on 17 Nov 1822, witnesses Harriett Carr and Charles Osborn. This looks likely for Henry's parents as his baptism on 21 Sep 1823 fits nicely. Unfortunately the records at that time did not state whether they were of the parish or another parish.
There are no previous or subsequent baptisms for any more of William's and Ann's children for ten years either side of the above marriage.
There are no burials for either within the probable age / date range.
There are no subsequent marriages for either suggesting the other spouse had died.
There is no record of a baptism for Sarah Haynes or any other spelling (Hains, Haines or Hayens) in the time frame which suggests she was either not baptised or was baptised elsewhere.
An Ann Haynes is a witness at the marriage of William Staniford and Sarah Bristow on 25 Oct 1840 which could be William's wife as no other Ann Haynes records.
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Thinking about the above, I think that your Henry is not my Henry John and William, his father, is not related to my known ancestry - leastways I can't find any reference to him and I did record all Haines of all spellings to see if there were links anywhere.
It's a mystery where Sarah was baptised and why not at Tilehurst.
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Thank you all for your help. Artifis you have done all you can, sorry for taking up your time. My mother had black hair and looked Italian/Spanish. Her sister had dark hair and a very dark skin and looked Italian. It became a family mystery how they got this colouring. it came from the Leach side and as my mothers grandfather married Sarah Haynes I thought it may have come from Sarah's mother. Henrys wife. Recently I did a DNA test to see if I can link up that way. It turns out I have 8% Sardinain blood so our suspicions may be correct. I may never know
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No problem, been an interesting exercise. Shame no record of Sarah at Tilehurst but that's the way it goes sometimes. The fact that William was a labourer would suggest that he'd moved to Tilehurst for work - there were a number of large estates and many large farms there at the time, It's likely that Henry followed him workwise and may also have had to move to where jobs were available.
Tilehurst at William's time was spread about a large area on the top of a hill, there was a focal point around the church but the village with shops developed a couple of miles or so away. The hill dropped away all round Tilehurst and immediately south of the church area was the edge of the escarpment dropping down to the River Kennet valley and the A4 Bath Road connecting London and Bath. A road came up the hill from the Bath Road and went past the church but before it did so it passed the house built in 1739 that I lived in for the first ten years of my life. It was built as an extension to a much older farm house, probably 100-150 years older, and was built specifically to be a local coaching inn call the Fox - the farm was Fox Farm. A cousin spotted a painting of the inn in a local antiques shop on a Sunday morning but when he went there mid morning Monday it had been sold which was a shame as it dated from the era when people were drawn with speech bubbles. Unfortunately the farm and our cottage on the end were pulled down mid 1950s by the local council to make way for a massive council housing estate - another farm house of the same period was also destroyed. Nowadays these would have been listed as apart from parts of the church were the oldest buildings in Tilehurst, luckily I have a photo of it dated early 1900s and a water colour painting painted about 1920 so something for my records.
Very interesting what your DNA results show, part of your question answered at least.
Feel free to come back to me if you want any other info.
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Yes it has been interesting and Tilehurst sound quite nice, must take a look on google earth.
i will keep at it and yes I will let you know if I get a firm result and I would ask you again if getting in a mess Thanks again
John
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John, have you looked through all the 1871 census pages for Tilehurst to see if you can spot the family? Sometimes a search doesn't pick people up because of mistranscription, or even a wrong surname because of a misunderstanding.
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Hi No I have not looked at this list. Where would I find this information.
Thanks
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I don't think there's anywhere you can view the 1871 census pages without a subscription, but we can look if you don't have access.
ETA I've looked through the first district, but didn't spot a likely family with a Sarah of about the right age. The enumerator's handwriting was diabolical though, so who knows!
District 2 is in another hand, and looks easier to decipher. I'll take a look tomorrow if I get time, unless someone else does it first.
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Thats great thank you so much. I have access to GenesReunited and family search but cant find her anywhere.
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Sorry, John, I've looked through 1871 Tilehurst and nothing stands out. It does pay to keep an open mind though, as I have found people recorded under the wrong name before.
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Never mind, thanks so much for taking the trouble.
Sarah was said to be been in Tilehurst. I believe she was married in St Michaels. Do you think this church will still keep their old records?
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Isn't this her marriage at St Peter's, Norbiton, Surrey.
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Yes without doubt. Thank
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Sorry, I forgot to mention that I'd checked for Sarah at Tilehurst under all headings, baptisms-marriages-deaths, but hadn't found any trace of her.
The problem at that time at Tilehurst was that the parish church was towards the southern end and lower populated area of what was a very large parish and I've found with some of my ancestors there that they found it nearer and obviously more convenient to go to one of the other parishes on the western, northern and eastern sides. The attached map shows the parish boundary with adjacent parish churches highlighted. Some of my ancestors seemed to have used Purley a lot rather than St Michaels.
The other problem I've found in the past generally is that people state they were born at such and such place whereas they were brought up there from a very early age but born elsewhere, this particularly occurred with agricultural labourers some of whom seemed to move about quite a lot I guess as the jobs occurred.
I've also attached a photo of the old house I lived in - the small bit at the far end - this was typical of the farms in that area so your William and Henry would have been familiar with such.
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Looks such a nice place. Is it still the same now?
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Unfortunately, like an almost identical farmhouse minus the far extension, it was pulled down by the council in the mid 1950s to make way for an enormous council housing estate, many farms were compulsorily purchased and thriving livelihoods taken away. Today the building would be listed and the council could not demolish but then they did just what they wanted. OK it was in dire need of modernisation, no running water only well water, no sewerage connection, gas lighting only down stairs candles upstairs plus building maintenance works but today with a bit of land it would be worth in excess of £1.5 million today at a conservative estimate.
For some reason the map of the parish didn't attach to my last post so I've tried again.
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The 1960 period was a disaster for this sort of thing.
I was brought up in Middlesbrough a Victorian town. The nearby town of Stockton on Tees was much older with the widest High Street in Britain. Elizabethan / Georgian/Victorian properties of quality, with the river running behind. It had interesting twisting alleyways. It all came down for a concrete shopping centre and overhead car park. Now its horrible. Yarm just outside Stockton was preserved. That is why I love Italy so much. In the main they preserve their heritage.
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We are appalling at doing that, we seem to be content to just smash up all our old buildings creating the generally monstrosities instead as you describe then moan that they have no character. Hastings was like that, they blitzed at least half of the old town and now moan that they haven't the winding streets and alleyways that Bristol for instance still has, the buildings in which are worth a fortune. Two of my ancestors in succession ran a pub there in part of the old town that still exists but it and two adjoining old properties were pulled down and some absolutely hideous 1960s block of flats built in their place, this has 'weathered' extremely badly and now looks only fit for demolition whereas the remaining old buildings of my ancestor's pub's age in the area still look brilliant.
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I put a lot of it down to sanitation and services. In the 50s and 60s newer homes all had running water and electricity, bathrooms and indoor toilets, whereas old houses did not, and needed extensive upgrading and renovation. So the trend was for people wanting to live in modern homes.
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Totally agree. The well water we had however proved to be purer than the water the local water company put into their mains at the pumping station, they came in all bluster etc. saying we must go on mains water, took some samples to prove it and had to come back with their tails between their legs to confess they were very wrong. :)
At Hastings it was all to put in a new 'relief' road that nobody really wanted and from what I understand didn't completely achieve its aim anyway.