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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: scanning on Monday 12 December 16 10:54 GMT (UK)
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Hi Everyone,
I am trying to find a birth record for a woman possibly born during 1887 (may be before or after that year) that apparently occurred in Nelson.
She was adopted, but it was quite possibly an undocumented adoption by family members.
Her name was Catherine Urania or Urania Catherine GRAY, but this would appear to have been given to her by her adoptive parents Archibald GRAY and Johanna ARNOLD.
DNA matches suggest a link to the ARNOLD family, but I have not found a likely candidate for her birth.
Any suggestions welcomed :)
Simon
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Hi Simon
Hmm ... bit of a difficult one :-\ ... have looked over numerous records (with still a few more to check).
I do have a "theory" about what may have occurred ... and will convey this to you via PM once I've finished checking.
~ Lu
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Hi Lu,
I do have a "theory" about what may have occurred ...
has me waiting with baited breath :)
Many thanks,
Simon
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Just a quick note to say that we're now on oxygen because our breaths are also baited (my extremities have gone blue and the tank's getting empty)... ;) ;D
Any progress? 8)
Spades
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Just a quick note to say that we're now on oxygen because our breaths are also baited (my extremities have gone blue and the tank's getting empty)... ;) ;D
Any progress? 8)
Spades
Hi Spades,
I must admit that I have cheated :)
Due to medical advice I was advised to start breathing again to avoid the extremities being removed ;)
Simon
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<puff...puff> My doctors on holiday playing golf... ;) ;D
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Hello Simon,
I'm sorry but I am not able to alleviate your present breathing difficulties with my message...... :D ;D
This is the lady whose birth you are enquiring about?
1954/22232 Evison Urania Catherine 67Y
1908/2495 Urania Catharine Gray Albert Edward Guelph Evison
A question: Are you able to tell us the date on which Urania Catherine celebrated her birthday?
Minniehaha.
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Hello Minniehaha,
Looks like I will need to see the doctor again ;)
That is indeed the lady in question. At this point I am not aware of when she celebrated her birthday. I will check to see if anyone knows.
I am aware that when she applied for National Super apparently they "found" a birth entry for her and there was some consternation that it meant Urania was born earlier than she thought. The 1887 birth year is consistent with her given age for both her marriage and death certs.
Simon
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Hi Simon
Further to your PM, as I have mentioned earlier, further checking needed to be done by me before reporting back to you. Some of that checking has been done ... but not all was able to be completed before the Christmas break due to an illness and a death - circumstances beyond my control and which "ate into" the time I would normally devote to volunteering in this forum.
I am aware that I've yet to reply further to you, but be assured that will be done just as soon as I am able.
~ Lu
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I hope that you will accept my condolences and also my apology for appearing pushy Lucy2 :-[
I am very appreciative of any assistance you are able to provide.
Simon
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Probate documents relating to the death of Johanna Mary GRAY, 15 May 1906, include statement by husband Archibald Alexander GRAY -
"...my said wife and I also took in infancy another niece whom we have treated as our adopted child namely Kate Urania GRAY now eighteen years of age"
What do you know about the lives of brothers and sisters of Johanna GRAY nee ARNOLD?
NZ BDM marriage
1886 / 2072 ARNOLD Catherine m. GARNER William
Catherine is a sister to Johanna. GARNER children are brought up by Archibald and Johanna, and named in same document, 1906. Catherine died (1901), and husband had abandoned family.
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1887/14496 Garner Mary Gray Catherine William
??
Minniehaha.
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Simon
The statement of Archibald Alexander GRAY, contained in the Probate document for Johanna Mary GRAY, forms part of the information I had planned to send onto you [namely the portion relating to the "adopted niece" ].
Further info is now being sent via PM.
~ Lu
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The relevant part of the document referred to in reply #10........
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9VJ-DWDR?i=224&cc=1865481
Minniehaha.
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Probate file of Archibald Alexander GRAY - Year: 1933 - able to be viewed at
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1865481
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Garner children........
1895/3459 Garner Archibald Catherine William -
1891/3424 Garner Charles James Catherine William -
1889/5342 Garner Catherine Myrtle Catherine William -
1890/10911 Garner William Archibald Catherine William -
1893/17726 Garner Alfred Ernest Catherine William -
1887/14496 Garner* Mary Gray Catherine William
*Her date of birth, 17.7.1887.
Minniehaha.
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Obituary for Archibald Alexander Gray-
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19331118.2.87?query=archibald%20alexander%20gray
The Inquest-
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19331124.2.10?query=archibald%20alexander%20gray
Funeral notice-
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19331118.2.11.6?query=archibald%20alexander%20gray
Wife’s death notice-
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19060516.2.4?query=archibald%20alexander%20gray
Funeral notice-
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19060516.2.66.1?query=johanna%20mary%20gray
Minniehaha.
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Thanks for the link to Johanna's Administration document wivenhoe. Fabulous stuff. :)
I had been basing my information on Archibald's Will, which I had purchased sometime in 2014. (Having them available through Family Search is such a good resource and sooooo much cheaper :) )
Minniehaha, Mary Gray Garner married William Reedy during 1911 and also appears to have gained the additional forename of Margaret. Thanks for the paperspast links as well. :)
Cheers,
Simon
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Hello Simon,
1954/22232 Evison Urania Catherine 67Y
1908/2495 Urania Catharine Gray Albert Edward Guelph Evison
A question: Are you able to tell us the date on which Urania Catherine celebrated her birthday?
Minniehaha.
Hi Minniehaha,
Dredging this up again, but I asked my cousin and she thinks that Urania celebrated her birthday about the 5th or 6th of October.
Cheers,
Simon
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Hello...
Is there much known about Urana ARNOLD b.1868. So far she seems not to have been mentioned in this thread.
Urana (daughter of Catherine and William Frederick ARNOLD) seems to be a younger sister of Johanna ARNOLD and Catherine ARNOLD, both previously mentioned in this thread.
Urana's 1889 marriage to Robert MUNDY was slightly after the supposed 1887/88 birth of Urania. Urana (as Eurana) and her husband Robert start a family from 1891 onwards.
Any daughter Urana had, pre or post-marriage, could be considered a niece of Johanna, as mentioned by Minnie in her reply #13.
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Or has Urana already been researched and subsequently discounted.
(Actually, having re-read the original post, we're looking for a missing birth record - not missing birth parents. So possibly not relevant)
Regards
Beg
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Information for Urana ARNOLD (MUNDY) has been sent (earlier) via PM, to "scanning".
~ Lu
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Information for Urana ARNOLD (MUNDY) has been sent (earlier) via PM, to "scanning".
Any specific reason a PM was used instead of sharing it with the board.
And is it worth searching for a birth record or has that already been PM'd too.
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Hi Beg,
I am primarily looking for a birth record for Urania Catherine Gray who we know was adopted by Johanna and Archibald. It is surmised that the mother could be Urana, but there doesn't appear to be any obvious registered births for her.
There is also a possibility that either of the youngest sisters, Margaret and Emma, could be the mother.
Cheers,
Simon
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Hello...
I am trying to find a birth record ... that apparently occurred in Nelson
Is it worth doing a District Keys search or has this already been done.
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Urania celebrated her birthday about the 5th or 6th of October
Is it worth searching the BDM NZ website by date or has this already been done.
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...they "found" a birth entry for her that meant Urania was born earlier than she thought
Any idea how much earlier. A 14 year old Urana would mean an 1882 birth. That's seven years of fiche (1882-1888 incl.) which would take a month or two to search. Would be a nuisance to do that and find it's already been done.
Regards
Beg
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I am primarily looking for a birth record for Urania Catherine Gray who we know was adopted by Johanna and Archibald. It is surmised that the mother could be Urana, but there doesn't appear to be any obvious registered births for her.
Simon
Hi Simon
* Have you tried Nelson Catholic Archives for a possible baptism record for Urania ?
It might also be worth a search of school records too which could possibly give a date of birth.
~ Lu
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NZ Birth
1872 - ARNOLD - Emma
Parents: William Frederick and Catherine ARNOLD
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Death
1952 - ARNOLD - Emma
Burial
Emma ARNOLD - Spinster
79 years
Died : 21 July 1952
Buried : Ruru Lawn Cemetery, Christchurch
http://heritage.christchurchcitylibraries.com/Cemeteries/index.asp
~ Lu
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Electoral
1938 - Christchurch East
MUNDY - Urana (indexed as "Urania) - married
ARNOLD - Emma - spinster
... residing at 251 Lichfield Street, Christchurch (other MUNDY family members also there).
1949 - Emma ARNOLD, spinster still at 251 Lichfield Street.
~ Lu
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Simon ... fairly sure that the following is Margaret ARNOLD bc 1870 - d/o Catherine and William Frederick ARNOLD.
NZ Birth
1870 - ARNOLD - Margaret Dinah
Parents: Catherine and William Frederick
[Date of Birth deduced from online index listing = 27 June 1870 ]
NZ Marriage
Margaret Ann ARNOLD - James QUINN -- Year: 1893
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Electoral - Wellington 1896
QUINN - James - railway guard
QUINN - Margaret - home duties ... both at Sydney Street
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Death
1897 - QUINN - Margaret Dinah - 26 years
[Date of Death : 26 June 1897 (the day before her 27th birthday) ]
Funeral Notice for Margaret QUINN (wife of James QUINN)
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP18970628.2.72.3
~ Lu
continues next >
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Margaret QUINN (nee ARNOLD ) - continued :
Seems to have been only one child ?
NZ Birth
1896 - QUINN - William James
Parents : Margaret and James QUINN
Death
1907 - QUINN - William - 13 years
Death Notice - William, s/o James QUINN
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19071122.2.99.2
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Burial
Karori Cemetery - Wellington - ROM CATH - Plot 37 B
Indexed as > QUIN - Margaret - 1897
... sharing same plot is her son, William QUINN - 13 years - buried 23 November 1907.
http://wellington.govt.nz/services/community-and-culture/cemeteries/cemeteries-search
~ Lu
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Thanks so much for all the details on Emma and Margaret :)
Fantastic sleuthing Lucy2 :) and very much appreciated.
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Hi Beg,
Urania celebrated her birthday about the 5th or 6th of October
Is it worth searching the BDM NZ website by date or has this already been done.
Quite possibly showing my ignorance with the BDM site, but it doesn't seem to permit wildcard searching.
...they "found" a birth entry for her that meant Urania was born earlier than she thought
Any idea how much earlier. A 14 year old Urana would mean an 1882 birth. That's six years of fiche (1882-1888) which would take a month or two to search. Would be a nuisance to do that and find it's already been done.
The birth record that was found apparently gave Urania an earlier birth date, but how much older or who her birth parents were is not known. It is thought that it made her "a couple of years" older.
Simon
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Hi again...
1887 birth year ... when she applied for National Super apparently they "found" a birth entry for her
Have you done a Births fiche search of 1952-ish (1887 + 65-ish).
EDIT: Have been reliably informed that pension age used to be 60. So 1947-ish
Just wondering if there's a revelatory notation of late registration scrawled somewhere in a margin. Would be handy.
Unfortunately there are no notations of note in the 1885 fiche. Am checking the 1884 and 1886 fiche over the weekend.
Worse comes to worst might need to do a website search for post-1952 late registrations (which would be horrendous as the yyyy/xxxxxx numbers are huge and each one has to be checked).
Can you think of any other surnames which we could try before it comes to that. Have tried both GRAY and ARNOLD from 1/1/1882 to 1/1/1889 but only three late registrations, and none of them Urania.
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Urania celebrated her birthday about the 5th or 6th of October
Have a list of two hundred-ish female births for Oct 5/6 1884/5/6. About a thousand names for +/- 3 days.
Next step is to find the registration district. Really easy (although monotonous) if you have access to ancestry. Unfortunately I don't. If you do, it's no problem to send you the (smaller) list. If not, I'll find the locations using the Keys later next week.
No names of interest in the list and nothing jumps out so I wouldn't get your hopes up.
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the BDM site doesn't seem to permit wildcard searching
The Family Search website has a sort of wildcard search option for their NZ Civil Indexes records. Haven't really looked at it but it seems a bit limited. Still miles better than the nothing currently offered by BDM NZ.
I use files which some of us have previously downloaded when doing other searches. Quite flexible. Happy to share.
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg,
Can you think of any other surnames which we could try before it comes to that. Have tried both GRAY and ARNOLD from 1/1/1882 to 1/1/1889 but only three late registrations, and none of them Urania.
I feel that the Urania Catherine is likely a name that Johanna gave to the baby and not a birth name. The three late registrations that you mentioned, were they in the Nelson area?
Next step is to find the registration district. Really easy (although monotonous) if you have access to ancestry. Unfortunately I don't. If you do, it's no problem to send you the (smaller) list.
Unfortunately, I am not a member of Ancestry either.
I can't thank you enough for the amount of effort you have put into this.
Simon
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The three late registrations that you mentioned, were they in the Nelson area?
Hi again...
Of the three late registrations, two were female. Both were registered in 1984. One born 11 Feb 1884 in Wellington, the other born 4 Feb 1883 in Dunedin. So neither match.
Am still slowly matching female births of 02 to 09 Oct 1884-87 to registration districts. Will take another week-ish to complete. Nothing of any real interest so far but will (eventually) give you the completed list so you can go through them.
Regards
Beg
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[...] the Nelson area?
Hi again...
Was at the library today so managed to use Ancestry and download all births registered in Nelson 1883-1887.
Attached at the bottom of this post is a text file listing the female births (and any male births I've overlooked).
Transcription errors are Ancestry, not mine.
Will get the other dozen or so districts in the Nelson area (Takaka, Motueka etc) next library visit(s).
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The file has a txt extension. Once you download it change the extension to csv
Once you've done that you can open the file in a spreadsheet programme and sort the columns by name or surname or quarter or whatever you find easiest.
Sorry about the hassle but Rootschat don't allow csv files to be uploaded.
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Still matching births to districts as mentioned previously. Still nothing promising. Will get back to you when done.
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg,
That is fabulous and using Ancestry through the library to access records hadn't even dawned on me.
Sorry about the hassle but Rootschat don't allow csv files to be uploaded.
Absolutely no hassle whatsoever, just grateful for the list.
Thanks heaps!
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Hi again...
The following are the only female births that I could find registered in the Nelson area on the 5th or 6th of October. I've searched 1883 to 1887.
FISHER, Ellen Elizabeth b.1885 - Takaka
NALDER,Bertha Bernice 1887 - Nelson
JAMIESON, Charlotte b.1885 - Motueka
ROBERTS, Lily Pearl b.1884 - Motueka (d.1956?)
TREGEA,Ethel Elizabeth b.1887 - Nelson
TREGEA,Gladys Agnes b.1887 - Nelson
I think they can all be discounted as, except for ROBERTS, possible marriages can be found for them on the BDM website.
Always likely I've missed a birth but there's no way of knowing until someone else repeats the search.
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I have an extended list covering 2-4 and 7-9 Oct 1883-1887 which I'll have a look through later. As ever, don't get your hopes up.
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As mentioned in an earlier reply, have you tried to find a baptism record. I'm reasonably sure that the birth isn't listed on the BDM website.
I'm less confident that it's not mentioned **somewhere** on a fiche but at the moment I'm not in a position to do a comprehensive fiche search.
Regards
Beg
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Hi Simon
* Have you tried Nelson Catholic Archives for a possible baptism record for Urania ?
It might also be worth a search of school records too which could possibly give a date of birth.
~ Lu