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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Monmouthshire => Wales => Monmouthshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: cardinalcanary on Tuesday 13 December 16 07:40 GMT (UK)
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Hello friends
Would someone be able to double check where by great grandma Cassie was born. I think she was born in 1875 and I'm pretty sure it was Monmouthshire. Some census say Bedwas, one says Caerphilly. However, there is a Catherine D Elias in the 1881 census born in Abercarn. Is this my great grandmother?
I think it must be as she has a sister called Edith in the census and names one of her daughters Edith (my great aunt).
Can I get a second opinion please?
Many thanks.
Stephen
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When did she marry?
Who did she name as her father on her marriage certificate?
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From FreeBMD:
Births, September qtr 1875
Newport Registration District vol 11a, page 235
Elias, Catherine Jane
Newport Registration District includes the parish of Bedwas.
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/newport2.html
The birth you found was for Catherine Dora Elias ;D
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From FreeBMD:
Births, September qtr 1875
Newport Registration District vol 11a, page 235
Elias, Catherine Jane
The birth you found was for Catherine Dora Elias ;D
On the GRO birth index the mother's name is listed as Harris for Catherine Jane
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There is an online tree that lists her as Catherine Jane and her marriage to Hiram Aston as 27 Dec 1896 Bedwelty, Tredegar, Monmouthshire.
Presumably they have the marriage cert and parents listed as Thomas Elias and Jane Mary Hannah Harries??
Kay
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I was hoping to find her, with parents, in 1881 and 1891 censuses? :-\
In order to confirm her place of birth.
In 1891 Cassie is a boarder.
In 1881 she cannot be found :-\
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Yes they disappear!!
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No idea whether this is a possible marriage of the parents but just in case there is a marriage 31 May 1873 at Eglwysilan of a Thomas Elias age 21 Collier to a Mary Hannah Harris age 20 both from Caerphilly with parents Daniel (poss David) Elias and Daniel Harris both colliers
Edit - this could be the couple pre marriage in 1871 with Thomas visiting the Harris family in Bedwas https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V55N-MFP
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Thanks KG and Kay.
The whereabouts of Cassie in 1881 has got me wondering about another story I have heard about her.
There is a family story that the family tried to emigrate to the US when Cassie was young. Possibly to Pennsylvania.
The story goes that a family member died on the ship so they came straight home again.
Perhaps they were mid-emigration in 1881.
I confirm that Cassie did marry my great grandfather Hiram Aston.
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A emigration, albeit temporary, could well be the reason the family disappear.
Found them I think on Anc New York Passenger Lists - Mary Hannah Elias Age 25 Arrival New York 4 Oct 1880 on Ship Arizona which departed from Liverpool Also with her were daughters Hannah age 5 and Catherine age 3.
Possibly not the same family but on the 1881 USA census there is a Thomas Elias born Wales 1850 and listed as married working as a coal miner in Ohio https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9YBG-RQQ?mode=g&i=20&cc=1417683
On the GRO Birth Index in addition to birth of Catherine Jane Elias in 1875 with mothers maiden name Harris also lists two more births in the Newport Reg District
Hannah Elias March Qtr 1874 Newport Vol 11A Page 249
Mary Ann Elias June Qtr 1878 Newport Vol 11A Page 245
Free BMD lists the possible death of a Mary Ann Elias Age 0 March Qtr 1879 Newport Vol 11a Page173
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Possibly unrelated but FreeBMD lists the death of a Mary Hannah Elias age 28 in Dec Qtr 1883 Crickhowell Reg District Vol 11b Page 75
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That is very good new info that I hadn't been able to track down.
Poor Cassie.
Assuming Thomas Elias is correct, he must have gone ahead to Ohio with the family following in 1880.
The older sister (Mary-Anne) dies in 1879 (before or after Thomas leaves I wonder?).
I don't know his long Cassie was in America but her mother Mary Hannah Harris dies back in Wales in 1883.
I wonder if Cassie is now an orphan or if her father is still around.
By age 16, Cassie is living at the Castle Hotel, Caerphilly and is listed as a barmaid.
What a life she must have had before she met my great grandfather Hiram.
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Yes - A lot of a young child to cope with - maybe lived with Harris grandparents who were living in Bedwas in 1881.
I wonder what happened to Hannah and Thomas?? Could Hannah be the child who died in the USA??
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I think this is the timeline (its a starting point).
Cassie Elias timeline
1850 - Thomas Elias (Cassie's father)born.
1854 - Mary Hannah Harris (Cassie's mother) is born.
1873 - Thomas Elias marries Mary Hannah Harris at Eglwysilan.
1873 - Cassie's sister Hannah is born.
1875 - Cassie is born
1878 - birth of sister Mary Ann
1879 - death of sister Mary Ann (aged 0)
1880 - Cassie travels to America with her mother Mary and older sister Hannah.
1882 - Cassie' s mother dies in Crickhowell when Cassie is 7 years old.
1891 - Cassie working as a barmaid at Castle Hotel, Caerphilly (aged 16).
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Yes -A lot of a young child to cope with - maybe lived with Harris grandparents who were living in Bedwas in 1881.
I wonder what happened to Hannah and Thomas?? Could Hannah be the child who died in the USA??
Yes. I wonder what became of Thomas and Hannah too.
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If the right person the death cert of Mary Hannah Elias might list if she was a widow :-\
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Re Thomas Elias just a thought. There is a possible Thomas Elias living in Bedwas in 1901 as below. Although he is younger than your Thomas in the 1901 census - he dies in 1905 and at the time his birth year is listed as 1852?
In 1891 I think the same Thomas and family are in Bedwas also below listed as Ellis. There is a possible marriage of a Thomas Elias to an Emma Matthews in June Qtr 1887 Pontypridd Vol 11a Page 609.
1901
Thomas Elias 47 Coal miner Rhymney, Monmouthshire
Emma Elias 49 Rudry, Glamorgan
Isaac Matthews 25 Coal Miner Machen, Monmouthshire
1891
Thos Ellis 38 Coal Miner Rhymney, Monmouthshire
Emma Ellis 36 Rudry, Glamorgan
Elizabeth Ann Ellis 16 Machen, Monmouthshire
Isaac Ellis 14 Coal Miner Machen, Monmouthshire
Elizabeth Gadd 20 Boarder
William Tony 42 Boarder
I can't see this Thomas pre 1891 and in 1861 your Thomas was living in Rumney, Tredeger, Monmouthshire :-\
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Thanks Kay
I think you are right about Thomas coming back to the UK.
I can't find any of them on passenger lists coming back from America to England. That would very useful to track down.
I wonder where sister Hannah ended up?
Will also have to investigate Cassie's step mother and half siblings
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The Thomas I posted in 1891 and 1901 is really only a possible without a confirmation of their marriage cert which sadly doesn't appear to be online.
Will continue to look for return trips but at the moment I can't see them
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Appreciating that some of this is best guess, this is where I have got to on the timeline now:
It seems to work out timewise. Now need to get the evidence.
Cassie Elias timeline
1852 - Thomas Elias (Cassie's father) born in Bedwelty, Monmouthshire
1854 - Mary Hannah Harris (Cassie's mother) is born.
1855 - Cassie's future step mother Emma Matthews born in Rudry, Glamorgan
1861 - father Thomas aged 6 living with family in Rumney near Tredegar
1871 - father Thomas (20) visiting family of Mary Hannah Harris (16)
1873 - Thomas Elias (22) marries Mary Hannah Harris (18) at Eglwysilan on 31st May.
1874 - sister Hannah is born
1875 - Cassie is born
1875 - Elizabeth Ann Matthews (Cassie's future step sister) born in Machen, Monmouthshire
1877 - Isaac Matthews (Cassie's future step brother) born in Machen, Monmouthshire.
1878 - birth of sister Mary Ann
1879 - death of sister Mary Ann (aged 0)
1880 - Cassie travels to America with her mother Mary and older sister Hannah.
1881 - possible death of sister Hannah in America. (No records found to prove this yet).
1881 - probable return to Wales (no passenger records found so far)
1882 - Cassie' s mother dies in Crickhowell when Cassie is 7 years old.
1887 - Cassie's father Thomas (35) marries second wife Emma Matthews (33) in Pontypridd.
1891 - Cassie (16) living at and working as a barmaid at the Castle Hotel, Caerphilly
1891 - Thomas (39) and Emma (36) Living in ... with their children.(Elizabeth Ann Elias 16 and Isaac Elias 14).
1896 - Cassie marries Hiram Aston in Bedwelty, Monmouthshire
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I have shared the story with my family and two of my sisters recall our great aunt Edith (one of Cassie's daughters) telling a horrible story of a child getting too close to a candle and setting fire to her night dress. The poor girl burned to death (when they were in America).
I fear that may have been poor Hannah.
I wonder whether there is any evidence.
My aunt has also told how my grandmother was always terrified of open fires and taught her children how to roll someone in a carpet to put out a fire should their clothes catch fire.
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The Thomas I posted in 1891 and 1901 is really only a possible without a confirmation of their marriage cert which sadly doesn't appear to be online.
Will continue to look for return trips but at the moment I can't see them
I think the evidence is pointing to Thomas Elias marrying Mary Hannah Harris but I will see if I can order a wedding certificate for them.
I wonder if their is a will for Thomas somewhere?
Thanks for your help.
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Send me a pm with your email and I can email you a copy of the marriage cert for Thomas Elias and Mary Hannah Harris which is online.
The probate for the Thomas Elias who died in 1905 is online on the Anc National Probate Calander/Index
Thomas Elias of Ty yn y pwll-cottage, Bedwas, Monmouthshire colliery haulier
Death Date - 24 Jul 1905
Probate Date 16 Aug 1905 granted to widow Emma Elias - £8
Registry Llandaff
I think you can purchase the probate https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate but given the small amount of the estate he may not have left a will
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Dear Kay
Apologies for not getting back to you on this thread before now. Thanks for your help.
My own father was taken into hospital at the time of this thread and died on 30/12. Hence, this thread fell off my radar for a bit.
Cassie grandson Vincent died last week and I was reminded to come back here and follow up.
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So sorry for your problems and hope things improve for you
Kay
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Dear Kay
Thank-you for your kind comments.
Things are starting to return to normal (or as normal as they can be under the circumstances).
Now, more than ever, I am eager to find out what I can about Cassie (my Mother's grandmother) so that I can tell her what the story of Cassie's life was.
Firstly I'd like to find when she returned from the USA and secondly, did her older sister die in America?
I also need to see if I can find what happened to her between coming back from America and turning up in a hotel as a barmaid when she was 16.
After that, I want to be sure I have her parents details correct. What happened to father Thomas? Did he go ahead of the family to America?
Where did he live in America and when did he come back to Wales?
Lots of questions.
Thanks
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Glad problems are starting to even out a bit.
I have had a fiddle and sadly haven't found anymore info on passenger lists for the family, their life in USA. Will continue to look but someone better with the US records may have more luck.
Kay
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Thanks Kay
I have headed over to the USA boards now to see if they have got any more info.
Best wishes
Stephen
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What an interesting story
I had a quick look on Genes Reunited for the shipping records of return to GB but didn't find them
Maybe the story of the sisters death would be in newspapers in USA as it was dramatic unfortunately I don't have access .
Good luck with your search and I'm sorry to hear of your recent losses
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Thanks Brigid
It is a fascinating and tragic story that I would love to get to the bottom of.
Thanks for your kind words about my recent bereavements.
Best wishes
Stephen