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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => West Lothian (Linlithgowshire) => Topic started by: Fordyce on Wednesday 14 December 16 17:12 GMT (UK)

Title: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Fordyce on Wednesday 14 December 16 17:12 GMT (UK)
Researching my BRASH line in Abercorn parish and Kincavil, Linlithgow parish, has resulted in some place names I cannot identify. I have found Whitelawhouse, Bank and Linn Mill in the far northeast corner of the parish (all extant since before 1700, all with various spellings) forming a cluster of my BRASHs there and in Newton and Dudingston.

But Walter BRASH in Golphole is recorded in 1754 (there are at least two records with this same place clearly spelt). He was born est1632 in Abercorn and survived well past 1666. Also recorded is Hen(d)ry MEIKLE in Hadyequil (in 1703) or Hadyonquiel (in 1754), both reasonably clearly written. He was born est1640 in Abercorn.

Can anyone identify these locations, or say if/where they've come across these placenames?

Others that have turned up are Shillinghill (1720s) and Mackinhall (1700s).

My BRASHs end up with what must be two brothers Patrick BRASH born est1599 and Walter BRASH born est1608. Knowing where these places are/were would help with distinguishing the BRASH clusters in Kincavil, Newton and also Philpstoun. I've looked up all the maps at the NLS. Most published trees are the usual guesswork and forcefit and are interesting rather than reliable.
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Skoosh on Wednesday 14 December 16 19:47 GMT (UK)
Fordyce, I'm sure I've passed a Brash's Close in Queensferry. A Shillinghill was nothing to do with shillings, it's from shelling hill. When corn (oats) were threshed with flails it was winnowed on small hills, the wind carried the chaff clear of the grain.

Skoosh.
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: DonM on Thursday 15 December 16 23:17 GMT (UK)
Who are the parents of Walter b 1754?

Don
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Fordyce on Sunday 18 December 16 19:00 GMT (UK)
Don, the 1754 mention of Walter BRASH was not his birth. It was in the rights to Mortcloth in the Abercorn OPR, a really useful record, thus: "Margaret Meikle relict of George Brash Smith yr has aright both by her husband he being son to Walter Brash in Golphole as also by the said Henry Meikle her father a Contr in person".

George BRASH was a smith in Newton, who married Margaret MEIKLE 12 Jun 1694 Abercorn. Most probably he was bpt 7 Jul 1658 in Abercorn, a witness being George Dundas of Duddingstone, and his father being Walter BRASH. His mother would be Christian JOHNSTONE. Although there is no record of the father Walter BRASH's baptism, he seems to fit into a convenient slot left by seven known children baptised 1629-1649 to Walter BRASH, all born in Abercorn, latterly stated to be Newton there - hence my estaimate of 1632.

Knowing where Golphole was might help support or refute this.
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: ThrelfallYorky on Saturday 06 May 17 14:55 BST (UK)
I've only got an Agnes Brash b c 1847, who married into a line of my family in 1864 from Linlithgow, so noty very likely to be of much use or help, sorry.
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Rakiura John on Tuesday 18 July 17 03:33 BST (UK)
Fordyce, just found this Thread.
I have an Isabel Brash, died 1829, who married James Morison at Abercorn (her home Parish) on 12 Dec 1783 (both buried Ecclesmachan).
Based on their childrens' names, I suspect my Isabel is daughter of John Brash & Jean Richie of Abercorn, whose children were Alexander (b1750), Walter (b1752), Isabel (b1755), Margret (b1757), & Janet (b1764).
Is this the same Brash family as yours?
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Rakiura John on Tuesday 18 July 17 06:13 BST (UK)
I was on Scottish Writing . com recently which has a Letter Finder in its Coaching section. It has some interesting pointers on deciphering old handwriting.
It points out that what many would recognise today as the letter "y" , could be the archaic letter "thorn" which fell out of use because of the standardisation of letters by printers. Thorn is represented by the sound "th". That is why you often see signage like "Ye Olde Shoppe" - but people of old didn't actually say "Ye", they still pronounced it as "The", like we do today.
That website also suggests that "qu" might be written for a "w".
So your placename Hadyequil, might today be written Hadthewiel?
A wiel or weel is a pool or a deep still part of a river - which might narrow down its location?
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: ThrelfallYorky on Tuesday 18 July 17 15:42 BST (UK)
Now that's added to the sum of my knowledge. I knew of the "Thorn"/Y, but not the other. I think I'll have to have a look at that site - sounds fascinating. Thanks, Rakiura John.
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 19 July 17 09:58 BST (UK)
That website also suggests that "qu" might be written for a "w".
So your placename Hadyequil, might today be written Hadthewiel?
A wiel or weel is a pool or a deep still part of a river - which might narrow down its location?
Hmmm. I have quite often seen 'qu' in old documents where you would see 'wh' today, but I can't think of ever having seen 'qu' where you would use 'w' today. But it's a good suggestion. Fordyce, have you tried Scotland's Places https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk ?
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Fordyce on Thursday 20 July 17 23:46 BST (UK)
Forfarian, yes ScotlandsPlaces has been checked, including Poll Tax records. Also all the available old maps at the NLS. There is nowhere that looks remotely like Golphole or Had...etc.

I also found a third reference, in the Mortcloth Rights of 1754, to a William Russell who was a quarrier and indweller in Hadyquiel. The context is such that I infer that the place was very close to a feature marked in the 1st edition OS maps as Old Quarry on the coast just west of Society.

Everything points towards my Brashes being clustered in the far north-east corner of Abercorn parish in the early 1700s, and probably for a time beforehand. Poll Tax shows my 6xgtgdfather George Brash smith & wife in Dudingstone which is right up there.

Rakiura John, I have your Isabel Brash in my tree, yes. George Brash bpt 1658 (s/o Walter Brash in Golhole) marr Margaret Meikle in 1694. Their eldest child George Brash b 1696 marr Agnes Nicol in 1722; it's been claimed that their third child John Brash bpt 1726 married Jean Ritchie (whose husband was a Wright in Newton), but I haven't confirmed this, and there is an anomaly in that this particular George Brash line are generally Smiths, with another contemporary George Brash line being generally Wrights, so John Brash h/o Jean Ritchie could belong in that other line. My line comes down from the second son John Brash bpt 1699 (who was a Smith).

That distinction might sound pedantic, but it does seem to be a real difference. What have you got on John Brash / Isobel Ritchie?
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 20 July 17 23:54 BST (UK)
Forfarian, yes ScotlandsPlaces has been checked, including Poll Tax records. Also all the available old maps at the NLS. There is nowhere that looks remotely like Golphole or Had...etc.
I was pretty sure that you would have checked it :(

Er .... have you tried asking Hopetoun Estate? I wouldn't hold your breath if you do, however. I wrote them a letter in 1989 and despite reminding them every 10 years since then of their promise to reply I am still waiting. I understand that their archivist left and I do not know if he has been replaced.
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Fordyce on Friday 21 July 17 09:12 BST (UK)
I tried to deal with them in 2003, trying to find out more about my Shatton family farm at Totley Wells down the road, and despite receiving an encouraging holding reply, never heard a chirrup since, despite reminders and even a visit - I've found that if you turn up in person and still get nowhere you really are flogging a dead horse. So, this time around, no.

This time around, I think I've got sufficient from old maps and poll tax rolls to conclude my Brashes led back to this north-eastern corner of Abercorn (being the estate of George Dundas of Duddingston [a house a little to the east of Newton, not the parish/village in the middle of Edinburgh *]) rather than to other contemporary Brash clusters in Philpston and Linlithgow further west. There's an argument that these three clusters meet with two brothers: Abercorn's Kirk Elder Walter Brash b c1608 and Kincavil's tenant Patrick Brash b c1599 but surviving evidence is too thin on the ground to be sure. I was rather pleased to get this far back!

* See http://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/west-lothian-os-name-books-1855-1859/west-lothian-volume-04/19 where, by chance, you'll see a reference to Mr Thomas Chattie Totley Wells. He is the son of my 3xgtgdfather Thomas Shatton, the surname having part-evolved on its way to Chatham. My thinking is that Golphole and Hady..etc disappeared under Hopetoun's eventual expansion of their Deer Park.

Regarding the 'y' thorn, I should've added that the 'y' in Hady..etc is clearly and neatly written as a standard 'y' with none of the features of the thorn (as per images on www.scottishhandwriting.com/cmLFth.asp), and in one case is identical to the 'y' in Henry in the same entry - see attachment. So, a worthy suggestion but I don't think it applies in this particular case.
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Rakiura John on Saturday 22 July 17 03:56 BST (UK)
Fordyce, thanks for your replies.
The 1749 Abercorn Marriage Record for John Brash & Jean Richie only describes them as “both in this Parish”, but the 1755 Abercorn Bap Record for their daughter Isabel gives the confirmation you seek by describing her parents as “John Brash, Wright in Newtoun, and Jean Richie”. It certainly seems that trades such as Wrights were carried on through the generations (for instance daughter Isabel's spouse James Morrison, and all their three sons Alexander, John & James, were Wrights), so such occupations should certainly carry weight. As your John Brash came from a line of Smiths rather than Wrights, I agree that there is a good chance that my John Brash is not from your particular Brash line. Does the fact he lived at Newton have a bearing?
I have nothing further on John Brash & Jean Richie but I need to pursue Abercorn MIs when I next get off our Island to visit a mainland library. The above mentioned Bap Record for Isabel describes her as “fourth daughter”, so there must be 3 older sisters that I haven't found and these might appear on a family MI.
If you would like copies of above, let me know.
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Rakiura John on Saturday 22 July 17 08:39 BST (UK)
Fordyce, another thought. Do you recognize the witnesses on Isabel's Bap Record below as having any connection to your Brash line?
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Fordyce on Saturday 22 July 17 11:39 BST (UK)
Rakiura John, thanks for the info.

1. The witnesses are James Haston and Robert Ramsay. Robert Ramsay witnessed their previous child on 12-9-1752. John Hausten was a wright in Duntarvie when he witnessed their final child on 14-5-1764. Presumably the Haston/Hausten are brothers. I know nothing else about these witnesses.

2. The statement that Isabel was a 4th daughter raises a problem - going by my current notes, she cannot possibly be. Rather than explain here, I've extracted my notes, as updated with your info, and you can see what I mean. You'll also see I have OPR images for two of the other four baptisms - you're welcome to those. Can you send me a PM with your email address, it'll be easier to swop info that way.

3. The 'fit' of the various John Brashes is vexing. So much is circumstantial and it doesn't help that, seemingly, the women married young and the men married much later. Your wright John Brash's first child was born 8-5-1750, my smith John Brash's last child was born 15-7-1751, so they co-existed in Newton. The latter's wife Christian Greenlaw married age 18, her husband being 34 (says me) which of course raises the possibility of him being on his second marriage (although I've decided not). The same possibility arises for your John Brash.

4. Finding the parentage of Jean Ritchie would be a help!
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: dowdstree on Sunday 23 July 17 11:39 BST (UK)
Not any help in identifying places but my husband has both the surname of Brash and Shatton in his ancestry from the same area.

1.  Thomas Shatton born around 1739 married to Elizabeth (Betty) Brash
2.  Thomas Shatton born 21/4/1781 baptised at Abercorn died 2/7/1851 at Totley Wells - surname has now become Chattie.
3.  George Chattie born around 1821 died 16/3/1857 at Newton buried at Abercorn.
4.  Alexander Chattie born 16/3/1857 died 17/7/1916 by this time the surname has changed to Chattam.

Then my husband's grandfather and his mother who both used the surname of Chatttam.

Dorrie
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Fordyce on Sunday 23 July 17 19:11 BST (UK)
Hi Dorrie,

It looks as though the first use of Chatham was in 1852 in Edinburgh, my gtgtgdfather by now in Glasgow quickly following suit. Yet the George Chattie & Helen Gowans family tree, your line, went with Chattam initially, only to end up (after some to-ing and fro-ing) as Chatham as far as I can see. My records have George Chattie's death as 11-3-1858 rather than 16-3-1857 when twins Thomas & Alexander were born. Just to confuse things, Alexander's surname on his death on 17-7-1916 is given as Chatty - by his son who signed himself as R Chatty! Can you tell me down which of Alexander's nine children your husband descends?

I really don't know why the surname changed. Any theories?

Chatta, Chattah and Chatto have been used too. How the pronunciation evolved is also uncertain - Shatton/Shotton obviously start with a soft 'sh' as in 'shatter', yet certainly now Chatham and I expect Chattie as well as Chattam have a hard 'ch' as in 'chatter'. Yet, I was surprised to hear just recently a reference in a TV documentary by no less than Prince William to the Queen's niece Lady Sarah Chatto which he pronounced with a soft 'sh' - which threw a different light upon things. There were Chattos around Abercorn and indeed, and maybe because of this, Thomas Shatton is recorded as Thomas Chatto in 1797 Horse Tax records at Duntarvie, Abercorn. Makes one wonder whether Chattie is merely a diminuitive of Shatton, first being pronouced with a soft 'sh' which gradually evolved to a hard 'ch', I can only think the evolution to Chatham was for vanity reasons, maybe something to do with Chatham the dockyard or Sir William Pitt, 1st Earl of Chatham, with Chattam being simply a misspelt version bearing in mind Chatham is pronounced.

The origins of Shatton itself are mysterious. But there is a village in England, in Derbyshire, of that name, in the parish of Hope. Bearing in mind Thomas Shatton was on the Hopetoun estate, and there were several Thomas Shattons in Shatton, I thought I might have cracked it, except that Hope parish has nothing to do with the Hope family of Hopetoun - or does it?
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: dowdstree on Tuesday 25 July 17 12:39 BST (UK)
Hi Fordyce,

Death of George Chattie was 11/3/1858 - my error gave the twins date of birth instead.

The spelling of the surname seems to vary from census to census and down the generations. Very interesting your information on the Chattos.

To date I have only got 5 children for Alexander as follows -

John born 1879 died 1881
Alexander born 1880 died 1942 (Edinburgh) mu husbands grandfather.
Robert born 1883 died 1944
Thomas born 1887 killed in action 1915 WW1
Margaret born 1891 died 1971

Wonder who I have missed ? Perhaps you could let me know.

Also who was your gtgtgfather ?

Dorrie
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Fordyce on Wednesday 26 July 17 00:17 BST (UK)
Hi Dorrie,
Four others:
- George Chattam, born 26-2-1877 died 21-4-1877 of hereditary syphilis
- George Chattam, born 17-5-1885 died 22-12-1886 of scarlet fever
- William Chattam, born 25-3-1889 died 9-10-1889 of chronic diarrhoea
- Sarah Chattam, born 30-3-1893 died 1-6-1900 (as Sarah Chatham) of pulmonary phthisis

Oddly, son John b 1879 was recorded as Chattie upon birth and death.
I take it you've got wind of dau Margaret's conviction for bigamy in 1918?!

My gtgtgdfather is John Chattie b 1809/10 Abercorn s/o Thomas Shatton & Agnes Chapman. I've never found a birth record for him (nor his siblings for that matter, even though the Abercorn OPR has records of the deaths of their youngsters and there is an MI in Abercorn churchyard, so they were established church). The first record of John is when, as John Chattie a joiner at Liberton Dams, he married Mary Pentland from Little France on 28-11-1833 in Liberton. After a couple of children in Liberton, they had moved to Glasgow by 25-5-1837. It seems to be in the 1850s when he and his entire family took to Chatham.
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 26 July 17 09:05 BST (UK)
Last year I learned (the hard way, but not me personally) that chronic diarrhoea is one of the symptoms of cancer of the pancreas. The tumour inhibits the production of the enzymes necessary for digestion of food, and the sufferer dies of starvation/malnutrition. Though in the case of William, who died in infancy, cancer was probably not the cause of his diarrhoea.
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Fordyce on Wednesday 26 July 17 15:23 BST (UK)
By coincidence I've just finished reading Guthrie Hutton's short history of Shale Oil (2010) as well as Harry Knox's tour de force Vanished Railways of West Lothian (2017) (and have seen the recent TV program on James 'Paraffin' Young). This Chattam family lived in and just off Greendykes Road which was right in the middle of the shale fields. Others will know better than I do I'm sure, but these houses were built for the workers by the various Oil and Shale companies and were generally of desparately appalling quality.

In 1901 the Chattams lived at 48 Stewartfield, one of 92 Broxburn Oil Co's houses "cradled by the Albyn crude oil works bing, a location that even the most inventive estate agent would have had difficulty putting a gloss on" (Guthrie Hutton). A report into the state of this housing in 1914 was scathing - toilets newly installed (none before), one to two families, were opposite each other on gable ends, offering no privacy or decency, and should be condemned even though new. There's a photo in his book on page 40 of Stewartfield, and others of Greendykes Road.

Their father Alexander Chattam at this time was a Retortman (from 1882 to 1891 at least) presumably either chucking shale in at the top or retrieving burnt shale at the bottom to go to the bing. At least he wasn't a miner.

The Museum of the Scottish Shale Oil Industry is now a must-see. It's industry which I hardly knew existed until recently. At one time, the area had the biggest oil refinery In The World no less. Fascinating stuff!
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: dowdstree on Wednesday 26 July 17 17:38 BST (UK)
Thanks for your information Fordyce.

The 1911 Census, which I have just looked at on SP,  shows that Sarah and Alexander had 11 children born alive of which 4 were still living. With the others you kindly gave me that means there are 2 still to trace. Well that will be for another day probably when I visit SP.

Poor wee George dying from hereditary syphilis.

I am going to send you a PM if you don't mind regarding Margaret and Alexander.

Thanks again.



Dorrie
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Southpaw58 on Tuesday 19 June 18 05:23 BST (UK)
Hi Fordyce
This is my first post on Rootschat as I noticed that you have been searching for Brash's in Abercorn.  I am tracing my father's ancestors and have been led to the same location.  In one of your posts you said that you have found the location of Whitelawhouse.  Are you able to advise what source you used to find this?  I have had no luck despite looking at a lot of NLS and Genuki old maps.  Any guidance appreciated.  It's great to discover someone else searching for the same line.  Kind regards 
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Fordyce on Tuesday 19 June 18 08:48 BST (UK)
Welcome to RootsChat!

Whitelawhouse certainly wasn't easy to find - but perseverence paid off: see here http://maps.nls.uk/view/74400289 which is part of William Forrest's map of Linlithgowshire, 1818.  Whitelawhouse is right on the shore by the pier east of Hopetoun House by Society.

I've noted it's also recorded in John Thomson's Atlas of Scotland, 1832, although I don't seem to have kept any link.

And I have also noted that "in 1724, Societie (sic) and Whitelawhouse were distinct co-existing places, but by the time of the OS, the location of Whitelawhouse was Society Park, presumably Whitelawhouse as a separate entity had been subsumed into the Hopetoun House policies". I must have got this info from the 1724 list of Mortcloth Rights in the Abercorn OPR, where Whitelawhouse is recorded at 'Why8layhouses' [sic], various earlier recordings being Whyllahouses and similar-ish variations.

What line are you researching? I have Whitelawhouse in the context of Mathew Brash & Margaret Potter who for a long time people have asserted are the parents of John Brash h/o Christian Greenlaw (my 5xgtgdparents). I have decided this isn't right, evidence indicating instead that John Brash is s/o George Brash & Margaret Meikle.
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Southpaw58 on Tuesday 19 June 18 09:34 BST (UK)
Hi Fordyce
Wow - wasn't expecting such a quick reply - thank you!  I was looking in earlier maps so greatly appreciate that.  Your perseverence is impressive.  I traced my father's line back to John Brash and Mary Wallace - no official marriage but their first son is the direct line to us.  The details I have from graves and death records suggest his father is John Brash h/o Janet McKomy married in Abercorn in 1753 based on age at death.  That John was a soldier and I've concluded I will need to visit The National Archives to search for any additional information that might help me firm up my conclusion.  Based on the broader top down research I have done on the Brashes in Abercorn, my hypothesis is that John (h/o Janet McKomy) could be the son of John Brash and Janet Thornton and therefore traced further back via Alexander Brash/Katherine Findlason to the Walter Brash you mention as one of the two Walter/Patrick brothers.  There are so many John Brashes that my head is spinning!  I've seen some references to Mathew Brash but some of them seem based on conjecture rather than evidence and I'd rather see what the data says.  Have you traced John Brash and Christian Greenlaws son John?  So nice to connect with you.
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Fordyce on Wednesday 20 June 18 09:15 BST (UK)
Hi Southpaw58, just clicked through on a notification!

Ah! John Brash & Mary Wallace.... The couple that every descendant has got stuck on. I found it too difficult too, so this is stirring the embers with a stick hoping something will result! I take it the son you're referring to is John Brash recorded as born 26 Aug 1792 Abercorn (and he married Christine Clark).

Untangling all the John Brashes has been a complete headache for me too - in fact I wonder whether I've succeeded. There are other factors in the building of my Brash edifice, but one has been to distinguish between Brashes in Abercorn who were wrights and who were smiths. That is a very subtle distinction but it's had its uses. This occupational distinction comes into play later - read on.

No, I have nothing on John Brash s/o John Brash (smith in Newton) & Christian Greenlaw. What I have decided is that his sister Elizabeth Brash is my 4xgtgdmother Betty Brash, making a bit of a judgment on available evidence (there are other candidates locally but none in Abercorn, including ** below). My smith/wright distinction is no help because she married Thomas Shatton who was always a farmer - which in fact implies I should perhaps have made a third distinction: smith/wright/farmer.

Re your John Brash h/o Mary Wallace, I've long had five candidate parents with John Brash * & Janet McComie/McKomy being very much the prime candidates. I have noted John Brash & Agnes Smale (who marr Kirkliston 8 Nov 1717) as candidates to be his parents, such that he would have been born 5 Dec1718 Kirkliston.   * You say that this John Brash was a soldier. Any other indications of his or his son's occupation?

Re John Brash & Janet Thornton (or Thorntoun). This John Brash was a wright in Duntarvie then in Newton. Mortcloth Rights records show that he was s/o Alexander Brash in Lynnmiln and that proves him to be s/o Alexander Brash h/o Katherine Findlayson. Which is something definite for once. I have very little on the fate of John Brash & Janet Thornton and their six children.

But so far, mainly so confusing and inconclusive. It gets worse - or perhaps better.... A Mary Wallace, I believe your Mary Wallace, died 26 Jan 1797 in Crawstone, Abercorn, followed by Archibald Brash a child (presumably her child?) on 29 May 1797 in Crawston too.Then I have her widower John Brash remarry to Elisabeth/Betty Brown 6 Jan 1798 in Kirkliston (also recorded in Abercorn) - and this couple then turn up in the 1841 census in Milton, Dalmeny, John Brash being a farmer.

Meantime, they had had a daughter Bathia (later Elizabeth) Brash in 1802 at Crawstone (and possibly a second in 1804).

I then find the widow Betty Brash (née Brown or Broun) over at Easter Duntarvie in 1851, age 78 with a [step] gdchild Agnes Aiken (d/o John Aitken & Marion Finlayson where the latter is d/o William Finlayson & Agnes Brash one of the John Brash Mary Wallace family group). She died, as Betsy Brown, age 81 5 Dec 1852 in Duntarvie, probably Easter Duntarvie. I've been told that 'your' John Brash, who died 1 Apr 1850, died at Duntarvie, hence probably also Easter Duntarvie. Easter Duntarvie is where my Chatties had been tenant farmers from 1787 until 1821 when they moved to Totleywells.  I don't know whether this is anything more than a coincidence of place.

In 1841 John Brash was a farmer, but in 1895 a gtgdson claims he was a quarryman. But there's that farming distinction again. In fact, I have temporarily allocated your John Brash (farmer in 1841) with three siblings, those three seemingly all children of one 'John Brash farmer in Newton'. And this 'John Brash farmer in Newton' might be h/o Agnes Thomson (**) having married previously. By this time I'm going round in circles.

How much of this accords with your research?

Note that on at least two occasions, 'Bethia' or 'Bathia' has become 'Elizabeth'. I suppose that's not too exceptional.

A further thing to mention in passing is that Bethia/Elizabeth Brown Finlayson, Marion's sister, married George Chapman 26 Feb 1855 Dalmeny. And he is a gdson of Mungo Chapman & Agnes McKinley. And Mungo's sister Agnes Chapman married Thomas Shatton who is s/o Thomas Shatton & Betty Brash. Agnes Chapman & Thomas Shatton (whose surname became Chattie then Chatham or Chattam) are my 3xgtgdparents. The Brown name keeps popping up.

Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Southpaw58 on Thursday 21 June 18 04:19 BST (UK)
Hi Fordyce
My initial response was rejected as too long so I have copied it to an attachment and highlighted my comments in Red rather than re-do the response.  I hope this works.
Regards
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Fordyce on Friday 22 June 18 16:05 BST (UK)
Hi Southpaw58, the attachment worked fine.

I'll take each point in turn. Hopefully <<...>> will point to your reply.

<<Colonel Halkett’s regiment.>>
Was John Brash discharged when he married? If he served after 1760 his eventual discharge might be recorded in the National Archives at Kew under the WO 97 series.

<<There is also a death record 17/10/1798 for a Betty Brash Duntarvie.>>
I believe this to be recording the death of my 4xgtgdmother Betty Brash wife of Thomas Shatton. He is first recorded in Duntarvie on 18-12-1787 then through to his death 7-2-1816, and their daughter's death (Betty Chattie, born Betty Shatton in 1774) is recorded there on 27-7-1798, both deaths warranting a mortcloth at six shillings.

<<There is also an Elizabeth born around 1803 Abercorn who marries James Marshall 29/5/1827>>
This is Bathia Brash, I am sure.
This is the transcription I was given: "19-3-1895 12.20pm Elizabeth Brash Marshall age 92 [correct if Bathia], widow of James Marshall farm-labourer, at Philpstoon Abercorn, of John Brash quarryman & Elizabeth Brash ms Brown (both deceased). Cause: bronchitis 5d. Inf: James Marshall gson 508 Keppochhill Rd Glasgow [signed]." - D-1895-661(Abercorn)-5. I took a photo of their MI in Abercorn churchyard. It reads "Erected in 1886 / by / Robert Marshall / N.Z. / bro.William d. 12-7-1854 age 17 / father James Marshall 7-4-1879 age 82 / mother Elizabeth Brash 19-3-1895 age 92".

Did you know that Mary Brash d/o John Brash & Christina Clark had a paternity battle in 1843with a Hugh Fleming before marrying her cousin John Marshall s/o Elisabeth Brash & James Marshall?

<<maybe a seventh child Jane/Jean on 2/9/1804 in Abercorn (although this BC shows the parents as John Brash and Isobel Brown.>>
Rather than Betty being one of the seven, there is this Archibald I mentioned who died in 1797. This seems to confirm he was her child, because in this way Mary Wallace had four children and Betty Brown had three, making up the seven. Isobel and Elizabeth are frequently reckoned to be synonymous, so I think this justifies the mother being Betty Brown. There isn't any birth record for Archibald but that might be because all the other children's births weren't recorded until after Mary Wallace's death and possibly somewhat later - they are in a Register of Copy Certificates in the OPR so out of their natural placement.

Addition: I found Jane Brash's death registration (15/11/1870). Her mother is Betsey Brown and her father was unequivocally a dairyman. That settles it namewise. Occupationally odd though, although a dairyman can be a farmer looking after cows (needless to say....).

<<The Death record of Agnes ... says her father John was a quarryman....>>
Not surprisingly, my information on these family groups is incomplete, so it's new news to me that John Brash is recorded as a quarryman. Given that 'dairyman' was recorded first in time, could that have been subsequently misunderstood by later informants as 'quarryman'? No, I don't so either, but he was definitely a farmer in 1841. Also, I found a home for that 5 year old William Leitch: Janet Brash was either married to or had children by a Leitch - she was visiting her son John Leitch in 1861.

<<There is a grave in Abercorn erected.....>>
Yes, it's the best indicator of his parentage, and must mean he was around in 1841 which record at Milton Dalmey tallies - apart from him being a farmer - however there's no reason a retired quarryman wouldn't turn his hand at a spot of cultivation or dairying and call himself a farmer.

<<In relation to John B and Agnes Thomson, I have not found more information on this family to date, over and above the marriage and birth information. I have seen the reference to John Brash a farmer in Newton and you could be right. If any of their three children lived beyond 1855 (unlikely?) or left a detailed grave record might provide more data points?>>
I cannot find anything.
<<Could the John Brash (h/o Agnes Thomson) be the son of John B and Christian Greenlaw?>>
Could be thus marr 17-8-1758 Abercorn to Agnes Thomson, or equally thus marr 16-6-1758 Abercorn to Jannet Cummin. There's nothing I have found to say one way or another.

That's all!

You're most certainly not wasting my time. Far from it. I'm not entirely happy with my placement of Betty Brash w/o Thomas Shatton within the Brash dynasty, and resolving the placement of John Brash & Mary Wallace is likely to help.


Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Southpaw58 on Monday 25 June 18 04:43 BST (UK)
Hi Fordyce
Thanks again for the detailed reply.  Responses below:

Was John Brash discharged when he married?
RESPONSE: The record for his marriage to Janet McKomy shows him as a soldier at the time of his marriage in 1753.  When their two sons are born in 1767 and 1769 he is no longer a soldier but in Royston Mains Cramond - no specific occupation noted.  I have not found a candidate record on FindMyPast or Ancestry.  The search of TNA suggests that there might be a muster roll for the regiment he was in but these records can only be viewed on site.

<<There is also an Elizabeth born around 1803 Abercorn who marries James Marshall 29/5/1827>>
This is Bathia Brash, I am sure.
RESPONSE - Ah, right - I had thought Bathia was a separate child - your logic sounds correct.

Did you know that Mary Brash d/o John Brash & Christina Clark had a paternity battle in 1843with a
Hugh Fleming before marrying her cousin John Marshall s/o Elisabeth Brash & James Marshall?
RESPONSE - Yes - it was trying to reconcile census entries that led me to that data.

Isobel and Elizabeth are frequently reckoned to be synonymous, so I think this justifies the mother being Betty Brown.
RESPONSE - Ah, I had not heard that - but I can see it could be a variant.

There isn't any birth record for Archibald but that might be because all the other children's births weren't recorded until after Mary Wallace's death and possibly somewhat later - they are in a Register of Copy Certificates in the OPR so out of their natural placement.
RESPONSE - Thanks for clarifying the meaning of Register of Copy Certificate.

<<The Death record of Agnes ... says her father John was a quarryman....>>
Not surprisingly, my information on these family groups is incomplete, so it's new news to me that John Brash is recorded as a quarryman. Given that 'dairyman' was recorded first in time, could that have been subsequently misunderstood by later informants as 'quarryman'? No, I don't so either, but he was definitely a farmer in 1841. Also, I found a home for that 5 year old William Leitch: Janet Brash was either married to or had children by a Leitch - she was visiting her son John Leitch in 1861.
RESPONSE: My records show that Janet (D/o John and Betty Brown) married John James Leitch (quarryman) 18/5/1821 - He was from Linlithgow and she was from Dalmeny.  From the OPR's they had three children - the eldest (John) who was born 26/5/1821 in Abercorn although the surname shows as Leich.  I have not researched that line any further at this point. 
On the references to Quarryman/Dairyman - The children of John B and Mary Wallace - Agnes died Dalmeny 12/9/1870 - widow of William Finlayson and her DC says her father John Brash was a quarryman.  Their other two surviving children died before 1855 so their DC's don't reference parents.  The children of John B and Betty Brown - Janet died 28/7/1865 Widow of John  Leitch and the DC says her father John was a quarryman.    Elizabeth/Bathia as discussed - I think her DC shows her father as a quarryman.  It was the DC of Jane/Jean which seemed to suggest Dairyman which threw me.  But I think we can safely assume we are talking about the same John given confirmation of parents names.

<<There is a grave in Abercorn erected.....>>
Yes, it's the best indicator of his parentage, and must mean he was around in 1841 which record at Milton Dalmey tallies - apart from him being a farmer - however there's no reason a retired quarryman wouldn't turn his hand at a spot of cultivation or dairying and call himself a farmer.
COMMENT: Agree.  At 70 years old, I doubt quarrying would be a viable occupation.

COMMENT:

Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Southpaw58 on Monday 25 June 18 05:14 BST (UK)
Sorry - accidentally hit send too soon.  There was on other thing I was going to mention....

In trying to tie down further information on John Brash and Janet McKomy, I reviewed all the John Brash death records in the OPR - with all the usual caveats regarding completeness and accuracy of the records.  On the basis that their second child (James) was born in 1769 I assume he was alive up to then.  There are 4 recorded options -
30/1/1776 - John B died in Newton - Got the best M/C and great bell and paid -3-6
15/8/1780 - John B died in Newton - Got the best M/C and great bell and paid -3-6
3/2/1792 - John B died in Midhope - Got the best M/C and paid -5-
3/12/1793 - John B in Ehland - got the second M/C and paid -2-6

My theory is that the latter could be Janet McKomy's husband John.  I am wondering if Ehland is Echline in Dalmeny.  Have you seen Ehland referenced before?

Then in 1795 there is a marriage record in Abercorn between John  Hay (Abercorn) and Janet McCombie (Dalmeny) on 13/11/1795.  There is then a death record for Janet (spouse to John Hay) in Newton on 30/6/1802, and a death record for John Hay Newton 28/8/1804 73 years old.  (There is also a second John Hay death record in Abercorn on 2/7/1805 in Abercorn village aged 72).  I may be leaping to far reaching conclusions but if this is Janet McKomy and she is roughly the same age as John Hay when she died, she would be born around 1730ish which would fit with a marriage to John B in 1753 in her early 20's.  This is obviously all complete supposition until I can find something else that helps confirm/deny it.  Still looking!

Kind regards

Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: ThrelfallYorky on Monday 25 June 18 15:52 BST (UK)
I've nothing to add to you, sadly, but I've been following this, as I "have a Brash" - nothing to do with yours, I'm sure - but your wonderfully well-organised and lucid comments and what really sounds like well-researched and checked information - no grasping at straws - is lovely to read. The "conversation" of points, information, responses and reasoning is delightful. Thank you.
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Southpaw58 on Monday 25 June 18 23:55 BST (UK)
Hello ThrelfallYorky
Thank you for your feedback.  Very kind of you to take the time to comment.  I'm really enjoying the researching process - and learning a lot along the way.

Can I ask if you are researching Brashes from the same time period/location - ie 1700's/Lothians?  If there's any information I have that might help you I am happy to share.

Kind regards
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 26 June 18 08:50 BST (UK)
James Brash, born 24 May 1815 in Mid Calder, son of Thomas Brash and Elizabeth Gowans, married my 3rd cousin 3 times removed, Elizabeth Storry, in 1845. I have some information about descendants if anyone is interested in them.
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Fordyce on Wednesday 27 June 18 15:08 BST (UK)
Hi Southpaw58.

Not too much to add, but maybe a tiny step forward?....

Re Soldier John Brash:
Bit of a dead end for John Brash & Janet McComie, the only option being Kew. I've got a note that the records of Col Halketts Regiment are at Kew under ref WO 12/11740 but I guess you've got that already. Other than any Muster Records, if he became a Chelsea Pensioner Out Patient and was receiving a pension, then, as an "Out-Pensioner" to the Chelsea Hospital it might have been delivered by the local Taxman in which case the relevant "Pensions Payments Book" ought to list every payment right up to his death. Happened to me with my 3xgtgdfather James Sibbald Preston who was discharged in 1814 after 28 years as a Private, but of course this was decades later.

The nearest I got with FindMyPast without paying is a John Brish and a John Brass.

Re Leitch:
Yes, three children, except that as well as the 5-year-old William Leitch in 1841, there is also a record of a William Leach b 30-2-1828 Abercorn parents William Leach & Janet Brash (per SPI) who died 17-1-1834 (per IGI). This looks like a fourth child with father's name erroneously recorded.

<<On the basis that their second child (James) was born in 1769 I assume he was alive up to then.  There are 4 recorded options>>

1. 30/1/1776 - John B died in Newton - Got the best M/C and great bell and paid -3-6
- I have him as h/o Christian Greenlaw: because when she died 28-3-1776 she got the identical mortcloth treatment, in particular she was a contributor as was he, whereas the John B 15/8/1780 was not recorded as being a Contributor.

2. 15/8/1780 - John B died in Newton - Got the best M/C and great bell and paid -3-6
- I did have him as h/o Janet Thorntoun but he would have been knocking on 90. For this and other reasons, I've discounted that and decided he died 1734/1735. So, now he's a good candidate.
There are several other candidates, impossible to count one over another.

3. 3/2/1792 - John B died in Midhope - Got the best M/C and paid -5-
- I've got a couple of timely candidates, but impossible to count one over another.

4. 3/12/1793 - John B in Ehland - got the second M/C and paid -2-6
- I believe Ehland is Echland aka Echline, in Queensferry, close to Linn Mill as well as Duddingston and Newton. I too had already noted this as a chance he is father of John Brash h/o Mary Wallace. There were Brashes in Queensferry - a family group was Henry Brash & Agnes Baigrie (he died in 1813). Another was 'your' Wiliam Brash & Isabel Nimmo with their MI in Vennel Kirk, S Queensferry. So, yes, a reasonable candidate.

But if he is, he cannot be 'John Brash farmer in Newton' not least because Agnes Brash who married David Brown 29-11-1792 was recorded than as d/o 'deceased John Brash farmer in Newton'.

Re Janet McComie marries twice.
Good thinking, and John Hay's wife Janet McCombie's death is recorded 30-6-1802 Abercorn. As luck would have it, I have the OPR page: "30th [June 1802] : McComby : Died Janet McCombie spouse to John Hay in Newton : 5/-" - Abercorn OPR. No age given. And note it doesn't say widow (unlike the previous entry), a clear indication her husband was then still alive.

Can you make anything more of that? A smidgeon of progress but still no answers!

Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Fordyce on Wednesday 27 June 18 15:21 BST (UK)
Hi Forfarian
For all the Brashes I have, none are Mid Calder. Apart from my Abercorn ones, there is a related family group who moved from Abercorn to Kincavil, Linlithgowshire, but although the forename Thomas does appear we're way back mid 1600s.
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: ThrelfallYorky on Wednesday 27 June 18 16:12 BST (UK)
Don't think there'll be much linkage, Southpaw, the one I've got, Agnes Brash, was born c1847 Linlithgow, and I think was a daughter of Thomas and Elizabeth Brash. In June 1864 she married an Andrew Ireland, and their daughter Abigail Ireland b 1861 married into my Downies, when she married Alexander Downie.
They were the parents of Abigail Funnel Ireland Downie, who was born 1891, and went on to marry Alexander Salmon. It was the Linlithgow as much as anything that interested me, as all my Bowies and Downies seem to have been from that area.
But I am enjoying reading your research!
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 27 June 18 16:31 BST (UK)
I wasn't really expecting any of them to link up, but one never knows.
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Southpaw58 on Tuesday 03 July 18 05:08 BST (UK)
Hi Forfarian
Thanks for the insight to your tree.  I had done a bit of research on that branch given all the "Johns" in the Brash tree.  Your James Brash had a prominent life according to the Obituary in the Linlithgow Gazette 29/7/1893 that I read.  I wonder if you have managed to get back earlier than Thomas and Elizabeth Gowans?  My theory is that that Thomas was the son of John Brash and Janet Moor/Mure/Muir but you may have better evidence than me.  I haven't found a link to them - yet - never say never!
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Southpaw58 on Tuesday 03 July 18 06:12 BST (UK)
Hi Fordyce
Sorry for delayed response - have not had access to my records for a few days.

Re:Soldier John Brash:
Actually you've given me a really good steer.  I had been searching in the same place as you on the TNA but was using the regiment name not the Colonel so your pointer to records for Col. Hackett was really helpful!  Thank you.

Re John Brash options:
The plot thickens! 

30/1/1776 John Brash - appreciate your comments given your knowledge of that branch of the tree.  Sounds logical to me. I had not searched for Christian's DC. 

In relation to the others, I was looking for potential DC for John Brash who married Janet McKomy
not their son John. 

I needed to review my docs before responding as I was a bit confused by your comment on Agnes.  The Agnes Brash who married David Brown in 1792 I have as the da. of John Brash and Agnes Thomson.  I had only reviewed their MC for Abercorn not the one for Edinburgh - which does add the datapoint about her father being deceased and a farmer as you point out.  If I have read it correctly, the BC for John B born 1760 son of John B and Agnes Thomson suggests the father is "John Brash younger" which I took to mean his father was John Brash and he was still alive at the time of their marriage in 1758.   I have only found two options where there is a John Brash born to a John Brash in this period - son of John Brash and Christian Greenlaw or John Brash and Janet Thorntoun.  I had assumed that John B h/o Agnes Thomson was the son of John B and Christian Greenlaw as their first daughter is called Christian.  I could be getting myself tied in knots about now.

There is one other John Brash which I have not been able to trace as yet - John Brash born 1700 - son of Walter Brash and Helen Lindsay - who was alive in 1733 to erect the grave to his father?  Do you have any insights on him/his decendents? 

Hope I haven't confused things more.  Appreciate your insights - you have obviously done A LOT of research.
Cheers
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Southpaw58 on Tuesday 03 July 18 07:13 BST (UK)
Hi ThrelfallYorky
Thanks for the insight to your branch.  Do you have records from Scotland's people for your dates?  I haven't come across a link to Downies so far.  I do have a Margaret Dowie who I believe was born in Kirkliston in 1808 who married one of my GGG grandfather (John Brash - yes, another John!) in 1833 - the MC suggests she is from Linlithgow at the time of their marriage.  As Fordyce suggests, there is a branch of the family tree we are both researching that was in Linlithgow from the 1600's so you never know - there could be a link yet to be discovered.
Kind regards
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: ThrelfallYorky on Tuesday 03 July 18 15:44 BST (UK)
I'll have to do a bit of digging in my files - she wasn't in my direct line, "merely" married in, and then - as one does when you feel you've pretty much tidied up your direct line, you start fussing around the edges, and I found myself following that line too. I'll post what I KNOW on here, when I find it.
Meantime - keep on, it's fascinating!
TY
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Fordyce on Tuesday 10 July 18 23:15 BST (UK)
Hi Southpaw58
Sorry for my delay - my excuse is the computer terminally failed (motherboard caput) - migrating to a new machine tests the patience of a saint (me!) even with everything already fully backed-up.

<<If I have read it correctly, the BC for John B born 1760 son of John B and Agnes Thomson suggests the father is "John Brash younger" which I took to mean his father was John Brash and he was still alive at the time of their marriage in 1758.   I have only found two options where there is a John Brash born to a John Brash in this period - son of John Brash and Christian Greenlaw or John Brash and Janet Thorntoun.  I had assumed that John B h/o Agnes Thomson was the son of John B and Christian Greenlaw as their first daughter is called Christian.>>

I've given it much thought, and decided to look at it in this way:-

1. The qualification 'younger' is my starting point:
Yes it's John Brash younger in Newtown, but that doesn't necessarily mean his father was John Brash older. It can mean that there was another (not necessarily related) John Brash in Newton who happened to be older. It's a very useful qualification to have but it isn't unambiguous!

2. So, who is the 'older'?
It's fair to say these two John Brashes were definitely in Newton in 1760:
- John Brash younger & Agnes Thomson were in Newton in 1760 (and still there in 1762 having another child).
- John Brash & Janet Cumming were in Newton in 1759 and 1761 having children, so they were surely in Newton in 1760 too.
So, you'd think that John Brash h/o Janet Cummin would thus be John Brash older.

But here's a third, seemingly even older:
- John Brash wright h/o Jean Richie was in Newton 1757 and 1764, also having children, so presumably in 1760 too.
So now we have two John Brashes older than John Brash younger (there being three John Brashes co-living in Newton the qualification ought have been 'youngest' or similar). Doesn't make sense.

One way of reconciling this is that John Brash & Jean Richie left Newton for a few years and returned (so that John Brash h/o Janet Cumming was then the only older). But having said that, the births in 1759, 1761, 1762 are all unqualified. As well, we have a fourth:-
- John Brash h/o Christian Greenlaw seems to have been alive in 1760 and therefore would have been in Newton then, which also qualifies him to be the implied John Brash older. Again, two John Brash olders - not acceptable.

We can perhaps reconcile that by
a. This John Brash didn't die in 1776 as I've suggested; instead he died before 1760.
b. Therefore, perhaps it was John Brash wright h/o Jean Richie who died in 1776.
c.  Also that John Brash b 1736 s/o John Brash & Christian Greenlaw had either died by 1760 or had moved away.

But rather than looking at there being only two John Brashes around at the same time, one being older the other being younger, I could reconcile all this by saying that John Brash younger (h/o Agnes Thomson) was so qualified only because his still-alive father was also named John Brash; and that any other John Brashes are not qualified because the father-and-son both alive combo doesn't apply.

Looking at dates, I think it's reasonable to propose that Agnes Brash h/o David Brown is d/o John Brash & Agnes Thomson (ages fit), thus making John Brash h/o Agnes Thomson the farmer in Newton, with an illeg dau Elizabeth who died a child in 1756.

By this convoluted route, I can then stitch everything together by having John Brash h/o Agnes Thomson being John Brash younger, the son of the still alive John Brash older h/o Christian Greenlaw (John Brash older indeed dying in 1776).

3. Now, that doesn't alter my view that John Brash h/o Mary Wallace is not John Brash younger's son. John Brash (h/o Mary Wallace) age upon death in 1850 (83) implies a birth year of 1766/67, and this is consistent with his age recorded in 1841 (70). If he were born in 1760, he ought to have been recorded as 80 in 1841 and 90 in 1850. 

4. There's a slot for John Brash (h/o Janet Cummins) to be s/o John Brash & Janet Thorntoun. To maintain the argument above, John Brash (h/o Janet Thorntoun) would have to be dead or no longer in Abercorn. And my notes have this family group disappear after 1734, so that fits.

5. This leaves John Brash h/o Mary Wallace being the s/o John Brash & Janet McComie. And of course this family group doesn't spoil the argument above.

I think this has 'soaked' up everybody, with everybody slotted in somewhere with at least some semblence of a defendable rationale......

<<There is one other John Brash which I have not been able to trace as yet - John Brash born 1700 - son of Walter Brash and Helen Lindsay - who was alive in 1733 to erect the grave to his father?  Do you have any insights on him/his decendents? >>
No!
That's the long and the short of it.
Walter Brash was a tenant in Philpston, as was his father also Walter.
I have nothing which suggests the family moved on. I do have a John Brash (d 1766) & Marjory Cant (d 1755) who marr 5-10-1727 Carriden and had family and died all in Bo'Ness; he could, datewise, be the one from Philpston, but I've no other reason why he should. One of their children could, again datewise, be my Betty Brash, which is why I'm keeping an eye on this family group.

Hope the above makes sense. I think we've made progress!
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Southpaw58 on Thursday 19 July 18 02:10 BST (UK)
Hi Fordyce
So sorry to hear about your computer failure.  At least you had backups but I understand what an enormous hassle that is and would definitely test the patience of anyone.

Sorry my response is delayed.  I need to change some settings so I know when something's added to this discussion.  Newbie error.

Thank you for your detailed response.  You are very generous with your time and insights.  It’s always useful to have assumptions made explicit and tested ie my interpretation of “younger”. 

If only  the death records provided a bit more information on age it would be so much easier.  Ha ha.  I do wonder about my assumptions on:
-   fluidity of occupations – I note that John B h/o Christian Greenlaw is listed fairly consistently as a smith but on the last daughter’s birth he is noted as a “wright” in Newton.  Of-course that could just be a mistake in the record keeping – easy to do.
-   the definition of “farmer” – I assume there is a distinction between a tenant and a farmer although I recognise the term tenant farmer is also used.  Having said that, the notation of John B h/o Mary Wallace/Betty Brown as a farmer at the age of 70 in the 1841 census makes me wonder if the term could be used in a number of ways.  I know I’m not helping here – just thinking out loud to see if my assumptions need some realignment.

I can’t comment on the idea of “Elizabeth da to farmer John B who died in 1756” being the illegitimate daughter of John B/Agnes Thomson”.  I agree the reference to her father being a farmer implies a link.  I don’t know how often an illegitimate birth was not recorded given the times.  Hard to tell.

In relation to potentials for John s/o Walter Brash and Helen Lindsay:
-   John B/Marjory Cant – hmmmm, I am a little confused by that couple.  I had assumed the DR for John B 30/3/1755 in Bo’ness – workman killed accidentally was that John as there is a death record for Eliz Brash 30/7/1742 “da to John Brash (workman) /Marjory Canle? In B’Ness.  ie picking up on the similarity of the use of the “workman” occupation.  But then Marjory’s death 3/4/1766 says she is the spouse of John Brash – which I understood to suggest he was still alive whereas relict would imply he had died.  Again, these could all be just the different ways the clerks recorded things.  It is certainly clear that the format, style and detail of the records changed over time.
-   There is another John Brash that I am yet to place.  I only came across this one as there is a death record for Ann Bartholomens 2/1/1759 – who is noted as the spouse to John B Duntarvie.   I have not found a marriage record or any births to this couple.  Either they never had children or this could be a later in life second marriage.  Hard to tell without more data.   

Perhaps there is data there that is yet to be found that will help to triangulate the existing data points.  Sorry to not have much of use to add right now. 
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn - Part I
Post by: Fordyce on Friday 20 July 18 21:16 BST (UK)
Hi Southpaw58. Back up and running! Four topics in response to your latest.

Smith/Wright: There's always something! I had noted that "I don't understand why I couldn't find her baptism in the Abercorn OPR". I've had the actual microfilm from the LDS for Abercorn out at least once, yet I couldn't ever find Ann's 1751 entry. Got it from SP now.

Note too that Ann is said to be their fifth dau - yet she is their sixth so I'm taking from that that fifth dau Janet born in 1749 died infancy. Being recorded as a wright (at the same time as John Brash h/o Jean Richie is being recorded a wright too) does indeed undermine my regarding smith and wright as discrete occupations. However, I don't think, on its own, it alters the Brash tree as I have it.

Milton, Dalmeny: I've revisited Milton, Dalmeny, like so:-
1841 families at Milton Dalmeny:
   Farmer (Brash family)
   Female Servant (young Helen Wood)
   Ag Lab (Wright family)
   Ag Lab (Taylor family)
1851 families at Milton Dalmeny:
   William Thomson Farmer 140 acres, with a household of six others inc his mother
   Farm Servant (Elder family)
   Day Labourer Agr (Reid family)
1861 families at Milton Dalmeny:
   William Thomson Farmer 124 ac 3m 1, with a household of six others
   Ploughman (Cameron family)
   Ploughman (Marshall family)
   Wandour (wanderer, i.e. tramp? - two Monteiths)

The farmer William Thomson had been a farmer in 1841 at Moss Hall Whitburn WLN.

It's hard not to conclude that Milton was a decent sized farm, requiring two Ag Labs to assist the Farmer, with the elderly Brashes having a lassie to sort the house. Thus John Brash was a 'proper' farmer, not just pottering around a few acres after retirement.

It's therefore even more difficult to square John Brash the farmer in 1841 being the John Brash said by his family to have been a quarryman (presuming that 'dairyman' is no more than a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of 'quarryman').

I can only leave that lying on the table.

John Brash & Marjory Cant: I agree - it doesn't hang together as might be expected.

SP has indexed Marjory Cant incorrectly - she died 31-3-1766 buried 1-4-1766. I notice on the same page an entry has " ---- spouse to the deceast ----" which adds more support that John Brash was still alive.

Also:-
- Margaret Brash 15-8-1740 Jno Brash & Marjory Caul 663/50 232 Bo'Ness - SPI
- Eliz Brash 30-7-1742 Jno Brash & Marjory Canle 663/50 239 Bo'Ness - SPI
This last at least allows me to exclude her from being my Betty Brash, so that's one candidate struck off my list.
Furthermore, given the forename Matthew in this family group, perhaps this John Brash is s/o Mathew Brash & Margaret Potter. I've allocated him there, pro tem. I've also accepted, pro tem, that John Brash had predeceased his wife - this becomes relevant below.

I've exceeded RootsChat's limit - part II to follow - you'll like it!
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn - Part II
Post by: Fordyce on Friday 20 July 18 21:18 BST (UK)
Ann Bartholomens: This was news to me. Isobel Brash (deemed to be sister of my Betty Brash) marr James Bartholomew in 1767. This family has several mentions of Uphall in later years. I have noted: "I believe James Bartholomew was a farmer whose origins were in Kirkliston rather than in Abercorn, although it appears that Bartholomews were long-established at Duntarvie/Tottlingwells". From a biography of Sir Frank Charles Mears: "...the Bartholemews having been farmers of Duntarvie on the Hopetoun Estate since the mid 17th century" - www.scottisharchitects.org.uk/architect_full.php?id=202402. There is also mention of "Mr. James Bartholomew of Duntarvie" in www.scottishshale.co.uk/DigitalAssets/pdf/LVSAV/LVSAV2016.090.pdf (History & Antiquities of the Parish Of Uphall) but I'm unsure of the date.

My Thomas Shatton & Betty Brash didn't arrive on the scene until 1772 at Craigton, then renting "part of Duntarvie" in 1787, so a good deal later than 1759. He was a subtenant, the tenant being George Henderson, a dynamic character with tenancies of dozens of farms and even more subtenants, who got a 26 year tenancy in 1777, which is still well after John Brash & Ann Batholomew might have been there.

Without going into detail here, in trying to establish the parentage of James Bartholomew, it became very clear that the surname Bartholomew was interchangeable with the surname Barclay! Explicit evidence is on page 39 of the Uphall book, and it's now clear why previous researchers were looking for Barclay as well as Bartholomew.  It's just dawned upon me that I have a John Brash marry Ann Barclay 25-12-1740 Abercorn; they had a son Walter 6-8-1741 Addistown, Abercorn. Surely this Ann Barclay will be the Ann Bartholomens who died in 1759! (BTW the image is clear enough it's Bartholomew misindexed as Bartholomens.)

So: "Ann Bartholomew 2-1-1759 spouse to John Brash in Duntarvie got the 2nd Mortcloth being poor pay nothing." "Being poor" because she's a widow? Note again that, if so, the husband predeceased the wife and yet she is called his spouse.

This record shows a Brash presence in Duntarvie from way back: Hearth Tax 1691: Duntarvie: William Brash (ScotlandsPlaces E69/24/1/5). I have assigned him, rightly or wrongly, to William Brash h/o Grissel Patteron who marr 18-7-1678, parents of the Mathew Brash who married Margaret Potter.

Run out of steam now! But progress. Given my Thomas Shatton was a farmer and with his and Betty Brash's connection with Duntarvie, I remain not 100% comfortable with her being d/o smith John Brash & Christian Greenlaw, and now here's a possibility that my Betty Brash could be d/o John Brash & Ann Bartholomew.

I think we're working as a team here. In view of my exceeding RootsChat's limit, would you care to send me your email address in a PM?
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Skoosh on Friday 20 July 18 23:03 BST (UK)
 The surname Bartie derives from Bartholemew, found in Angus? & sounds like Barclay!


Skoosh.
Title: Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
Post by: Southpaw58 on Friday 27 July 18 00:45 BST (UK)
Thanks for that Skoosh.  The number of name variants seem to go far broader than I had originally envisaged.  Appreciate the insight.