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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: mcadamsd on Friday 16 December 16 19:50 GMT (UK)
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Looking for my Great Grandmother and parents.
Thought she was born in Angus/Glammis but that may be incorrect.
I believe she was in Canada by 1851 and living with family in Brantford, Ontario area. Brantford fits other info as she married a George Alexander Barnard 1835-1922 in the Brantford area 9 Jan 1861.
Her death record 30 May 1917 lists her father as John Dunbar and mother simply as Margaret.
Margaret appears in the 1851 Canada Census with Isabella in Brantford and given age of 53, she was born about 1798.
The 1841 Scotland census does not seem to yield and families with a John and Margaret Dunbar but the fact that we find no John in Canada in 1851 may mean he passed and family left for Canada.
I do find a family of John and Jean in Leith South -Midlothian. Would Margaret be called Jean as a diminutive or some other reason?
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Hi there is this possible?
1841 census
John Dunbar 60
Margaret 50
Christina 20
Isabell 10
Residing at Haugh of Cossans Cotter, Glamis, Forfarshire
Note looks like ages have been "Rounded down" as per instructions for 1841 census.
Keyboard86
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Have you checked the death records of siblings to see if the location was given on theirs? I've had some success with that with my Canadian family, I think it's recorded on death certificates from around 1910 onwards? Also have you checked obituaries? Often they would mention places of origin, particularly if the person was quite old.
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Hi,
What were the names of children & were there any middle names, usually points to maiden surnames?
Annie
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Hi I believe I have located the 1851 census for Brantford, in addition to Isabella 18 and Margaret 53 there were also:-
John 26 occ Cabinet Maker
James 24 occ Mason
William 22 occ Mason
Alexander 20 occ Carpenter
All born Scotland
Margaret 15 b Canada
George? 11 b Canada
Keyboard86
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Does Isabella's marriage not give both parties parents names?
So Christina on 1841 is missing (possibly married)?
Keyboard,
Are you able to see if Margaret's a widow on 1851?
Annie
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Hi Annie, yes there is a "W" beside the age of 53.
Keyboard
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Thanks for all the feedback.
I have not found a death record that I can match to Isabel's siblings. No death for any of them so far. Some possible but no parents and not in an area I had found family previously. Also often in a profession not found previously
I had missed the W on the 1851 census. I thought it was an M for married.
No death for John Dunbar but he must have come to Canada in 1840's given a child of 15 born in Canada is on 1851 census.
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Just found a hint of a birth for Alexander Dunbar born 25 Apr 1830 and baptized Keith,Banff,Scotland 16 May 1830 and a death in Bruce county Ontario. Sadly no parents listed. However, occupation is Carpenter which fits.
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Hi
The following births in Keith, Banff, Scotland Parents John Dunbar and Margaret Bain
William 8 March 1828
James16 Aug 1826
John 25 April 1824
Alexander25 April 1830
Robt. 16 July 1831
Dates of birth seem to match up ages on 1851 Canada census.
William
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You can see transcripts of the births mentioned above on Freereg where there is also this one
Isobel Dunbar baptised 26 Dec 1833 birth ?dec 1833 Parents John Dunbar and Margaret Bain
Abode: Loanside
Witnesses Isobel Weir and John Barbour both in Yondertown.
William
Added Marriage John Dunbar and Margaret Bain Keith 22 Feb 1824
And there is this entry taken from the Kirk Session Records in Keith " Bain Margaret 1824 In Fife Keith antenuptial fornication with John Dunbar". Looking at the dob of John in April and a marriage in Feb. this is not surprising!
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Many thanks again:
The Keith births seem to fit rather well. Almost a perfect fit I have Robert born 1833 but that does not make sense if Isabel was 1833. My dates were based on census info so possibly off by a bit.
I had Isabel born in 1833 or 1836 but her headstone does say 1833 which fits the birth you have found. Much interesting info here!
Canadian records after 1861 seem limited. However, many branches of the family headed west and some headed to US for opportunities there.
I need to find a death for John Dunbar (likely in Canada) but no joy so far
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Looking for my Great Grandmother and parents.
Thought she was born in Angus/Glammis but new info pints to possibly Banffshire and Keith in particular.
I believe she was in Canada by 1851 and living with family in Brantford, Ontario area. Brantford fits other info as she married a George Alexander Barnard 1835-1922 in the Brantford area 9 Jan 1861.
Her death record 30 May 1917 lists her father as John Dunbar and mother simply as Margaret.
Margaret appears in the 1851 Canada Census with Isabella in Brantford and given age of 53, she was born about 1798.
Family in 1851 with Margaret, widowed
John 26 occ Cabinet Maker
James 24 occ Mason
William 22 occ Mason
Alexander 20 occ Carpenter
All born Scotland
Margaret 15 b Canada
George? 11 b Canada
I have been unable to fain d death for a John Dunbar in Canada with enough detail to conform it is the "correct" John Dunbar
Another researcher pointed me to these births/ baptisms
The following births in Keith, Banff, Scotland Parents John Dunbar and Margaret Bain
William 8 March 1828
James16 Aug 1826
John 25 April 1824
Alexander25 April 1830
Robt. 16 July 1831
Isobel Dunbar baptised 26 Dec 1833 birth ?dec 1833 Parents John Dunbar and Margaret Bain
Abode: Loanside
Witnesses Isobel Weir and John Barbour both in Yondertown. ( Could this be my great grandmother?
Same researcher point to a marriage Added Marriage John Dunbar and Margaret Bain Keith 22 Feb 1824
Any other Keith/Banff resources I could check?
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Duplicate thread.
Threads merged.
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There are two John's who died in Brantford.
http://brantford.library.on.ca/localhistory/bmd/about-the-bmd
Select search, surname only perhaps some of the others are from this family.
Don
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The death in Brantford in 1902 looks close. Birth listed as England but occupation of Cabinet Maker fits. Solid lead and perhaps there is more to be found in newspaper archive. Many thanks
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Hi I believe I have located the 1851 census for Brantford, in addition to Isabella 18 and Margaret 53 there were also:-
John 26 occ Cabinet Maker
James 24 occ Mason
William 22 occ Mason
Alexander 20 occ Carpenter
All born Scotland
Margaret 15 b Canada
George? 11 b Canada
Keyboard86
This seems to be them again in Brantford, in 1861:
Mrs Dunbar, widow 58 (she seems to be quite creative with her age ;D)
John, 37
James 35
William 33
Alexander 31
Robert 29
Margaret 24
George 21
I wonder if this might be the family you're looking for:
John Dunbar and Margaret Bain m. 22 Feb 1824, Keith, Banffshire. They had six children baptised in Keith as follows:
John 25 Apr 1824
James 16 Aug 1826
William 8 Mar 1828
Alexander 25 Apr 1830
Robert 16 Jul 1831
Isobel 6 Dec 1833
There's also a death registered in Michigan on 30 Nov 1918 of Margaret Shaw (nee Dunbar) - her place of birth is stated as Brantford, Ontario - parents John Dunbar and Margaret Bain. Her date of birth on the death record is recorded as 28 Dec 1833 - which is a bit out, but all the censuses she appears on with her husband have her year of birth as 1836 or 1837. She married Sidney Shaw on 6 Sep 1865 in Huron, Ontario.
Ruth
EDIT - just spotted that you've already got most of this with the two threads being merged - sorry for the duplication :)
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Thanks Ruth:
I had found the Shaw connection but was unsure of family after marriage. Moving to Michigan makes sense .
I will see where this lleads
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No death for John Dunbar but he must have come to Canada in 1840's given a child of 15 born in Canada is on 1851 census.
In this case he must have arrived in Canada 1830's?
Annie
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These might be births for your John Dunbar and Margaret Bain:
Margaret Bain b. 13 Jan 1798, Keith, Banffshire to William Bain and Isobel Lipp (m. 23 Sep 1797, Keith).
John Dunbar b. 25 Sep 1797, Keith, Banffshire to John Dunbar and Anne Barber (m. 5 Mar 1797, Keith).
Neither set of parents seem to have made it to 1841 - at least not in Keith - but Margaret Bain had at least 8 siblings that I can see, so you might be able to track some of them down. I can only see two siblings for John Dunbar - a brother, James, and a sister, Anna.
Ruth
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I had found the Shaw connection but was unsure of family after marriage. Moving to Michigan makes sense .
The Shaws are in Huron in the 1871 census with three children - and with Margaret's mother, Margaret Dunbar, aged 70. By 1881, they are in Bay City, Michigan.
I can see a death for Margaret Dunbar in Wroxeter, Huron, Ontario on 5 Jan 1890, aged 94 - registered by her son-in-law, George Barnard.
Ruth
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Thanks for the great feedback. The leads are very solid and it looks like I have the correct family now.
Any suggestions on finding marriages for any of the parents? Scotland's People did not reveal anything.
I have had no success finding a death or burial in Canada for John Dunbar Birth 25 SEP 1797 Keith, Banffshire, Scotland. A search for Margaret Bain burial has also yielded no results. I have been at the cemetery in Wroxeter but no Margaret found. Odd since she passed there and other relatives are there. Looking for a possible abandoned cemetery.
All the best for 2017! Happy New Year!
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Any suggestions on finding marriages for any of the parents? Scotland's People did not reveal anything.
Do you mean the parents of John Dunbar and Margaret Bain that I posted above ^^^ ? I can see both of them on SP - William Bain and Isobel Lipp m. 23 Sep 1797, Keith, Banffshire; and John Dunbar and Anna Barber m. 5 Mar 1797, Keith, Banffshire - or am I missing something? Wouldn't be the first time :D ;D
Ruth
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Thanks Ruth:
I had the details on both parents, thanks to you, but I did not find them on Scotland's People to try and obtain a marriage Bann or other document that might have shown their parents.
I will search again as I must have made an error in my search criteria.
Happy New Year!
Dave
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I had the details on both parents, thanks to you, but I did not find them on Scotland's People to try and obtain a marriage Bann or other document that might have shown their parents.
Those marriage records will not tell you the names of their parents.
I will search again as I must have made an error in my search criteria.
Jusr us one of the couple's names, not both.
Happy New Year!
And to you and everyone else.
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I had the details on both parents, thanks to you, but I did not find them on Scotland's People to try and obtain a marriage Bann or other document that might have shown their parents.
As Forfarian says, you're unlikely to find any details of their parents in the parish records. I've seen it very rarely for marriages, and where I have, it's only the father. Witnesses at baptisms can sometimes help in identifying other family members - at least on the male side of the family ;D
Isobel Lipp shouldn't be too difficult to find (I've also seen it spelled Lippe), as it's quite an unusual name, but the others might be trickier.
Ruth
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Thanks for the suggestions. A new search finds a birth for an Isobel Lipp 03/06/1792 in Cairnie parish. No other birth results from the approximate time period I chose 1775-1798.
This parish seems very close to Keith About 10Km from what I see. I notice that Keith is a rather larger town/village that Cairnie so a marriage in 1797 in Keith does make sense. At least to me ;-)
Parents listed as JAMES LIPP/JANE FETTES. If correct my 4th great grandparents
The only other record that appears is the marriage to William Bain.
This looks promising
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Thanks for the suggestions. A new search finds a birth for an Isobel Lipp 03/06/1792 in Cairnie parish.
If she was married to William Bain in 1797, she's unlikely to have been born in 1792... :D
There's an Isabel Lipp born 26 Sep 1773 in Drumblade, Aberdeenshire, to Alexander Lipp - but a more likely candidate in my view would be Isobel Lip, born 19 Jun 1779, Botriphnie, Banffshire to John Lip and Elspet Steinson. It would have made her just 18 when she married, but not beyond the bounds of possibly - especially if you consider that Margaret was born only four months after the marriage... ;) Also both Elspet and John appear as names for William and Isobel's children, which, whilst not definitive proof, tends to sway the odds in my view.
William Bain is a bit trickier - I can see three possibilities in Moray:
William Bain, 13 Nov 1770, Knockando, Moray, to William Bain and Isobel Smith
William Bain, 12 Sep 1777, Drainie, Moray, to William Bain
William Bain, 19 Jun 1768, Elgin, Moray, to Ronald Bain and Sarah Ferguson
On the Dunbar side, I can see only one possibility for Anna Barber:
Anna Barber, 9 Oct 1775, Keith, Banffshire to John Barber and Margaret Turner
But John Dunbar is a whole other problem - I can see two in Fordyce in Banffshire and one in Clatt, Aberdeenshire - but there are a lot of Dunbars in Moray... Seems this must be the Dunbar heartland... ;D at least half a dozen Johns around the right time...
Ruth
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Great feedback Ruth:
Looks like Botriphnie is not too far from the marriage location either and the age thing makes sense.
I found a couple more folks on another site that seem to have a similar tree and I have reached out to them to "compare notes" and see what they may have. I will post any new leads here.
Dave
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Cairnie parish ....
This parish seems very close to Keith About 10Km from what I see.
It is actually the next-door parish, though Cairnie/Cairney is in Aberdeenshire and Keith is in Banffshire.
I notice that Keith is a rather larger town/village that Cairnie so a marriage in 1797 in Keith does make sense. At least to me ;-)
No. A marriage normally took place in the bride's parish of residence, so it is much more likely that she had moved to Keith to live or to take up employment than that she chose to get married in Keith because it was a bigger place. The marriage entry will say if one of the couple was not resident in the parish.
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Hi there - Isabella was my husband's g-g-g-grandmother. I have photos of Isabella Dunbar and George Barnard as well as one Margaret Dunbar, Isabella's mother. Photos are too large to attach. I'm not sure how I can get these to you. Thoughts?
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Thanks for the contact regarding the images
Very interested to see the images you have.
I have many images that are unnamed that were from my grandmother, Lavina Barnard. Likely some are relatives but so far they remain unknown. I have all scanned and would be able to compare with images you have.
I attempted to direct message you but the system reports your inbox is full. Will try again tomorrow in case the error was a system glitch
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I have a photo listed as Lavina Barnard Pope with husband (Goerge? Charles? John?) and children (labelled "The Popes"). I registered on this site solely to talk to you, so can't imagine why my inbox would be full. Trying to figure this out. Are you on FB?
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Hi Leanne
Once you've made three posts to the forum, you'll be able to send and receive PMs.
Ruth
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Lavina Barnard married Charles Clark Pope 22 Jan 1902 in or near Wroxeter, Ontario
Around 1915-16 he moved to London and built a home for the family in what is now called Old South. He built a second home next to it around 1925.
We understand he built other homes in the area but sadly all his blueprints and other plans were thrown out a number of years ago by his daughter or son.
Here is the only image I have of Charles Clark Pope. Likely taken later in life. Made it a PDF so size would work on this site
Once I can DM you I will send direct contact info
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Hello again Leanne:
Which one of Isabella and George A Barnard's 8 children that survived to adulthood is your husband descended from?
I have fairly good trees for some of the children but others have significant gaps.
Dave
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I have this person in my tree. Her father, John Dunbar is my 5th Great Grandfather. Her mother was Anne Barber.