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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: curioushistory on Tuesday 27 December 16 20:44 GMT (UK)
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First timer so...I am hoping for help finding anything on my Nana, Violet Florence McArthur. Born June 30th 1919 in London City . Mother Alice Tapp, father not on record of birth, do not know if they married. She was raised by Lawrence (Philip) and Mabel May Deakin nee Beare. When Violet met my Granddad she was using the name Deakin. She died in 1991. Never knowing.
I do know that no records were kept so early on but....just hoping to find a first name for Mr. McArthur, or what happened to Alice? thank you
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Welcome to Rootschat.
You are right, there was no formal adoption before 1927, so there are unlikely to be any records. It is a bit unusual, as far as I know, for a child to be given their father's surname if he is not mentioned on the birth certificate and the parent's aren't married. Not illegal, as I believe you can give a child any name you like, just unusual!
Something a little odd re the entry on Freebmd, the initials are in brackets i.e [F P] none of the others on that page are. I wonder if that is significant?
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Does it say anything about Alice Tapp? For example, is that all or does it say her occupation, or "single woman" or "Alice McArthur formerly Tapp" or anything? Is the place of birth no more specific than London City?
:)
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Something a little odd re the entry on Freebmd, the initials are in brackets i.e [F P] none of the others on that page are. I wonder if that is significant?
It's a freebmd way of transcribing, the transcriber can't determine whether the initial is a F or P so puts them both in a bracket as a way of highlighting the problem.
The initial is clearly an F if you look at other sources.
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Thanks Dawn, that's something to remember.
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The only births for Alice Tapp in London from 1890 to 1905 are two in 1899. Alice Maud in St Olave and Alice Maud M in Lambeth.
These girls both die by the age of 1.
So either Alice was born outside London, or aged around 30 or above when baby born.
There is no death or marriage for an Alice Tapp from 1919 to 1939 in London.
Added:
Sorry, do you mean she was born as MacArthur, so her parents were married?
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Hi are you sure I was unusual .groom .
My Nana was boarded out as a baby 1901 census has her under her birth name
She was at school and on 1911 census under name of the 'adoptive' family
She may not have known her birth surname until she married .
Have come across a possible sister for her who was registered under her mothers fella.s name as they were passing themselves off as married
On the 1911 census she is down as adopted daughter aged 4 but still under name given at birth .....I don't know which surname she used later .
Good luck with your research .
curious
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What I was saying brididmac is that it is fairly unusual for a child to be given her father's name on her birth certificate if the parent's weren't married and if the father wasn't named on the certificate. You would usually expect to see her mother's name.
We do need more information about the mother's name on the certificate as Ayashi says.
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There is no death for an Alice MacArthur from 1919 to 1983 in London, according to free bmd.
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There aren't many Alice Tapp's in the bmd indexes, even less without middle names but one marriage stands out.
In 1908 also in the London City district, Alice Tapp marries Herbert Kingsnorth July 18 1908, the image from the parish register is on Ancestry. They marry by license and she gives her residence as Newington, Sittingbourne, Kent.
Herbert & Alice are on the 1939 register, she seems to die in 1949 in Tonbridge Kent, he remmaries in 1950 and lives on to 1970
I can't see any obvious Kingsnorth mmn Tapp births but could Violet have been born as a result of a daliance towards the end of WW1?
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There is no death for an Alice MacArthur from 1919 to 1983 in London, according to free bmd.
Trees on Ancestry have her death as 1991 - Guelph, Ontario.
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I agree groom ...
Quite common for child to be given father surname as a middle name on the certificate especially if the mother wanted to file for maintenance money
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Is there an address for the mother on the birth certificate? That might help trace some contacts
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Mabel and Lawrence do not marry until Violet is a year old - so who was looking after her up to then?
Marriages December quarter 1920
Mabel M Beare Brentford 3a 440
Lawrence P Deakin Brentford 3a 440
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They also had their own child in April 1921, so Mabel must have been at least 2 months pregnant when she married. Rather strange to take on a young child at the same time, I wonder if there was some sort of family connection?
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Have you researched the Beares and Deakins to look for any possible connection to Alice.
Mabel M Beare was born in 1883, so not particularly young on her marriage.
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The only births for Alice Tapp in London from 1890 to 1905 are two in 1899. Alice Maud in St Olave and Alice Maud M in Lambeth.
These girls both die by the age of 1.
So either Alice was born outside London, or aged around 30 or above when baby born.
There is no death or marriage for an Alice Tapp from 1919 to 1939 in London.
Added:
Sorry, do you mean she was born as MacArthur, so her parents were married?
Unknown where Alice was born or died. Can not find any record of marriage.
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Mabel and Lawrence do not marry until Violet is a year old - so who was looking after her up to then?
Marriages December quarter 1920
Mabel M Beare Brentford 3a 440
Lawrence P Deakin Brentford 3a 440
I would assume Alice Tapp.
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There is no death for an Alice MacArthur from 1919 to 1983 in London, according to free bmd.
Trees on Ancestry have her death as 1991 - Guelph, Ontario.
Violet did die in Guelph, yes,
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Does it say anything about Alice Tapp? For example, is that all or does it say her occupation, or "single woman" or "Alice McArthur formerly Tapp" or anything? Is the place of birth no more specific than London City?
:)
nothing.
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On the birth certificate, where the Father's full name should be recorded, it just says MacArthur?
Where it says occupation of Father it is just left blank?
Name, surname and maiden surname of Mother, it just says Alice Tapp?
What was entered in the informant box?
Sorry for asking again, please could you transcribe full details from the certificate.
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what about my reply #9?
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what about my reply #9?
I do not have the formal certificate of birth just the record of birth. On her marriage certicate she crossed everything out. I can't send what I do have, the file is too big.
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I was told Alice Tapp went to the United States, but again can't find anything. I wondering if Violet was born after her father died. And she got his Surname, but parents never married??
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What I was saying brididmac is that it is fairly unusual for a child to be given her father's name on her birth certificate if the parent's weren't married and if the father wasn't named on the certificate. You would usually expect to see her mother's name.
We do need more information about the mother's name on the certificate as Ayashi says.
Tapp is listed as Alice's Mainden name of Restister of Birth.Welcome to Rootschat.
You are right, there was no formal adoption before 1927, so there are unlikely to be any records. It is a bit unusual, as far as I know, for a child to be given their father's surname if he is not mentioned on the birth certificate and the parent's aren't married. Not illegal, as I believe you can give a child any name you like, just unusual!
Something a little odd re the entry on Freebmd, the initials are in brackets i.e [F P] none of the others on that page are. I wonder if that is significant?
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On the birth certificate, where the Father's full name should be recorded, it just says MacArthur?
Where it says occupation of Father it is just left blank?
Name, surname and maiden surname of Mother, it just says Alice Tapp?
What was entered in the informant box?
Sorry for asking again, please could you transcribe full details from the certificate.
Only have record of birth, but on her marriage certificate she crossed it all out.
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I do not have the formal certificate of birth just the record of birth. On her marriage certicate she crossed everything out. I can't send what I do have, the file is too big.
In your first post you said that the father's name wasn't on the birth certificate - are you now saying that you haven't seen the actual certificate? If not you need the birth certificate as it will tell you far more. That will give you her mother's name and whether or not she was married. It should also give her father's first name unless that column was left blank.
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I do not have the formal certificate of birth just the record of birth. On her marriage certicate she crossed everything out. I can't send what I do have, the file is too big.
In your first post you said that the father's name wasn't on the birth certificate - are you now saying that you haven't seen the actual certificate? If not you need the birth certificate as it will tell you far more. That will give you her mother's name and whether or not she was married. It should also give her father's first name unless that column was left blank.
Sorry, I thought I had the birth certificate but I have her record of birth, her copy and the list that is on freebmd. I would not even know how to get a copy a that, living in Canada. I did notice though that on the freebmd site Tapp is listed as her maiden name. Sorry again!
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So what is the "record of birth" if it isn't the birth certificate?
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you can apply online at www.gro.gov.uk, all certs currently cost £9.25 sterling and cost no more to send worldwide. You must quote these details as they are on the image
Birth Sept 1919
McArthur, Violet F, district London C. volume 1c page 3
you don't need the mothers maiden surname.
Despatch is about 5 working days plus overseas airmail postage.
The 'record' might be a short form cert that doesn't show parents names or the exact place of birth
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Sorry, kinda lost touch.
Jack McArthur is the father's name. He was a Private for the Australian Imperial force at the headquarters in London, in 1919. Living with Alice Edith at 15 Montpelier street, Knightsbridge. I recently found out there was a home for Disabled Vets on Montpelier st, somewhere.
Alice was born in the Thavies Inn Infirmary V.D ward.
Alice states her name as McArthur, formally known as Tapp.
In 1920, Violet is already in the custody of the Deakins. As Alice signs papers giving her rights away. No father mentioned 1920.
And mistakenly writes Miss Alice on the papers but crosses it out
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Does Alice go on to marry Mr Patmore, travel to Australia with him and a daughter, and die there in 1979?
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I believe so.
I believe there was no marriage before Patmore. And writes "spinster" on marriage papers.
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I am hoping that the 1921 census sheds some light as it was done in June, and she marries in September.
They are all in-between censuses, which is very frustrating!!
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Does she also have a son in 1916, or is he an unrelated Tapp/Tapp birth?
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This is the tricky part.
Kenneth was born in 1916, in Clapham maternity. Apparently for first born children.
Kenneth side does think it's the same Alice!
My Nana never wanted to know, but it has always fascinated me!
We have a letter from Alice to give custody. And my Nanas birth record
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The Patmore side, also thinks it's not the same Alice. Unless they know something I don't.
I think it is very possible! I just need proof!!
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Sorry, kinda lost touch.
Jack McArthur is the father's name. He was a Private for the Australian Imperial force at the headquarters in London, in 1919. Living with Alice Edith at 15 Montpelier street, Knightsbridge. I recently found out there was a home for Disabled Vets on Montpelier st, somewhere.
Violet was born in the Thavies Inn Infirmary V.D ward.
Alice states her name as McArthur, formally known as Tapp.
In 1920, Violet is already in the custody of the Deakins. As Alice signs papers giving her rights away. No father mentioned 1920.
And mistakenly writes Miss Alice on the papers but crosses it out
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Does Kenneth also get put up for adoption? I could not see him in 1939, nor any death, but he could have gone abroad.
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Yes, he was sadly 'given' to a family named Hutchings, from Sydenham
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DNA testing for links?
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None. I don't know if my Dad (Violet's son) would take one.
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If your dad doesn't like the idea of a DNA test, your own would be enough although your dads' would be better alongside as closer is better.
Annie
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Jack Mcarthur A.I F.. His service records file is 36 pages, freely available no charge from naa.gov.au he was returned to Australia, departing England 11 December 1918, so among the first of our AIF volunteers to return to Australia after the Armistice.
So who was in London in 1919?
Sorry, kinda lost touch.
Jack McArthur is the father's name. He was a Private for the Australian Imperial force at the headquarters in London, in 1919. Living with Alice Edith at 15 Montpelier street, Knightsbridge. I recently found out there was a home for Disabled Vets on Montpelier st, somewhere.
Alice was born in the Thavies Inn Infirmary V.D ward.
Alice states her name as McArthur, formally known as Tapp.
In 1920, Violet is already in the custody of the Deakins. As Alice signs papers giving her rights away. No father mentioned 1920.
And mistakenly writes Miss Alice on the papers but crosses it out
JM.
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Violet Florence McArthur was born in1919. My Nana.
I will gladly check your info, thank you!
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Jack Mcarthur A.I F. was returned to Australia, departing England 11 December 1918
So who was in London in 1919?
Jack McArthur is the father's name. He was a Private for the Australian Imperial force at the headquarters in London, in 1919. Living with Alice Edith at 15 Montpelier street, Knightsbridge.
Alice states her name as McArthur, formally known as Tapp.
The dates work out for the father being Jack McArthur, even although he returned to Australia prior to the birth & probably unaware of being the father.
Where did the info. come from, he was living with Alice Edith in 1919?
Annie
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The only info we have is the birth certificate. Which says they are married and living together.
But can't find anything online.
Dates do match up,on J.F.M. McArthur. But that's as far as I can get!!
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My guess with all the detailed info. on the 'long' version of your g/mother's birth cert. is, although possibly & very likely not married, they either lost touch or he decided not to keep in touch once he arrived back home in Australia?
It would be good to find out his life story but by ordering a copy of your g/mother's marriage cert. you will be able to see what she'd scored out.
A DNA test would likely prove one way or another whether there's a McArthur connection.
Annie
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The only info we have is the birth certificate. Which says they are married and living together.
But can't find anything online.
Dates do match up,on J.F.M. McArthur. But that's as far as I can get!!
A birth certificate would only give the place/address where the child was born and the address of the informant. Unless the father was the informant his address would not appear.
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Alice McArthur, born 1896
Admitted 30 June 1919
from 15 Montpelier St., S Ken
C of E, Housewife
Sister Mrs Dunn, 160 Markhouse Rd, Walthamstow
Violet Florence McArthur born 30 June 1919
Marriage, Dec 1904, Brighton, Arthur Dunn + Agnes Tapp
1911 census free index, see original for address
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWF6-PZ7
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Wow! Thank you!
Where did you find the first information? Very curious!! Alice did have a sister Agnus, named after her mother.
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The only info we have is the birth certificate. Which says they are married and living together.
But can't find anything online.
Dates do match up,on J.F.M. McArthur. But that's as far as I can get!!
A birth certificate would only give the place/address where the child was born and the address of the informant. Unless the father was the informant his address would not appear.
Her birth was at a different location, then her address.
Her birth address and where her parents live is on the certificate. But Alice could have lied.
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My guess with all the detailed info. on the 'long' version of your g/mother's birth cert. is, although possibly & very likely not married, they either lost touch or he decided not to keep in touch once he arrived back home in Australia?
How/ where can you see the long version of the certificate.
My Nana was raised as a Deakin. And only used this name on marriage certificate for legal reasons, I assuming. But she never wanted to know!
It would be good to find out his life story but by ordering a copy of your g/mother's marriage cert. you will be able to see what she'd scored out.
A DNA test would likely prove one way or another whether there's a McArthur connection.
Annie
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Hi
That info was from the Thavies Inn creed register
Which is on FamilySearch if you have that
Two images, 8/9 from bottom
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1P-M3BM-H
Also buried away on ancestry.co.uk
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1557/images/47015_552941-00349
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This is fantastic!! And the proof I needed. ITS THE SAME ALICE!!
Thank you so much jonw65!!
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My guess with all the detailed info. on the 'long' version of your g/mother's birth cert. is, although possibly & very likely not married, they either lost touch or he decided not to keep in touch once he arrived back home in Australia?
It would be good to find out his life story but by ordering a copy of your g/mother's marriage cert. you will be able to see what she'd scored out.
A DNA test would likely prove one way or another whether there's a McArthur connection.
Annie
Annie, could you please share a link to it?. So I can see it! PLEASE 🙏
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"My guess with all the detailed info. on the 'long' version of your g/mother's birth cert."
"How/ where can you see the long version of the certificate."
"Annie, could you please share a link to it?. So I can see it! PLEASE"
Sorry to confuse you, you already have the 'long' version as the short version doesn't give the detailed info. you have.
There are no birth certificates available online for 1919-1920 in the UK only indexes & have to be ordered at full price.
Annie
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I am not sure why this thread has been ticked, as in closing it.
But here is a live link to the AIF service record for Pte Jack McArthur ...
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=1937288
At page 1 you will notice he enlisted in Australia in 1915, he was a single man, born in Australia, and he gave his full name as Jack Frank Muller McARTHUR. He was a Presbyterian.
Page 10 gives a timeline for his service, including
23 Jan 1918 to the Military hospital, Sutton Veny, discharged 11 Feb 1918 - to Overseas Training Brigade, Longbridge, Deverill, arrived there 19 Feb 1918.
11 March 1918, back to Sutton Veny Hospital, Influenza
27 March 1918, to No. 1 Com Depot, Sutton Veny
11 December 1918, RTA per HT Saxon.
30 Jan 1919, arrive Melbourne for transfer to Brisbane.
1 April 1919, discharged Medically Unfit, Brisbane.
I cannot find any evidence that this Australian soldier was in London. I am not familiar with English localities, but Sutton Veny seems to still be near Warminster, in Wiltshire. Also, it seems to me that he was not a Private, but had risen to a Corporal back in 1916, and was still a corporal when admitted to Sutton Veny hospital with Influenza in March 1918 (several pages, including p. 15).
So there's Corporal Jack F.M. McArthur #3386, and there's his brother also with the initial J, as in James, and his AIF # is 3387, he returned to Australia in 1917, here is his service file :
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=1937294
Alice McArthur, born 1896
Admitted 30 June 1919
from 15 Montpelier St., S Ken
C of E, Housewife
Sister Mrs Dunn, 160 Markhouse Rd, Walthamstow
Violet Florence McArthur born 30 June 1919
Marriage, Dec 1904, Brighton, Arthur Dunn + Agnes Tapp
1911 census free index, see original for address
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWF6-PZ7
This is fantastic!! And the proof I needed. ITS THE SAME ALICE!!
Thank you so much jonw65!!
May I mention that Jack Frank Muller McARTHUR married on 17 October 1921, in Queensland. The Qld bdm index is here:
https://www.familyhistory.bdm.qld.gov.au/
He died 30 August 1925, death registered in New South Wales. His deceased estate file is with the NSW Archives.
Sorry, kinda lost touch.
Jack McArthur is the father's name. He was a Private for the Australian Imperial force at the headquarters in London, in 1919. Living with Alice Edith at 15 Montpelier street, Knightsbridge. I recently found out there was a home for Disabled Vets on Montpelier st, somewhere.
Violet was born in the Thavies Inn Infirmary V.D ward.
Alice states her name as McArthur, formally known as Tapp.
In 1920, Violet is already in the custody of the Deakins. As Alice signs papers giving her rights away. No father mentioned 1920.
And mistakenly writes Miss Alice on the papers but crosses it out
ADD
I have not yet found anything to suggest that either of these brothers were living in London in 1918.
I have not yet found anything to suggest that Jack McARTHUR sought and obtained a divorce prior to his 1921 marriage ... so I suggest he was a bachelor when he married in 1921.
JM
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I have added to my recent post, and then noticed several 'green lights are on' :) :) .
JM
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Hi
My green light is back on.
The proof that curioushistory refers to is that the Alice Tapp who gave birth to Violet in 1919 at Thavies Inn Infirmary (and claimed to be Mrs McArthur), is the same lady who married in Walthamstow in 1921.
18 Sep 1921, St Mary Walthamstow
William David Patmore
+
Alice Edith Tapp, Spinster, father Trayton Tapp
https://www.essexarchivesonline.co.uk//ancestry.aspx?id=1572155
Mrs Dunn (Agnes), the sister named on the workhouse record, was also a daughter of Trayton Tapp.
John
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agh, thanks. So the Private, Jack McARTHUR, residing in London with Alice, in 1919, may well be a 'convenient' name, rather than a real AIF soldier.
JM
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JM...I really have to commend you on your detailed researches, not only on this thread but always which is fantastic!
I'm guessing Alice didn't make up a name with several initials which happen to be the same as J F M McArthur or is it a huge coincidence?
I did mention DNA previously & now reiterate :)
Annie
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:) Thanks Annie, :) I am wondering if perhaps another Australian soldier, any name, but only a Private, may have impersonated Corporal Jack.
JM
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First timer so...I am hoping for help finding anything on my Nana, Violet Florence McArthur. Born June 30th 1919 in London City . Mother Alice Tapp, father not on record of birth, do not know if they married. She was raised by Lawrence (Philip) and Mabel May Deakin nee Beare. When Violet met my Granddad she was using the name Deakin. She died in 1991. Never knowing.
I do know that no records were kept so early on but....just hoping to find a first name for Mr. McArthur, or what happened to Alice? thank you
So, originally we did not actually have a given name for the baby's dad....
JM
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JM...
What I was thinking prior to rechecking dates by scrolling back, was, had Alice met 'McArthur' in the big smoke i.e. London while he was in England & decided to use his name in the hope of never being 'found out' with him not being a local rather than being embarrassed?
How minds work???? :D
Again...DNA! ;D
Annie
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Yes, exactly.
JM
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The way to go is without doubt, down the DNA route as with any illegitimacy where the father was not present to register the birth as paternity.
Annie
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The only info we have is the birth certificate. Which says they are married and living together.
But can't find anything online.
Dates do match up,on J.F.M. McArthur. But that's as far as I can get!!
A birth certificate would only give the place/address where the child was born and the address of the informant. Unless the father was the informant his address would not appear.
Her birth was at a different location, then her address.
Her birth address and where her parents live is on the certificate. But Alice could have lied.
Unless the father was the informant there is no proof that he was resident at any address mentioned on the birth certificate.
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The BC of Violet gives father's name as (Private) Jack with no middle initials i.e. (Corporal) Jack F M McArthur may be a red herring?
Edit to add...
Reply #23 "I wondering if Violet was born after her father died. And she got his Surname, but parents never married??"
Does the info. on the BC give Jack as 'Deceased'?
I have one such birth (my g g/mother) where her father was deceased prior to her birth, signed by her mother stating her father was 'Deceased'.
I have her birth cert, their marriage cert. & his death cert.
They were married just short of 7 months when he died.
Annie
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Good thinking Annie, :)
So back in 2016 when this thread was started, our OP had no father named on the birth record, but Violets mum was surnamed Mcarthur, maiden surname TAPP... so presumes MCARTHUR is father... but .... where are the dots from that to a Private in AIF in London ..... and from there to given name of Jack....
In Australia, Jack is not only a given name, but it is also a nickname for John, etc. It is also a general nickname .... so can be for any male Christian name .... a bit like any Tom or Dick or Harry .... so in my Australian families ... I can find Jack in WWI era as nickname for George and for Matthew ... :)
I wonder when our OP will next post on this thread ... :)
JM
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JM...
The original birth info. (I think) was from the short birth cert?
The full birth cert. gives Jack McArthur as 'Private' in AIF (I think) but where the info. re London comes from, I don't know?
It would be good if curioushistory could transcribe the 'full' birth cert. with all details so we know where to go from there?
Annie
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I have noticed a public tree online has the GRO birth cert for Violet.
Col. 1. Thirtieth June 1919, 546 Robin Hood Court,
Col 2. Violet Florence
Col 3, girl,
Col 4. Jack Mcarthur
Col 5. Alice Edith Mcarthur, formerly Tapp
Col 6. Private Australian Headquarters (Commercial Clerk) of 15 Montpelier Street, South Kensington
Col 7. Alice McArthur, Mother, 15 Morntpelier Street South Kensington
Col8 Seventh July, 1919
JM.
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Huge difference in occupation for Jack... both before and after his AIF service, Jack Frank Muller MCARTHUR was on the land, a farmer and grazier as were other family members. To me, a Commercial Clerk is a significant desk job, highly trained, involved in contracts admin, banking, insurance, etc.
JM
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Deleted, this post is same as my reply #75
JM.
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Deleted, same as #75 cybersphericals must have been looking for something to do... triplicate posts ... never seen that at RChat.
JM.
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So in July 1919, Alice registered her baby. May I note that the A.I.F headquarters at that time were at 130 Horseferry Rd, WESTMINSTER W1.
In 1919 would it be easy to travel daily from 15 Montpelier St, South Kensington to 130 Horseferry Rd, WESTMINSTER?... wearing a Private uniform ...
JM.
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When I started this years ago, it didn't have the info I have today.
My Nana Violet was never interested, so my Dad gave the papers in question to his cousin in England. When I started my search, he forwarded them to me.
The full birth certificate and the letter from Alice. And my Aunt gave me a picture of Alice.
The above details are all correct from the certificate. I assumed it was not filled out by them.
Jack McArthur, Private at headquarters in London.
I am at a dead end now knowing Jack could be John or whoever. Everything Is am looking for is in-between censuses!!
I have had my eye on
J.F.M McArthur. Departs England 1918. Marries 1921. And dies in 1925.
You guys are great, I could not have connected "the Alice's", without you. It would be amazing if you could find my mysterious "Jack!". Thanks again
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I do have Violet's marriage certificate. She doesn't name her father or his occupation.
I was told she went by her "given parents" name, Deakin. And had to use the name McArthur on the certificate.
Correction: on the birth certificate the address of birth is 5 + 6 Robin Hood Court.
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So...Jack Frank Miller/Muller McArthur #3386. In 1917, in letter to his mother states. His forwarding address is...
15th Batt. 11th reinforcements.
4th Australian division. A.I.F. ABOARD
AND on the same paper...
J. McArthur #3387
Corporal. 15th Batt, Australian Infantry, 130 Horseferry Rd. Westminster, London.
Both wounded in 1917. Both inventually end up in London.
Mother listed as E. McArthur
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Something not adding up :-\
Please see reply #57 from JM...
"May I mention that Jack Frank Muller McARTHUR married on 17 October 1921, in Queensland. The Qld bdm index is here:
https://www.familyhistory.bdm.qld.gov.au/
He died 30 August 1925, death registered in New South Wales. His deceased estate file is with the NSW Archives."
Annie
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So...Jack Frank Miller/Muller McArthur #3386. In 1917, in letter to his mother states. His forwarding address is...
15th Batt. 11th reinforcements.
4th Australian division. A.I.F. ABOARD
AND on the same paper...
J. McArthur #3387
Corporal. 15th Batt, Australian Infantry, 130 Horseferry Rd. Westminster, London.
Both wounded in 1917. Both inventually end up in London.
Mother listed as E. McArthur
Please carefully read the two separae files. One for Jack Frank Muller MCARTHUR, service no. 3386 and one for his brother,James, #3387. Neither brother recorded anywhere in those files as ending up in London.
Their mum was given their postal addresses.... that was standard practice, from AIF, afterall she had written to the AIF seeking the addresses so they replied, giving address for each son... #3386, .... ABROAD .... so that could have been anywhere .... not just sonewuhere in England ... but anywhere . France, Scotland, New Zealand, Canada ...... BUT that was the address to put on the envelope so that the sender could send letters without needing to pay overseas postage. .... so it took at least six weeks, and often up to ten weeks for the mail from eastern states of Australia to reach England. At Australian Headquarters the mail was then sorted and sent to the then last known location of the unit. Just because a mail address said 130 Horseferry Rd, that does not mean the soldier was living there.
#3387 James Mcarthur was returned to Australia, much earlier than his brother. He was not a Private.
# 3386 Jack Frank Muller Mcarthur' s address was not ever given as anywhere in London. He was not a Private .
15 Montpelier St, South Kensibgton, was not ever a hospital. There was a hospital on Montepelier Road EALING, but that is not the same address.
We need to find other candidates... not either of those brothers.
JM.
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It would be very interesting to know just what 15 Montpelier St, South Kensington consisted of as it seems to be rather a very large building in an upmarket area?
In recent times there was Montpeliano Restaurant next door at 13 Montpelier St...
Can be seen here...http://www.rootschat.com/links/01q5w/
No. 15 would either be immediately to the left or right of the restaurant.
Annie
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I would like to think there is a Private Jack McArthur. Alice goes as far to call herself a housewife. Lists him as father. And give her baby that name. Alice has a boy, couples years before. And names him Tapp.
But the facts are... Father wasn't there for birth in 1919 and/or adoption in 1920.
Alice states she is a spinster on her marriage certificate to Patmore in 1921
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What's confusing me is Jack is also referred to as 'Commercial Clerk' i.e. is this a Private Commercial Clerk working in the offices of/at 130 Horseferry Rd. Westminster, London & not a 'Private' in the AIF?
Annie
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I would like to think there is a Private Jack McArthur. Alice goes as far to call herself a housewife. Lists him as father. And give her baby that name. Alice has a boy, couples years before. And names him Tapp.
But the facts are... Father wasn't there for birth in 1919 and/or adoption in 1920.
Alice states she is a spinster on her marriage certificate to Patmore in 1921
What document shows her as a housewife?
When she registered Violet, she gave her name as Mcarthur, formerly Tapp. So she had become known as McArhur. You did not need a marriage to become known by another name. The Private, Jack Mcarthur, a Commercial Clerk employed at the Australian Headquarters lived with Alice when she registered Violets birth in July 1919.
ANNIE, that's an excellent question...
JM
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Alice is listed as housewife on papers for the Thavies Inn Infirmary
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'Commercial Clerk' i.e. is this a Private Commercial Clerk working in the offices of/at 130 Horseferry Rd. Westminster, London & not a 'Private' in the AIF?
Or...Is 'Private' referring to The Private Australian Headquarters which would omit 'Private' in any of the above contexts?
Annie
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This helps in defining Jacks occupation i.e. not a 'Private' in the AIF...
"The building at Horseferry Road housed the AIF administration headquarters in Horseferry Road, London. The Training and Command Depot Headquarters were at Tidworth in Wiltshire, where most Australian training camps were"
Edit...I forgot to add there's also an old a pic of the Headquarters on Horseferry Road.
https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/162197-australian-army-hq-london/
War Diaries here, worth a look through if you have a few spare weeks :D
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/AWM4
Annie
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It would be very interesting to know just what 15 Montpelier St, South Kensington consisted of as it seems to be rather a very large building in an upmarket area?
In recent times there was Montpeliano Restaurant next door at 13 Montpelier St...
Attached is the east side of Montpelier Street from Kelly's Directory of Kensington, Notting Hill, Brompton & Knightsbridge 1919
Electoral registers for 1919 have Alfred George Barnes and Emma Mathilde Barnes at 19 Montpelier Street. As we can see from the directory, he was a builder.
Probably them in Battersea in the 1911 free index. I think you need to see the original for the spelling of the name "Matilda", I am not allowed to comment :)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW56-S5T
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Violet's birth certificate
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And the Thavies Inn Infirmary (address Robin Hood Court), Register of Births
30 June 1919
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1B-ZST9-V?i=677
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Adoption paper
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Alice seems consistent with the address 15 Montpelier Street although likely a lodger i.e. have you come across any connection with Alfred George Barnes and Emma Mathilde Barnes in the wider family, possibly related or could they have been relatives/friends of the illusive Jack?
Who were the witnesses to her marriage in 1921 & what addresses show for all?
Annie
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On e reader, cannot do live links .... but...
Https etc .... British history dot a.c. dot UK/ survey London/ vol 45/ pp 116-124
....
Montpelier Street
.... that part of the former Montpelier Estate comprises Nos. 13-27 on the west side ...
The trio at Nos. 13 - 17 was built by 1831.
... the houses were transformed in the late 1920s and 1930s
JM I googled 15 Montpelier Street South Kensington 1919.
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Posting this in case it may be relevant at a later date...
Marriages Jun 1904
Barnes Alfred George Wandsworth 1d 1243
Bourget Mathilde E Wandsworth 1d 1243
Annie
EDIT...to add...A strange coincidence but Reginald Barnes, cousin of Alfred George is a Clerk in an Insurance Brokers! :o
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW56-S5B
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A possible candidate although same name has a middle initial but same area?
Marriages Dec 1925
McArthur John A Kensington 1a 478
Everitt Mary F M Kensington 1a 478
I think if this was my research, I'd be very tempted to get that marriage to see his occupation :)
Annie
Please see my edit above...Reply #94
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Curiouser and curiouser cried Alice. ... yes, that's an interesting marriage at Kensington... and leading back to #94 ... insurance brokers. 8)
JM
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Marriages Dec 1925
McArthur John A Kensington 1a 478
Everitt Mary F M Kensington 1a 478
A divorce
Divorce Court File: 985. Appellant: John Alexander McArthur. Respondent: Mary Florence Milicent McArthur. Co-respondent: Geoffrey Ernest Coysh. Type: Husband's petition for divorce [HD].
Date 1931
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8064249
Mary FM married Mr Coysh in Chelsea in 1933
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It would be very interesting to know what address Alice gives on the 1921 marriage?
Her address from at least 30th Jun 1919 when she was admitted to Thavies until at least 22 Sep 1920 when she signed the adoption of Violet was 15 Montpelier Street (Knightsbridge) but...
1919 Alfred (George) & (Emma Mathilde) Barnes are at 15 Montpelier Street yet no sign of either Alice or Jack?
However, Jack unfortunately was not a 'Private' but a Commercial Clerk.
When I downloaded the cert. I enlarged it & although a bit blurry it's obvious the 'Private' is part of the address, Private Australian Headquarters then his occupation in brackets then his address in the order it normally would be.
Annie
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Wow, well sorted Annie,
So there's actually nothing to indicate that Jack McARTHUR was a) an Australian or b) a soldier in any army.
So we are left with looking for a Jack McARTHUR who, in July 1919 was employed as a Commercial Clerk, by the Private Australian Headquarters located at 15 Montpelier St, South Kensington.... So does that mean he was a Commercial Clerk for the Builders :) .... so does this then mean that "Private" is used on that birth cert to mean 'confidential' or 'secret' ...
JM
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Sorry but Private Australian Headquarters as an address makes no sense to me :-\
What could be private about it?
Commercial Clerk in brackets would be a peacetime occupation, given perhaps because it was now peacetime again? Or, yes, because although he was a private, he was being used by the army as a clerk. But not a commercial one.
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The heading of the particular column ... (its column 6)
6
Occupation of father
So, on reading it again .... I note that a) It does not ask for any address at all and b) it does not ask for the name of the employer.
Also, I should mention that the public tree at Ancestry has mis-read the date of birth on the cert, and they have it as 13th June 1919. It is clearly Thirtieth June 1919 on the image of the cert I have sighted.
JM
ADD at five past nine a.m. NSW daylight savings time.
So I think my post continues to be relevant :
Wow, well sorted Annie,
So there's actually nothing to indicate that Jack McARTHUR was a) an Australian or b) a soldier in any army.
So we are left with looking for a Jack McARTHUR who, in July 1919 was employed as a Commercial Clerk, by the Private Australian Headquarters located at 15 Montpelier St, South Kensington.... So does that mean he was a Commercial Clerk for the Builders :) .... so does this then mean that "Private" is used on that birth cert to mean 'confidential' or 'secret' ...
JM
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So there's actually nothing to indicate that Jack McARTHUR was a) an Australian or b) a soldier in any army.
Having read Jon's reply it would seem his occ. was 'Private' as well as Commercial Clerk but nothing to suggest he was Australian or not
So we are left with looking for a Jack McARTHUR who, in July 1919 was employed as a Commercial Clerk, by the Private Australian Headquarters located at 15 Montpelier St, South Kensington.... So does that mean he was a Commercial Clerk for the Builders :) .... so does this then mean that "Private" is used on that birth cert to mean 'confidential' or 'secret' ...
The use of the address of 15 Montpelier St. (Builders) is a mystery, not the Australian HQ which is Horseferry Road.
I've spent hrs going through records & I can't find anything on either Alice or Jack.
Commercial Clerk in brackets would be a peacetime occupation, given perhaps because it was now peacetime again? Or, yes, because although he was a private, he was being used by the army as a clerk. But not a commercial one.
If in fact it was 'peacetime' which it would seem to be in 1919 it makes it more suspect as to why he's absent from all paperwork involved relating to Violet.
It actually seemed rather odd to see so much detail about him on the BC in his absence although I haven't seen too many English certs.
I found it odd the address of 15 Montpelier Street needed to be written twice considering they were supposedly married?
Annie
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Wow, well sorted Annie,
So there's actually nothing to indicate that Jack McARTHUR was a) an Australian or b) a soldier in any army.
So we are left with looking for a Jack McARTHUR who, in July 1919 was employed as a Commercial Clerk, by the Private Australian Headquarters located at 15 Montpelier St, South Kensington....
I have found nothing saying there is an Australian headquarters on Montpelier street.
So does that mean he was a Commercial Clerk for the Builders :) .... so does this then mean that "Private" is used on that birth cert to mean 'confidential' or 'secret' ...
JM
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curoiushistory,
You have quoted a previous post above but have not given a reply, was it an error?
Annie
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Found curious' reply. :) :)
..... follows my words with ....'I have found nothing saying there is an Australian Headquarters located at 15 Montpelier St...' :) .. .I reiterate ... the registrar has recorded the info in col 6, and it is confusing but it is not giving the father as a military person with a rank of Private or a former AIF Pte. (Pte being the usual abbreviation for Private) nor is it referring to the Australian Imperial Force Headquarters at Horseferry Road.
One of the 12 public trees at Ancestry has a photo of Jim and Jack Mcarthur in their AIF uniforms... Jim with three stripes, Jack with two. :) so neither as Private and likely photo taken in Britain prior to Jim returning to Australia, so 1917.
JM.
Wow, well sorted Annie,
So there's actually nothing to indicate that Jack McARTHUR was a) an Australian or b) a soldier in any army.
So we are left with looking for a Jack McARTHUR who, in July 1919 was employed as a Commercial Clerk, by the Private Australian Headquarters located at 15 Montpelier St, South Kensington....
I have found nothing saying there is an Australian headquarters on Montpelier street.
So does that mean he was a Commercial Clerk for the Builders :) .... so does this then mean that "Private" is used on that birth cert to mean 'confidential' or 'secret' ...
JM
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I always thought it was strange. The way it is worded... Jack is a commercial clerk of 15 Montpelier street.
But unless there are multiple units above the builders, it makes no sense, to me that she is using the same address.
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I've just finished transcribing a parish baptism register for 1800-1812, and quite a few of the illegitimate children have second names that could be surnames. Of course mother's maiden name or other family names are quite often recorded in this way, but in one case there are twins and their names are recorded as John Izod and Elizabeth Izod. I've had to record them as though it is a second Christian name, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that this is the name of the father. Certainly worth investigating!
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Welcome Julia, yes often a surname is used as a middle name.
The baby born in 1919 was given two Christian names : Violet Florence. Yes, her mother registered the birth, naming the father as Jack Mcarthur. The birth was recorded as legitimate the record found by jonw65.
JM
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On my Dad's other side of the tree, there are lots of maiden names used. In that tree the illegitimate childs middle name was the father surname.
But I am assuming my Nana's middle name Florence is from Alice's sister Florence Eliza. And Violet's legal last name before she married was McArthur.
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It is really odd the continual use of 15 Montpelier Street with nothing found in relation to Alice & Jack...
I actually started to wonder if the word after 'Private' was really 'Australian' or something else...
The only other thing I could come up with was 'Auctioneer' which looked a close fit (& same amount of letters) but not close enough as the 4th letter from the right definitely has an upward stroke i.e. the 'l' ::)
I noticed in the list Jon posted from the directories there was a Mrs A Clark at 13 Montpelier Street i.e. is it possible Alice got the wrong no. either in error or by choice for whatever reason?
My head is thinking all sorts of scenarios in the hope of something being found to connect them some how?
What's puzzling is, when Alice is admitted to Thavies, why is the location of 'Jack' not recorded?
Her sister Agnes is recorded as is her address but 'Jack' escapes the 'paperwork' from there on in!
I'm beginning to wonder if there's a connection with the Builder & his cousin, possibly how they met, same type of occ. recorded & was Alice kind of forced to lie about the paternity of Violet ???
I think if it was me, especially with so many links with the half siblings etc. my plan would be a DNA test as so far there's absolutely nothing in a paper trail to even try to follow the McArthur surname which I really think has been made up for some reason.
It would be interesting to know more about her '2nd' marriage & how they afforded to emigrate to Australia so soon after her giving Violet up for adoption?
Annie
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Fascinating topic and great research
Curioushistory if you take DNA it would show connections to descendants of violets half siblings and you may get a cluster of connections to the birth father or if there is a connection to adoptive family .
Regarding affording passage to Australia was this at a time when cheap passage was offered to encourage emigration ?
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From:
http://www.migrationheritage.nsw.gov.au/exhibition/objectsthroughtime-history/1918-1939/index.html
' In the 1920's .......British migrants were encouraged to settle in Australia. The Australian Government paid most of their fare and, like the soldiers before them, some were assisted to establish farms.'