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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: hookleg on Tuesday 27 December 16 21:54 GMT (UK)
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James was born in Norton, Suffolk in 1846. He married Emma and had a family of seven children. I can track him to Mapperley, Derbyshire. He was living there with his wife and family in 1891 and he was a boarder with the Appleyard family. They were coal hewers and their sons worked with pit ponies. James himself was a carpenter by trade, but I can only assume this was down the pit in Mapperley. In 1901 his wife is a school mistress with her daughter Etheldreda in Wildsworth Lincs. After this date I cant find James, Emma or Ethelreda. Any suggestions or concrete info most welcome.
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Does his wife say she is married or widowed in 1901?
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Married
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I've found what I think is the death of Emma. DEC 1938 • East Retford, Nottinghamshire, England
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A tree on ancestry has son Oswald dying in South Africa.
Do you know which family members moved there?
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James was born in Norton, Suffolk in 1846. He married Emma and had a family of seven children. I can track him to Mapperley, Derbyshire. He was living there with his wife and family in 1891 and he was a boarder
1891 James and family were in Mapperley Derbys
1901 James was in Mapperley boarding with the Appleyards and described as Married
Suz
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So has anyone found Etheldreda or Emma in 1911 or anywhere?
Added:
Son Leonard Norman Downing in military in 1906, marries Litchfield 1919, in 1939 in Leeds under Dowey, and dies in 1940.
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On Leonard Norman Downing's military records it has his father James Downing and mother Emma Downing's address as 13 Drayton Road, Boreham Wood, Herts. Mentions brothers Oswald and Henry but no mention of sister Etheldreda.
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There are some newspaper reports October 1909 that may relate to Etheldreda Downing:
'At Northampton Assizes a strange story of a mock marriage . Silas Brine was charged to an offence with respect to Etheldreda Downing, and also with causing a false entry to be made into the marriage register in Kettering.
It was stated that the prisoner met Miss Downing, an Elstree schoolteacher in June 1905. Subsequently they became engaged and he took her to London to marry her. She believed they went through some form of marriage.'
The following April Silas deserted her and then in September 1909 he married a Lily Wilson using the name John Francis Leopold Sharpe. It was Lily that reported him to the police.
Etheldreda gave birth to a child in June 1906.
Northampton Mercury 29 October 1909 gives the more detailed report.
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Emma Downing gave evidence at the trial of Silas Brine in October 1909, so at least she was still around then.
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Possible name for child born in 1906:
Norah Mary Downing Brine
GRO Ref: 1906 S Quarter FULHAM Vol:01a Page:233
Mother's maiden name: Downing
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Familysearch as Norah Mary Downing on 1911 Census Elstree, Boreham Wood Hertfordshire, Middlesex, England.
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There is an incoming passenger list for Nora Mary Downing Brine from South Africa. Arrival date 12 March 1928. Age 21. Occupation clerk. Proposed address Bleak House, Boughton, Ollerton, Newark.
William
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Hi, not sure if you knew this already
He is still with the Appleyard family in 1901
RG13
Piece no 3227
Folio 27
Page 10
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Possible marriage for Nora:
Marriages December quarter 1928
Nora M D Brine E.Retford 7b 13
Charles C C Walker E.Retford 7b 13
and a possible husband
Births June quarter 1900
Charles Cecil C Walker Hemsworth 9c 183
(dies 1953 Basford)
Added:
and her death:
Nora Mary D Walker
born 7th June 1906
registered death in April 1984 age 77
Registration district Nottingham Volume 8 Page 709
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Following on from sgf28's excellent finds you can find on Familysearch 1911 census James Downing and Emma Hannah Downing living in Elstree. (The actual image is easy to find on its partner site but I have failed miserably to locate the same image on its major rival!).
As Chempat has indicated Nora Mary Downing Brine appears to have married a Charles Walker in East Retford in 1928(Oct - Dec). She died in Nottingham in 1984 - there is an entry in the probate calendar for her. I note that the death you located for Emma was in East Retford.
William
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The 1939 census seems to have Nora as born 1886, also a Georgina Riley/Walker 1887. with Charles C as 1900.
Added:
major rival may have used Dowling, have added a correction.
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There is an incoming passenger list for Nora Mary Downing Brine from South Africa. Arrival date 12 March 1928. Age 21. Occupation clerk. Proposed address Bleak House, Boughton, Ollerton, Newark.
William
On the 8th May 1922 departing Southampton for Cape, South Africa on Vessel Saxon was a N M Brine aged 15 address in UK 49, Stanton Road, Ilkeston, the same address as another passenger an O W Downing 37 occ Engineer
Keyboard86
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WOW!! Thanks so much to everyone who has found info for me. Poor Etheldreda what a dreadful situation to find oneself in. I wonder if she continued to use the name Brine? Perhaps she went to South Africa with her daughter. Most helpful research from all the RootsChat members who have posted on this topic. What a fantastic lot you all are. Regards. Hookleg
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Hi all, anyone any thoughts of the whereabouts of Etheldreda Downing/Brine b 1881 Suffolk in 1911 onwards?
Keyboard86
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South Africa? Under initials in 1911?
I did hope that Nora would have children, but I don't think they did.
I also wondered if she changed her name, as Etheldreda is a bit of a mouthful, but probably not.
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:) A puzzle, not with daughter Nora aged 15 with her brother Oswald on 1922 voyage?
Keyboard86
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I have a subscription to 'A' genealogy site and can't get any of the info about Silas Brine, Etheldreda's marriage or Leonard Norman Downings marriage (s). Have I made the wrong choice of site??? I wonder.
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Silas Brine's marriage to Etheldreda didn't happen so there won't be any records and the name Silas Brine was one of his aliases.
His marriage to Lily Wilson was in 3rd qtr 1909 Kettering Vol:3b Page:436, he used the name John Francis Leopold Sharpe, age 28, bachelor, an electrical engineer.
To add to the names, when Silas was arrested 26th April 1906, by Birmingham City Police in Birmingham(it doesn't say what for) he was using the name Johnson but his arrest warrant was under the name of Turner. He said he had deserted from the Army three times, enlisted for the first time using the name of Turner but had took the name of Sharpe in 1906 and had used that name since. He said that he had never used the name Brine in the Army but had been known by that name by the police.
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One of the newspaper reports from the trial says that Silas was the son of a Boreham Wood gardener and that he had got two other girls from Luton into trouble aswell.
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This maybe a possibility for Silas Brine:
1891 Laymore, Wellhouse Lane, Thorncombe, Axminster, Devon
Albert Edward Brine,35, ag lab, Dorset
Sarah, 40, wife
Silas, 12, Thorncomb, Dorset
Tom, 10
Jane, 8
Sidney, 7
Ernest, 4
Harry,1
1901 Census has Albert Edward Brine and family living at Ferndale, Boreham Wood Station Road, Elstree, Elstree (Herts), Silas isn't at home.
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Picture of Silas Brine on Ancestry.
Deaths given as 1942 or 1955.
A claimed marriage to Rose Florence Poynter in October quarter 1914 in Lewisham (?) also that he used the name Francis Brine.
Also that in 1939 he lived at 34 Dermody Road, Lewisham, England and in 1951 was a gentleman of the road in a wood by a reservoir in Elstree.
Death for Rose:
Deaths March quarter 1947
Rose Brine age 58 Taunton 7c 339
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Silas Brine has records for the Royal Navy, so was using that name for them if not for army.
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Thanks so much for the extra info. I did look at the photo on the tree and look at the Devon connection. 'Silas' seems to have been a right so and so! It seems then that Etheldreda must have met 'Silas' (or whoever he was) through her brother Oswald on the way to or in South Africa.