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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lincolnshire => Topic started by: moiramount on Wednesday 28 December 16 21:34 GMT (UK)
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Any info of Marriage of John Patrick Flannery formerly from Tipperary Ireland born c1916. Died in Scunthorpe 1952. Believed to be a bigamist. Had a brother called Frank.
Thanks
Moira
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Have you searched for possible marriage here?
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
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According to John Patrick Flannery's probate record his widow was a Rose Flannery. He died 24 May 1952.
JJ
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Hi thanks for replying, I have looked on Free bmd but no marriage for them, even his death isn't listed.
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Hello,
His death is listed on Free BMD John Flannery December 1952 Scunthorpe.
Do you know if there were any children? That would give you a wife's surname.
Do you know if he married in Scunthorpe area or elsewhere?
Heywood
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Hi we have got the marriage to Brenda Billups, Rother Valley but it's this Roseon his probate record that's puzzling.
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I am posting on the other thread - the will might help with info re Rose.
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Looking on the death certificate he is down as just John Flannery but what is puzzling is he was killed due to an accident in May 1952 but his death wasn't registered until November 1952. Not sure why this was.
In 1951 he was classed as living in Rawmarsh, Rotherham then in 1952 he was classed as living in the Hutment camp, Scunthorpe.
Do we have the right John Flannery or are there two.?
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Apply for the will for more information?
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Should the 2 threads be merged?
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... what is puzzling is he was killed due to an accident in May 1952 but his death wasn't registered until November 1952. Not sure why this was.
There might have been the need for an inquest or accident inquiry which would normally delay things.
See https://bereavementadvice.org/topics/death-certificate-and-coroners-inquest/coroners-inquests
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Looking on the death certificate he is down as just John Flannery but what is puzzling is he was killed due to an accident in May 1952 but his death wasn't registered until November 1952. Not sure why this was.
In 1951 he was classed as living in Rawmarsh, Rotherham then in 1952 he was classed as living in the Hutment camp, Scunthorpe.
Do we have the right John Flannery or are there two.?
The other thread is here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=761864.
Sorry, confused again.
Did your John Flannery die in 1952?
Was he the one who married in 1951?
If so, how is he described on the marriage certificate? Is he a bachelor?
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yes he is down as a bachelor on the marriage cert in 1951 and his address then was 203 Abbeyfield rd, Pitsmoor, Sheffield, he then lived in Rawmarsh, Rotherham with his wife. When he died in 1952 he lived in Scunthorpe Lincs.
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Everything seems to be quite muddled and having two threads looking for the same person doesn't help, Moira (at this point merging the 2 threads would probably only cause more confusion as one merged topic wouldn't flow very well).
I did numerous searches for a birth record for 'John Patrick Flannery' born c1916 in Tipperary/Ireland without a likely match but if we've been searching for the wrong person...
So, Moira, exactly what are the known facts about the person you are looking for? Please tell us exactly what you started with on the correct person. In other words, is the death certificate for the correct person? the marriage certificate? etc.
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The probate record and the death cert both have the same address but the probate one has him down as John Patrick Flannery but the death cert only says John Flannery. According to ages on all certs , they tally up giving him a birth year of 1916. According to my friends grandmother he came from Tipperary, Ireland and he was a bigamist and died five months after his only child was born in 1951. On the probate record he left his widow Rose £819.5s in May 1952.
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On the probate record he left his widow Rose £819.5s in May 1952.
No, a Rose Flannery (wdow) was appointed to probate his estate. This does not mean that she received anything in his Will. You need to order the Will to see who was mentioned and what he bequeathed to them.
The probate record and the death cert both have the same address but the probate one has him down as John Patrick Flannery but the death cert only says John Flannery.
Who was the informant on the death certificate? was it a Rose Flannery, another relative or coroner, etc.?
According to my friends grandmother he came from Tipperary, Ireland and he was a bigamist
How do they 'know' he was a bigamist?
What is listed as father's name and occupation on his 'second' marriage certificate?
Some of these questions might have been answered previously but I am deliberately ignoring what has already been posted in order to start sifting through facts.
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We only have one marriage cert and that is to Brenda Billups in 1951, father John Flannery , farmer.
Death cert, informant, it says certificate on inquest adjourned and not resumed, recieved from EJR Hett or Mett, deputy coroner for the Kirton district of Lindsey Lincs.
It's been spoken of that he was a bigamist by the family.
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Glad to see that your friend is sending for the will. I hope it gives you some answers and I hope you will be able to share any findings with us to find JF prior to 1951.
Good luck
Heywood
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Yes I have asked my friend to do that.
Thankyou
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Edmund JR HETT - born Paddington 1885, died Scunthorpe 1955, a solicitor in 1939.
The adjournment of the inquest may explain the delay in the death registration.
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Hi Moira :) I don't suppose Brenda Billups had the middle name of Rose?
It may be a possibility and no one was aware, I remember trying to trace my great grandfather who was called William but everyone knew him as Charlie, just a thought.
Frank.
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No she didn't, she is still alive but won't talk about him to her granddaughter who is trying to do this family tree.
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I don't suppose that "Rose Flannery widow" on the probate could have been John Patrick Flannery's mother? if indeed they are the same man :-\
Frank.
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I thought about that Frank but have searched for a marriage in Ireland for a john and rose but cannot find one. We think he had a brother called Frank who was also witness on his marriage cert, wondered too if Rose was Frank's wife but can't find a marriage for that. I have put a post on the Tipperary site as well.
Moira
Will have to wait for a copy of the will.
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I don't suppose that "Rose Flannery widow" on the probate could have been John Patrick Flannery's mother? if indeed they are the same man :-\
Frank.
That's what I asked a while ago but may have been on other site :)
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There is a birth for a John Parick Flannery registered in Q1 1917 in Neagh, Co. Tipperary.
Unfortunately it is just outside the 100 year birth rule so isn't available free online.
John Parick Flannery
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1917
Registration district: Nenagh
Birth Country: Ireland
Volume: 3
Page: 392
Also to note, the 'widow' Rose was granted administration not probate so there is no will as such.
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The birth looks very interesting.
'Probate' shows we should read items more closely.
However, that means that he died intestate does it and would 'Rose' therefore be the widow of the deceased?
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I don't suppose that "Rose Flannery widow" on the probate could have been John Patrick Flannery's mother? if indeed they are the same man :-\
Frank.
That's what I asked a while ago but may have been on other site :)
My apologies, I missed that :-[
Frank.
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However, that means that he died intestate does it and would 'Rose' therefore be the widow of the deceased?
Yep that means he died without making a will and therefore it was up to his next of kin to apply to the court for Letters of Administration to allow them control of his estate.
I'm presuming that she would have had to produce evidence of her identity (at least you do now) and presumably a marriage cert. So I'm assuming that Rose was his first wife and it was the 1951 marriage that was bigamous ?
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Not sure if it had to be next of kin to apply for probate or if you would have needed to supply any sort of proof of identity. For an earlier period I've seen estate files where the applicant had to fill out a form stating that the deceased left _ lawful spouse, _ lawful children, etc. but that may have been done after they were appointed.
Please remember that we are not allowed to post details of living, or possibly living, people.
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if no will was left and it went to probate like it has shown, will there be a will to apply for or will it just be a copy of the probate report that we have already seen or will it be a more indepth one with more info on.
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I don't suppose that "Rose Flannery widow" on the probate could have been John Patrick Flannery's mother? if indeed they are the same man :-\
Frank.
That's what I asked a while ago but may have been on other site :)
My apologies, I missed that :-[
Frank.
Oh I was only pointing out that two of us had a similar idea ;) trying to find Rose!
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Moira,
You once wondered if you had two John Patricks.
I know you know that the 1951 man is yours - how sure are you that the 1852 death is yours?
Heywood
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Hi Heywood, my friends mum said he died about 5 months after she was born. My friend has visited the gravestone but it only says his death and name , nothing else. All the ages tally up.
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Well that helps then. Thanks
Re the administration papers, there might be, or should be :-\ I would imagine, a contact address for Rose.
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ok, we await in anticipation. ;D