RootsChat.Com

Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: mhearn on Saturday 31 December 16 11:54 GMT (UK)

Title: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: mhearn on Saturday 31 December 16 11:54 GMT (UK)
Hi,

Not sure how to word this one. 

I am looking for information on Fanny Vincent Barber Born abt 1839 possibly Bethnal Green.  She married William Manley Hairdresser in 1860.  Her father is named as Charles Barber Artist on the Marriage Certificate.  It doesn't say deceased which is where I'm starting to get a little confused.

There are two artists called Charles Barber that died before that time (well one definitely did).

Charles Vincent Barber (ca. 1784 1854) was an English landscape painter and art teacher.

or

Charles Louis Barber a silhouette paper cutter artist. 

I have found a baptism record for Fanny vincent barber stating Charles Louis Barber as her father which does fit.

Fanny Vincent Barber
Gender:   Female
Baptism Date:   27 May 1838
Baptism Place:   Worksop,Nottingham,England
Father:   Charles Louis Barber
Mother:   Emily
FHL Film Number:   504068, 504070, 504543

I can't find anything else other than the marriage record and 1861 census record where it states she was born in Bethnal Green same as her husband William Manley.

Does anyone have any views or ideas on this at all or maybe where I can go to ascertain some more information.

Thank you for taking the time to read this - I hope I'm making some kind of sense.

Thank you.

Michelle
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: aghadowey on Saturday 31 December 16 12:18 GMT (UK)
This site says Charles Louis Barber working c1820-c1834-
http://www.profilesofthepast.org.uk/artist/barber-charles-louis
This page gives various locations for him-
http://www.profilesofthepast.org.uk/mckechnie/barber-charles-louis-mckechnie-section-1
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: mhearn on Saturday 31 December 16 12:23 GMT (UK)
Hi,

Thank you for you reply.  Yes I've seen this but it doesn't give much personal information.  I'm trying to link the correct Charles Barber to Fanny Vincent Barber.  Thank you again.  Michelle
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 31 December 16 12:52 GMT (UK)
The baptism of Fanny Vincent Barber at St Mary, Worksop on 27 May 1838 gives abode as London.

There is also this baptism
Jessie Frances Silver Barber
25 September 1838
Father Charles Louis Barber
Mother Emily
Abode Hatton Garden
fathers occupation Artist
Shoreditch St Leonard
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 31 December 16 12:59 GMT (UK)
I wonder if this is Charles & Emily's marriage  :-\
Charles Lewis Barber
Emily Middleton
8 Sep 1836
Saint Mary, Newington, Surrey

It does show his middle name as Lewis when he is insolvent
Charles Lewis Barber of East Teignmouth -occupation Landscape painter and pictorial paper cutter -date of court order 13/03/1834
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: MaureeninNY on Saturday 31 December 16 13:25 GMT (UK)
There's a SILVER family in Bethnal Green on the 1851. Father James mother Emily with daughters Fanny and Jessy and several other children. :-\

Maureen
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 31 December 16 13:31 GMT (UK)
That looks interesting Maureen  ;D

James Silver married Emily Middleton Middlecoat -spinster father William Middlecoat a watch maker -March 13th 1842
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 31 December 16 13:43 GMT (UK)
This is possibly the birth of James & Emilys son
SILVER, JAMES  ALBERT     mothers maiden name MIDDLETON     
June Quarter 1843 in Hackney reg dist  Volume 03  Page 164

These are the children that Maureen found with James & Emily Silver in 1851

Jessy Silver   15
Fanny Silver   13
William Silver   11

Emely Silver   9
James Silver   8
Marian Silver   4
Samuel Silver   3
Ellen Silver   9 Mo

BARBER, WILLIAM  WHEATLEY     mmn MIDDLETON     
December Quarter 1839 in SAINT SAVIOUR'S UNION  Volume 04  Page 425
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 31 December 16 13:56 GMT (UK)
I wonder if this is Charles death  :-\
Deaths Sep 1845 
Charles Louis Henry   Barber    
Cambridge    14   10

Newspaper reports of the death indicate that he was a Captain in 15th Hussars, inventor of relievo painting and an artist
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Saturday 31 December 16 14:03 GMT (UK)
1841 - Chichester Place, St Pancras

James Barber    50 - goldsmith
Jessy Barber    28
Jessey Barber    5
Fanny Barber    3
William Barber    1

[Jessie Silver Barber was 2 yrs 4 months on her baptism in 1838]
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Saturday 31 December 16 14:11 GMT (UK)
Charles Louis Henry Barber of St Dunstan In The West
Ann Gros Clarke of kensington, aged upwards of 21 [note some entries look like Kennington]

Application for licence for marriage 3 Sep 1835
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: MaureeninNY on Saturday 31 December 16 15:26 GMT (UK)
And there's this one from the GRO births:
SILVER, ELIZA  EMILY  mmn MIDDLETON     
 1841  S Quarter in SAINT PANCRAS  Volume 01  Page 252

Maureen
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 31 December 16 16:48 GMT (UK)
December 21st 1868 - St Mark, Old Street (Shoreditch)

Samuel Park Silver-full age-Hair Dresser -father James Silver-occ Goldsmith
Marion Cole-father Henry Cole occ Painter
Witnesses Henry Ward and what looks like (F?)anny Manley

Same church 13 Jul 1868
Calib Whitman 20
Ellen Silver 17 father James Silver -can't make out occupation could be Jeweller
wit James Silver & Elizabeth Silver
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Saturday 31 December 16 17:00 GMT (UK)
Jeweller quite likely - this is his occupation on the joblot baptisms of Samuel, Eliza Emily, William Wheatley (surnamed Silver) and James in 1848 - in Bromley for some reason - and of Eleanor [Ellen] in 1851
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Saturday 31 December 16 17:10 GMT (UK)
marriage of James Albert Silver in 1862 has witnesses William Manley and Fanny Vincent Manley
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 31 December 16 17:11 GMT (UK)
Beat me to it Mabel  ;D
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Saturday 31 December 16 17:14 GMT (UK)
Wlliam Manley marries Fanny Vincent Barber, august 20 1860 in St Matthias, Stoke Newington. her father Charles Barber, artist. witnesses Edward Manley and Charlotte Bond
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: Annie65115 on Saturday 31 December 16 17:24 GMT (UK)
I've got lost reading this thread! But just wanted to add that the Worksop baptism (at St Mary's) confirms Charles Louis Barber's occupation as artist.

I wonder why they were in Worksop?
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 31 December 16 17:42 GMT (UK)
Vice-Chancellors' Courts, Thursday, Dec. 10..
    The Times (London, England), Friday, Dec 11, 1846; pg. 6; Issue 19417

You will need to read the article but Charles Lewis Barbers marriage to Emily Middleton was bigamous as he was already married
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Saturday 31 December 16 17:58 GMT (UK)
Possibly the Charles Lewis Henry barber marriage I posted earlier? Interesting to note that Emily's aunt married a Mr silver as well.

If eh was in the army, they may have been in Worksop as he was posted there
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 31 December 16 18:08 GMT (UK)
Chas Lewis Barber of St Mgt Cant artist bach & Eliz Hopley of St Mary Dover (19, moth Eliz H wid), at St Mary D. 20 Jan 1822.
Book - Volume 35
Canterbury Marriage Licences,


poss children from familysearch
Charles Louis Augustus Barber
Christening 16 Apr 1823
St Mary & St Nicholas, Beverley, Yorkshire
Father Charles Louis Barber
Mother Elizabeth

Eliza Hopley Barber
Christening 01 Dec 1824
St. Mary, Dover, Kent
Father Charles Louis Barber
Mother Elizabeth

Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 31 December 16 18:16 GMT (UK)
I've got lost reading this thread! But just wanted to add that the Worksop baptism (at St Mary's) confirms Charles Louis Barber's occupation as artist.

I wonder why they were in Worksop?

Thanks for confirming that Annie, I am not surprised you have got lost reading it I have to keep going back on what we have found.  ;D    I stopped myself from giving more information on the Silver siblings as it would further complicate matters and I am sure mhearn would like us to leave something left to look up

Rosie
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: mhearn on Monday 02 January 17 10:17 GMT (UK)
Oh my goodness.!! I would never have uncovered all that you have so thank you so much.  I will have to keep going back over it to get my head round it. 

It was the marriage certificate that I had to go on initially.  Is it strange that her middle name or double barrelled surname is Vincent?  I thought that might be her mothers maiden name but couldn't find anything. 

In your opinions do you agree that I have the correct Charles Barber? 

Again thank you so much for researching so much for me.  Truly appreciated.
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: rosie99 on Monday 02 January 17 10:36 GMT (UK)
I wonder if Charles Lewis/Louis Barber was somehow related to the Vincent Barbers.  Sometimes children are named after famous people.

If he is the Charles Louis Henry Barber who died in Cambridge there is mention of a  daughter living in London.  I wondered if that was the Eliza Hopley Barber born in Dover.  She married James Elliott a Civil Engineer in 1854 Westminster.  In 1851 she is in St Pancras with her mother HO107 /1494
folio   649 page   81

I will leave you to get your head round it all, come back if you need anymore  help  :)

Rosie
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: mhearn on Monday 02 January 17 10:45 GMT (UK)
Yes thank you.

Hopley is also an artist - Edward William John Hopley 1816-1869 and lived in London.

He could have named them after artists that he knew or admired.

I will read over again what you have found.

Thanks again.

Michelle
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: rosie99 on Monday 02 January 17 10:48 GMT (UK)
It certainly sounds like he was naming them after other artists then  :)
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: mhearn on Monday 02 January 17 14:02 GMT (UK)
Vice-Chancellors' Courts, Thursday, Dec. 10..
    The Times (London, England), Friday, Dec 11, 1846; pg. 6; Issue 19417

You will need to read the article but Charles Lewis Barbers marriage to Emily Middleton was bigamous as he was already married

How do i look this up?  sorry to sound like a complete novice, but I can't find it. I've never looked up something like this before.  Thank you
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: rosie99 on Monday 02 January 17 14:53 GMT (UK)
I have access to The Times online through my local library service using information from my library card.  FindMyPast & the British newspaper archive are both subscription sites with some online newspapers.

Rosie
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: Annie65115 on Monday 02 January 17 17:59 GMT (UK)
To summarise the Times report:

dated 11 Dec 1846, Shuttleworth vs Bengough. A legal argument over property ownership.

Facts stated were:

1824 - a will made by Mr Hussey bequeathed property to his two daughters, Jane and Eliza.
Jane married one Silver, a jeweller, with whom she had no children.
She left her husband in 1809 and had 4 illegitimate children with someone else.

Eliza married a Middleton and had 3 children, one of whom was Emily.

Emily married Charles Lewis Barber but the marriage was bigamous as Barber's first wife was still alive.

The rest is legal argument over which of these relationships held the most validity in terms of the original will.
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: Annie65115 on Monday 02 January 17 18:11 GMT (UK)
I wonder if this is Charles death  :-\
Deaths Sep 1845 
Charles Louis Henry   Barber    
Cambridge    14   10

Newspaper reports of the death indicate that he was a Captain in 15th Hussars, inventor of relievo painting and an artist

Further details of this person: he was apparently about 50 years old and "had a daughter in a situation in the Adelaide Gallery" (wherever that may be?)
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: mhearn on Tuesday 18 July 17 14:27 BST (UK)
Sorry to revive this thread but I'm wondering if anyone can help me.  I currenly have 14 tabs open on my computer (this is all the avenue's that Fanny Vincent Barber / Charles Louis Barber / Silvers have taken me.!!

You might have to read the thread again to work out what I'm asking.

Fanny Vincent Manley on her marriage certificate says her father is Charles Louis Barber (Artist)
upon the lovely people on here looking into it, it looks like she has something to do with the Silver Family also. 

I believe Fanny Vincent Manley got remarried a year after her husband William died to a Oliver James Gluyas.  Occ Painter (I think).  Father is names as Charles Herkley (could be Hinkley) Barber Gentleman.


An article in The Times regarding an indecent assault of Fanny Manley whilst married to William states she beloned to a respectable family, and her father was in receipt of an annuity from the Goldsmiths Company of the City of London.  Which would refer to the Silver family?

Oh and then she got remarried again to Walter Frederick O Leary on 1/9/1890 - states she is a widow, her father is Charles Barber - deceased.

Anyone have any ideas?  Its like I'm looking at two different families but they are the same. 

So so sorry if anyone is confused.  I know I am.!  ??? :-\

Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 18 July 17 14:59 BST (UK)
Quote
Anyone have any ideas?
Can you bit a bit more specific on what your looking for ?
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: mhearn on Tuesday 18 July 17 16:07 BST (UK)
Hi.

We'll I do like to be able to know who Frances/Fanny Vinent Barber father is. Everything points to Charles barber artist but also to James Barber (goldsmith)  Her second husband Oliver James Gluyas she's put a different middle name for her father Charles Barber - can't transcribe it prosperly.  Occ: Gentleman

The newspaper article points towards a goldsmith.
I suppose I'm looking to tie up the loose ends.

maybe what I need to do is write it down and work out how they are tied together first.
Title: Re: Vincent Barber / Charles Barber (Artist) Help
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 18 July 17 16:55 BST (UK)
The problem is that this post is suffering from information overload (if suffering is the right word).
I think there are a lot of different families mentioned which makes for confusing reading, however the consensus & Fanny's own marriage info says her father is Charles (Louis) Barber & I can see nothing to suggest it's anyone else.