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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: John1935 on Monday 02 January 17 14:43 GMT (UK)
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Walter John Tillman b. 1875- d. 1962 ??
Well thought I might try the above Gent again - Details on London /Middlesex Splintered families Post page 1 .
It does seem Westoe -
As one gets yet older so fuzzy logic gets even more fuzzy, but here goes anyway - since last visited I had found more about Walter's father John TILLMAN ( with thanks to 'Auntie's' hint about him a conductor in a Tower Hamlets Band), in fact firstly John was Band master for The United Forester Band of Court Vulcan (1871) then in 1879 Band Sergeant John Tillman Reg No. 1541 of the Tower Hamlets Volunteer Rifle Brigade was appointed Bandmaster, "and the Band played on" under his leadership, till he retired in 1895.
Now this is where the Fuzzy logic comes in regarding his son Walter John -
1. It appears that Tower Hamlets also had a Royal Engineers Section.
2. When WWI started Walter would have been already 39 yrs old, but if he might( one fuzzily thinks) have followed Father and joined Tower Hamlets Volunteers ( Today's Territorials) he would being trained and have been of great use.
The thing is how an earth do we find that out ???
Need his Army joining papers if possible and leaving - had he been injured ?
Still have a long unknown gap between marriage in 1926 and death in 1962.
Have of recent been in touch with Winchester where it does appear that The Green Jackets, and hence some of Tower Hamlets thingys also, and am awaiting further news from them.
Thank you in advance for any help you can give. Best and Happy New year to all.
John1935
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The Tower Hamlets Engineers (Volunteers) were attached to 2 Infantry Divisions during WW1.
They also raised a Rifle Batt.
Why do you believe he was RE ?
As it turns out there is a Medal Roll entry for a Walter John Tillman RE. Cpl. (Act. Sgt.) no. 143960.
It doesn't look like his WW1 records have survived.
There's no entry on the SWB Roll so if he was ever wounded he wasn't discharged.
FindMyPast doesn't have a pre war record for him.
He was awarded the BW & V Medals so didn't go overseas until 1916 at the earliest.
This may have been because (a) if a pre-war TF he may not have elected to serve overseas. This would not have been an option by 1916. (b) he was a civilian & conscripted in 1916.
(c) he volunteered.
More here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_Hamlets_Engineers
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From memory the National Archives research guide for Volunteers advised that no Volunteer records survive in the National Archives apart from ones for Middlesex. It suggests you try local Record Offices. If Volunteers served during the Boer War they joined Volunteer Service Companies created by their parent regiment. They were given new numbers and their records are on FindMyPast as temporary Regulars. But the only indicaion of Volunteer membership is a statement on the Attestation Form of previous military service.
All TF soldiers had to sign the overseas obligation by the start off WW1or were discharged. He could have been kept at home during 1914 and 1915 either as a trainer or on home construction projects. Both TF RE companies were part of 1st London Division which also served in Malta before going to France in 1916.
Ken
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Thanks for the info Jim & Ken
This is a reply that I received from Hampshire Archives, so hope I can at least get more on Walter's father ( John Tillman 1845 - 1895 ).
" We do hold here amongst our collections records of the Royal Green Jackets (HRO reference 170A12W). This collection does hold the following for the 17th London Regiment, Tower Hamlet Rifles (Rifle Brigade):
Muster rolls from 1920-1930 (reference 170A12W/D/4605) Army book 358 Odd numbers 66990001 to 6699888
Book: 1st Tower Hamlets Rifles, later become 9th Rifle Brigade; Dedicated to Dad and the brave men; contains photographs and lists of officers and other ranks (reference 170A12W/D/4059) dated 1939-1945
As you mentioned a band connection, the collection also contains a list of Bandmasters of all regiments of the army 1881-1974 (reference 170A12W/D/0871)
If any of the above are of interest, then you would be most welcome to visit our office to view them : http://www3.hants.gov.uk/archives/visiting-hals.htm If you would like to search the descriptions of this collection, then this can be done using our on-line catalogue : http://calm.hants.gov.uk/ You may find more items of interest ! "
In the meantime will follow thru the info you have kindly given me and no doubt come back, I have Walters Medal card, which as it has the family's address on it is the correct card - Nos; which might give clues ? on back are AFB 104-117 BW & VM 23/12/23.
ON front - second line down is RE/101B250 third line is (I think) ditto ditto at bottom of page is AS/RE/169.
Do any of these numbers show what regiment or when he joined - Please
Thanks again
Best
John
p.s. When T.N.A say only records from Middlesex - didn't Tower hamlets come under London/Middlesex at that time ?
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The numbers are references to where they appear on the Roll.
His no. 143960 is his 1917 number. The TF were re-numbered in 1917 meaning he had another number before that probably a 4 digit number.
They would have been sequential based on when they joined.
Assuming for the time being that he was a pre-war TF he would have been in one of these Coys. based on the above link:
1st London Divisional Engineers
CRE: Lt-Col G.W. Walters, TD
1st London Field Company, RE, Bethnal Green
2nd London Field Company, RE, Bethnal Green
1st London Signal Company, RE HQ and No 1 Section, Bethnal Green
No 2 (1st London) Section, attached 1st London Brigade
No 3 (2nd London) Section, attached 2nd London Brigade
No 4 (3rd London) Section, attached 3rd London Brigade
It also says this about men who hadn't volunteered for overseas service:
On 15 August the TF was ordered to separate men who had volunteered for overseas service from the Home Service men, and on 31 August it was authorised to begin forming Reserve or 2nd Line units composed of Home Service men and recruits.
The 1st. Div. went overseas 1914/15 but as he doesn't have the 14/15 Star didn't go with them that's what makes me believe he didn't sign up for overseas service as a TF.
One route would be to locate the W. Hampstead Absent Voter's list which may say which Coy. he was in.
The other route are the 1/Div. RE diaries which are on Ancestry which may name him at some point but this would mean reading them page by page from Jan. 1916.
The 2/1st. (London) Field Coy. RE (TF) embarked for France Feb. 1916 so may have gone with them.
Re-designated 512 Coy. RE.
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Thanks again Jim
So if Walter didn't go across till 1916, by then he would have been 41 years old, first question is were they conscripted at that age and second is if he was conscripted
, would he have reached the rank of acting sergeant in such a short time without having been with the Tower Hamlets, do you think Jim.
Best
John
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Here is a link to the 1914-1918.net guide to 1917 renumbering - http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-royal-engineers-in-1917/
Men renumbered were given numbers above 400001. Numbers below that were for 'regulars' which included men not in the TF RE at the time of renumbering. So with a number 143960 it is clear that there was a break from his pre WW1 TF service to his service in the RE at the end of the war. Without his record, or him as an informant on a BMD type certificate it is difficult to say what he was doing.
Although his service record had not survived - although there is an outside chance he was serving after 1920, and hence his papers will be with the MOD - the record of 143961, Frederick Middleton are on Ancestry. These show he enlisted in the RE in January 1916. Middleton's final appointment was also as an Acting Sergeant. So Tillman received his number at the same time. but whether he re-enlisted in January 1916 or transferred into the RE is (again) not known.
The army form on the reverse of his medal card is a request for medals.
Ken
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Thanks Ken
He does appear with sister at the Sumatra road address on the two per year E.Rolls from and including 1919 till 1924 when he married Elizabeth Frett ( a widow) on the marriage cert he is down as 'Clerk in the Admiralty' and living in Brixton, though what that has to do with the price of cheese I don't know !
Anyway shows he didn't reenlist.
Best
John
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Hello John,
I've just happened on a link that may prove useful. It is WWI ORBATS (Order of Battle stats) for segments of the Royal Engineers but I have to quit now, so will leave it with you.
https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/maps/units/10/royal-engineers/1st-london-field-company/ (https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/maps/units/10/royal-engineers/1st-london-field-company/)
Cheers,
Westoe
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Thanks Westoe
That looks really interesting, by this posting am asking Jim & Ken for their opinion as to whether or not our Walter might have been there? Would give me a lot of info if he was.
Not over till 1916? could as you say he might have been training people, secondly due to the fact that Mother was Totally Blind, though ( saying that his sister Rosa Elizabeth was at home)
Fuzzy logic is still pointing me to the fact he would have followed father into the Tower Hamlets Brigade, as to come in that late on seems strange to me that he would have reached Acting Sgt. in such short a time as he was back home on electoral rolls in 1919;
Best
John
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But....there's always a but, isn't there?
IF Walter John had been part of the Tower Hamlets Volunteers emulating his father, he MIGHT have had sufficient training and experience to have been taken into the regular army at a rank above private and he MIGHT have reached the rank of acting-sergeant on the field (seeing as there was a war on) due to the absence of any alive other candidates (battle-field promotion).
That's why finding which unit he was with and reading the war diaries seems important to me.
Cheers,
Westoe
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That's why finding which unit he was with and reading the war diaries seems important to me.
Agree.
Without a service record you don't know which Division/Coy. he was with.
As Ken said his 6 digit no. was in a block reserved for the TF & as he would have joined a local Batt. you would have to say he joined one of those on the previous page & became part of the 1st. (London) Div. & embarked with the 2/1st. (512) but this is just educated guesswork.
If he elected not to serve overseas as a TF he would have gone into one of the Home Service Coys.
When conscription was introduced in Jan. 1916 that option was removed & although young single men were first conscripted as a TF he could easily have been embodied at that time.
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Morning Jim
For the unknowing, in a semi static War, how would the RE be deployed, I ask as I have just come across the fact that before the war Walter was a keen cyclist with Pegasus cycle club, and I had seen on the newspaper articles that in fact Tower Hamlets had as part of the brigade a company of cyclist - wonder would these have been used as messengers?
Do the War dairies still exist ?
Was there a 1915 STAR or only 1914 & 1916 which means no he wasn't over in 1914 but could be anytime after ?
Best
John
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As Ken said his 6 digit no. was in a block reserved for the TF...
My reading of the guide to the TF renumbering is almost the opposite. If he was a member of the TF RE at the time of the renumbering he would have been given a number above 400000. The guide says that he had a number for the regular RE. The man with the next number joined the RE in January 1916..
John...I think I am correct in saying that you have no information pointing to Walter having any military experience before January 1916.
Ken
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Correct Ken
Only that Father was with the T.H. as Bandmaster for nearly twenty years, otherwise could not see why he had not joined up earlier.
Best
John
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My reading of the guide to the TF renumbering is almost the opposite.
Apologies to Ken who is correct. I got the maths wrong.
2 Stars were issued one for service overseas in 1914 commonly called the Mons Star. The other for services overseas in 1915. No more were issued.
Men who served overseas 1916-18 received the British War & Victory Medals, these included men who were recipients of the 14/15 Star still serving.
The above man only received the BW & V Medals so no pre 1916 service overseas.
RE cyclists would have been used as messengers but during the war motor cyclists were preferred. They would have been part of the Signals Coy.
The RE controlled all kinds of construction work usually supervising attached men from the Bde. Batt's. As the war went on the RE became more streamlined with specialist Coys, communication, railways, agriculture, canals & waterways etc. Their core work was trenches, dugouts, gun emplacements & tunnels.
The 1st. (London) Div. (re-numbered 56th. Div. Jan. 1916) RE diaries are on Ancestry. Start date Feb. 1916:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=60779
By Feb. 1916 these are the 2 old 1/London Div. RE Field Coys. that joined the 56th.
512th (2/1st London) Field Company
513th (2/2nd London) Field Company
As an aside 512 took 33 cyclists.
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It is also worth reading this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_War_Medal
The lack of a 1914 Star or 1914-15 Star (which would have taken precedence) would entitle him to the TF(W) medal due to his overseas service. As he does not appear to be entitled to the TF(W) Medal suggests he did not have sufficient TF service.
Ken
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Hello Westoe, Jim and Ken
Summary of FACT and possible Surmise
Fact : Walter's father John Tillman- in 1879 Band-Sergeant Regtl No. 1541 in the Tower Hamlets Volunteer Brigade - Lieut. Colonel J.H.Mapleson, Commanding, was appointed Bandmaster a post which he kept till he resigned on the 9th November 1894 John died in 1895. AT this time his son Walter John was 20Yrs old.
Surmise : Walter might well have joined his Father in the Brigade, in 1893 at the age of 18yrs, Cycling (Messenger) company ?
Fact : Walter John was an experienced Cyclist with the Pegasus Cycling Club, e.g. In 1895 he won the Half mile Bicycle Handicap in1min 25secs at Wembley Park.
Surmise : As on his Medal Card, only the 1916 Medals are showing, he might not have joined the R.E till 1915.
Fact: At that time Walter would be 40 yrs old, with a Mother ( Who by that time was Totally Blind) , he did however have an older sister living at home in Sumatra Road.
note: Mother did go into Hospital where she eventually died in 1923, it was a Mental Hospital and I do not know when she was admitted.
Surmise : 1. He had not joined up before - due to Mother.
2. Due to age and past experience with the T.H.? Walter stayed in U.K. training.
Maybe the fact that he did not enter R.E. till 1916 and was back in UK on electoral rolls in 1919, and also in that short time was acting Sergeant ?
or was he demobbed early due to injury or age, and already back in U.K. before spring electoral roll of 1919
Fact : On electoral rolls 1919 to and including spring 1923, Then married to Elizabeth Frett ( widow) in 1924 At time living in Battersea and working as clerk in the Admiralty.
So possibility I suppose could be the 512, with the cyclist that went over in 1916, otherwise where next to look
Best
John
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Unfortunately without a service record you're not going to find the answers.
If he was invalided out early even after the war ended he would have been given the Silver War Badge which he isn't listed as receiving.
He could have gone overseas anytime after Dec. 1915 as a replacement to any RE Coy.
Even if he went overseas on the last day of the war he still would have qualified for his medals.
Did he have a pre war occupation useful to the RE ?
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Yes Jim
Think it's brick-wall time as R.E. point out that records all lost in bombing by Hitler's demolition mob.
To your last question -No he is down as commercial representative just before the war.
If one day I do get to Winchester, where T.H. have some records, maybe will be able to unravel.
Snippet from 1894 Annual prize giving :
"The Cyclist were very noticeable in their attractive uniform" - Not a good idea !
Thanks all for your help.
Best
John