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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: nestagj on Monday 02 January 17 19:39 GMT (UK)
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Good evening and a Happy New Year
Am helping a cousin with his family tree and we have found a curious occupation for his grandfather and great-grandfather on his grand parents marriage in Porthmadog
The marriage was at Pwllheli in October 1922 at Zion Chapel between a John Richard Jones and a Jennie Jones.
The groom lived in Railway Place and his occupation was shown as a Colliery Timberman his father was also John Jones and he was also a Collier.
The children of the marriage were all born in FFestinog (which I assume means the Porthmadog area) we are currently searching for the birth certificates of the children (in the hope that we do not need to buy them ! ) to see what the father's occupation is; by the mid 30's John Richard was a Dairy Farmer in the Porthmadog area and can easily be found on the 1939 census. This I believe may have come from the wife's father occupation link as he was a Dairy Man.
Can't find any decent possibles in the 1911 but that's a long time before the marriage. The plan is to get to Caernarfon when I can (will be February because of work commitments) and go through the electoral registers to see what I can find in Railway Terrace around 1922. John Richard was born in 1895 and we believe he had one sister called Mary who married someone called James Birney. My cousin's Mum used to say that her dad came from Meirionnydd.
We believe we have tracked some the wife's family - with a bit of help from Emyrborth - Thanks Emyr. But the paternal side is harder .......grrr Jones'
My question is has anyone seen this occupation in this area before......I never have. I suppose they could have returned to the area because of the 1921 strike and lack of work in the valleys - hmm. The thoughts of much more experienced root chatters would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for reading this far - I look forward to hearing your ideas
Nesta
My question is has
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There is a John Richard Jones of 10 Railway Terrace in the 6th RWF casualty lists for Gallipoli 1915 (suffered Dysentery). His number was 1020 (later 265184). Will expand if this wasn't known.
According to this newspaper list there was a William Jones and a Robert Jones at No 10 as well
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3412818/3412821/18/
This article puts a Thomas George to the address in 1910 (Petty Sessions, column 1)
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3411912/3411919/44/
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So, in the 1911/1901 census going with the yearbirth 1895 and names known i.e Father = John, brothers William and Robert, sister Mary and a mother from Meirionydd I suggest this family in the 1911 at Penmorfa
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j6x/
who are the ones in the 1901 at 12 Madoc Street, Port
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j6y/
The only problem is that there is no Robert but his name so far has only come up in that newspaper lis and there might be an address typo there?
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Gwil - fantastic !
No didn't know about the casualty list.
At work now so haven't the time to look closely
Thank you very much
Nesta
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Hi Nesta. Seeing your topic reminded me of my Nain's uncle. He was from Y Ffor and after the failure of a number of his businesses by 1911 he was working in the coalmines around Pontypridd while his wife took the children and managed a hotel in Cwm-y-Glo. Pontypridd was expanding at a great pace at the time and drawing workers from around the country and wondered if John Richard Jones was one of these.
In the 1911 Census for Pontypridd there is a John Richard Jones aged 17 Coal Miner Hewer born in Merioneth, Abergynolwyn. He is boarding at 20 Ceridwen, St Mardy, Glamorgan. with Thomas James Evans Colliery Fireman and his family.
Is this a possibility?
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Thank you both for your input - yes Glynm - I did wonder whether the menfolk were working in South Wales leaving the women to keep the home fires burning....not sure about the 1911 entry in South Wales need to do further research.......
Gwil - that family is a distinct possibility ; I plan to head over to Caernarfon and look at the electoral rolls to see what I can find but unfortunately can't do so for a few weeks.
Could you give me some more information about the Casualty list please.
Thank you again
Nesta
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There is a John Richard Jones of 10 Railway Terrace in the 6th RWF casualty lists for Gallipoli 1915 (suffered Dysentery). His number was 1020 (later 265184). Will expand if this wasn't known.
Gwil - my cousin recalls that his mother used to talk about her father being at Gallipoli - so this family starts to seem even more of a possibility.
Any suggestions how I can confirm this ?
Nesta
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Nesta
You have John Richard Jones, Railway Place getting married in Oct 1922. The list provides military info on John Richard Jones, 10 Railway Place. Newspaper articles show the name to the address. Ideally your cousin would clinch it by identifying No 10 from family lore or on a document?
The 6th Bn Royal Welsh Fusiliers published a list of its 1st line men (i.e 1st 6th Bn) that were killed/died of wounds/died/suffered disease & illness etc during the Gallipoli campaign up to 31st October 1915. The first three categories were also officially published in the 'national lists' in the Times and locally in local/regional papers but the disease/illness etc were not. The 6th Bn publication also provided a full address for most of those on it (the 'national' one did not) which makes it a handy list, given that many personal records were destroyed, in identifing men i.e military identity to name/address.
In terms of this particular query of yours all you gain from that list is what I have provided i.e Pte 1020 John Richard Jones, 10 Railway Place, Portmadoc suffered from dysentery. The list can be found in the RWF Archives now held at Wrexham County Archives and there is a copy at the library at Bangor Uni.
His personal papers do not seem to have survived but a pen picture of his war can be built up from material such as his medal card/rolls, casualty lists (he was wounded in 1917), newspaper clips etc and a working knowledge of RWF WW1. I will compile one if you wish.
Turning to the potential family in the 1901/1911. They do look a good fit don't they but I agree that you would want to be absolutely sure.
Accepting this is the family then the Robert Jones in the linked newspaper clip is a red herring. The 1911 shows they had 4 children and they are all named as Lewis, John Richard, William Arthur and Mary (last two same age- twins maybe, any family lore of that i.e your cousins parent had uncle/auntie who were twins?) No Robert. Looking at the clip where he is placed at no 10 I see that the list names John Richard Jones and William Jones at 10 Railway Place then William Jones 10 Church Street then Robert Jones, 10 Railway Place thus suggesting a typo i.e Railway instead of Church for Robert Jones.
Another bit of info that may jog memories/link into family lore:
Lewis Jones in the 1911 family is shown as a Grocer. Search for Lewis Jones and his year birth you'll also see a Lewis Jones same age, birthplace and occupation as a lodger at 25 Madoc Street, Portmadoc. It's not unheard of for someone to have more than one entry in the census.
The latter Lewis Jones looks to have military papers under his 265087 number. Brief summing up of his service is that he was a pre war Terittorial (6th Bn) enlisting as 815 in 1910. He went to Gallipoli and also suffered dysentery*** On recovery he has remained in the UK. Unfortunately his papers are not complete and don't give next of kin on enlistment etc. One form though does give a next of kin during wartime as wife, Lena Jones with an address of Queen(?) House, Church Stretton but a discharge address of The Stores, Portmadoc. I don't know whether this is 25 Madoc Street though or a different 'store'. They might be two different Lewis Jones i.e the 1991 Penmorfa one and the 1911 Portmadoc grocer but all the matching stuff is worth bringing to you attention plus your cousin might have familiy lore of an Uncle Lewis/Auntie Lena who ran a 'Store'.
[*** he is on that list but frustratingly at 3 Railway Place, the list does have some errors though. There is a Lewis Jones in the 1911 at No 12 but he is born 1877 and a Signal Fitter)
A structured search of the newspapers (esp wartime) using variants of the names and the addresses known might provide a further piece of you jigsaw. I find quite often that initials only are used for the christian names so 'J R Jones' etc are worth considering as search terms.
Lastly, I have just looked for a family tree on Ancestry. There are at least two for what appears to be the Penmorfa family that may be worth exploring with their authors (couple of discrepancies)
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=pubmembertrees&gss=sfs28_ms_r_db&new=1&rank=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsfn=john%20richard&gsfn_x=1&gsln=jones&gsln_x=1&msbdy=1895&msbdy_x=1&msbdp=1&gskw=port*&gskw_x=1&MSAV=2&uidh=a63
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Gwil - fantastic
There is one surviving aunt - and we have a list of questions for her ! I found Lewis' marriage to a Selina Jones and they are both on the 1939 register.
Gut feeling is that it is the right family....I will have a look at those ancestry trees later on.
If you do not mind - I'm sure my cousins would love to see information about his war service......
Many thanks
Nesta
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Should also confirm that the marriage for John Richard states 10 Railway Place.
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There's a reference here - http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3460254/3460259/33/ - to a letter in 1915 from Pte J R Jones of the 1-6th RWF regarding his time in the Dardenelles and move to Malta to convalesce from illness. this was to his mother Catherine Jones of Tabernacle St, Ebenezer (context suggests this is in Caernarfon area), so may be another man with the same initials
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Mabel
I can confirm he was a different man namely John Rowland Jones 1909 later 265607.
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While a large number of North/Mid Wales men and families moved to the South Wales coalfields around beginning of 20th century, quite a few also 'commuted' leaving families at home and going South for a few weeks and returning frequently. At least three coal miners are recorded in Pennal on the 1901 census, including my great grandfather. Two of his sons later moved to South Wales permanently.
Some months ago there was a similar post on Cardiganshire site with someone from Borth area recorded as a coal miner in 1901 or 1911.
The reference to Maerdy is interesting. This village in Rhondda Fach seemed to be a magnet for Merionethshire men. A number of Dolgellau families migrated there with some men 'commuting' fairly regularly.
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The reference to Maerdy is interesting. This village in Rhondda Fach seemed to be a magnet for Merionethshire men. A number of Dolgellau families migrated there with some men 'commuting' fairly regularly.
Chwiliwr - where did you get the reference to Maerdy - have I missed something ?
Thanks
Nesta
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Hi Nesta
I think the reference to Maerdy is from my post. I had literally copied the name St Mardy from the Census return. It was the colloquial English name for the village/parish and is more commonly known in Welsh as Maerdy.
I concur with Chwiliwr about the commuting back and forth from South Wales to North Wales. My Taid's sister from Llanaelhaearn married a chap from Bryngroes but by 1891 had moved to Pontypridd. In the following Census's the daughters had returned to visit their Grandparents in Llanaelhaearn or to attend their Aunties wedding. Eventually they returned to live and marry in Llanaelhaearn.
Glyn
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Thanks Glynm
Yes I also agree with the commuting theory...my Blaenau Ffestiniog and Gardolbenmaen families did the same to and fro from South Wales and back I can track them in the censuses and then in living memory from my mum and her siblings. One set of grandparents ended up back in Garn, and one set of G Grand parents in Bala but there were aunts and uncles who remained in South Wales and others who returned to Blaenau.
Nesta