RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: spades on Tuesday 03 January 17 03:08 GMT (UK)
-
Hi everyone, and Happy New Year.
I would like help identifying the Sgt. TYLER who appeared in a c’1918 British Pathé film arriving home to his family in Lambeth, London.
The family member who sent me the link believes that this man might be an ancestor and that the address might be in Ethelred Street, although the film provides no clues other than ‘Lambeth’ and ‘Sergeant TYLER’.
The film does provide a close-up of Sgt. TYLER with cap-badge so I hope someone might be able to identify his regiment. And there is an emblem above his sergeant’s stripes that might be a battle or company badge.
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/lambeth-welcomes-sergeant-tyler
Any suggestions gratefully received.
ADDENDUM: It is possible to view the film as stills, and then zoom them, and I now wonder if the emblem above his stripes might be for a colour-sergeant or staff-sergeant.
Spades
-
Hi, I'm on my phone at the moment but it looks to be the Middlesex Regiment.
(Duke of Cambridge's own)?
Frank.
-
Hi Frank, thanks very much!
That's a very good start.
Spades
-
I'm sure someone will progress the search by the time I can get to my laptop, if not then I will carry on when I return home :)
Frank
-
I don't know if this helps but the pub at the beginning is called the 'George' at 169, it seems to be part of the Lambeth Walk.
Great video!
Cas
-
The "George" 169 Lambeth Walk.
http://www.closedpubs.co.uk/london/se11_kennington.html
Nice one Cas ;)
Frank.
-
https://holdinganapple.wordpress.com/2010/03/31/lambeth-walk-pub-crawl/
On this link if you go to the comments at the bottom, someone has written 'George' was in the part of demolished Ethelred.
Cas
-
An Albert Walter Tyler was living at 67 Ethelred street Lambeth in the census before the war.
Nothing obvious in the service records (yet!). Not sure about Middlesex Regiment though, there is no scroll beneath the circular bit (technical expression) on his badge.
Also don't think the badge above his stripes is a S Sgts crown.
maxD
-
................................................. Not sure about Middlesex Regiment though, there is no scroll beneath the circular bit (technical expression) on his badge.........................
maxD
That was my original thought, but wondered if it was the way the "still" was showing it :-\
Frank.
-
The George was on the corner of Lambeth Walk and Bolwell Street.
-
It looks to me like the opening frames are in Lambeth Walk itself (a shopping street), and then it suddenly switches to a residential side street. It could perhaps be Ethelred Street, Wake St, or Lollard Street. They have walked past Bolwell Street.
-
An Albert Walter Tyler was living at 67 Ethelred street Lambeth in the census before the war..............................................................
maxD
Hi, the above Albert Walter Tyler would have been 46 years old in 1918, the sergeant in the film looks to be in his mid 40's to me, his occupation was " Motor Cab Driver", the search continues......
Frank.
-
Could he be WO/2 Mddx. Regt. ?
If so there's a possible contender.
L/2600 Edwin C Tyler 4/Mddx.
14 Star, BW & V also Mentioned in despatches following Mons which may account for the hero's welcome.
-
Could he be WO/2 Mddx. Regt. ?
If so there's a possible contender.
L/2600 Edwin C Tyler 4/Mddx.
14 Star, BW & V also Mentioned in despatches following Mons which may account for the hero's welcome.
I like that idea, I'm still of the mind that it's The Middlesex Regiment cap badge.
Frank.
-
Another possible is S. Lancs. Regt.
-
Another possible is S. Lancs. Regt.
:o :o :o
:-[
Frank.
-
The no. of the above man gives an attestation date of 1909.
-
Hi everyone,
Thanks very much for all the information and ideas.
We do have a 'Albert Walter TYLER' in our family ;D
Frank, as quoted from your post above, did you mean that Albert Walter TYLER's occupation before the war was Motor Cab Driver? Does this eliminate him from being Sergeant TYLER?
Albert Walter Tyler would have been 46 years old in 1918, the sergeant in the film looks to be in his mid 40's to me, his occupation was " Motor Cab Driver"...
I don't have a 'Edwin C. TYLER' in the family tree.
Spades
-
We do have a 'Albert Walter TYLER' in our family ;D
Frank, as quoted from your post above, did you mean that Albert Walter TYLER's occupation before the war was Motor Cab Driver? Does this eliminate him from being Sergeant TYLER?
Albert Walter Tyler would have been 46 years old in 1918, the sergeant in the film looks to be in his mid 40's to me, his occupation was " Motor Cab Driver"...
Spades
Hi, just saw this reply while logging off ;D ;D ;D
No, I would not think it would eliminate him :)
Frank.
-
Talking to family it appears that our Albert Walter TYLER was never in the Army. He was described as a very small man, and had he served in the Great War this would have been remembered in the family.
So this seems to lead us back to L/2600 Edwin C TYLER of 4/Mddx.
Can we find out anything else about him?
And could someone please explain the meaning of "14 Star, BW & V...".
Spades
-
And could someone please explain the meaning of "14 Star, BW & V...".
Spades
They are the medals awarded to him. http://www.greatwar.co.uk/medals/ww1-campaign-medals.htm
-
Thanks, Nanny Jan :)
Spades
-
L/12600 WO 2 Edwin C Tyler (plain Edwin Tyler on his MIC) served on the Army Physical Training Staff after the war per the medal card. The Army Lists show that he continued to serve in the APTS through to the 1940's and was commissioned in 1940.
There is a Devon newspaper report about him (Western Morning News 28 August 1925) which records that he was based in Devonport before and after the war, had many friends there, and was about to leave for Aldershot, having been promoted.
-
Hmm looks like Edwin was probably Edwin Charles Tyler, born Bedminster 1892. Married Ada E Smith in Devonport 1915, died in Margate 1966.
-
So how confident can we be that Charles Edwin TYLER is the man in the film?
Spades
-
So how confident can we be that Charles Edwin TYLER is the man in the film?
Not confident at all!
-
So how confident can we be that Charles Edwin TYLER is the man in the film?
Spades
I think you have transposed the forenames. Agree with ShaunJ.
Not at all - Edwin Charles Tyler of Bedminster appears to have no Lambeth connection. There is only a MIC card for Edwin C Taylor of the Middx then APT staff hence no evidence connecting him to Lambeth.
My feeling is that, as with so many others, it would only be the service record which would resolve this but as far as I can see, none of the few service records that still survive for Tylers have a Lambeth connection.
That said, perhaps the home-coming also got a write up in a newspaper local to Lambeth? I find nothing in the FindMyPast newspapers but there are other avenues.
maxD
-
Just taking a closer look at the cap badge, the upright piece in the top half is offset to the left. It looks very much like the East Lancs (http://www.penmon.org/userimages/bi-eastlancsbadge.jpg) regiment
-
Just taking a closer look at the cap badge, the upright piece in the top half is offset to the left. It looks very much like the East Lancs (http://www.penmon.org/userimages/bi-eastlancsbadge.jpg) regiment
Nice one :)
Frank.
-
Better! The sphinx is easy to spot in your close up. There is a MIC for a 9705 Sjt William Tyler of the East Lancs. No further record though (yet!). Getting closer perhaps?
maxD
Later - 1st Battalion, joined (service numbers) 1907/1908 - has the look of a regular or is that too fanciful?
-
Looks good.
9705 gives an attestation date of Jan. 1908.
-
It looks like he's in the citations for the D.C.M, hence the hero's welcome?.
Frank.
-
In a nutshell, if he's our man:
He was acting corporal at the time and used a machine gun while under heavy shell fire which seriously affected his eyes at the time.
It's on Ancestry.
Frank
-
The citation is in the Gazette in March 1916.
9705 Acting Corporal W. Tyler, 1st Battalion, East Lancashire Regiment.
"For conspicuous gallantry; he mounted his machine gun under heavy fire and opened on the enemy. While doing so a shell burst near him, seriously affecting his eyes, but he stuck to his work and fired with good effect throughout the action."
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29503/supplement/2729/data.pdf
Our man is certainly wearing a medal in the opening frames of the film
-
I think the one question mark is why would a man from London join the E.Lancs. as a pre war regular.
One answer would be that the family moved to London after he joined but still an anomaly. That aside he looks the most likely candidate.
It's a nice thought that every man received this kind of welcome but unfortunately that wasn't the case so this event was regarded as something special. A DCM would fall into that category.
-
Post deleted, same as shaunJ post.
Frank.
Waiting in anticipation for "Spades" I wonder if he was the relative in the opening post?
-
Bingo - maybe.
Census before the war, 1st Bn East Lancs Regiment in barracks in Woking. Private William Tyler age 21 born Lambeth. Ta dah!
1901 William Tyler age 11 Asa Place Lambeth, mother Mary Ann living 10 years later Finsbury Park.
What say you?
maxD
-
I think that's cracked it MaxD.
-
I'm with Jim1, it gets my vote as well MaxD :)
Frank
-
It's interesting to see just how many of the soldiers in the pre-war 1st East Lancs were born in the South East of England. Quite a lot.
-
mother Mary Ann living 10 years later Finsbury Park
I think the family is at 18 Topaz Street, Lambeth, not Finsbury Park. Mary Ann was still there in 1913 per the voters list.
Topaz Street was a short street running between Lollard Street and Fitzalan Street, both of which were on the East side of Lambeth Walk.
http://mapco.net/bart1908/bart35.htm
So there is a good probability that the second sequence in the Pathe film is set in Topaz Street.
-
1915 she's at 32 Wake St. ( off Ethelred St. )
1919 there's a William Tyler at 32 Wake St.
Wake St. 1938 according to the people that knew it.
http://www.musgroves.co.uk/wake%20street%20lambeth.htm
-
Yes ShaunJ not only does the location add up but I got the wrong Mary Ann Tyler! (Can't be right all the time :)
Pretty much clinches it. Can't wait to hear from Spades re the relative's thoughts. Mother Mary Ann, daughter Martha and son John.
maxD
-
Jim1 spotted the move to 32 Wake Street by 1915 - so that becomes the likely location for the second sequence.
There's a photo of Wake Street here (http://www.musgroves.co.uk/wake%20street%20lambeth.htm) from 1938 - viewed from the Lambeth Walk end (it ran parallel with Ethelred Street before joining it). It looks right
-
For once I've beat you to it. Put the link up earlier.
The photo was taken from the Lambeth Rd. end & I reckon he lived about where the car is about 4 houses up from the school.
-
I absolutely love it!!
Frank.
-
I.Ding the cap badge did it.
-
Didn't we do well!
maxD
-
Now who kept shouting about the Middlesex Regiment cap badge :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
Frank.
-
It keeps us on our toes!
maxD :)
-
Now who kept shouting about the Middlesex Regiment cap badge
Admit to nothing, deny everything.. it's the army way.
-
Morning Team,
Well, that was a lot to read just before heading off to work. ;D ;D 8)
Excellent detective work all round. So he was William TYLER of the 1st Battalion, East Lancs. Regiment, one of the Old Contemptables.
But when did he make Sergreant? That would be further confirmation.
Many thanks. I have to admit I wasn't optimistic that he would be identified.
Spades
-
Still a Pte. when he got his 14 Star (1914) so sometime after that.
You would need his service record unfortunately.
-
He was a acting corporal when he was in the London Gazette in March 1916, though the action may have been a couple of months earlier, so not a sergeant then.
Frank.
-
In fact it was several months earlier. 6/7/15 at this time still a Pte.
C.O. got his number wrong but we can excuse him that.
-
Hi,
Can't wait to hear from Spades re the relative's thoughts. Mother Mary Ann, daughter Martha and son John.
Sorry, we don't have these names in the family.
I like William TYLER.
Spades
-
Then should we expect a new thread looking for a soldier called Tyler with names that do belong??
maxD
-
Blimey, do you want one? :o
Spades
-
Then should we expect a new thread looking for a soldier called Tyler with names that do belong??
maxD
Blimey, do you want one? :o
Spades
Can't see a problem with that ;) ...................................................................
Back later to check :)
Frank.
-
Guess those that have had input to thread would like to know who Sgt Tyler in Lambeth 1914-1918 was.
Don't have any military knowledge, but love a mystery solved :)
Cas
-
Cas
I think we are pretty clear that the man in the film is Sgt William Tyler of the East Lancs. However, he doesn't appear to belong to Spade's family so presumably there is another soldier Tyler with family connection to Lambeth. If Spade would like the bloodhounds set on his trail then we need to know who the relatives are and any other detail that might help.
There is still a puzzle to be solved and, like you, love to see it solved!
maxD
-
Or maybe look for William Tyler's ancestors & inform them we've identified him in the film....or maybe not.
-
Thank you Max D for explaining the Sgt Tyler has been found re film..not followed thread to a tee as been working :(
Jim1 you have a point in FH, sure there is family out there.
Regards to all
Cas
-
Just for the sake of recording the research, I reckon Sgt William Tyler's parents were William Tyler, general dealer, and Mary Ann Lyons, both born Lambeth circa 1856. They were married at the Emmanuel Church in Lambeth in 1885. William senior is a patient in the Lambeth Infirmary in the 1901 census.
There is a private tree on Ancestry that seems to tally.
-
Thanks ShaunJ, MaxD, Cas, Jess5athome, Nanny Jan and Jim1 for all the advice, information and photographic interpretation.
My main purpose here was to positively Sgt. TYLER, as I often watch period documentary films and wonder who the subjects were and how they lived their lives, and I feel that has been achieved. I had doubts that he was connected to (my wife's) family and that has been confirmed.
Thanks again.
Spades
-
I know it has been a couple of years since this post was first put on Rootschat, but I wanted to let people know that the family of Sergeant Tyler have been found, and his grandson and other grandchildren are over the moon to be able to see this footage. My cousin shared this post with me earlier last week, we connect to Sergeant Tyler's father, William Tyler born 1856, son of George Peter Tyler and Mary Ann Luttman, via their son Peter Tyler. I was reading the comments in the posts and thought, I know these names - I'd looked at them in December 2018 when my friend, the grandson of Sergeant William Tyler and I joked about my interest in family genealogy, only to discover that we were connected via my 3rd Gt Aunt, the wife of his 2nd gt Uncle! So imagine my surprise to recognise the names. I went back to my research tree, and yes - there they were! So I sent over the Pathe film and he, and his family are absolutely delighted to be able to see their family members, and we think one of ours might also be in the film as well - the lady stood on the step with a flat cap, we think, might be our 3rd Gt Aunt - Martha Tyler nee GEE! Thanks again Rootchat members for all your hard work on this one. It has paid of.
-
Brilliant news, :) ..........................................
Frank.
-
That is fabulous. Thanks for letting us know Jac. :)
I have just looked at the excellent footage again.
-
For my part, I found the Sgt Tyler hunt one of the most enjoyable threads I have taken part in and am
delighted to hear about the splendid outcome for so many families! That is why I do this!
Jackie - you might like to let folk know what your connection was with his grandson, they'll love it :)
MaxD
-
I remember this one as well a good collective effort.
-
My name is Chris Twining and Sgt Tyler was my great grandfather. His daughter Kathleen (Kathy) married my grandfather Ernest Twining and they lived in Paddington until their death in 2016 and 2021!