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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: johnP-bedford on Friday 06 January 17 14:47 GMT (UK)
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Hello, I have a John Mantel/l (or Mantle) born 1816 Bedford & moved to Newport Pagnell with family before 1871. On 1881 census he is in Newport Pagnell, 'Artist in Hair', widower, age 66; wife Sarah had died December qtr 1880 age 63. Last sighting is him listed on the 1885 Electoral Roll at North Square, Shrubbery Cottage, Newport Pagnell. I've not found a death index for him or a sighting on the 1891 census. There is a marriage index in Sept 1885 in Newport Pagnell RD of John Mantell to Elizabeth Froggatt, as I've discounted the other 2 names.
Today I found this snippet from local newspaper archive; from Beds Times 20th September 1946;
From Bedfordian's Diary – More memories of John Mantel. This tale was told. “After his wife, a gentle, lady-like person, died (in 1880), things did not go well for him. He married again (1885), and eventually emigrated at an advanced age to Australia, where he died".
So I'm now looking for passenger lists, emigration & immigration records to find out where they went. I've so far found a Mr & Mrs Mantell on the ship Himalaya that left London 8 Nov 1894 & arrived Sydney 4 Dec 1894, but there are no ages, initials/first names, UK address ... so not sure it's them.
Any help from Australian records would be welcome.
Thanks John
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Do you know his parents' names?
This article from 1890...
"The following is the medical superintendent's report of the state of the Benevolent Asylum, Dunwich, for the week ending 29th March........The death during the week was that of John Mantell, aged 81, a native of Bedford, England."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3516665/98349
Queensland BDMs are free to search online:
https://www.qld.gov.au/law/births-deaths-marriages-and-divorces/family-history-research/
The parents of that man are named as Richard MANTELL and Sarah WOODROFFE
Debra :)
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Hi Debra, thanks for that, yes those were his parents, so he died in March 1890, thus it was not them on the Himalaya in 1894. I don't know parents of his wife Elizabeth and I've not found a likely death for her.
Cheers John
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Hi John
Thought I'd add this entry..
Mr Mantell arrived Sydney 24 August 1886 on Sulley transcribed as Sutlej! also Mrs Mantell. Leaving from London. Date is transcribed as 19 but has 24 on page.
Possible..
Tazzie
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Hi there,
At the free to search website linked below, the ship's name is transcribed as Lutley.
http://marinersandships.com.au/1886/08/098lut.htm
Scroll down and then click on the scanned images of the passenger and crew lists. Listed there is a couple, a Mr & Mrs MANTELL for Sydney. NO Initials.
JM
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13633088 10 August 1886
RMS Sutlej :)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13633773 20 August 1886
Arrival to Sydney
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13633829 20 August 1886
7 from London in Second Saloon.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:P%26O_steamship_SS_Sutlej,_pre_1901_(3732034774).jpg
JM
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You can see an example of the Dunwich admission register here (click on the first image):
http://ancestor-envy.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/the-elder-seal.html
There is quite a lot of personal information there. Queensland Archives will not do research for you, but as there is not extensive research involved it is worth contacting them with your enquiry to ask if they can locate and quote you the cost of obtaining a copy of the register page for John MANTEL(L). Make sure you give them all the info you have.
http://www.archives.qld.gov.au/Researchers/Runcorn/Pages/Enquiries.aspx
Copying costs are quite good.
http://www.archives.qld.gov.au/Researchers/Runcorn/Pages/CopyingCharges.aspx
Debra :)
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John,
If you would like this copied I can do this for you.
(Debra, if you know your way around the Qld Archives website can you provide a link to the relevant document/s to aid with the search - as I seldom use the site I tend to get bit lost in it. If not I can ask the archivist for help. :) )
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You can apply to the Queensland BMD for a historical image which is a scanned copies of the life event records held in our registers. These images are not certified by the Registrar-General and cannot be used for official purposes. Cost is $AU20.70 and you download it direct.
https://www.qld.gov.au/law/births-deaths-marriages-and-divorces/family-history-research/
Australian death registrations are usually very informative, with much better genealogical information than English/Welsh ones. Of course, the extent and validity of the information on record depends on the informant's knowledge (or truthfulness!) Although John was at the Benevolent Asylum, someone knew enough about an 81 year-old man to know his parents' names and his birthplace so there may be other good information also.
This site lists what you should find on BMD registrations in the various states:
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
Looks as though the Dunwich register may have just as good information.
Judith
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Thank you Judith/Ruskie/Debra/JM & Tazzie for all this info....
So possibly my John Mantell & wife were the Mr & Mrs Mantell that arrived Sydney from London on 24 Aug 1886 on the ship SUTLEJ. I've sent a research request form to Queensland Archives on how to glean more info on the late JM who died at the Benevolent Asylum, Dunwich. I await a response, but in the meantime anything else you guys can provide me would be welcome.
I've found passenger info for a George Mantell age 33 & wife Sarah 37, plus Ada 13, Lewis 11 & Gertrude 6 arrived Brisbane on 1 June 1887 on the ship Waroonga. He was a carpenter & they came from Bedfordshire. Possibly this is John Mantell's son George born 1853 Bedford. In 1861 George age 8 was home with parents & siblings. In 1871 he was age 20 born Bedford, living & working as a hairdresser in Skipton Yorkshire. On 11/3/1872 he married a Sarah Ann Bunnett in Bradford Yorks. The marriage certificate has him aged 21 a hairdresser; his father was John Mantell, hairdresser.
Via Trove - from Australian Star newspaper of 28/4/1892 a marriage on Apr 23rd 1892 at St Barnabas Chirch, George St west (Sydney?) of Charles Victor Wilson, 3rd son of Edward Wilson, of Beckenham Kent to Ada Christiana Mantell, eldest daughter of George Mantell of New Zealand.
Cheers John
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It looks like George and Sarah emigrated to New Zealand between 1873 and 1875, returned to England, then came to Australia.
The GRO indexes show Ada Christina's birth in 1873 Skipton district (mother's maiden surname BUNNETT), then Louis Statford (1875) and Gertrude Violet Rosetta (1880) both registered NZ.
https://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search
Here they are returning to the UK
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ST18810312.2.3.2?query=george%20mantel
There are other articles where George is mentioned, search with both MANTEL and MANTELL. He may have died in 1896.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers
Debra :)
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Their arrival into NZ in 1874
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-696S-X5S
Debra :)
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Then after the trip to QLD, they seem to return to NZ.
Perhaps they had visited the ageing father.
Members of the family show on NZ electoral Rolls.
1905/1906
Address, 23 Filleul Street, Otago
MANTELL,Elizabeth. Married.
MANTELL, Gertrude Violet Rosetta. Spinster
MANTELL, Louis Watford. Working jeweller.
1911
Address, 312 Rattray Street. Otago.
MANTELL, Louis. Jeweller.
Sue
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Thanks Sue & Debra for that further information..
I did find the UK birth of Ada Christiana Mantell in Mar 1873 in Skipton RD, but I could not find births of Lewis/Louis 1876 or Gertrude 1881; nor could I find them on the England 1881 census. That's because parents & Ada sailed to Otago, NZ in 1874 on the 'Jessie Readman'
From the NZ marriages I've found an entry for Gertrude Violet Rosetta Mantell to Percival Walter Stabb in 1909. I've also found a marriage for Louis Watford Mantell to Elizabeth Margaret Dickson in 1903. Plus the death of Elizabeth Margaret Mantell in 1921 aged 43.
From the NZ newspaper archive, from Evening Star of July 1879 I've found mention of George Mantell, hairdresser of Princes Street; him being a witness regarding the Atheneum Fire, Dunedin.
From the Otago Witness, there's the death 10 Nov 1909 of Sarah Ann, wife of the late George Mantell in her 68th year, at residence of her son at 312 Rattray Street. You've mentioned the possible death of George Mantell as per the Funeral Notice of 26 Apr 1896.
Cheers John
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I'm now interested in the married Mrs Elizabeth Mantell living with Gertrude & Louis in 1905/6. If she was the wife/widow of John Mantell who died 1890 would it have said widow rather than married.
Cheers John
Elizabeth was probably the mother of Louis Watford's daughter.
Louis made a will in 1916 and bequeathed his all to his daughter.
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1865481
This is her birth in NZ
1908/15467 MANTELL Radium Laura
Parents Elizabeth Margaret & Louis Watford
Sue
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Sue, I've just found that Elizabeth was Louis's wife, he married Elizabeth Margaret Dickson in 1903
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Thanks to Queensland Archives: Dunwich Benevolent Asylum record for John Mantell, admitted 14 Nov 1887 at age 78 which names his parents & his children & says he married in Bedford age 22, but doesn't say he married again in 1885 or name that 2nd wife Elizabeth.
He came to Brisbane by ship 'Bulimba' from London left 9/9/1885 & arrived 5 Nov 1885 & started business in George Street. Can anyone find him on passenger lists please.
Thanks
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Oh, interesting information ;D
So John married Elizabeth between June and September 1885 in England and embarked for Australia in September with or without Elizabeth
His family came in June 1887 and he was admitted November 1887.
He died there in 1890
Wonder if son George furnished the admittance record information and chose to omit the marriage to Elizabeth.
Sue
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Aha!!
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/185523376
March 1889
FOR SALE, First-class Hairdressing BUSINESS (ladies' and Gentlemen's) ; stock,
fixtures, gas-fittings, &c a bargain ; owner leaving for England.
Apply, Mantell and Co., 119 George street.
ADDING
This advertisement. 5th Jan 1889.
To Hairdressers. Wanted a good steady young man. Apply Mantell, George Street.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/185516717
Sue
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Link to passenger list for the Bulimba, left London, 9 September 1885, arr Brisbane 5 November 1885.
http://www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/Image/DigitalImageDisplay.aspx?ImageId=37970#page=1&view=Fit&ispdf=true
I am not seeing any MANTEL (or any variation) on this list.
Judith
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The parents of that man are Richard MANTELL and Sarah WOODROFFE
Debra :)
I do not see the name either Judith
But, clutching at straws here ::) ::)
I do see a James WOODROFFE, aged 60.
ADDING Steerage, page 9
Was he "on the run" :P
Sue
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Thanks for that Sue & Judith, its odd that he's not on the passenger list of the Bulimba, or anything like it. There's no-one who's a hairdresser or comes from Beds/Bucks, or anyone aged around 70, in fact the James Woodroffe at age 60 is the oldest but who is he. John Mantel did have a brother James Woodroffe Mantel born 1807 but I've not researched what happened to him.
As to the adverts, strange that Mantell is selling a hairdressers business in George Street, Brisbane in Mar 1889 while he is in the Dunwich Asylum from Nov 1887. He states in his admission record 'I have no property, no cash and I believe my son pays for my maintenance in Dunwich Asylum'. There are 3 notes that says he was absent on leave from 12th to 20th Jan 1888, from 21st to 28th Aug 1888 & from 17th to 24th Dec 1889.
Cheers John
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He states in his admission record 'I have no property, no cash and I believe my son pays for my maintenance in Dunwich Asylum'. There are 3 notes that says he was absent on leave from 12th to 20th Jan 1888, from 21st to 28th Aug 1888 & from 17th to 24th Dec 1889.
Cheers John
Hi John,
You have the advantage of be able to see the record, so to that extent, the helpers are in the dark a little.
Thanks for that Sue & Judith, its odd that he's not on the passenger list of the Bulimba, or anything like it. There's no-one who's a hairdresser or comes from Beds/Bucks, or anyone aged around 70, in fact the James Woodroffe at age 60 is the oldest but who is he. John Mantel did have a brother James Woodroffe Mantel born 1807 but I've not researched what happened to him.
Cheers John
I should have made my post clearer. Sorry.
I am speculating he used the name WOODROFFE as an alias on the shipping list in order to evade detection by .....??
We have no evidence that
Elizabeth came to Australia
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Would it be possible for you to transcribe the Asylum admission record as it seems to have been lodged by John himself, and there may be other clues.
Sue, that's a brilliant find on the shipping list. I think James WOODROFFE is very likely to be John MANTELL.
My reasoning:
- As passports were not used it would be easy to travel using any name at all.
WOODROFFE's age is given as 60 when John MANTELL was actually 70; shipping records depend on the truthfulness of the passenger, and the accuracy of the bureaucracy of the shipping co.
No occupation or birthplace information is recorded - so at least there is no contradictory information.
Obvious connection to a family name.
WOODROFFE travelled steerage which meant that he was a paying passenger (i.e. he was not an assisted/bounty immigrant).
John MANTELL gives very specific information re his arrival in Brisbane in his admission papers. It seems unlikely that he would know the dates of the passage of the Bulimba two years after the event unless he had travelled on that voyage.
My thoughts are that John left England for whatever reason quickly after his marriage to Elizabeth FROGGATT using an alias. It would be interesting to know why. ::) Interesting to know more about Elizabeth also but with no identifying information other than her name....................... You don't have the marriage cert by any chance? Too many Elizabeths - Froggatt or Mantell to find her before or after the marriage.
If this supposition is correct then it explains why he did not mention the marriage to Elizabeth.
As for selling his Brisbane hairdressing business while he was in the Asylum, John states that he has no property and that he thinks his son is paying for his maintenance. I would suspect that George or a manager may have been running the business. The advertisement for the sale is only of the actual business, not a real estate property - although one might argue that fixtures and fittings could be considered property.
Was there an occupation listed for John in the 1885 Newport Pagnell electoral roll? Was there any mention of Elizabeth on that roll?
Judith
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Hi Judith, I've attached the PDF file for the entry I received from Queensland Archives...
As you see it lists his children & approx ages, their years of birth are as follows:- Walter 1841, Sarah 1843, John 1845, Catherine 1847, Elizabeth 1850, George 1853, Gertrude 1857 & Agnes 1859. He also had daughter Laura 1855 but she's not there, haven't found yet when she died? He married Sarah Watford in Bedford in 1838, she died 1880. I haven't yet got the 1885 marriage certificate of him to 2nd wife Elizabeth Froggatt, its on its way. Don't know anything else about her.
Also note his profession = taxidermist. That's as well as being a hairdresser (artist in hair) and a perfumer & a bird-stuffer in Bedford & then Newport Pagnell from 1838 up to 1881. The electoral roll of 1885 does not give an occupation.
From Trove newspapers I have found a number of entries 1885 - 1889 for Mantell + taxidermist, of George Street; sometimes he is known as Professor Mantell, some mention 'and daughter' some mention an Agnes Mantell. If that's his daughter ? then I'm confused, as I have marriage on 8 Apr 1882 at Newport Pagnell by licence; John Walker of Stantonbury to Agnes, youngest daughter of John Mantel of N P. Has she come to Australia as well?
Thanks for your help & thoughts
Cheers John
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28th April 1888
At 119 George Street Agnes MANTELL, taxidermist, was advertising for seal skins.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3473884
Sue
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A bit more digging ;D
I think we have two people, father and daughter leaving England under assumed names.
The daughter was perhaps known as Agnes and this is the name listed for her on the 1881 census, where, as you have mentioned, she lived with her father John MANTEL.
She was then 21 and a milliner born in Bedford.
Her name at birth registration was
MANTEL, Martha Jane Agnes
Mother WATFORD
Year 1859
June Quarter
BEDFORD 03B /335
And this full name she used at her marriage in 1882 to either John WALKER or William WOODWARD
Marriages Jun 1882
Newport P.
MANTEL Martha Jane A
3a 927
PASS Lucy Fanny
WALKER John
WOODWARD William
Sue
ADDING
On 1891 I think I see William WOODWARD with Lucy F. his wife.
Lucy F WOODWARD born abt 1858 at New Port Pagnell, Buckinghamshire
Head-William.
So it looks like Agnes married John WALKER.
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So...
It looks as if Agnes then went to New Zealand where she used her full and married name.
1905/6
WALKER, Martha Jane Agnes
Maranui, Melrose. Widow.
1911
WALKER, Martha Jane Agnes
Lyell Bay Rd. Maranu. Widow
1914
WALKER, Martha Jane Agnes
View Rd. Melrose. Widow
And died there.
1922/6480 WALKER Martha Jane Agnes. Aged 63Y
Sue
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Interesting, Sue.
There are also these NZ electoral roll entries which are the same as the ones you found but using her maiden name. ???
1905/1906
Martha Jane Agnes MANTELL, Maranui, Melrose, widow
1911
Martha Jane Agnes MANTELL, Lyall Bay Rd Maranui, widow
1914
Martha Jane Agnes MANTELL, View Rd Maranui, widow
(Firmly with tongue in cheek I wonder if she voted twice each time :o)
Judith
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Mmm...
Yes I suspect she was using the description "widow" more than loosely ::)
Can you see anything that might be her on the Bulimba passenger list?
I've tried.
Sue
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Oh Dear! ::)
I have been a little unfair to poor Agnes.
She did come to Qld under her married name .
I think this is her with husband John and daughter Laura in 1884
http://www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/Image/DigitalImageDisplay.aspx?ImageId=38617#page=16&view=Fit&ispdf=true
Here is the birth in England of Laura
Births Mar 1883
WALKER Laura Sarah M
At Newport P.
3a 715
And her death in QLD
1888 B21079 Laura Sarah Mantell WALKER
Parents John WALKER & Martha Jane Agnes MANTELL
:(
So John MANTELL had Agnes and husband and child already in the colony when he arrived.
Sue
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Laura was buried at Toowong Cemetery
WALKER LAURA SARAH MANTELL
Date of Birth 13-02-1882
Date of Death 02-08-1888
Age 6 Years
Others of the surname at the same location
WALKER ELLEN 06-08-1918
WALKER ELIZABETH OLIVE 31-08-1910
Sue
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Excellent finds, Sue. Poor Agnes lost her father, daughter and possibly her husband in Brisbane.
Judith
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:D
Or!
Did John WALKER move on to another relationship..
This death matches the burial with little Laura
1910 B12926 Elizabeth Olive WALKER
Parents John WALKER & Ellen GREEN
and this one could well be the mother of the above child.
1918 B27672 Ellen WALKER
Parents Thomas GREENWOOD & Elizabeth HAWKINS
[Greenwood could be GREEN by mistake of some sort]
Sue
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Again - great finds. Looks like Agnes did lose him! Judith
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Funeral Notice shows that Ellen WALKER d August 1918, shown by Sue to be buried at Toowong, was definitely stated to be the wife of John WALKER.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/20259431
Judith
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Thanks Judith & Sue for that info on Agnes Walker ne Mantell & family. So they came to Brisbane on ship Indus in August 1884. Not sure about John Walker though... could he have died, how do you know he was the one who got married to Ellen Green.
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On 2 July 1885 John Mantell, of full age, widow, Artist in Hair, of Newport Pagnell, father Richard Mantell (deceased) Builder........married... Elizabeth Froggatt, of full age, spinster, of Newport Pagnell, father Benjamin Froggatt (deceased) Gentleman....
Seems she was born Hackney, Middx, baptised 12/8/1829, daughter of Benjamin Froggatt & Anstis Apsey
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Laura was buried at Toowong Cemetery
WALKER LAURA SARAH MANTELL
Date of Birth 13-02-1882
Date of Death 02-08-1888
Age 6 Years
Others of the surname at the same location
WALKER ELLEN 06-08-1918
WALKER ELIZABETH OLIVE 31-08-1910
Sue
Hi John
Perhaps I should have been more specific in my use of the term location.
I meant not just the cemetery as the 'same location', but the grave
Location for all three is - 1-54-13 at the Toowong Cemetery.
https://graves.brisbane.qld.gov.au/
It was this that lead me to look further into who the other two might be. It looks to me as if John chose to bury his other deceased child and Ellen at the same site as his first child
Thanks Judith & Sue for that info on Agnes Walker ne Mantell & family. So they came to Brisbane on ship Indus in August 1884. Not sure about John Walker though... could he had died, how doi you know he was the one who got married to Ellen Green.
There were other children to the couple John WALKER and Ellen GREENWOOD. You can search them yourself.
https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/queryEntry.m?type=births
By the way, we have not used the term married in relation to these two. Merely stated there was a relationship.
The funeral notice states ‘wife’, but it there is not a law against a claim to marital status where it does not exist, unless there are legal issues involved.
Her death certificate, which can be downloaded after online payment, would give the place and date of a marriage if there was one.
Whatever happened, Agnes returned to using her birth surname.
In short, we cannot be sure we are looking at the right John WALKER, but it seems a likely bet to me.
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I agree with Sue - it's too much of a coincidence for a John WALKER's child and partner to have been buried in the same grave as John and Agnes' child unless it is the 'real' John WALKER.
Thank you, John, for posting the marriage details for John MANTEL and Elizabeth FROGGATT and the transcription of the asylum entry record.
Re Agnes - she was still using her married name on the electoral rolls in NZ 1905-1914, calling herself a widow when John was alive at least till 1913 - children born to him and Ellen GREENWOOD:
1914 B37487 John Wesley WALKER (died 1963, B62864)
1906 B12839 Nellie May WALKER, (married 1938 to Edwin Rufus Gough, B31553)
Judith
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1914 B37487 John Wesley WALKER (died 1963, B62864)
1906 B12839 Nellie May WALKER, (married 1938 to Edwin Rufus Gough, B31553)
Judith
Sad really.
When Edwin Rufus died he and Nellie had only been married a few months.
The marriage was in the last 2 weeks of April 1938 and he died in September 1938 aged 36.
Funeral notice
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/38698039
Perhaps Nellie remarried.
Here is her death.
1974 B56394 Nellie May STEVENSON
Parents John WALKER & Ellen GREENWOOD
Sue
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Heavens - not much luck in this family.
1841 - I see Elizabeth FROGGATT, 12, with her parents, Benjamin, an optician, and Anstis, and sibling Samuel 8, in West Square, Southwark.
1851 same family at at 2 Elm Grove, Camberwell (London). Benjamin is employing 6 men.
In 1861 Elizabeth is boarding on the Isle of Wight, occupation: "british teacher" whatever that means.
I can't see her in later censuses.
In 1871 Benjamin and Anstis are in Isleworth, but I can't see them in 1861. In 1881 it looks like Benjamin is in Brentford and there is a death registered in that district in 1882. Probate (1882) was granted to the son Samuel FROGGATT and daughter Elizabeth FROGGATT, spinster, of Optic Villa, Hanworth Rd, Hounslow which is also the address given for Benjamin.
Judith
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Thanks Judith... I had found most of that yesterday...
John Mantell/Elizabeth Froggatt got married at Independant Congregational Church, Newport Pagnell by licence.......witnesses Mary Balshaw (she was wife of James Balshaw the congregational minister who officiated) and Jane Hackett, both lived in Newport Pagnell
Elizabeth Froggatt had a non-conformist baptism on 12/8/1829 at Hackney, Middx, daughter of Benjamin Froggatt who married Anstis Apsey at Clerkenwell in 1828. Her brother Samuel Froggatt also had non-conformist baptism on 19/12/1833 at Lambeth. I've found the family on 1841 & 1851 census, father Benjamin is an optician. In 1861 Elizabeth b 1830 Hackney, single, boarder in Carisbrooke, Isle of Wight, & is British school mistress. I've not found her in 1871 but in 1881 in Paddington is a Elizabeth Froggett age 50 born Middx, London teacher of music, but she's down as married. Mother Anstis died 1878 & father Benjamin died 9 Sept 1882 both in Brentford RD, where his probate calendar entry says 'proved by Samuel Froggatt, son, of Oxford, professor of music & Elizabeth Froggatt, daughter, spinster of Optic villa, Isleworth'.... which is where Benjamin is in 1881. London Electoral Register has entries for Benjamin Froggatt from 1857 to 1880 Isleworth, living at Optic Villa, Hanworth Road, Hounslow.
John
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but in 1881 in Paddington is a Elizabeth Froggett age 50 born Middx, London teacher of music, but she's down as married.
John
When I look at the census page it shows.
FROGGETT, Elizabeth.
Married
Born London
Aged 50 (yob -1831)
Visitor
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Here she is in 1871
Elm Grove, Carisbrooke IoW
Elizabeth FROGGATT, 34, Governess and assistant, b Hackney Wick, Middlesex.
She is listed as Head of her household (consisting only of herself) but she is at the same address as a family DAUP/DAMP? where there are four children aged from 6 to 13, so I would think that she is governess for them.
Judith
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Oh good on you Judith. ;D
I could not see her in 1871 despite what I thought was a thorough search. ::)
Sue
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I don't find Ancestry all that consistent with the links it provides. Sometimes it seems to find lots of possibles and other times....... I know you and I had looked and I'm sure JohnP would have as well. ::)
Judith
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Thanks for finding her in 1871 Judith, seems her age is 6/7 years out and searching for place of birth of just Hackney doesn't find her. Looks to me as she's a Governess & Annuitant
John
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Yes, I agree Annuitant.
But I do wonder at the source of the annuity if it is the right woman.
Deceased relative perhaps.
Sue
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You're right - it is annuitant. The age is certainly not right, however on the balance of probablities - correct name, congruent occupation and the fact that she was in Carisbrooke on the previous census - I would think it's likely that it's the correct person. :-\
Judith
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Hi,
Do you think that the word annuitant on the 1871 census should have been assistant and it had been mistranscribed when individual forms were copied into enumerator's books?
If the 1871 Elizabeth is the right one then it looks like she is in Devon in 1881 transcribed as FROGGALT at Ancestry and looks like it as the first T isn't crossed,
1881 RG11/2139 f.4 p.2 Withycombe Rawleigh, Devon
Point in View
Elizabeth FROGGALT Head Unm 44 Schoolmistress Elementary Middlesex Hackney Wick
Could this be the Elizabeth FROGGATT that is in Paddington (Kensington registration district) in 1881,
1871 RG10/176 f.45 p.81 St Marylebone
5 Dorchester Place
Joseph FROGGATT Head M 73 Commission Agent Ashbury Derby
Elizabeth " Wife M 39 Middlesex St Pancras
In 1881 Joseph is boarding without Elizabeth which would fit with the married Elizabeth found in 1881,
1881 RG11/154 f.111 p.40 St Marylebone
6 Broadley St
Joseph FROGGATT Boarder M 81 Salesman Derby Ashburn
living in the household of Robert PALMER.
In 1891 both Joseph and Elizabeth are patients in the St Marylebone Infirmary in Kensington registration district.
RG12/29 f.174 p.26
Joseph FROGGATT M 86 Ret Butcher* Derby Deaf 5 1/2 years
*Joseph was a butcher in Marylebone in 1861
RG12/29 f.164 p.5
Elizabeth FROGGATT M 64 Dressmaker St Pancras, London
Regards,
Daisy
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Hi,
Do you think that the word annuitant on the 1871 census should have been assistant and it had been mistranscribed when individual forms were copied into enumerator's books?
If the 1871 Elizabeth is the right one then it looks like she is in Devon in 1881 transcribed as FROGGALT at Ancestry and looks like it as the first T isn't crossed,
1881 RG11/2139 f.4 p.2 Withycombe Rawleigh, Devon
Point in View
Elizabeth FROGGALT Head Unm 44 Schoolmistress Elementary Middlesex Hackney Wick
Regards,
Daisy
I agree this would be a better match as an 1881 sighting.
Sue
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I have been directed to these postings by someone searching for a William Henry Walker and Ellen Elizabeth Walker nee Pointer in Wellington, NZ and wondering if William and John were siblings? We have had no luck tracing them in Wellington mainly because of the common names.
Taking a punt re John Walker's death sometime after 1918 when his "wife" Ellen died!
The Indus shipping record records John Walker's age as being 25 years which would make his year of birth c 1859.
In Toowong cemetery there is a John Walker burial on 11 November 1940. This John Walker was 82 years of age which would make his year of birth around 1858 (Burial Ref 1-54-12/13).
Is anyone able to search the newspaper death notices to see whether this is the right John Walker or not?
Incidentially, Martha Jane Agnes Walker's 1922 probate is on Familysearch. Her address was given as View Road, North Melrose, Wellington occupation Ladies Hairdresser. She left all her property to her "partner" William Lacey, Ladies Hairdresser. His address was View Road, North Melrose. In an affadavit he stated that Martha was "domiciled at 34 Buller street, Wellington and that she died at that address". William died in 1926 and left his estate to his Housekeeper Mary Elizabeth MUNDY aka Elizabeth Mary MUNDY.
WNW
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In Toowong cemetery there is a John Walker burial on 11 November 1940. This John Walker was 82 years of age which would make his year of birth around 1858 (Burial Ref 1-54-12/13).
Is anyone able to search the newspaper death notices to see whether this is the right John Walker or not?
WNW
The Telegraph (Brisbane) 11Nov1940 http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/184537700
WALKER, John of Brunswick Street, Valley (John Hislop and Sons).
Funeral notice same page
WALKER.—Relatives and Friends of Mrs. R. Gough, Mr. John Walker, Junr., and Mrs. E. Prince are invited to attend the Funeral of their beloved Father and Brother, Mr. John Walker, of 472 Brunswick St., Valley, to leave the Funeral Chapel, 17 Peel St., South Brisbane, This (Monday) Afternoon,
at 4.30 o'clock, for the Toowong Cemetery.
Also in http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/44913560
Qld death: 10/11/1940 B49980 John Walker; Father-John; Mother-Elizabeth Bennett
1946 B8948 Emily Prince; Father-John Walker; Mother-Elizabeth Bennett
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Thanks Cupoflife for this information.
When John Walker's "wife" Ellen died in 1918 his residence was 458 Brunswick Street, Valley so possibly the correct one.
I checked Free UKBMD and found 2 John Walker's born in 1859 in Newport Padnell - one in the March quarter and the other in the June quarter.
In the 1861 census (RG9 Piece 873, Folio 93, Pg 38 for Newport Padnell) I found the Walker family as follows which looks like the correct one:
John Walker, Head 27, Bricklayer House?
Elizabeth 29
Elizabeth 6
Anne M 4
John 2
Sarah 2 months
I have yet to search the other census records.
WNW
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1914 B37487 John Wesley WALKER (died 1963, B62864)
1906 B12839 Nellie May WALKER, (married 1938 to Edwin Rufus Gough, B31553)
Judith
This seems to be the Mrs GOUGH referred to in the Funeral Notice.
Sue
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1914 B37487 John Wesley WALKER (died 1963, B62864)
1906 B12839 Nellie May WALKER, (married 1938 to Edwin Rufus Gough, B31553)
Judith
Sad really.
When Edwin Rufus died he and Nellie had only been married a few months.
The marriage was in the last 2 weeks of April 1938 and he died in September 1938 aged 36.
Funeral notice
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/38698039
Perhaps Nellie remarried.
Here is her death.
1974 B56394 Nellie May STEVENSON
Parents John WALKER & Ellen GREENWOOD
Sue
http://mrail.net/data/cemete/aus/queen/caboolture/caboolture/caboolture_ps.htm
Stevenson, Nellie May, d. Nov 19, 1974, age 68yr, My dear wife, s/w John Walker
s/w = shares plot/stone with (http://mrail.net/data/cemete/aus/queen/caboolture/caboolture/index.htm)
Adding:
http://mrail.net/data/cemete/aus/queen/caboolture/caboolture/caboolture_tz.htm
Walker, John Welsley [sic], d. Dec 25, 1963, age 49yr, My dear Brother-in-law, s/w Nellie May Stevenson
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In the 1861 census (RG9 Piece 873, Folio 93, Pg 38 for Newport Padnell) I found the Walker family as follows which looks like the correct one:
John Walker, Head 27, Bricklayer House?
Elizabeth 29
Elizabeth 6
Anne M 4
John 2
Sarah 2 months
I have yet to search the other census records.
WNW
Using the newish GRO search facility, the mother of the above children, including John seems to be Sarah edit Elizabeth BENNETT.
WALKER, JOHN
Mother BENNETT
Ref 1859 March Quarter
At NEWPORT PAGNELL UNION
Volume 03A Page 471
Sue
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Here's the marriage
Marriages Dec quarter 1853
BENNETT Elizabeth
WALKER John
Newport P. 3a 759
Sue
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Mantell John. His daughter Elizabeth b 1850 emigrated to NZ 1867 and married Cecil Augustus Victor de Cortando. She established a school in Palmerston North. There is a letter from her mother who was expecting to visit her in Wellington, but sadly her mother died soon after writing it. There is a letter in reference to visiting her sister Agnes in Lyall Bay, and a photo of her.