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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: shels1 on Tuesday 10 January 17 23:46 GMT (UK)
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hi i am doing my family tree and was looking for my great grand mother Annie Hurley whom married Samuel Leech. when i found out that her last name was Annie Doocey. Her mother name was Hurley. in the 1901 and 1911 census 4 of her siblings where doocey she was Hurley in 1901 and 1911 she was married leech some of the siblings where Hurley as well why would this happen.
help would be nice
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When was Annie born and where and when and where did she marry Samuel?
Dates and places would help when looking for people.
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it is hard to know when she was born as she had was born as age and name are different. she also lied about her life as well. in 1901 she was Hannah hurley age 21. in 1906 she said she was 18 and in 1911 she was annie leech. i know her father as she said was Bartholomew hurley and marie deasy from her marriage cert. i did find out that her father last name was really doocey and mother was Hurley. this is the problem
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Is this family in Dublin and she is from Waterford?
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she was born in waterford but move to dublin to be a maid for two ladies living in sandymount
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For some reason there is no image of her marriage online.
Hannah and Annie, Ann, Anna are interchangeable names.
She didn't fill in any of the Census herself so you don't know if she was asked her age in 1901 or if Miss Bate just guessed.
Do you know if her mother could have been widowed and remarried?
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i would have your marriage detail at home which said she was full of age and her name was annie harley. it said her father name was Bartholomew Harley and Marie deasy. i did find a distant cousin but he could not find her at all.
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Full age is over 21.
A Johanna Doocey was born in Lismore, a Reg district of Waterford in 1879 to Bartholomew Doocey and Mary Hurley
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02904/2064143.pdf
So for some reason she has swapped the surnames around.
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yes and a few of the siblings seem to do the same
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Is this their father's death in 1891
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1891/06069/4730582.pdf
It is a rather strange thing to do, are you 100% sure they are not two different families.
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yes and yes it is. there is a story that they were fighting in the war of independence in Ireland and that had something to do with it. i did a dna which show my cousin who found the name change but no one he ask new why
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I see a likely marriage in 1869 in Lismore but I don't see any other children other than Johanna in 1879.
Have you got the births of all the children?
Ah see some now as Doosy.
It's late must sleep.
Did all the children change names?
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If I'm looking at the correct people, it looks like mother Mary died in 1900, informant son Michael. He doesn't appear to have changed his name.
Death 1900 address same a Bart death 1891
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1900/05768/4630174.pdf
Michael 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Waterford/Tallow/Kilcalf_Mountain/910863/
And 1901 with the rest of the children except Johanna
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Waterford/Tallow/Kilcalf_Mountain/1759051/
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I thought Young Thomas might be the reason but his mother is their sister Mary.
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it would be after 1911 census when this happen from what i can see. they were all born doocey
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I've been looking at some trees on Ancestry
That also have the mixed up doocey and hurleys but I believe they.ve copied each others mistakes
It must be two separate but linked families
I initially thought Annie was
Johannah D ..s daughter
Johanna born 1879 Kilbeg waterford
I don't think one family would have alternate children s birth in kilcalf and Waterford ..tho I don't know how close these places are
There is another Michael doocey aged 26. In 1901
with Mary doocey aged 70
Ellie D aged 23
Michael. 26 Currabaho Waterford
Patrick Doocey 24
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Bartholemew Doosey is down as 1841-1891
Mary Hurley is younger
Could she be a widow with 4 Hurley children marrying a widower with 5 children
Then having 5 more children together
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Mary Hurley .parents
?
Michael Hurley 1810-1870 and Johannah Hannah cordon
Bartholomew 1841-1891
Parents
Thomas doocey 1810-1874. Mary hickey 1820-1894
Is that right ? It fits very well with naming their first four children Thomas johana Michael and Mary if they followed
Traditional naming
If its it the same as Scotland next girl should be Elizabeth after mother next boy should be Barth after his father
Mary Dooley born 1875 tallow
Maurice Hurley b tallow
Come before Elizabeth Doocey b1883 tallow
And Bartholomew Dooley 1886
I can't see Irish census which children were named on the ones you've seen ??
had private message with shels ...before these findings ..she's convinced it's one family
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that is what i have so far brigidmac
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Have army pension records for Sam leech from 1908 so there may be some for the Hurley Doosey brothers too
Do you have any proof of what year they changed their names
When I have time I.ll look at what baptism birth records exist and see what was each child's given surname
Please confirm if facts sinaed and I give are correct .
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I can't look at that tree so I can't make sense of any of those records, I picked one to see if I could find it.
Mary Doocey born 1875
Birth Cert
Born 15 April 1875 Kilbeg
Parents Bart Doosy Mary Hurley
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1875/03099/2136361.pdf
Baptised in Tallow Parish
18 April 1875
First on the page
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632266#page/59/mode/1up
Don't have time to look at any more just now.
June 22 1879 Johanna same parents as Mary
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632266#page/67/mode/1up
And her birth cert
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02904/2064143.pdf
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Quick summary : for Annie
Annie h Harley m Samuel Leech 1906 Dublin
On his army pension record 1908
She is Annie Horley
Sam is 28 proffession painter contractor
Son Bernard and daughter Elizabeth
Plus Kathleen leech and Steven murial leach that bit is unreadable ..could it be his parents names
1911Annie and Sam leech with children Ben aged 4 ( Bnd)
Kathleen 3 Sam 1
And William Nicol age 50
Hannah Hurley servant age 21 on 1901 census probably the same lady
Maurice Hurley witnessed Bartholomew Doocey s death in 1894
Annie not with any siblings on any census found so far
13 children registered to parents bartholemew doocey and Mary Hurley
Bartholomew Doosey married Maria Hurley 15 the April 1875 kinsway
Johanna birth in waterford 1879 gives mother's name as Mary Hurley Doocey
Does that help at all ?
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Hold on Bartholomew death 1894, who is he?
I'm totally lost, seem to be talking about two different families.
Need to sort out the Waterford and Lismore births first to see if they are two different families.
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I still suspect there were two Bartholomew Doocey.s
Or one who married Mary Hurley Doocey and then her cousin Mary Hurley
Someone noted that Michael was informant on his mother s death
And that Mary Hurley died 1900
But there is a 1901 census with Mary doocey aged 70
Ellie aged 23
Michael 26
and Patrick doocey 24 in Waterford currabaho
Which doesn't make sense unless death date for Mary was wrong
Sin
the note about Maurice Hurley witnessing bartholemew Doosey in 1891 threw me too
Several trees on ancestry have Barth Doosey 1841-1891
With all those children
Shels what convinces you that it's one family ??
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Bat Doocey Kilcalf died in 1891 the informant was his wife Mary
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1891/06069/4730582.pdf
Mary Doocy died 1900 Kilcalf informant her son Michael
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1900/05768/4630174.pdf
Michael Doocey is living in Kilcalf in 1901 with his siblings but no Johanna.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Waterford/Tallow/Kilcalf_Mountain/1759051/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Waterford/Tallow/Kilcalf_Mountain/910863/
First thing to do is see if this is the same family that was having children in Kilbeg, where there was a birth of Doocey children to a Bartholomew and Mary Hurley.
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Bart Doocey and Mary Hurley appear to have married 1869
Registered in Lismore, image not online yet
Vol 9 Page 382 for both.
First child Thomas born August 1869
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632266#page/44/mode/1up
Joanna 4 June 1871 There is a death of a Johanna Doosey 1871 age 0 image not online yet
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632266#page/49/mode/1up
Michael 2 Jan 1873
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632266#page/53/mode/1up
Maria/Mary 18 April 1875
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632266#page/59/mode/1up
Joannes/John 11 March 1877
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632266#page/62/mode/1up
Joanna 22 June 1879
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632266#page/67/mode/1up
That's as far as I can go with the Parish Register for Tallow, note there are no marriages noted against any of the Doocey childrens baptisms.
Moving to the Civil Reg
Maurice 1 July 1881 Kilcalf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1881/02813/2032200.pdf
Eliza 3 July 1883 Kilcalf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02721/2001209.pdf
Margaret 14 April 1885 Kilcalf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02644/1975120.pdf
Bart 5 Nov 1886 Kilbeg
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02579/1953296.pdf
Unknown born 3 pm and Patrick born 3.30pm April 1889 Kilcalf. There are deaths of an unknown and a Patrick aged 0 1889 not online yet
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1889/02471/1917672.pdf
Thomas 1 Dec 1890 Kilcalf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1890/02406/1897379.pdf
Think that is all of them.
It appears by 1901 all the older children have scattered, leaving Michael in charge of the younger ones but by 1911 they to are gone.
Where did they go and did they change their surname?
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well done siann ..I had found some of those records too but cant copy and paste from ancestry and it was quite laborious writing it all out
I hope i didnt make mistakes
so do you now agree with shels that it is only one family ??
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Maurice Hurley witnessed Bartholomew Doocey s death in 1894
Bartholomew Doosey married Maria Hurley 15 the April 1875 kinsway
Sources are needed for these records so they can be checked.
I can't find the death in 1894.
Don't know where Kinsway is but the marriage seems too late anyway.
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well done siann ..I had found some of those records too but cant copy and paste from ancestry and it was quite laborious writing it all out
I hope i didnt make mistakes
so do you now agree with shels that it is only one family ??
I can't see any evidence yet that it is only one family.
The Kilbeg/Kilcalf family have scattered by 1911, Thomas may be working as a servant near home, and Michael stayed at home but some may be married but if they did they don't seem to have married in their home parish, some or all may have emigrated.
Anna Hurley's marriage image isn't online so can't look at it, it won't have her mother's name but does it say her father is deceased.
also
i know her father as she said was Bartholomew hurley and marie deasy from her marriage cert.
Irish marriage certs don't have mother's names so what is this referring to.
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i have no proof of name change but i know that this happen as her grand child is in touch and had the same info
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Maurice Hurley witnessed Bartholomew Doocey s death in 1894
this person would be there son from what i know
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The comment about Maurice came from a tree in ancestry I did not see the source ...sorry
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Maurice Hurley witnessed Bartholomew Doocey s death in 1894
this person would be there son from what i know
Bartholomew is still alive in 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Waterford/Tallow/Kilcalf_Mountain/1759051/
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i have no proof of name change but i know that this happen as her grand child is in touch and had the same info
I'm not saying it didn't happen but so far in our search there is nothing to say it has happened.
Where did the information about the marriage to Samuel come from?
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The Batholemew on the 1901 census is the son of bartholemew senior who is supposed to have died in 1900
Michael's was head of 🏠 with his younger siblings and nephew
Maurice was another child of BARTHOLEMEW doocey and Mary Hurley
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This is an interesting though very confusing thread ;D
I have done a wee timeline as I was getting lost & the sums are not adding up for me either :-\
Sinann Reply #25
Bart Doocey (who dies 1891) and Mary Hurley (who dies 1900) appear to have married 1869
Registered in Lismore, image not online yet
Vol 9 Page 382 for both.
First child Thomas born August 1869
Joanna 4 June 1871 There is a death of a Johanna Doosey 1871 age 0 image not online yet
Michael 2 Jan 1873
Meanwhile (in-between)……but above Mary doesn’t die until 1900
Brigid Reply #21
Bartholomew Doosey married Maria Hurley 15 the April 1875 kinsway
But continuing with births with Mary from Sinann Reply #25
Maria/Mary 18 April 1875
Joannes/John 11 March 1877
Joanna 22 June 1879
Then…6 yrs after the 1875 Marriage (in between the above births)……
Maurice 1 July 1881 Kilcalf
Eliza 3 July 1883 Kilcalf
Margaret 14 April 1885 Kilcalf
Bart 5 Nov 1886 Kilbeg
Unknown born 3 pm and Patrick born 3.30pm April 1889 Kilcalf. There are deaths of an unknown and a Patrick aged 0 1889 not online yet
Thomas 1 Dec 1890 Kilcalf
Then……
Maurice Hurley witnessed Bartholomew Doocey s death in 1894 but Brigid has him dying 1900 (from somewhere) & there's another mention he died 1891.
Bartholomew died...
1891
1894
1900
Are the dates all referring to the same man?
Maurice would have been 13 yrs old (would a 13 yr old do this)?
Then Mary (1st wife) dies 1900
My guess is it has to be different families but there's no mention of ages supporting 3 deaths for Bartholomew i.e. that needs investigated & were these deaths all in the same area or spread?
Just thought it was easier to grasp but still not making sense ::)
My references & comments are not meant in any bad way, simply putting all info. I see in one place along with my thoughts.
Sinann & Bridgid doing a great job plucking here to get to the bones ;D
Annie
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You have laid the problems out well.
This is an interesting though very confusing thread ;D
I have done a wee timeline as I was getting lost & the sums are not adding up for me either :-\
Sinann Reply #25
Bart Doocey (who dies 1891) and Mary Hurley (who dies 1900) appear to have married 1869
Registered in Lismore, image not online yet
Vol 9 Page 382 for both.
First child Thomas born August 1869
Joanna 4 June 1871 There is a death of a Johanna Doosey 1871 age 0 image not online yet
Michael 2 Jan 1873
Meanwhile (in-between)……but above Mary doesn’t die until 1900
Brigid Reply #21
Bartholomew Doosey married Maria Hurley 15 the April 1875 kinsway
Just to add to this, I can't find any place in Co. Waterford called Kinsway.
I can't find this marriage in the area the Dooceys were living or any where else in Ireland.
Then……
Maurice Hurley witnessed Bartholomew Doocey s death in 1894 but Brigid has him dying 1900 (from somewhere) & there's another mention he died 1891.
Bartholomew died...
1891
1894
1900
Are the dates all referring to the same man?
Maurice would have been 13 yrs old (would a 13 yr old do this)?
Then Mary (1st wife) dies 1900
My guess is it has to be different families but there's no mention of ages supporting 3 deaths for Bartholomew i.e. that needs investigated & were these deaths all in the same area or spread?
I must have missed the 1900 death, I'd have to read back to find it.
Mary the mother died in 1900.
Bartholomew Doocey husband of Mary Hurley died in 1891 aged 50, his death was registered, the informant was his wife Mary.
He only had one wife that I can find.
The 1894 death, is a total mystery to me.
The informant was Maurice Hurley which indicates the information is from a death cert, yet there is no death of a Bartholomew registered in Lismore in 1894.
This is what I've understood so far about this death from what's been said.
Bartholomew Doocey son of Bartholomew Doocey and Mary Hurley died in 1894, his death was registered and the informant was his 13 year old brother Maurice who claimed to be Bartholomew's brother but used the surname Hurley for himself. Bartholomew than rises from the death and is living with his brother Michael and other siblings in 1901.*
*I said 1911 in an earlier reply by mistake.
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The spelling of the surname is a bit different but the age is only out by a year.
Bartholomew Ducey born Ireland 1887 parents Bartholomew Ducey and Mary Hurley in America.
Marriage
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:243Z-WRF
Death
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WVP-DNG
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I got through the back door, yeepee
Marriage of Anna Harley to Samuel Leech 1906
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1906/10145/5691245.pdf
anyone what to make a stab at the middle initial of her name.
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I think it's an H
Apologies for some of my vague facts ..I was making discoveries late at night and on my tablet not computer so couldn't copy .i.m hoping that now shels is on# An try
I can share my finds with her including document refs which I wouldn't attempt to copy
....but some of the information was from what people had on their trees no evidences actually given !
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Next problem is her surname, should it be Harley or Hurley
she has children with both.
1911 Census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Pembroke_West/Vergemont_Hall/6288/
Ben (haven't found him yet)
Kathleen 1908 mother Harley
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1908/01656/1660708.pdf
Samuel 1909 mother transcribed as Hurley but see what you think
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1910/01583/1637313.pdf
Mary Elizabeth 1912 mother Harley
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1912/01474/1600412.pdf
Eileen Margaret 1913 mother Harley
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1914/01422/1583988.pdf
Elizabeth Mary 1915 mother Hurley
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1915/01361/1561293.pdf
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That is the problem I am having is all the name changed of names and ages different. Thank for the work will look into today
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I think it's an H
Apologies for some of my vague facts ..I was making discoveries late at night and on my tablet not computer so couldn't copy .i.m hoping that now shels is on ancestry I can share my finds with her including document refs which I wouldn't attempt to copy ....but some of the information was from what people had on their trees no evidences actually given !
So which information has hard evidence? Forget about anything with out documentation.
Do you know if there is any documented evidence of Annie Hurley/Harley/Leech's mother's maiden name.
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Apologies for some of my vague facts ..
Brigid,
I knew it was A*try, was meaning we didn't know where the person who's tree it came from found the info. ;D but was mainly just to point out there may have been a possible other marriage with a different couple given the fact it was in-between having children with his wife i.e. relating to your post for reading over (nothing worse having to read through everything when we can relate to a post no. #) & that's why I done the timeline as my eyes were like ping-pong balls going back & forth ::)
Sinann,
You're on a roll but I don't envy your task with all those variants (have enough in my own tree to find) :P
Annie
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They married in the Church in Sandymount. Sandymount doesn't appear to have any records online
https://www.johngrenham.com/records/rc_church.php?churchid=0528&parish=Sandymount
the only way to see if her mother's name is on the marriage would be to ask the church in Sandymount.
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Next problem is her surname, should it be Harley or Hurley
she has children with both.
Looking at it from the point of the law of averages, Harley seems to win :-\
I know more is needed to confirm but at least following one at a time may be easier i.e. the most likely would you say ???
Annie
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Ha ha Annie I made a list on paper of each child alternating Hurley and Doosey births then couldn't remember where I'd got the information and I too am getting confused with my own family
Sinann regarding the ressurrected Bartholemew isn't it more likely that he died and his wife registered it
and it was the BARTHOLEMEW junior died later so Maurice was an adult registering his brothers death .
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Sinann,
You're on a roll but I don't envy your task with all those variants (have enough in my own tree to find) :P
Annie
Without marriage cert from Sandymount church I think my roll has hit a rock and come to a very full stop. :'(
I'm soooo happy at finding a way to view the Civil Cert though, that has made my day. ;D
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Must admit I'm still very curious about this Bart Doosey death in 1894, I'd love to see the evidence for that.
Unless some one has the marriage cert from Sandymount church to show otherwise I would conclude that Anna Hurley/Harley who married Samuel Leech in 1906 has no connection with the Dooseys of Kilbeg/Kilcalf Waterford other than the fact they all come from somewhere in Waterford.
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Can anyone/someone do a timeline of deaths/possible deaths, names/place/age/informant (where applicable) for some sort of guide as I'm going Woozy with Doocey et al ???
This gives a good indication of why certs. are paramount & more so with so much contradiction.
Annie
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Ha ha Annie I made a list on paper of each child alternating Hurley and Doosey births then couldn't remember where I'd got the information and I too am getting confused with my own family
Sinann regarding the ressurrected Bartholemew isn't it more likely that he died and his wife registered it
and it was the BARTHOLEMEW junior died later so Maurice was an adult registering his brothers death .
Bartholomew's wife did register his death in 1891.
If Barthoemew junior died in 1894 why is he on the 1901 census?
Show me the 1894 death cert please.
Is no one looking at all the links.
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I.ve not had time too open them all
assumed some were the same as what i.d noted down already
I thought i.d written a summary of births but can't see it on here
Was waiting for shels OP so as not to repeat research
She's at work
I hope someone has time to do the summary too
It.s fascinating .
I.ll try and summarise all the BARTHOLEMEW information because I may have introduced the red herring Maurice fact
But won't have time til weekend
patience is a virtue ....meanwhile more clues may turn up on the site that must not be mentioned or in an Irish church
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Bart Doocey and Mary Hurley married 1869
They had 13 children.
1. Thomas Doocey born August 1869
2. Joanna Doocey 4 June 1871. Died 1871
3. Michael Doocey 2 Jan 1873
4. Maria/Mary Doocey 18 April 1875.
5. Joannes/John Doocey 11 March 1877
6.Joanna Doocey 22 June 1879
7. Maurice Doocey 1 July 1881 Kilcalf
8. Eliza Doocey 3 July 1883 Kilcalf
9. Margaret Doocey 14 April 1885 Kilcalf
10. Bartholomew Doocey 5 Nov 1886 Kilbeg
11.Unknown female Doocey born 3 pm April 1889 died 1889 (twin)
12. Patrick Doocey born 3.30pm April 1889 Kilcalf. died 1889 (twin)
13.Thomas Doocey 1 Dec 1890 Kilcalf
1891 Bartholomew Doocey dies aged 50 informant his wife Mary.
1894 Thomas Doocey, Mary's son is born, grand mother Mary informant.
1900 Mary Doocey dies age 48 informant her son Michael.
1901 Michael 26 is head of household with his siblings
Eliza 18
Bartholomew 13
Thomas 10
Thomas 6 his nephew, Mary's son.
1911
Michael is alone on the farm, unmarried.
Where is Margaret in 1901? Why isn't she with the other 'younger' children.
Bartholomew appears to have gone to America, married 9 March 1911 to Mary Jane Bar. Died 24 April 1930.
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That's great sinann if I could do that copying posts thing I could add which were baptised Hurley and which Doosey I have my list on paper
I have Johannah doocey 1871. -1871 Kilcalf John HURLEY 1877-1932 B tallow
Michael DOOCEY 1873-1924 Maurice Hurley. B.tallow
Mary DOOCEY 1875. +
Eliz D 1883
Margaret Doocey 1885 Kilcalf
Barth D. Tallow
Ann D 1889-1889. Kilcalf. + An Annie Hurley somewhere
Patrick D 1889-1889. "
Thomas D 1890. "
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I'm confused I posted all the links to their baptisms already, I didn't see any named Hurley.
Can you give me the dates of the Hurley ones please and the parish.
Where are you getting these.
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John Doocey 1877
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I'd have to re read every link and every comment on here and on A#
Which I've already done
Several times to make my paper notes
So none of your babtisms or marriages were Hurley s ??
Some of the surnames were from records and trees on ancestry
I had Bartholemew seniors parents as
Thomas Doocey 1810-1891
And Mary Hickey 1820-1894
Mary Hurley daughter of Michael Hurley 1810-1870
+ Johannah Hannah Cordon
If that helps
Maybe some of the children had Hurley as a middle name and used it as a surname to help them hide from persecution or prosecution
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Here is the 1877 Tallow Baptism Register
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632266#page/62/mode/1up
it's free you can look through it.
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I'd have to re read every link and every comment on here and on A#
Which I've already done
Several times to make my paper notes
So none of your babtisms or marriages were Hurley s ??
Some of the surnames were from records and trees on ancestry
I had Bartholemew seniors parents as
Thomas Doocey 1810-1891
And Mary Hickey 1820-1894
Mary Hurley daughter of Michael Hurley 1810-1870
+ Johannah Hannah Cordon
If that helps
Maybe some of the children had Hurley as a middle name and used it as a surname to help them hide from persecution or prosecution
I haven't looked for their parents because their marriage image isn't online yet, it would be possible to look through the parish register for their baptisms but it would be guess work.
Apart from their mother's surname I haven't see the name Hurley in relation to any of the Dooceys.
What prosecution?
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I've added Doocey to all the childrens names to save confusion
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That's great sinann if I could do that copying posts thing I could add which were baptised Hurley and which Doosey I have my list on paper
I have Johannah doocey 1871. -1871 Kilcalf John HURLEY 1877-1932 B tallow I don't see a John Hurley in the parish register
Michael DOOCEY 1873-1924 Maurice Hurley. B.tallow What year
Mary DOOCEY 1875. +
Eliz D 1883
Margaret Doocey 1885 Kilcalf
Barth D. Tallow
Ann D 1889-1889. Kilcalf. This could be the twin of Patrick but where does the name come from? + An Annie Hurley somewhere
Patrick D 1889-1889. "
Thomas D 1890. "
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thank you for all the good work will look at it now and add to my tree
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thank you for all the good work will look at it now and add to my tree
Who are you related to? Is the Leech family?
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Sorry shels couldn't find your tree
I our name spellings and dates must match exactly do you put women under maiden names
which spelling did you use for Ann Hurley and Bartholemew Doosey ??
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Sorry siann I can't answer those questions til I have time to review
I just wanted to post all the information I have so far
The prosecution was what shels talked about Irish indep +
family having to hide and change names due to the war
I think we have to understand the background to guess what may have happened
I haven't taken in the American details yet..wonder ..why they went and come back on those particular dates ??
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I'm trying to help and did a lot of searching ...........even created a tree on Ancxy for this search
It's first time I've done any Irish research
I don't have technical KNOW HOW to transfer info
And don't have TIME to copy all out manually
Siann has found so much already
but we you do NEED a SUMMARY
When I have spare moments I try and add details to avoid double searches
Thanks for your encouragement ROSIn
For Information of anyone reading this .
OP Shels (Original poster) + I want to find a mutual time to consolidate tree facts and fiction
I'm sure with help from more competent people
She will get to the bottom of this mystery eventually
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I am related to Samuel leech and Ann hurley
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There is a new post about name changing Irish soldier s on beginners board today
Easier identify disguise is to use mothers maiden name for whole family and middle name as first name
So it's not actually fraud
Good luck with your hunt Shel
Ps I'm not related to any Irish people despite my first name
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Some interesting answers have been given re why Irish soldiers may have changed names
on Irish soldiers topic below
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=772131.new#new
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copied and abridged from a pm
"The marriage cert and several baptisms give Annie/Hannah name as Harley.
The marriage cert Shels mentions gives her mother as Marie Deasy. If it has the mother's name on it than it can only have come for the church in Sandymount.
Who got it and when, is it a transcript or a image of the original?
From what I've read Sandymount records are not online anywhere.
The IRA was formed in 1917, the War of Independence was from 1917 to 1922. Johanna Doocey is meant to have changed her name by the time of the 1901 Census. If she did it wasn't anything to do with the IRA. By the time the IRA was formed her name would have been Leech so even if some of her family got on the wrong side of the IRA she wouldn't have needed to change her name.
So unless you can get detailed information on the marriage cert and a fuller explanation as to why the family supposed to have changed it's name you are the road to nowhere."
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The IRA was formed in 1917,
yes it was there were to group the IRA and the irb. People say ira when they mean irb. Why i have no idea
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Hmm,
Is the father's name listed on the marriage of Annie/Hannah Harley & have I missed his name on this thread somewhere?
Mother Marie Deasy
I personally am struggling to find a soundex between Deasy & Doosey/Doocey/Ducey etc. :-\
For me 'ea' & 'oo/'u' are in no way similar but I'm willing to stand corrected if my thoughts are proven to be wrong ::)
We need father's name & a marriage for them badly :D
Annie
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I don't know the answer to that Annie
But ...
Major success ..Shel and I have finally managed to find each others trees on Ancxxxry.
She is copying documents now and checking facts I think
Past my bed time ...I don't know how to do clever things like alternative spellings
I do it by re editing the names and changing spellings ..t
But at the risk of entering wrong data have to keep tree private so I don't lead others into following my mistakes .
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Sinann,
I have gone over this thread with 'tired eyes' & still as confused as I was ;D
I may be way off track here but....
Can Shels please confirm (my question in blue)
Bart Doocey and Mary Hurley married 1869
They had 13 children.
1. Thomas Doocey born August 1869
2. Joanna Doocey 4 June 1871. Died 1871
3. Michael Doocey 2 Jan 1873
4. Maria/Mary Doocey 18 April 1875. (Is this the Maria who's the mother of Anna/Annie & she (Maria) married a Bartholomew Hurley)?
5. Joannes/John Doocey 11 March 1877
6.Joanna Doocey 22 June 1879
7. Maurice Doocey 1 July 1881 Kilcalf
8. Eliza Doocey 3 July 1883 Kilcalf
9. Margaret Doocey 14 April 1885 Kilcalf
10. Bartholomew Doocey 5 Nov 1886 Kilbeg
11.Unknown female Doocey born 3 pm April 1889 died 1889 (twin)
12. Patrick Doocey born 3.30pm April 1889 Kilcalf. died 1889 (twin)
13.Thomas Doocey 1 Dec 1890 Kilcalf
Annie (still confused) ??? ::) ;D
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no that would be a sister.
My great grand mother was born Annie doocey from tallow Waterford.
Mother Mary Hurley Father Bartholomew doocey.
When she arrive in Dublin she took her mother last name of Hurley
When she got married she said her father name was Bartholomew Hurley and mother Mary
doocey.
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no that would be a sister.
My great grand mother was born Annie doocey from tallow Waterford.
Mother Mary Hurley Father Bartholomew doocey.
When she arrive in Dublin she took her mother last name of Hurley
When she got married she said her father name was Bartholomew Hurley and mother Mary
doocey.
Shels,
Can you please post dates with info. as we go as it saves having to scroll back many pages & easier for all on such a long confusing thread with so much different info.
Can you tell us what info. is on the birth records of each of the children of your g g/mother Annie please?
Is she Joanna Doocey 22 June 1879?
Annie
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shels there is a setting which notifies you when you have replies
when you press NEW REPIES in bar at top any topics you've contributed to
will show the last person who posted + time /date .
Dont give up ..it's a different way of doing things than the live chat room help .
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i am looking for the info with the dates for all as age will do it in a few
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Is she Joanna Doocey 22 June 1879?
this could be her will look it up
she had 10 kids from what i was able to find
Ben 1907 ( one month after ashe was married)
Kathleen 1908
Samuel 1910
George 1907
steven 1911
mary e 1912
eileen 1913
elizabeth m 1915
Charles f 1919
Madge j 1925
From what i can see all her name would be annie hurley/harley
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Arent some of the baptisms on the links Siann gave early on this thread ??
was that the wrong mother + father ?
and some were in the tree I made but you said documents on there were not helpful
I have more time next week + can go try going thru step by step
starting with the absolute facts ! + eliminating entries which may have led to following the wrong Ann Hurley at one branch
Ps .are you getting new message notifications yet ??..
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Is she Joanna Doocey 22 June 1879?
this could be her will look it up
she had 10 kids from what i was able to find
Ben 1907 ( one month after ashe was married)
Kathleen 1908
Samuel 1910
George 1907
steven 1911
mary e 1912
eileen 1913
elizabeth m 1915
Charles f 1919
Madge j 1925
From what i can see all her name would be annie hurley/harley
Were Ben and George twins?
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No Ben was January 1907 and George around Dec that same year.
When Annie Hurley got married to Samuel leech in 1906 she was over 8 months pregnant.
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If you have all the BCs can you be more specific with the name she gives on each birth please?
I personally think you may be following the wrong family ???
Can you give exactly the spellings for Annie's surname on each & exactly the spelling of her surname on her marriage as well as other details such as witnesses to the marriage & exactly the name of her father & his occupation please (with dates to save us scrolling back)?
Please can you use info. from certs. not hearsay.
Annie
Added Did Annie sign her name on her marriage or did she 'make her mark' with an 'X'?
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Hi rosinish
I am very sorry if i am confusing you all lot.
i am very sure that my great grand mother took her mother name and follow the right people. This info came from a cousin i found from result of my DNA test on ancestry.
I understand that it is confusing tread is confusing. thank for all your work
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Shels the cousins dna would be connected to yours even if the relationships to all these people is a bit differebt to on your tree
Does that make sense ?
He she may have jumped to conclusions found evidence that proved it but mixing two branches of same family .dont forvget if named after grandparennts cousins will have exactly same name .
Will puntuate and correct spellings woridings when on computer
Dont despair ..maybe take a break from it for a bit ...thevdead arent going anywhere .
Annie has a logical experienced approach ...and seems to have thebpatince and determination to help you and i think there are other people on ancestry who have these mames on their trees have you sent tham mmessages .
Happy hunting .FYI.im busy cos s radio reporter wsnts detsils of my great gran .there are irish connections but he.s got a genealogist + fullaccess to newspapers
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Ok
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Shels did mars ever make contact with you?
Her thinking is different from yours in that she thinks it is possible two of the Doocey brothers, Maurice and John, may have been members of the IRB and changed their name to hide this.
Of course they may have been hiding from the authorities for entirely different reasons.
The case for Maurice Hurley and Maurice Doocey being the same person is fairly good if the Scottish records she has prove to be correct.
It still wouldn't confirm that Johanna Doocey also changed her name but it would support the idea.
If the Maurice Doocey in the 1901 Census of Ireland is Johanna's brother it begs the question why hasn't he already fled Ireland and changed his name, if as is believed Johanna had already changed her name and gone to Dublin by 1901.
If mars could say when Maurice Hurley married in Scotland it would give a time frame to search newspapers and prison records from 1901 to that date to see if Maurice Doocey shows up in any kind of trouble.
Dates for John would also help.
Unfortunately every thing that might help find the answer seems to be either not online or on subscription sites.
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I not sure I know I did give my e-mail but
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Hi Shels1,
My wife is a Leech and her Grandfather was Samuel Leech and her Grandmother was Hannah Hurley/Harley and now maybe Doocey? Her father was Arthur Leech and happy to share offline if you like.
Kind regards
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Hello all,
I descend through Maurice Doocey/Hurley (my great grandfather) and am the relative that uncovered the name change. I spent many years searching for Bartholomew Hurley and Mary Doocey to no avail. I then met a distant relative through Family Tree DNA who lived in the Tallow, Ireland area and it was he who suggested the name change. I found the birth registration of this Maurice Doocey and it matched the date I had for my great grandfather who I knew to be Maurice Hurley. Also, through my grandfather who was a son of Maurice, I knew that Maurice was young when his parents died and he came from a large family of which I had several names. Even the fact that there were two brothers named Thomas. After Maurice's mother died, he found his older brother Michael too controlling so he went to live with a neighbor. This matches what is in the 1901 census where Maurice is living nearby the rest of the family.
John/Jack Doocey/Hurley left Ireland I'm guessing sometime shortly after his mother passed away and settled in Hamilton, Scotland. He married there in 1902 and he is using the name Hurley and his parents are listed as Bartholomew Hurley and Mary Doocey on the marriage record. The same names are recorded on his death record in 1932. Maurice arrived sometime after that and first shows up there in his marriage registration to my great grandmother in 1908. Again, he now is using the name Hurley and lists his parents as Bartholomew Hurley and Mary Doocey.
I suspect that Hanna/Annie Hurley/Doocey married to Samuel Leech is Johanna Doocey born in 1879. This matches the age of Hanna Hurley in the 1901 census. There were 2 Johannas. The first was born and died in 1871. She would have been named after her grandmother on her mother's side.
Another child of Bartholomew Doocey and Mary Hurley was Bartholomew. He went to the States but kept the name Doocey. He died in New York in 1930.
From my grandfather's stories, I was told that the family was involved in the Irish revolution (possibly the IRB) so maybe this was the reason for the name change and fleeing to Scotland.
Mary Hurley's parents (wife of Bartholomew Doocey) were Michael Hurley and Johanna Condon. Through Family Tree DNA I've connected with several relatives through the Condon line so I'm pretty sure I have the right family.
Maurice Doocey/Hurley eventually moved to Canada and died there in 1962. If you come across my family tree on Ancestry.ca, I recorded both John and Maurice as being Hurleys even though both were born Dooceys.
I hope this helps clarify things.
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Hi Maurice Hurley is my grandfather's uncle.
Maurice's father was Bartholomew Hurley. Their mother was Mary Ducey they were from Waterford Ireland. They were farm labourers.
Maurice's brother was John Hurley.
John Hurley was born in 1879 he was a coal miner (he died 1932 Dennistoun Glasgow record in Scotlands people )
John Hurley (1879) married Rose Anne Mcauley. Hamilton. (marriage record is on Scotlands people)
Rose Anne Mcauley was born 1881 (died 1940) They married in 1902 in and had 11 children.
one of those children is my grandfather John Hurley.
I have a list of my grandfather's siblings, one also was named Bartholomew he was born in 1908. If anyone wants the names dates of birth of the siblings i can write them up.
They lived in Hamilton Scotland, and my grandfather also lived there till he passed. Many of the family still live there now.
Maurice Hurley did go to the USA. Where He was known as Maurice Hurley.
I will ask my uncle if he knows anything more about his uncle Maurice.
The story my grandfather tells is they were wanted men and had to flee Ireland due to the English oppression and starvation of the Irish people. My grandfather was always greatful they did this and they took refuge in Scotland.
They were staunch Catholics and republicans.
I notice you all have a different spelling of Ducey, my uncle spelled his great grandmothers name this way, Ducey.
I Haven't read all the thread, will start from the beginning now.
Edit :Well I've read the thread, Mary the wife of Bartholomew, from Waterford, her name was spelt Ducey.
Perhaps this threads info has different families mixed up? Probably best to Stick to the original spellings.
BTW Its almost impossible to trace Catholic family records before 1864 in Ireland, because they were stored in local parish records, and many were destroyed by the British, this was done to destroy records of the true heirs and owners of land and property.
physically going to Ireland and asking in the locality if there are any records left is really the only way.
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The story my grandfather tells is they were wanted men and had to flee Ireland due to the English oppression and starvation of the Irish people. My grandfather was always greatful they did this and they took refuge in Scotland.
They were staunch Catholics and republicans.
I notice you all have a different spelling of Ducey, my uncle spelled his great grandmothers name this way, Ducey.
Edit :Well I've read the thread, Mary the wife of Bartholomew, from Waterford, her name was spelt Ducey.
Perhaps this threads info has different families mixed up? Probably best to Stick to the original spellings.
BTW Its almost impossible to trace Catholic family records before 1864 in Ireland, because they were stored in local parish records, and many were destroyed by the British, this was done to destroy records of the true heirs and owners of land and property.
physically going to Ireland and asking in the locality if there are any records left is really the only way.
A few points need corrected. Firstly, spelling was very fluid and variations are common and perfectly acceptable, especially when quoting records.
It certainly is possible to trace Catholic families in Ireland before 1864- really just depend on what records survive but I don't think you can blame 'the British' for the loss of early records (except for pre-1901 census). There are R.C. parish registers pre-1864 which survive and many are online which bring up the next point-
It's probably never been easier to trace Irish ancestors than it is now and this doesn't mean having to travel to Ireland. More and more records have come online in the last few years and the majority are free- 1901/1911 census (and surviving bits of earlier ones, vital records, R.C. parish registers- scans of the original records not just a transcription- and many more).
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Looool and yet here we are.. 11 pages of ppl Struggling to find our family records, pre 1864 for a Catholic (Catholic being the issue) family, who were fighting the British, and trying to clutch at straws like wrong spellings and attaching the wrong families. knowledge of local history is important.
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Looool and yet here we are.. 11 pages of ppl Struggling to find our family records, pre 1864 for a Catholic (Catholic being the issue) family, who were fighting the British, and trying to clutch at straws like wrong spellings and attaching the wrong families. knowledge of local history is important.
You seem to have a very one-sided view of history and local records. Catholics were not the only group of people treated unfairly in the past. All denominations have problems finding church records. Even though the Church of Ireland was the Established/State church their records have probably suffered the greatest losses due to the burning of records during the Irish Civil War.
There are many threads here on Rootschat alone with far more than 11 pages of people trying to find records of their family in Ireland (and not just Ireland, other countries and periods pose similar difficulties). Some are successful and some are not. Just depends on how much information is available and how it can be found.
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I agree with aghadowey's remarks replies #91 & #93.
Btw, aghadowey and Sinann, another contributor to this thread, have long experience of Irish family research, not just their own families, but also many others, of various religions and backgrounds around Ireland.
Some reasons why this thread is long are:
It wasn't straightforward from the start - 2 surnames + uncertainty whether records were of 1 family or 2.
Long lists of children (13 in one) with links to sources for each one.
Frequent assessments, reassessments & comparisons of info, questions posed & answered/not answered.
Brigidmac and Sinann, 2 of the main contributors to the thread, are RootsChat volunteers, not connected to the family being researched and so were starting from base.
If it was simple, people wouldn't come to RootsChat for help.
Expanding on some points by aghadowwey:
Irish records:
I recommend Irish Genealogy Toolkit as a guide and overview.
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com
The introduction begins:
"Irish genealogy gained a reputation long ago for being a frustrating one-way-street to disappointment
and headache.
Thankfully, calming potions and analgesics are no longer essential equipment for the amateur
genealogist because family history in Ireland has entered a golden era.
More and more records - many of them free - are now available online and offline."
Info about church records is under Genealogy tab .
Catholic registers at National Library of Ireland
https://registers.nli.ie/about
My paternal ancestry is R.C. farmers and shopkeepers in Mayo. I got the one-sided view in childhood. Then I studied history, learned how to assess information and sources, to understand differences between factual accounts and opinion, to recognise propaganda, question myths, consider motives of all actors. Result was a few lively discussions with dad & uncles. As a young adult I moved to W. Scotland and witnessed prejudice and polarisation. Late in life, I took up family history, found a few surprises. Our understanding of history shouldn't be set in stone, we sometimes need to reassess it.
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its great to see this thread revived by some descendants of the people concerned , hopefully there will be some new information and connections now .