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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: scouser1066 on Thursday 12 January 17 16:46 GMT (UK)
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Hello, I am very pleased to find Rootschat! I am researching my father's early life. His name was Harold (or Harry) Ormianer, born in 1901 in Liverpool. I have got a lot of the usual stuff but I am looking for help with:
1. His life as a musician in 1920s/1930s in the following bands/orchestras - Mirabile Band, Embassy Bohemian Band, Jack Leight's Band. I suspect they are all Liverpool-based. He also played violin on the Elder Dempster ships 'Adda' and Apapa'.
2. Origin of surname - Family (Abraham, Hannah, Samuel and Fanny ORMIANER) came to England circa 1890s and ended up in Liverpool. They were a Jewish family and Abraham became a journeyman glazier.
My research so far suggests their early roots were Armenian and they came from Krakow area.
Any help would be much appreciated!
Thanks
Mike Ormian
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Welcome to Rootschat, Mike :)
You say you have "a lot of the usual stuff" but you don't say quite what you have - including census info etc, which is likely to be relevant to your question 2.
Is this the family in 1901?
28 Wellington Rd, Wavertree, Liverpool
RG13/3505/67/22
A Ormianer Head Mar 37 Glazier Austria (Abraham)
H Ormianer Wife Mar 32 Austria (Hannah/Annie)
S Ormianer Son 13 Austria (Samuel)
F Ormianer Daur 11 Austria (Fannie/Frances)
? Ormianer Daur 7 Liverpool (poss Gesela Ormianer b Jun qtr 1894 mmn BRAF - later Gertie/Gertrude)
D Ormianer Son 4 Liverpool (David Ormianer b Dec qtr 1896 mmn BRAFF)
H Ormianer Daur 1 Liverpool (Borana Ormaner b Jun qtr 1899 mmn BRAF - later Ella)
Later births:
Harry Ormiana, Dec qtr 1901 West Derby mmn BRATH
Solomon Ormiana, Dec qtr 1904 West Derby mmn BRAFFE
Rosa Ormeaner, Sep qtr 1907 West Derby mmn BRAF
Birthplace of the older family members again stated as Austria in 1911 free Familysearch index (indexed as Ornianan).
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Welcome to Rootschat
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Aormianer~
Heather
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Hi,
Welcome to Rootschat.
Name changed to Ormian in later days.
There is a Merchant seaman card for
Harold Ormian born 1903 Liverpool
R16090
Hard to read but looks like first steward and musician
Think its dated 1926
There is a note that looks like "Adda"
Year of birth a bit wrong though.
Cathy
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Some info on the ship in newspapers and merchant card on FindMyPast
There is free access to Findmypast at the moment.
Cathy
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https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0iwVspsJJ6oC
Search inside for "embassy" - there's a brief mention of the Bohemians and the Embassy Rooms (previously Wellington).
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Thanks to everybody that responded - some really useful stuff!
The picture is of the Embassy Bohemians in full swing - my father is the violinist.
Thoughts on the origins of the surname would be much appreciated too.
Mike
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In order to help you develop your research on the family's deep origins, Rootschatters will need to know what evidence you already have on that. The censuses show the immigrant family members as born in Austria. What evidence have you found for links to Krakow and on to Armenia?
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What I know about my family origins:
Family knowledge is that my grandparents came from Krakow area and were possibly innkeepers. They were certainly devoutly Jewish and came to England but are not on 1891 census but are on 1901 census.
They arrived with two small children and ended up in Liverpool -it is thought they were victims of a scam and were diddled out of tickets to America.
ORMIANER surname suggests an Armenian origin, as an Armenian in the Polish language is Ormianin. It is thought that an 'ER suffix appeared when, in 1787, Jews had to have 'specific family names' which were often chosen for them by civil servants (source): Nelly Weiss: Origin of Jewish Family Names 2002)
There are quite a number of ORMIANER names that come up during my searches but I have never been able to make a direct link to any of them.
I realise it's very little to go on but there may be a Rootschatter out there that has come across a similar situation.
Thanks
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According to the 1911 census, Abraham, Hannah, Samuel and Hannah were all Austrian citizens born in Austria. Abraham and Hannah had married 23 years previously, so around 1888, presumably in Austria. Are there any naturalisation records for them?
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Hello Decor
Oh whoops - how could I miss the obvious! Presumably the National Archives is the place to start or are there other searchable sources?
Thanks
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The national archives has online indexes but I couldn't find anything myself unfortunately.
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I think i've found something good.
It seems Hannah (or Annie) and Samuel (and his wife Jennie) were interned during WWII because they were Austrian citizens in Britian.
The records are on Findmypast.co.uk
Give me a moment to check them out in detail.
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Samuel Ormiana born 27 Jan 1888 in Tarnow, Galicia
Occupation: Printer
Address: 49 Kenmare Road, Liverpool
Nationality: Austrian
Release date: 29.10.1940
Jennie Ormiana born 25 March 1894 in Manchester
Address: 49 Kenmare Road, Liverpool
Nationality: Austrian
Occupation: Household duties
Annie Ormiana born 29 June 1868 in Tarnov, Galicia
Austrian citizen
Address: 385 Smithdown Road, Liverpool
Decision not to be interned
So Tarnów Poland seems to be where Hannah was from at least.
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Oh those are good finds!
Tarnov/Tarnow is a relatively short distance from Krakow (only about 90km by the looks of it).
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Annie Ormiana b 1868 address 385 SMITHDOWN ROAD - NOT INTERNED ....she would be around 72 yrs old - this is possibly Sefton General Hospital ,Smithdown Road ...so she was possibly ill or in the Mentally ill section ..check out the address of Sefton General Hospital - the majority of Smithdown Road is shops / the hospital / Toxteth Cemetery
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Hi
I was looking at a post of your, and there is a jack Leights jazz band, I have been searching fo many years as he was my grand father, do you have any information on this band
Many thank
Isabel
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Isabel Smart is looking for Jack Leights Jazzband, in which my father was a violinist. I have a photo of the band but am not techsavvy, so don't know how to get it to Isabel. Can I leave my email address for a direct contact?
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Re. my last message - I think I have cracked it! Attached is a picture of the Jack Leight Band with my dad as violinist.
Hope it works!
Mike
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Re. my last message - I think I have cracked it! Attached is a picture of the Jack Leight Band with my dad as violinist.
Hope it works!
Mike
Blimey how great is that pic, think my grandfather is the one with saxophone, I also have a pic of band, but a bit blurred my grandmother was also in band and on pic, she's playing saxophone, I will try and up load it
Thank u so much
Regards isabel
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Re. my last message - I think I have cracked it! Attached is a picture of the Jack Leight Band with my dad as violinist.
Hope it works!
Mike
Blimey how great is that pic, think my grandfather is the one with saxophone, I also have a pic of band, but a bit blurred my grandmother was also in band and on pic, she's playing saxophone, I will try and up load it
Thank u so much
Regards isabel
hiRe. my last message - I think I have cracked it! Attached is a picture of the Jack Leight Band with my dad as violinist.
Hope it works!
Mike
[hi the pic you put up of band has disappeared, where can I find it
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Re. my last message - I think I have cracked it! Attached is a picture of the Jack Leight Band with my dad as violinist.
Hope it works!
Mike
sorry found it now, also the two other men are my grandad brothers
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Re. my last message - I think I have cracked it! Attached is a picture of the Jack Leight Band with my dad as violinist.
Hope it works!
Mike
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Hi jack Leight was my grandfather it was his jazz band with his 2 brother jimmy and Tony and his wife Ann played sax in the band