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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Bearcub on Saturday 14 January 17 21:01 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I'm wondering if anyone might have any ideas that could help me with my 'brick wall'?....
My Great Grandmother Sarah Adams was born on 6 December 1879 in Clerkenwell / St. Pancras. I have never been able to find her birth record, but know the year from the 1881 census and the date from a personal letter that she sent my mum in 1964 (following the birth of my brother) where she said she had just celebrated her birthday on 6 December.
I had a bit of a breakthrough recently, when I finally found her baptism record - she was baptised on 4 January 1880 at St Peter's, Regent Square, St, Pancras. Parents are John Adams (Coach Painter) and Sarah and their address was 11 Wellington Square.
I have found the 1881 census for her with her parents and siblings at Leigh St, St.Pancras:
John Adams (Coach Painter), age 45 - born Bristol, Gloucester;
Sarah Adams (wife), age 34 - born Clerkenwell, Middlesex
John, age 15
Elizabeth, age 12
Thomas, age 9
Henry, age 3
Sarah, age 1 (my GGran)
(All the children also born Clerkenwell, Middlesex)
I cannot find an 1891 or 1901 census for any of them.....
I know Sarah married Herbert Walter Brittin on 31 August 1902 at St. Mary's, Somers Town. Her father John Adams (Coach Painter) is stated to be deceased, Witnesses include John William Adams and Jane Adams. (I have the certificate).
Sarah then appears on the 1911 census with Herbert and her own children.
But where were they in 1891 and 1901? Assuming her dad John could have already died by 1901, I have tried to find mother Sarah as a widow and her siblings, but can't find any obvious matches.
I also can not find any trace of Father John and Mother Sarah on the censuses before my Sarah was born. As all the children are stated as being born in Clerkenwell, I should have thought I would find them in 1871 at least?
Really struggling as to where to go next. Any suggestions?
Many thanks
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Most likely would eb that Sarah remarried and they're enumerated under her new surname
Have, however, found this which may help the hunt
John William Adams, 27, post officer sorter - father John william Adams, carriage painter (deceased)
Alice Elizabeth Brittin, 24 - father Edward Brittin, harness maker (deceased)
Marriage 27 Oct 1895, St Saviour, St Pancras
Address 173 Drummond St, witness Herbert Brittin and Lily Wood
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Thank you for your reply.
I thought that sounded familiar so rechecked my notes and realised that I had Alice Brittin's marriage to John William Adams in my Brittin file, but hadn't cross referenced. Many thanks - I'll do that now.
I guess if I could find his birth record that may help me with Sarah's maiden name?
(Fairly inexperienced at all this...)
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John and ALice are in Somers Town in 1901, and appear to be in the same neck of the wood as Herbert & Sarah in 1911. that gives a very different place of birth for John!
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There's a Sarah Adams aged 9 on the 1891 census in the St Pancras School, Leavesdon, Hertfordshire.
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Sarah Anne Adams b Q4 1879 Mile End Vol 1c p589 looks a possibility for the birth registration and the GRO index gives the mmn as Robertson.
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Many thanks for your suggestions - much appreciated.
Sc00p - I think I have previously dismissed that birth record, but can't for the life of me work out why.... I can't see that I have ordered the certificate, so think that's my next step. Thank you.
Mabel - I cannot find any of the census records you refer to? Can't understand why - how/where are you searching? I did find a John and Alice in 1911, but they had only been married 1.5 years, so didn't think that could be them?
The Pancras school suggestion though, started making me think and I have been searching the workhouse records. Success!
I have now found John (Father), Sarah (Mother) with children John, Elizabeth and Thomas admitted to Holborn workhouse on 20 Nov 1877. The children were discharged "to Mitcham" in December that same year. John and Sarah were discharged on 28 Feb 1878 at their "own request". I think that the Mitcham reference is to the Mitcham Industrial school, but I'm struggling to search on-line records for that.
I then found several other admissions for Sarah (Mother) - she was admitted:
(in labour) on 12 July 1868 and John was born in the Holborn workhouse. (Both discharge 2 Aug)
on 23 May 1872 and Thomas was born in the Holborn workhouse (both discharged 1 Jun 1872)
on 17 Aug 1874 and an Eliza was born (not that I have an Eliza in any other records) - both discharged 5 Sept 1874.
So - knowing John (son) and Thomas (son) birth dates, I again turned to the birth registers, but still can't find them!
I have, however, found (I think) a baptism record for John - Saint Phillip's, Clerkenwell 23 Sept 1869 (although it says born 12 Jan, which doesn't tie up with workhouse record....- occupation of father John is correct though).
Aaaagh - I seem to get so close, but still can't find the official birth records for any of the children, so no closer to getting Sarah (Mother) maiden name...
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I think the issue may be John's age on later censuses - he claims to be a little younger than on 1881 (but roughly consistent with his marriage) ie. bc1868-69
1901 - 58 Polygon Building, block D
John W Adams 32 - postman, b Clerkenwell
Alice Adams 29 - b Pancras
John I Adams 1 - b Pancras
RG13, 145, 113, 30
As I said, in 1911 they're living in the same town as Herbert and Sarah - John jnr I think may have died.
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Thanks again Mabel,
Actually that DOB is more consistent with the workhouse birth and baptism I have found so that looks likely.
I have now found quite a few other baptisms for John and Sarah's children, but sadly still none of the actually birth records that I could order certificates for.
Andrea
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Could this be them in 1891?
Sarah Adams widow 47 1844 Clerkenwell
Thomas 18 1873 Clerkenwell
William 6 St pancras
St Giles London
RG 12
Piece no 208
Folio 11
Page 16
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Thomas James Adams 1872 Q2 Shoreditch Vol 1c p106 mmn WEST
John William Adams 1868 Q3 Shoreditch vol 1c p97 mmn WEST
Eliza Adams 1874 Q4 Holborn vol 1b p662 mmn WEST
3 possibles for the workhouse births?
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Thank you - it could well be! The date and place of birth is right and the DOB for son Thomas is about right too. I might have expected some other children, but some may have died and the ones that I know were living, could have been living elsewhere (workhouse/Industrial school).
Thank you
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Oooh, thank you Sc00p! They do indeed look promising.... Same mmn seems a bit too much of a coincidence!
Were they from GRO search?
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If Sarah was nee West, then this GRO Ref from Dec 1879 Qtr might be a possibility.
Female WEST Holborn 1b 726
Long shot and thinking outside the box, I know.
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Outside the box is very welcome at the moment - thank you.
I've been trying to find a marriage between a Sarah West and a John Adams, but no joy... guess I'm going to have to order one of the birth certs to see...
I've also now realised that not only did my Herbert Brittin marry my Sarah Adams (my great grand parents) and Alice Brittin (Herbert's sister) married John William Adams (Sarah's brother) another of Herbert and Alice's brother (Edward Charles) also married an Elizabeth Adams!
I thought this might be the Elizabeth Adams from 1881 census (Sarah and John's sister), but the fathers name is different (Thomas Adams).
I'm now worried I might be merging two families....
Either way, my Brittins and Adams seem ridiculously interlinked!
Gah - I think I need another break from this family - they're a nightmare!
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I'm not convinced either way. Elizabeth is transcribed as 30 by ancestry on 1891, but is actually 20, so might just fit
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Thanks again Mabel.
Yes the age works, but I have a copy of Edward's and Elizabeth's marriage record (parish record) and this Elizabeth definitely gives her father as Thomas Adams (and not my John).
It is peculiar though, because later on in 1901, I have a Jane Adams living with Edward and Elizabeth as a 'sister in law' and I thought she was my Elizabeth's sister? I had a Jane Adams as a witness and Herbert and Sarah's wedding). Perhaps not, perhaps the Thomas Adams with a daughter Elizabeth also had a daughter Jane about the same time. As I mentioned, I'm worried I might be merging two families....
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As an aside, Sarah's 1880 baptism gives a different date of birth, November 4th 1879, can't post a snippet as this is on the look-up request board.
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Yes - I noticed that too.. (in the "who performed the ceremony" column?). That bothers me a bit, but I have quite a few other baptisms which give a date of birth that aren't quite right too, so wasn't overly worried. All of the other details seem consistent - and I guess its possible that I have the 6th December date wrong too. Just hoping the Mile End cert is the right one now....
Thanks
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There is a possible death Dec 1/4 1887 of John Adams aged 51 in Pancras district.
There's a corresponding 'parish' burial 11th October at St Pancras Cemetery of John Adams, aged 51, who died at Highgate Infirmary, Pancras.
Ties up with the family having little or no money but no occupation is shown.
However, according to the Pancras Board of Guardians children at Leavesden records 2 supposed sons, Thomas & Alfred Adams or Simmonds, mother Emma so you may be able to rule that death out.
Moving on to Sarah and Jane though, they are on the same register. It isn't transcribed so a case of scrolling through on Ancestry
London, England, Poor Law and Board of Guardian Records, 1430-1930
select Camden
select St Pancras
select Register of Children
Leavesden School: register of children received from the Guardianīs office, 1880-1894
page 9 of 325
Sarah born 1880 was admitthed 4 April 1889, having been sent to Rottingdean Workhouse 6 Apr 1888, discharged 26 Aug 1892 back to her mother, Sarah Adams a widow.
Jane born 1879 was admitted 14 Jan 1892 from Rottingdean. She was also discarged to her mother 26 Aug 1892.
Several crossed out addresses leaving 33 Drummond ?
The Boards of Guardians were very good at charging other Boards for people that weren't of their parish so I wonder how Rottingdean fits in? Whether the mother was from there or did the Board of Guardians have an understanding for the children to be sent there?
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Thank you so much. I'm a little overwhelmed that you've searched and found that for me. I'm very grateful.
I had attempted to go through the poor law records, but found it really difficult to see what I was looking at. Now that you've laid it out for me, I see how you searched, but I think I would have been here until Christmas trying to work that out! I struggled, even when I had your search criteria, but it makes so much more sense now! Someone had mentioned the Pancras Leavendon School before, but I hadn't realised there was a drop down menu to select the Register of children! Doh!
I'm quite excited by this - that is definitely them (or at least definitely all the same family I have been following!) - the crossed out addresses are all ones I recognise from other documents. I had thought that Jane was younger than Sarah, but only because she was baptised later. I wonder why she wasn't baptised at the same time as Sarah?
I haven't a clue about the Rottingdean link - but something else for my task list!
Previously, when I was looking at my Family History stuff, I was just charging through trying to find the next direct link. This is the first time that I've started really looking at their lives. Its so much more interesting... and sad... I always scoffed at the celebs on "Who do you think you are?" getting emotional over ancestors they never knew, but I found it quite heartbreaking reading some of the notes on these children's records.
Thanks once again - you've helped so much.
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Oh, meant to say thanks about the possible death record too. I've just read what you found about the father dying in the Infirmary (and mother Emma). I'm sure I would never have spotted that and made the link!
I think I have a lot to learn! :-[
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Hi Bearcub
It makes doing your family tree far more rewarding when you can put a story to the names in your trees. Without these snippets, the tree is just a piece of paper with loads of names.
But these names have a story albeit one that we may rather not think about, some of them suffered terrible hardships and didn't have the state help we have today with a health service and benefits.
Datasets are going online all the time and the ones that are there may have a lot of useful information if you are prepared to look at them and work through what you are looking at.
As 2 of the children turn up in the poor law records, it wouldn't surprise me if there weren't others.
It may help having a look at the catalogue of the Board Of Guardians records on the LMA website to see what else is available either online or at the LMA.
If you go here
https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/things-to-do/london-metropolitan-archives/Pages/search.aspx
and click on the link for the catalogue the simple search term you need is Saint Pancras Board of Guardians, the reference code is STPBG
Click on the result and then go to the catalogue link which is at the top right of the screen and have a look at the PDF. A lot of it will be irrelevant.
The death record I posted for John Adams shows how it may be possible to rule out entries in the death index by using other online sources, thereby saving you the cost of a useless certificate.
Unfortunately the name John Adams turns up quite frequently.
If John Adams died in the Pancras Workhouse system, then it may be possible to find other possible burial entries at www.deceasedonline.com as they have indexed some of the records for this London Borough.
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Thanks again. I totally agree with you.
I had already found an earlier Workhouse entry (in 1877) for Father John, Mother Sarah and children John, Elizabeth and Thomas. Whilst John and Sarah were discharged at their 'own request' in 1878, the children say 'to Mitcham' which I believe was also an Industrial school? Trying to find records for there next....
It would appear they spent a lot of the time in the Workhouse and I have been reading lots about where they would have been and what they would have been living like - very sad.
I think a visit to the LMA may be needed, but want to try and find out as much as I can on-line first, so your links are very helpful.
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go back to the LMA catalogue and search for south metropolitan school district, the reference is SMSD, look at the catalogue pdf and also here
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/SouthMetSD/
There are also Mitcham records in the Holborn Board of Guardian records, the ref code is HOBG
have you searched through the indexed workhouse records on Ancestry?
also try here, these are more browseable images
London, England, Poor Law and Board of Guardian Records, 1430-1930
Holborn
Register of Children
Mitcham School: Register of children, 1873-1905
and the LMA has this useful leaflet
https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/things-to-do/london-metropolitan-archives/visitor-information/Documents/04-poor-law-records-in-london-and-elsewhere.pdf