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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: maddys52 on Sunday 15 January 17 05:11 GMT (UK)
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Is any one able to guess what this lady's surname is? It appears on the will of Raphael Joshua JOSEPH in 1885, an adopted daughter I had no idea existed, so would love to try to track her down. There's 2 versions on the will.
many thanks in advance
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The resolution of the image snips is a bit low, it doesn't zoom up clearly and allow good comparisons of letter forms etc - but it looks to me as if the surname has an 'i' in it, and possibly ends in '-stein'.
My immediate impression is 'Clustein' ???
What place (country) did Raphel die and where is the will from?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Thanks for your interest AMBLY, Raphael died in Sydney, NSW in 1885. I found the will using the free weekend on findmypast yesterday and have been puzzling over it. Agree, it probably ends in 'stein'.
I'll try to get a better scan and post it here. :)
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Try this one ...
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;D that's great - and definitely looks like Clustein to me?
Does the full context of the references to her indicate where she might be located? For example If he's leaving her property estate, where is that estate?
Was he normally domiciled in Australia, or did he just happen to be there when he died.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Looking at the rest of the will, especially the word chattels it looks like a tt in the middle or the surname not st. S`s are quite rounded throughout. So my thought is Cluttein.
Mo
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My thought too Mo.
Wiggy.
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Wondering, looking at the "r"'s in Herbert underneath, whether this ends in "e r n" rather than "e i n"?
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Ah yes, agree I see the Cluttein now too, Mo!
Regards the ending -ein or -ern, I might have though so too, except in the first two images posted - her name was written twice - it definitely looks to me as if there is the dot of the 'i' deliberately written (as opposed to a random mark of the pen) and located quite a bit right of the stroke of the 'i'. The writer tends to often do that I think, when looking at clip2 where it is written 'give' and twentieth'?
In asking where Agnes might have lived (eg: where Raphael normally did, where his real estate property was if the had any) - I thought it might establish where her name might have come from?
I wonder, if there is a K instead of a C, for example Kluttein?
Cheers
AMBLY
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It could be Cluttem - which was my first thought - and is a name I've come across before.
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Could it be Chiltern.
Carol
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Could it be Chiltern.
Carol
I was about to suggest that too, I kept going back to the image and saw that there was no pattern to the dot of the 'i' except that it was always well after where we would normally expect it, so moving the 'i' forward gives a reasonably good Chiltern.
Colin
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Thank you to everyone for your suggestions. :)
Carol - that's a great thought that it may be a "Ch" at the beginning.
AMBLY - Raphael was born in England, lived for a time in Cape Town, then Australia from the 1850s: Victoria, Queensland and finally NSW. He left everything to his son Joshua (Qld) except $50 to Agnes "my adopted daughter for her care and kindness in nursing me through various severe illnesses". She also got the goods and chattels at his residence Enmore Rd, Newtown. There's a codicil to the will where he changes it to $100. That's a good idea to follow up the address - even though she didn't inherit it, she may appear on later electoral rolls, though women didn't have the vote until 1902.
Thank again everyone, lot's to follow up on.
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Hello -
I would read it as Chiltern too.
craggagh.
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Thanks craggagh, at least Chiltern is a recognisable name!
No luck finding an Agnes (maybe) Chiltern yet, but just thought I'd share with you all (my family all roll their eyes when I start talking), in researching the executor and "dear friend" named on the will, I discovered he was the son of the ex business partner of Raphael's father in England. Love it when you find connections you weren't expecting ;D
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Many many thanks to the wonderful Rosball who photographed the probate package for Raphael for me. In it was Agnes' own signature, and it looks like CHITTEM or CHITTERN. And there was an Agnes CHITTEM who married John MCINDOE in Darlinghurst, Sydney in 1886. I've found out quite a bit about this Agnes - everything except a connection Raphael JOSEPH. ::) , but I'm still hopeful something will turn up.
Thanks again for everyone's input. :)