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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (East Riding & York) => Topic started by: Moonstar36 on Tuesday 17 January 17 15:53 GMT (UK)
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Palfreymans are great..so many spellings!
So am needing help. Not due just to spelling though!
I have a George Palfreyman (spelt on his marriage cert as that) but on Ancestry as Palfreeman. He married a Mary Pratt in 1850..who later married a Christopher Kemp.
Now George is the problem. We think he might belong to a family where his father James (on Marr cert shows as farmer) and is married to a Sarah. But..which Sarah. I can find a son of James and Sarah....but no surname. There is a James (we think born 1776) and Sarah (we think born 1780) who had several children in Long Marston but all state Plumer as her surname. There is a James and Sarah (no surname who have three children William, Ann and George I can find on census but still no surname for Sarah and as no other children mentioned cannot confirm if this family is same as James and Sarah Plummer.
We think it might be possible that one of Sarah P and James daughters could have had a child and maybe they took it on as their own. George is born quite late for this family we have a possible date (from marr cert as 1826. hes in Stockton on forest at this point) as Mary remarried assuming its our George is right one...we think this George may have died youngish and a date of 1855 for that.
This is my George and we are trying to establish if he belongs to this family or a whole different one!
Does that make sense ??
I checked Ancestry for Sarah born in Long Marston around 1780 ten years either side and managed to find most Sarah's married to someone else..some we couldn't find any further record as too little to decide which one might be which.
Have searched for James in similar way and also George..there are a couple of others George 1830 who we don't think is ours as born in Goldsborough and another in 1826 who we think dies in 1876 and if only the one died as result of his work as a miner.
It' ;Ds the marr cert that gives us the basis of George and his father but not enough at present to find them both and Mum Sarah... and confirm siblings
Can anyone help please? ;D :)
THANK YOU!!
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George is born quite late for this family we have a possible date (from marr cert as 1826. hes in Stockton on forest at this point)
You haven't said what birthplace George gives on the 1851 census??
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HI Apologies... the one I found was 1841 for James and Sarah with three children in Marston but James birthdate here is abt 1781... and no George mentioned... this as the family I wondered if he might belong to as I wonder if its different from the other James and Sarah as these children Baptisms show a Sarah with no surname...there were several James and Sarahs seemingly in this particular area along with a great many Palfreeman however the spelling is.
The only census I found for George was 1841 with him being in Bilton which is nearby..and a Mary Norton is Head but dob matches closest.
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When did George marry Mary Pratt? you say 1850, but also mention a marriage of his in 1826?
If his father is James, a farmer, from marriage cert that means marriage was after 1837 - so therefore 1850 is the correct one?
I think it is best if we go back a stage - is it from one of George and Mary's children you are descended from? Who was this , are when and where was he/she born? Have you got him/her on the censuses - with George at all?
IF George and Mary's marriage was 1850 - have you got the on 1851 census? You mention Mary remarrying - when and where did George die? If he died after 1851 then getting him on that census is vital to see where he was born. You cant think about going back any further till that is established.
Modified to add: Here is the marriage
Oct/Nov/Dec 1850
York
23 891
George Palfreyman / Mary PRatt
Is this his death?
Jul/Aug/Sep 1855
York
9d 34
George Palfreyman
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The 1855 death is for George Palfreeman as per the GRO online search and www.yorkshirebmd.org.uk
GRO shows age as 30 at death
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1851 transcribed as Palfreyam - born Sheffield 1824. If this is the right couple they were in Sheffield in 1851 whereas 1855 death was registered in York
HO107 Piece 2339 Folio 575 Page 44
EDIT 19.30pm 17/1 - IGNORE - just found this couple in 1861 so not the right 1851 entry
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Well found Carol.
But it doesn't fit well with a York marriage and a York death. The occupation of the Sheffield one is a Brittania Metal Smith, which fits with being in Sheffield - cutlery makers galore there.
If your one married 1850 and died 1855, then presumably your ancestor was born between those dates.
Also - when did Mary remarry to Kemp? And where? (York? Sheffield? elsewhere?)
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The Kemp marriage was 1859 in York
Freebmd have her as Mary Pralfreeman and so do YorkshireBMD??
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No Palfreyman children on the 1861 entry.
Christopher Kemp 33 b Grimston
Mary 28 b York
Elizabeth 1 b Stockton
RG9 Piece 3544 Folio 81 Page 19
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1861
Pilgrim Street York
Christopher Kemp 33 Gen lab bn Grimston
MAry 28 bn York
Elizabeth 1 bn Stockton
So, MAry bn York.
And no Palfreyman child.
Snap Carol!
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I have George baptised 26 Dec 1826 son of James Palfreyman and Sarah, surname unknown.
George marrying Mary Pratt 25 Nov 1850 and marriage cert to verify that. Mary's father Thomas and George's father James Palfreyman, farmer.
I don't have any back up for his death in 1855... his last child was 1855 and I am assuming rightly or wrongly that I probably got this detail from somewhere but no idea where!
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only census I found for George was 1841 and I didn't find one for 1851... sorry need to go back to your earlier now posts... but just answering the queries :)
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no marriage 1826..I referred to his marr cert as indicating his age to be that might be born in 1826
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Who was the child born 1855? And as you say "last" child, who were the previous ones!!!
They don't seem to be with Mary in 1861 (now Kemp)
Mary should be 18 in 1851 and newly wed. But it is proving elusive.
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his last child was 1855
Name and birthplace please
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1871 for the Kemps has a 19yr old Henry Palfreeman b Stockton on the Forest shown as "son"
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1861
Henry Scruton 23 b York
Ann D 21 (formerly Ann Doughty Pratt as per freebmd marriage) b Stockton
Thomas 6mths b Stockton
Henry Palfreeman 9 b Stockton - nephew
Ann Palfreeman 5 ditto - niece
RG9 Piece 3550 Folio 55 Page 25
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Coming together a bit now. Mary Pratt (age 8 ) was in Stockton on the forest in 1841 with her family, which did include sister Ann D, age 1. Who must be the Mrs Scruton age 21 in 1861!
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I have Mary Pratt marrying George as above and then she marries Christopher Kemp 23 March 1859 in York. Father shown as Thoms Pratt. So fairly certain its same Mary
George married Mary in parish church of Stockton.She was resident in Huntingdon. He was a labourer. Not a metal smith or miner.
Children of George are my ancestor Henry William Palfreeman born 1851 CRB 23 /734
Henry is then shown along with his sister on 1861 census as being with his Uncle Thomas Scruton and Aunt Ann D Scruton which indicates born in Stockton. I am not sure if Thomas is the relative or his Aunt Ann D.
Does that help?
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aaaahhh!!!! fabulous....
and yes Ann was his sister born in 1855.....
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have Mary Pratt marrying George as above and then she marries Christopher Kemp 23 March 1859 in York. Father shown as Thoms Pratt. So fairly certain its same Mary
Does the 1859 marriage cert for Christopher and Mary show her as a widow?
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One would expect them to be in Stockton in 1851, if that is where Henry was born later that year and where they had married the year before. But I just cant get the in 1851 at all.
With George dying before 1861 it is a real nuisance, as we have no idea where he was born - it could be anywhere in the world!
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Ann born 18455, bap 1 oct 1855 in Stockton on forest
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Forget that question re: marriage cert. Just found the entry on FS and her father was Thomas Pratt
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I know hes a real pain wasn't round long enough to get a hold of him!! we've been going round in circles...I did wonder if he had come from elsewhere and the nearest was Long Marston with so many Sarah's and James there. We don't think they came from elsewhere but I am not assuming that as I know what the word assume can do! :)
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I don't have a marr cert for her marriage to Christopher..only that same name father and her being Mary Palfreeman and other members of family on Kemp side seem to be adamant that she was a widow.
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I have just been through page by page the images of Stockton on the forest for 1851, and there is nothing there that could be them that I can see. The enumerator has quite neat writing compared with many, so misindexing not so likely anyway.
So - seems either they were there somewhere but got missed off the census, or they were somewhere else (and also got missed off the census, as we cant seem to get them!)
Have you got Henry's birth cert or baptism? Does it give any more detailed address other than Stockton on the forest?
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I've searched the 1851 for them as Pratt in case they were with Mary's family but zilch.
FS have Henry & Ann's baptisms
Henry William Palfryman Christening Date 11 Jan 1852 STOCKTON-ON-THE-FOREST,YORK,ENGLAND
Father George Palfryman
Mother Mary
Ann Palfreeman Christening Date 01 Oct 1855 Christening Place STOCKTON-ON-THE-FOREST,YORK,ENGLAND
Father George Palfreeman
Mother Mary
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The 1851 has a missing piece 2332 Parish: Broadroyd Head but I don't know whether that would affect why we can't find them in 1851
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/census-for-england-wales-and-scotland-missing-pieces
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Have just found the UK POll BOoks and electoral registers which shows a George Palfreyman Stockton labourer present in York in 1852.
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re Henry's details ..no I havent but if you think it will help will order them... :)
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Have been on FS and much clearer on their site being able to see all the James and Sarah P children.
Thought this might help visually to see if it can help in anyway?
James Palfreman is spelt with two e's and one e and it doesn't conform with one set of children to another.
However, the Long Marston James and Sarah Plumer (one or two m's)
had the following:
Mary 1802
John 1804
James 1807
Michael 1809
Ann 1810
Hannah 1812
Elizabeth 1817
William 1820
James and Sarah (no surname)
Holy Trinity Address
Michael 1816
Sarah 1818
Ellen 1820
Elizabeth 1822
James 1824
James and sarah (no surname )
Long Marston
George 1826
The other George born in Knaresborough I believe is the silversmith and thus not my George
Thus in terms of James and Sarah are there three families or two??
Could mine have moved to Long Marston?? and had George as the dates would follow on from their children
The James and Sarah Plummer seem to be a long time from last child to George some nine years?
Thus is it possible this is a second family in Long Marston..but seems strange only one child...or as someone ahs suggested could one of the daughters in Long Marston have fallen pregnant and George was christened under James and Sarah to save face??
Or am I clasping at straws and should I simply admit defeat and get a copy of any of the records for George and James and Henry to see if anything else surfaces..
Thank you so much for helping as you have - I have learnt a few things...
:) :)
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1841 entries for the various spellings of the surname
George Palfreeman aged 16 living in Bilbrough - not with parents
George Palframan aged 15 living in Birkin - mother Ruth (no father shown)
Our Sheffield George is with parents Thomas & Mary
George Palfreeman aged 15 living in Bilton - not with parents
So cannot link any of the entries to James & Sarah for confirmation purposes
No baptism on Family Search
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Hello
Burial for George Palfreeman 1st October 1855 aged 28 birth year 1827 Stockton on the frorest.
Lee
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His age at burial (28) is 2yrs younger than the age on his death cert (30)
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Hello
There is a Geo Palferman born 1823 at Holtby on the 1841 census. He is with John Freeman and family.
Lee
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Hello
Burial for George Palfreeman 1st October 1855 aged 28 birth year 1827 Stockton on the frorest.
Lee
This details usggest that George not born 1826 but 1827.... which may influence which George...
re fathers name and who is he is with in census..fathers name definitely James...(as per his marr cert)
George in York in 1852
So will search for Georges 1827..and will order Henry b/c to see what that says about any location.. in case we have him born before 1851 census...
thank you folks.... he is proving a tad difficult! but until we can identify him I cant go further and link with any other families... or confirm family I have linked to... :) :)
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Have ordered henry's birth certificate.
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HI
I have Henry's b/c and it shows 16 November 1851 Stockton on Forest in Sub District of Dunnington County of York.
Parents George Palfreeman and Mary formelry Pratt. He is a labourer.
Does that mean I should be on the East Riding section?
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thanks :)
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hello??
is there anywhere else I should go look please??? :)