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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Moray (Elginshire) => Topic started by: Mitch1957 on Wednesday 18 January 17 23:07 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone..I am a direct descendant of James Mitchell born 1609..( Mark Anthony Mitchell born 1957 from Tasmania, Australia)
I have his birth certificate stating his father, James Mitchell..needing to find out if his mother was Jonet ?my one lead is James Mitchell born 1584 from Dunfermline... married to Jonet mitchell ( could be nee Crawfurd or Lawsone etc from Pencaitland or Stirling) in Pencaitland Jan 1609..they would of travelled to Elgin from Pencaitland arriving in time for James birth 27th June 1609..I do have parish baptism copies..any help would be grateful..cheers to all
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I am sorry that I am going to sound like a wet blanket, but can you actually prove the relationships for every successive generation back to 1609 using evidence other than the registers of baptisms and marriages?
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Hi Forfarian..Nice to hear from you again..attached is my brief of mitchell's I have been researching..I am basing all by ancestry sites other than my father, grandfather and great granfather..I have all Baptism records purchased from "Scotlands people" web site from 1564 till myself in 1957..
I know nothing is 100 percent.. thats why I am asking questions..see attached
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I second Forfarian's comment. It would be a shame to expend a great deal of effort tracing unrelated families. Being able to trace a family that far back in Scotland is usually the result of their having owned land and having detailed relationships recorded in sasines.
Only a proportion of births and marriages were recorded and not all of those survive. You cannot assume that someone mentioned in Fife is the same man who appears in a later record in Moray. Anyone moving that distance at that time would probably leave traces in documents other than parish registers.
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Thanks GR2 and Forfarian...Okay so now the Sasines searching I go...Still, anyone with some Mitchell background please contact me or point me in the right direction..Cheers
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Mitch,
NRS http://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/welcome.aspx select search type in the name, years and the records you seek begin with GD. I see nothing to suggest your family held land. But, if they were farmers they may have been portioners. That being said, there are a lot of these records and records found within the superior that are not indexed and may require a researcher to access.
Btw...your Robert son of David 1784-1864 is incorrect this was the son of Robert and lived his entire life in Blackford (Perth).
And, the 1609 document you enquired about is a Baptism not a Birth Certificate and I believe the mother is identified, granted it is a bit hard for my old eyes to read.
Don
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Hello Don..Thanks for your interest..I will say that sometimes Mitchell is spelt as Mitchel..
I have David Mitchell 1699- Montrose married to Jean Burnet. They had John Mitchell 1728 in Montrose. He married Jean Stephanson..They had David Mitchel in 1752 Bap records show Mitchel..He married Jean Myre/Myer in 1775 in Dun. Marriage cert showing Mitchell..They had 7 children of which Robert Mitchel born 1784 in Montrose.. He married Helen Christison in Edzell in 1807 Marriage record shows Mitchel...So Mitchell, Mitchel even Mitchill is confusing....Yes
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Hi again..
First..I have attached extract partial copy marriage record .James Mitchell's marriage details I have show a Jonet Mitchell married 1609 Pencaitland..
Second... Robert Mitchell/Mitchel 1784 I have attached a few of his siblings to show spelling..
Thanks
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I don't doubt that you have all these original documents, and I agree that the dates match neatly and that spelling is irrelevant - I've also seen other variants beside the ones you have found.
What worries me is how you can be sure, for instance, that the James Mitchell who was born in 1584 in Dunfermline is the one who fathered James in Elgin in 1609? Or how to be sure that every one of the Mitchells who fathered a son in Montrose in the 1700s was born in Montrose and not a different person who had moved in from another parish? That's why you need to find independent evidence to prove that they were who they were.
Mitchell, incidentally, was the 19th commonest surname in Scotland when the Registrar General did a survey in 1990. This makes it much more difficult to be confident of each succeeding generation
As GR2 has said, the further back you go, the fewer people are actually in the records. This means that unless you have some independent proof, from sasines or wills or some other source, you cannot assume that a likely candidate is the right one.
When I started out with my tree, I found someone with exactly the right name to be my 2ggmother, born in exactly the right parish in exactly the right year, so I assumed she was my 2ggm and spent a lot of time working on her family. Then I got the death certificate of my 2ggm and discovered that she was an entirely different person whose baptism record had not survived.
I happen to know, because I looked it up for a similar discussion quite recently, that just over a fifth of people in my tree born in Scotland between 1780 and 1800 have no surviving baptism record. By the time you get back to 1600, there are many parishes with no surviving records at all. See https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/guides/old-parish-registers/list-of-old-parish-registers#List%20of%20OPRs for details of coverage by parish.
If you look at Elgin, you will see that there is a gap in the baptism records between 1679 and 1705. So it is perfectly possible that the father of James, born in Elgin in 1609, was born in Elgin between 1679 and 1705 and is unrecorded.
As I say, I am sorry to be a wet blanket, but baptism and marriage records alone are not sufficient to prove a line of descent.
I take it you have the Tasmanian death certificate for Robert (1809-1880) naming his parents as Robert Mitchell and Helen Christison?
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Yes..First..I should rephrase my being Descendant of James Mitchell 1584..second ..i am not asking about records of Elgin in 1679 etc...its the James and Jonet and did they travell to Elgin and have son, James Mitchell born in Elgin 1609, He then moved to Brechin, that i am seeking answers for..Thirdly i am still trying to find out how Robert Mitchell 1809 got to Tasmania..I have him leaving the army 1861 on his discharge papers he is asking to go to Hobart town..I believe he went home to Edzell, about june 1861 (based on Census) and getting passport number..So from late 1861 till about 1864 he arrived in Tasmania then marrying Ann Crawford in 1866..
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Btw...your Robert son of David 1784-1864 is incorrect this was the son of Robert and lived his entire life in Blackford (Perth).
DonM is quite right - you appear to have the wrong Robert Mitchell identified as the father of your Robert Mitchell who emigrated to Tasmania.
The Robert Mitchell who appears in the 1861 census in Edzell with his second wife, Betty Lamond(t), your Robert Mitchell and his brother James, was born in about 1785 in Marykirk, Kincardineshire - the 1851 census for Robert and Betty confirms this birthplace, as does the 1841 census, where he is noted as being born outside Angus. He married Helen Christison on 6 Jun 1807 in Edzell. She must have died before 1830, as Robert marries his second wife, Betty Lamont, on 17 Dec 1830. Betty already had an illegitimate daughter, Jean/Jane Bard (born in 1817 in Edzell - her father is named as David Bard on the baptism record) - this is the same Jane Bard who is with the Mitchell family in the 1861 census in Edzell.
This Robert Mitchell died on 30 May 1865 in Edzell. On his death registration, his parents are identified as Robert Michell and Janet Taylor. There is a marriage of a Robert Mitchell and Janet Taylor in Marykirk, Kincardineshire on 8 Nov 1776 - there are only two baptisms shown for this couple in Marykirk, both on 7 Jun 1777, so presumably twins: Ann and Janet. However, the parish records for Marykirk are incomplete for this period, so any other baptisms appear to have gone unrecorded.
Ruth
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Hi Ruth. I have Robert Mitchel born to David Mitchell and jean Myer at Montrose 1784..
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Hi Ruth. I have Robert Mitchel born to David Mitchell and jean Myer at Montrose 1784..
Yes, I know - but the census evidence suggests that the Robert Mitchell who is married to Betty Lamond(t) in the 1861 census in Edzell isn't that Robert Mitchell who was born in Montrose - he appears to be Robert Mitchell, born in Marykirk, son of Robert Mitchell and Janet Taylor, according to his death registration (the death was registered by his son James and names Betty Lamond as his wife - she died in 1864, the year before). James Mitchell died in 1888, and Robert Mitchell and Helen Christison are named on his death registration as his parents (his death was registered by his brother George).
So either the Robert Mitchell, aged 50, Chelsea Pensioner, who appears as the son of the above Robert Mitchell in the 1861 census isn't 'your' Robert Mitchell, or David Mitchell and Jean Myer aren't his grandparents - do you have compelling evidence to suggest that they are?
Ruth
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Hi again..There is a robert mitchel who married janet taylor in 1776 at marykirk..they had 2 daughters (Ann and Janet) born 1777.
Maybe ??? my Robert was maybe born in Marykirk to David and Jean but baptised in Montrose..
There is no Robert born to robert and janet in 1784 that I can find..???
Please, if you can set my search right it would be greatly appreciated.
I have robert mitchell ( my GG father coming from Edzell, Forfarshire ..born 1809)
His army records state the fact as well as saying coming to hobart town
He retired after 25 years in the army in Feb 1861 , coming home to edzell, hence the 1861 census.. then getting a passport number
His death cert. from Tasmania does not state his parents unfortunately..
Thankyou for your anticipated help Ruth.
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Hi again..There is a robert mitchel who married janet taylor in 1776 at marykirk..they had 2 daughters (Ann and Janet) born 1777.
Maybe ??? my Robert was maybe born in Marykirk to David and Jean but baptised in Montrose..
There is no Robert born to robert and janet in 1784 that I can find..???
Indeed, as I said in a previous post, unfortunately the parish records for Marykirk from around 1779 onwards are incomplete, so if Robert Mitchel and Janet Taylor did have any more children - and they at least had Robert, if we are to believe the death registration - then it looks like their baptisms have gone unrecorded.
According to the baptism record for Ann and Janet that has survived, the family were from Luthermuir, which is a small village between Marykirk and Edzell. The 1841 census for Marykirk shows three male Mitchels - William, James and David - who are all of a suitable age to be potential children of Robert Mitchel and Janet Taylor (and therefore brothers of Robert). I would be tempted to see if any of them lived beyond 1855 and have a look at their death records to see who their parents were...
Ruth
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Hi again..I have attached robert mitchell born 1784 to David and Jean a list of his siblings...All are baptised in Montrose, including Robert...There is another robert mitchell born in Maryton on Montrose a few months later but not to Robert and janet..
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Okay, so I notice that your post is from 2017(?) but just incase... Elgin Library, Moray now have a heritage section and are very helpful. Good luck with your search.
Local Heritage Service
Elgin Library
Cooper Park
Elgin
IV30 1HS
01343 562639
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Just for the record, the Heritage Section in Elgin Library has been being helpful since at least 1984, because that's when I started to use them.
They have a database of Moray people at http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp but it won't include anyone from Montrose, Edzell, Marykirk etc because none of those places are in Moray.