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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Wexflyer on Thursday 19 January 17 20:57 GMT (UK)
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Hi folks, just want to report a missing person! ;)
My great-grandmother Johanna Smyth (Smith) can be seen on the 1901 census in Oulart, Co. Wexford at
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001277064/ (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001277064/)
My great-grandfather, Luke Smyth, passed away in 1905, after which the family pub and farm were sold. Several children emigrated to the US. I have traced most everyone in 1910 and 1911, with the significant exception of my great-grandmother Johanna. She passed away in Enniscorthy, Co. Wexford in January 1917, so it does not appear that she left the country, or if she did, she returned.
I have searched high and low for Johanna in the 1911 census - just wondering if anyone else can find her!
p.s. The Johanna Smyth + family to be seen in Maudlintown, Wexford Town, in 1911 is not her.
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Having a look around and she certainly doesn't seem to pop up anywhere, even using various variations. What was her maiden name? Are the 4 children listed on the 1901 Census her only children?
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Is her son Peter,present at her death, the only child left in Ireland? http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wexford/Enniscorthy_Urban/Castle_Street/679965/
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I wondered if she might be on one of the 'lost' returns, the site explaining these and with links to some has sadly expired and they are very hard (well time consuming) to find. I don't even know if there are any for Wexford.
It's a problem with the search that if a set of returns has no townland written on it, it doesn't come up in the search and can only be found by moving image by image from one townland to the next until you find one that is not on the list.
Usually you can spot them by comparing the list of townlands from 1901 with 1911 but than comes the task of finding the images.
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Having a look around and she certainly doesn't seem to pop up anywhere, even using various variations. What was her maiden name? Are the 4 children listed on the 1901 Census her only children?
Maiden name was Crean[e], sometimes given as Crane. She had 6 children. Other than the four at home in the 1901 census, Margaret was away at school in Enniscorthy, and James was an apprentice shopkeeper in Gorey (in 1901).
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Is her son Peter,present at her death, the only child left in Ireland? http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wexford/Enniscorthy_Urban/Castle_Street/679965/
No in addition to Peter, there was also my grandmother, Katherine (another confectioner), and Luke.
- In January 1917, Peter had just retuned home from an all-expenses-paid vacation in Frongoch, Wales, curtesy of His Majesty! [For those who won't understand the reference, he was deported and detained without trial in Frongoch concentration camp].
- Luke had to flee to the US in 1923 (via Canada), due to the unpleasantness of the Civil War. He returned to Ireland in the 1930s when things had quietened down.
At the time of the 1911 census, two children were in the US, James and Mary. Margaret was in Dun Laoghaire, but left for the US in October 1911.
Which reminds me, that Luke may also be unaccounted for in the 1911 census!
p.s. How do you crop the images when you post?
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Duplicate.....
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I wondered if she might be on one of the 'lost' returns, the site explaining these and with links to some has sadly expired and they are very hard (well time consuming) to find. I don't even know if there are any for Wexford.
It's a problem with the search that if a set of returns has no townland written on it, it doesn't come up in the search and can only be found by moving image by image from one townland to the next until you find one that is not on the list.
Usually you can spot them by comparing the list of townlands from 1901 with 1911 but than comes the task of finding the images.
Interesting! Are you saying that they did not just leave the townland name blank in these cases, but that people in these "lost" townlands are completely unindexed? Strange approach to take, if so...
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I thought an example would explain best, the one I picked has the townland on it :-X I'm sure that is the reason given on the site I mentioned ???
Any way here is the example
Kildare 1901 Donaghcumper, note the townland Clonaghlis
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kildare/Donaghcumper/
Same place 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kildare/Donaghcumper/
notice Clonaghlis is missing
but it is online
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002562373/
Now try searching for any of the people on that house and building return
Here is James Brennan and family to make it easier to try a search
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002562379/
can you find them using the search.
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I thought an example would explain best, the one I picked has the townland on it
Very clear example, thank you. The lack of thought and lack of attention to detail in the creation and maintenance of these online indices always astonishes me. Especially (or because?) they were paid for.
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Today, I remembered that I do have some additional evidence for where my great-grandmother Johanna Smyth might have been in 1911. Unfortunately, this additional evidence somewhat confuses me. What I have are the US immigration records for two of her children, on which she is listed as their next-of-kin, and her address listed. Neither address makes sense to me.
The first is from the September, 1907, US immigration record for her son James. Her address is given as "Ballymill House, Graigue." I have searched extensively, but can find no record of a house by that name. I can't even figure out which Graigue - the one in Co. Carlow seems unlikely to me. There are multiple townlands by the name of Graigue, or including Graigue in Wexford.
The second is from the October, 1911, US immigration record for her daughter Margaret. Her address is given as M.....?, Co Wexford.
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Is the second clip "Murrintown"?
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Found this: Ballymills Graig na Managh Carlow Co. Wexford
http://www.irelandlookup.com/1012353/Architects/Carlow/Daly_Molloy_Creative_Planning_And_Design/
Is this the one you discounted...I don't known why the address is Carlow and Wexford but it's right on the Carlow/Kilkenny border and only 5 or 6 miles from the Wexford border.The fact that Ballymill is in the address is interesting.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murrintown
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Consider this Johanna:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wexford/Drinagh/Piercetown/695632/
This is in right area for Murrintown, and the Johanna, albeit aged 66, has only been married 6 years.
I'm heading out, but maybe someone can look for a Smith (Smyth) to Steadman marriage.
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Only George Steadman marriage I can find in 1898 to an Elizabeth :-\
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1898/10428/5797124.pdf
Added- George Stedman married Johanna Ennis in 1906-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1906/10119/5682102.pdf
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George Stedman to Johanna Ennis nee Byrne. Johanna was still Smith on her death cert
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I searched initials J S in the 1911 census in case she was in hospital but nothing jumped out.
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Trouble is that 'Johanna' could be listed as Hanna, etc. rather than Johanna :-\
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Well, at least another one ruled out.
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Not Johanna but Elizabeth Smyth 60, widow, born Wexford, 6 children and living in Murrintown,priest's housekeeper???
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wexford/Rathaspick/Murntown__Lower/692992/
Johanna age on her death cert in 1917 is 66. She had 6 children Peter Luke James Katherine Mary and Margaret
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Is this Luke http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003616722/
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Found this: Ballymills Graig na Managh Carlow Co. Wexford
http://www.irelandlookup.com/1012353/Architects/Carlow/Daly_Molloy_Creative_Planning_And_Design/
Is this the one you discounted...I don't known why the address is Carlow and Wexford but it's right on the Carlow/Kilkenny border and only 5 or 6 miles from the Wexford border.The fact that Ballymill is in the address is interesting.
The one I was discounting is the Graigue on the Carlow/Laois border, not Graig na Managh. I searched specifically for "Ballymill House", so would not have found this Ballymills in Graig na Managh.
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Not Johanna but Elizabeth Smyth 60, widow, born Wexford, 6 children and living in Murrintown,priest's housekeeper???
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wexford/Rathaspick/Murntown__Lower/692992/
Johanna age on her death cert in 1917 is 66. She had 6 children Peter Luke James Katherine Mary and Margaret
As you already pointed out, the problem with Elizabeth Smith as a a candidate is of course her name (not Johanna), and that there was an Elizabeth Smith or Smyth living locally in the Rathaspic area on the previous 1901 census. So, I would think not.
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Is this Luke http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003616722/
A definite maybe. Will have to think about this one - maybe!
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http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wexford/Rathaspick/Johnstown/1801762/
The other Elizabeth is 67 in 1901 so would be 77 in 1911 which is a big stretch from 60 especially if she's still working...but you're right of course, the name is wrong...it just was correct in every other respect.Maybe the priest only knew her as Mrs Smyth and got her name wrong when he was filling in the census...ha ha!
I've run out of ideas!
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http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wexford/Rathaspick/Johnstown/1801762/
The other Elizabeth is 67 in 1901 so would be 77 in 1911 which is a big stretch from 60 especially if she's still working...but you're right of course, the name is wrong...it just was correct in every other respect.Maybe the priest only knew her as Mrs Smyth and got her name wrong when he was filling in the census...ha ha!
Those 1901 ages may not be very accurate - father would have been 17 when daughter born?
I've run out of ideas!
Well, I think there is progress! I now have a reasonable candidate for Luke Smyth in the 1911 census. As for Johanna, I think the most probable explanation is simply that she was not included in the census at all, for whatever reason. There also being the possibility that she was in one of the "lost" townlands mentioned by Sianann.