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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: TinaRoyal on Wednesday 25 January 17 08:16 GMT (UK)
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Harriet Farrand, a relative of mine, was born in Wood Street, Manchester, (just off Deansgate), in the December Quarter of 1866 to a “boarder”, Catherine Murphy and my Great-Grandfather, James Farrand.
I have no evidence that Catherine and James ever got married, but Harriet did get married on 24th March 1886 to 22 year old John William Roberts at St. Mary’s Church, (again just off Deansgate), under the name of Harriet Farrand. After that Harriet seems to “disappear off the face of the earth”.
Tradition has it that Harriet died around 1905 in Salford, but I cannot support this.
Can anyone help me find Harriet on the 1891 Census or the 1901 Census? What happened to Harriet and John, where did they live, did Harriet die in Salford, if so where is she buried?
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Birth registered as Murphy? How do you know who her father was - is he named on the birth certificate and does she name James as her father when she marries? **
** I see the marriage. One of the witnesses is a John Farrand - any idea who he was?
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Looking for Roberts/Farrand births there is an
Eva Roberts born D 1895 Rotherham
Willie Farrand Roberts born J 1898 Rotherham
which may or may not be relevant to your family
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There's a Harriet Roberts death in J 1904 Salford age 35.
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Is this the right family in 1871 - address Wood Street which I think it reads on her marriage
James Farrand 50 widower born Salford
Eliza 12 daughter
then 3 children transcribed as Williams but I think William is just a second name for the first child
Frederick William 10 son
John 6 son
Harriet 3 daughter
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Hello
Family in 61 transcribed as Herald
James 1821 widower
Sarah ann b 1846
James b1849
Eliza b 1858
Frederick b1861
Catherine Murphy widow 1833 ireland
Mary Ann Murphy grandaughter 1852
Wood st
Lee
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There is no father named on Harriet’s Birth Certificate, but James Farrand is named as her father on Harriet’s Marriage Certificate. John Farrand was Harriet’s older brother.
Yes Milliepede, you have the right family on the 1871 Census, 39 Wood Street. Frederick is Frederick William and all the children, except Eliza on the Census, were born to Catherine Murphy. But they “assumed” the name Farrand. James was hardly likely to say to the Enumerator, “I am James, and these are my three illegitimate children, Frederick William, John and Harriet”.
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Hol, your list is a transcription of the 1861 Census for 39 Wood Street, what do the numbers next to Sarah Ann, Eliza, James and Frederick signify?
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Hello
They are the years they were born in too lazy to put 18 in ,done it now.. correct family though James is a poultry dealer.
Lee
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1851 census
James Farrand head,Joiner b1821 Salford
Eliza wife,Poulterer b1825 Manchester
Mary ann b1843 Manchester
Sarah Ann b1847 Manchester
James b1849 Manchester
Address Spinning Field Cellar Manchester
Lee
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Thanks for the clarification hol.
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Death for Eliza Farrand December qtr 1856 Manchester age 32
Possible Marriage as on same page James Farrand to Eliza Grundy sept 1845
James b1849 has mothers maiden name Rogers
Mary Anne Grundy b1843 has mothers maiden name Rozers ,mistranscibed i think.
Struggling to find Sarah Ann
In 1841 Wood st.
Mary Rogers b1797 head
Eliza Rogers b1826
Emma b1828
Frederick Grundy b1821.
Marriage Frederick Grundy to Eliza Rodgers June qtr 1841.
Frederick Grundy death 1844 age 24 manchester,leaving Eliza Grundy nee Rogers a single mother.
Lee
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The other witness on Harriets marriage cert Eliza Manning was her niece born 1871.
Eliza was registered with Manning-Farrand surname.
Eliza Manning was the daughter of Charles Manning Born 1838 and Sarah Ann Farrand b1847.
Sarah Anne was lodging with Charles in 1871 then as married on 1881 census although i cant find a marriage between them and all the children are Manning-Farrand no mothers maiden name.
Lee
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There is this one to consider
Harriet Roberts
Death
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration Year: 1904
Registration District: Salford
Lancashire
Age (available after 1866): 35
and this one
Harriet Roberts
Death
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration Year: 1904
Registration District: Barton Upon Irwell
Lancashire
Event Place: Barton Upon Irwell, Lancashire, England
Age (available after 1866): 43
Birth Year (Estimated): 1861
Volume: 8C
Page: 429
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Looks like that Harriet was born Wales and married to a William Roberts also from Wales.Her maiden name was williams they are on the 1891 1901 census.
Her husband has remarried by 1911 .
Her last child was born in sept qtr 1904 so it looks like complications after the birth.
Lee
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Looks like that Harriet was born Wales and married to a William Roberts also from Wales.Her maiden name was williams they are on the 1891 1901 census.
Her husband has remarried by 1911 .
Her last child was born in sept qtr 1904 so it looks like complications after the birth.
Lee
Which of them do you mean?
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Eliza Rogers married Frederick Grundy in 1841. One of the children they had was Mary Ann Grundy, born in 1843. Eliza was only 20 when Frederick died in 1844. James Farrand married Eliza Rogers in 1845 and they had a number of children, including Sarah Ann Farrand, born in 1846. Eliza died in 1856 aged 32.
Harriet was born in 1866. If the Harriet Farrand who died in Salford in 1904 is “our” Harriet, that would suggest that she spent all of her life in the Manchester/Salford area. We should be able to find her on the 1891 or 1901 Census therefore, unless we are extremely unlucky and she was visiting, both of those nights.
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heatherjulie and tinaroyal ,the one who died sept 1904 b1862 from Salford is not Harriet born Manchester. She was born in Flint,Wales and had maiden name Williams,so she is eliminated from enquiries.
The other death of Harriet in June qtr 1904 was born 1872 so she is eliminated too.
Still looking
Lee
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Thanks Lee.
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Still desperately seeking what happened to Harriet Farrand.
Harriet, who was born in 1866, got married to John William Roberts on 24th March 1886 in Manchester, after that Harriet seems to “disappear off the face of the earth”. Harriet cannot be found anywhere on the 1891 U K Census, or indeed on any Census Return after that date. Did Harriet die before 1891? Did John die, and Harriet got married again? Did they emigrate?
Any suggestions from fellow RootChatters, as to what might have happened, would be gratefully received.
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I’d like to thank all for trying to find what happened to Harriet Farrand. Although not successful this time, I appreciate those fellow RootChatters who spent their time, trying to locate her. As well as those who contributed to this “post”, I know there must have been many others who searched for her. I wish to thank them also.
My special thanks goes to Milliepede, Les and Heatherjulie, for their contributions. Les you expunged the myth that Harriet died in Salford around 1905. This opens up new avenues of research.
I will leave the post open. Someone in the dim and distant “future”, whilst searching for somebody else, may well come across Harriet Farrand and think back, “I remember, Tina Royal was looking for her”.
Thank you again for all your efforts.
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What did you have for her as an occupation?
Could she be the harriet roberts who landed in new york in 1893 having sailed from new york?
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What did you have for her as an occupation?
Could she be the harriet roberts who landed in new york in 1893 having sailed from new york?
I can find no occupation listed for Harriet Farrand. Born in Manchester in 1866, on the 1881 Census, she was still a Scholar. Her father, James Farrand, had a Poultry stall in Smithy-Door Market, just off Deansgate, maybe she helped him on his stall. At her marriage to John William Roberts in 1886, no occupation for her is recorded. John was a Button Maker, so maybe she eventually became involved in tailoring.
I’m intrigued by the Harriet Roberts who landed in New York in 1893, please tell me more what you know about her. I would love to know, even if all it achieves, is that we eliminate her from the search.
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Not much to go off
Name: Harriet Roberts
Birth Date: abt 1865
Age: 28
Port of Departure: New York, New York, United States
Arrival Date: 10 May 1893
Port of Arrival: Liverpool, England
Occupation: Servant
Ship Name: Teutonic
Shipping line: White Star Dominion Line
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As you say, “Not much to go off”. Was John Roberts on board with her ?
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Not much to go off
Name: Harriet Roberts
Birth Date: abt 1865
Age: 28
Port of Departure: New York, New York, United States
Arrival Date: 10 May 1893
Port of Arrival: Liverpool, England
Occupation: Servant
Ship Name: Teutonic
Shipping line: White Star Dominion Line
This person arriving in Liverpool from New York was a servant, travelling with a 24 yr old Ellen Roberts, same occupation.
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One of the possibilities I had considered, concerning the Harriet Roberts who arrived in the UK in 1893. Maybe John and Harriet emigrated to the States prior to 1891, (hence they would not be on the 1891 Census). John dies abroad and Harriet returns “home”. If Harriet then got married again, she would not be found on the 1901 Census under the name of Roberts.
I have located the Roberts family in Manchester on both the 1871 Census and 1881 Census. Unfortunately there is no sign of any Ellen Roberts. I must conclude therefore that the Harriet Roberts who sailed to the UK in 1893, with her travelling companion Ellen Roberts, is not the Harriet Farrand being sought.
Of course, this does not mean John and Harriet did not emigrate, as well as the States, they may well have gone to Canada, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, or anywhere else in the world.
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Hello
Could you post details of the the Roberts family 71 and 81 as i could not pin them down to what i thought was the correct family.
Thanks Lee
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Roberts family on the 1871 Census in Manchester, Piece #: RG10/4054, Folio 14, Enumeration District 37, Page Number 22. Roberts family on the 1881 Census in Manchester, Piece #: RG11/4002, Folio 36, Enumeration District 16, Page Number 65.
“Disclaimer and Warning”. Of course, I could be completely wrong. These may not be the Census Returns for the husband of Harriet Farrand, I have no concrete evidence to support that they are, I only have circumstantial evidence. There were only two John William Roberts born in Manchester between 1861 and 1865, one of whom died within twelve months of being born. On the 1871 Census, 5 Bratt Street, and on the 1881 Census, 85 Husband Street, were the only addresses in Manchester were a John William Roberts was living. That John William Roberts was born in Manchester.
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Hello
The John William you have found on 71/81 census has mother Ellen whereas he names his mother as Sarah on marriage to Harriet
Lee
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It’s all very confusing. The father on the Marriage Certificate was named “Sarah”, not the mother. Does anyone remember “Big Daddy”, the wrestler? His real name was Shirley Crabtree.
That’s why I love RootsChat so much. I can speculate, in the knowledge that if there is any, “chink in the argument”, someone will pick it up and perhaps suggest an alternative. Thank you Lee for your comments, maybe John William’s mother was called Sarah.
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Hello
All very confusing ,do you have the wedding certificate? I was going off lanc opc where it states grooms mother.
I have as i think you have too,been through every possible John and Harriet in the area and beyond using many possible variations of the names and still come up with nothing.
Will keep trying though.
Lee
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The original marriage entry can be found by Googling, “Manchester Parish Records”, click on “England, Manchester, Parish Registers, 1603-1910 – FamilySearch.org”. Enter “Harriet Farrand”, Marriage, Marriage Place “Manchester”, Range of Marriage “1886 – 1886”. Search. That will bring up Harriet’s marriage to John William Roberts. View the Image and you will see the original marriage entry.
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I remember Big Daddy ;D
Have looked up the marriage image and whilst it does say Sarah in the fathers name column there is a line through the occupation box. This leads me to believe Sarah was his mother and he didn't know who his father was. Why would the occupation box have a line through if it was a man?
Man would have an occupation of some sort or deceased written there I would have thought.
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There's a Harriet Roberts widow (clutching at straws here!) who marries in 1890 to a Frank Smith widower. No fathers name given for her unfortunately. His father is Richard Smith.
No the ages are way off - 39 for her :(
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I cannot explain why the father’s occupation has a line through it. I took this as meaning John William’s father was not in employment. It is difficult to know, 130 years after the event, why something was recorded in this non-standard way. If the 1881 Census found is for the right family, against John William’s father is the notation, “Out of Employ”.
According to the GRO Birth Index, there was no John William Roberts born to an unmarried mother in England and Wales during the 1863/64 period.
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Hi,
I have been following this thread and like everyone else, getting frustrated at not being able to come up with some answers.
I wondered if you had seen the 1881 census entry for a John Wm Roberts age 16 at a boarding school in Hulme, Manchester. I wondered if this could be your John?
There is also a Sarah Roberts age 36 a widow in HM "Cheetham" in Manchester (prisoner no 21 on Page 27) - a cotton factory worker. If you can't find it, the prison matron was a Sarah Ann Hitchen and the head an Alfred Alsop - which might enable you to find the right page.
In 1871 I can see a John Roberts age 6 boarding with a Bridget Byrnes age 49 (originally from Ireland) but again I would not be certain it is your John.
Alan
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Obviously Alan, I am desirous to pursue any lead which might lead to what happened to Harriet Farrand or John William Roberts. What was the Boarding School in Hulme, and how do I access the 1881 Census for it?
Also what year was Sarah Roberts a prisoner in Cheetham, Manchester, and how do I access those details?
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Hi,
The census details are on the subscription site "Ancestry" - however should you not have access the 1881 details are available for free on familysearch.org (John Wm birth showing as 1865 and Sarah as 1845)
I have no idea if prisoner records are accessible, but hopefully someone else on Rootschat may know.
The sad part of this is that having looked at numerous census details I cannot see Harriet or John after their marriage in 1886 - it is so frustrating.
Interestingly Harriet's sister Eliza married a James Fox in 1877 and their family remained in Wood Street, Manchester in the 1881/1891/1901 censuses. One of their children was named Harriet (born c1890). The question is why didn't John and Harriet also stay in the area?
I cannot find any answers - only more questions.
Alan
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For those who might be interested in looking up the 1881 Census Return for the John William Roberts, Boarder at the School in Hulme, Manchester, Piece #: RG11/3925, Folio 106, Enumeration District 11, Page Number 9.
And for Sarah Roberts, who was a “guest” at HM Prison, Cheetham in Manchester, Piece #: RG11/4027, Folio 93, Enumeration District HMP, Page Number 26.
Both Sarah Roberts and John William Roberts were born in Manchester, (although we have no evidence that either the Sarah, or the John William Roberts we are looking for, were born in Manchester). The School was at 69 Great Jackson Street, which was close to where Harriet Farrand was living, just off Deansgate.