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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: harewood on Thursday 26 January 17 12:01 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to find out where the Brocklehurst part of this comes from. I know she was married in August 1805 in Prestbury to Samuel Dale where it says her name is Lucy Brocklehurst. But records show she was the daughter of Lord Leigh and the Countess Beaugarde. A number of people on Ancestry refer to Lucy Leigh Brocklehurst so it must be correct. Can anybody help?
Martin Dale
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Lord Leigh i.e. Edward Leigh, 5th. Baron Leigh, did indeed die in 1786 but according to records he died unmarried and without heirs??
If Lucy was indeed his daughter, then she must have been born 'the wrong side of the blanket' which could explain where 'Brocklehurst' came from i.e. her mother.
Annette
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Just looked at banns/marriage record and Lucy Brocklehurst 'made her mark' so certainly doesn't sound like a 'well-born' lady.
The information on Ancestry has been submitted by 'members' and not from 'facts'. Indeed, I can find nothing to substantiate the information at all.
Annette
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Curiouser and curiouser. Too add to the mystery three of her sons have Leigh as a second Christian name and some records show that she had a sister called Mary Leigh. Very murky
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Hello Martin,
I am the great-great granddaughter of Martha Dale born 1821 to Samuel Dale, Silk Manufacturer and Lucy Brocklehurst in Macclesfield, Cheshire. Martha married William Hamson, manager of Silk Spinning Mill in Commercial Rd, Macclesfield and they immigrated to Brisbane, Australia in 1865. Lucy Brocklehurst was not educated as she signed her 1805 with an X mark. I have a copy of this document. Her parents names were not given and the 1841 census notes she was "not born in Cheshire." The 1851 census records Lucy 68, living in Hulme, Manchester and born in Birmingham, Warwickshire! No birth record has been found. Lucy died 12 May 1866 in Heaton Norris, Manchester aged 80, of old age.
Various accounts of connections with nobility and the Leigh family of Stoneleigh in England have been passed down through the generations by Hamson family members. My grandmother told her daughters that a female ancestor had entertained Queen Victoria. Quite a bit of detailed research has found no conclusive evidence about these stories, though Queen Victoria was indeed a guest at Stoneleigh Manor in 1858 but that's too late for Lucy. I have Samuel Dale born 1783 Astbury, Chesh to William Dale and Phoebe Delves.
Martha (Dale) & William Hamson were considered "middle-class" in Australia and named their house "Stonleigh" !! You can contact me by email at jvee@powerup.com.au
Regards, June (Cochrane) Vickers.
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More about Lucy Brocklehurst. IGI Baptism found by Birmingham & Midland Gen Soc for a Lucy BROCKHURST, Christened 14 May 1781, dau of William and Ann, in St. Matthews church, Walsall, Stafford (now part of Birmingham).
There is no proof that this is my 3xgreat grandmother Lucy Brocklehurst Dale.
William and Ann Brocklehurst had 11 other children 1776- James; 1777- Ann; 1778-Sarah; 1779-Henry; 1783- William; 1786 - Ellizabeth; 1788 -Mary; 1789- William; 1792- Maria; 1794 Twins Joseph & Benjamin; 1796- Charlotte.
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Martin Dale,
You have written, ..."But records show she was the daughter of Lord Leigh and the Countess Beaugarde." Are they documented records or something someone has put on their family tree?
I would not be surprised to find that Lucy Brocklehurst circa 1786-1866 was an illegitimate daughter of one of the Leigh nobility but we need more proof.
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hi,
this is fantastic stuff! i'll get my head around its implications and email you!
are you on Ancestry? if so let me know and we can swap trees
Best wishes,
Martin Dale
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No Martin, I no longer subscribe to Ancestry, and they won't let me see other trees without an invitation but you can find my old tree which is called HAMSON-DALE. If you email your user name I can send you an invite, but there are no photos or stories recorded. I can send more info by email if you like and a Gedcom eventually. I don't even have a photo of my 2xgreat grandparents Martha & William, but I have info about their life in Australia and Cheshire.
Cheers, June
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I have this connection in my family tree copied from a family member about 40 years ago. At this time I was told that Edward, Lord Leigh had married Countess de Beaugarde secretly, but there was a record of their wedding at St. Catherine house in London. I have recently applied to St. catherine house, but am yet to hear from them. I believe 'Countess de Beaugarde' to be a false name, as there are no records of any nobility bearing this name that I have found.
A bit of research on the internet shows that Edward was declared insane and kept under lock and key from 1774; so this poses a problem about how Lucy was conceived. Also she was born the year that Edward died. My records show Lucy born c1786 at Heaton Norris, Manchester, England.
This is a story that intrigues me greatly and I would love to know the truth... but I fear that is lost in the years since and we can only wonder.
Phoenixf (gjandjr@live.com)
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hi Phoenix,
So , I'm not the only one who is confused! Many thanks for your information. If you do hear back from St Catherine's House or any other source, Please do let me know.
regards
Martin Dale
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Lucy (Brocklehurst) DALE was born circa 1786 though a search for a birth certificate has proved fruitless. She died on 12 May 1866 at Heaton Norris, Stockport, Manchester aged 80. Source: Free BDM UK, Deaths, Lucy Dale. She was not born in Heaton Norris.
1841 Census records: Rocks, Chorley, Cheshire (HO 107/115/3. folio 10, page 14): Samuel Dale 55, Silk Draper, born in cheshire; Lucy Dale 55, not born in Cheshire; William Dale 35, born in Cheshire; Samuel Dale 15, born in Cheshire; James Swindells 8, born in Cheshire.
Macclesfield Baptisms: St. Michaels, 1572-1872 - No baptism for Lucy Brocklehurst. Christ Church 1775-1812 - No baptism. Prestbury, St. Peter - 1777 -1794 - No baptism.
1851 Censusof Hulme: Living at 15 Belleek St, Chorlton, Hulme, Manchester: Samuel DALE, Head, 70 years, Occ: Proprietor of Houses, born Astbury, Cheshire. Lucy DALE, age 68, born Birmingham, Warwickshire. Ann Dale, age 31, unmarried, dressmaker, born Macclesfield, Chesh. Samuel Dale, age 27, unmarried, Bookkeeper, born Macclesfield, Cheshire.
No birth was found for Lucy in Birmingham, Warwickshire.
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This gets more intriguing by the moment. The 1841 National Census I can access has no information on birthplace so thanks for the information! As you say the 1851 survey says born in Birmingham Warks but the 1861 says born in Cheshire.
it's a mystery!
Regards
Martin
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I have just read a book by Judy Stove called " The Missing Monument Murders" which although not pertaining to Lucy; gives a great deal of interesting information about the Leigh family and the merky events after Edward, lord Leigh's death in 1786.
It verifies a lot of the info you sent me June.
Perhaps Lucy was wise to keep her story, if true, confined to her family!
Where are you based Martin? Would love to chat.
Phoenixf (gjandjr@live.com)
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Thanks Phoenixf for info about book about the Leigh family, Missing Monument Murders, I will certainly get a copy.
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Lucy Dale was buried 16 May 1866 at the Church of St Thomas Heaton Norris.
She was buried in a new grave opened/bought by Samuel Dale.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jta/
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I have just read a book by Judy Stove called " The Missing Monument Murders" which although not pertaining to Lucy; gives a great deal of interesting information about the Leigh family and the merky events after Edward, lord Leigh's death in 1786.
It verifies a lot of the info you sent me June.
Perhaps Lucy was wise to keep her story, if true, confined to her family!
Where are you based Martin? Would love to chat.
Phoenixf (gjandjr@live.com)
more and
more intriguing! Currently travelling in Europe but back just before Easter . Very happy to chat after that. I am based in Buckinghamshire . And you?
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Lucy Dale was buried 16 May 1866 at the Church of St Thomas Heaton Norris.
She was buried in a new grave opened/bought by Samuel Dale.
Thanks for this. I feel I'm slowly getting closer to who her father was. Do you have any information on her ancestors?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jta/
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Hi harewood,
No sorry I don't know anything about the ancestors of Lucy.
I've been following the posts and was wondering how she came to be buried in Heaton Norris.
I've been trying to find her on the 1861 census, do you have those details?
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Possibly but I'm travelling at the moment and am not back in the uk for a couple of weeks so I don't have access to my family tree. I will have a look when I get back.
Regards
Harewood
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Hi harewood,
No sorry I don't know anything about the ancestors of Lucy.
I've been following the posts and was wondering how she came to be buried in Heaton Norris.
I've been trying to find her on the 1861 census, do you have those details?
now back in the UK and can tell you in the 1861 census at 82 Dorset (?) in Hulme Lancashire. Samuel Dale 75, Lucy Dale 74, Ann Dale 37, Samuel Dale 33
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Hi Everyone,
My name Anneke Starkey, Mom is the daughter of Normon Brooks Dale, his father was Harry Wallwork Dale, who was the son of David Henry Dale, who was the son of David Leigh Dale, who was the son of Samuel Dale and Lucy Leigh Brocklehurst -- We're family!! Yay!!! Have any of you found any information about Lucy?
~Anneke
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quite a bit! Do you have your family tree on Ancestry or on any of the other sites?
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Fantastic!!! ;D yes I am on Ancestry.com- - ton of trees I am working on right now. Mainly the Wilson - Starkey family tree.
Are you on Ancestry.com too? I am talking my Mom right now, we're super excited because my Grandpa Sale passed away in 1999 and we have been trying to research his family. He was an only child, so not too many people to talk to there. Thank you so much!!
How are you related to the Dale line?
~Anneke
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I am on ancestry.co.uk
and I am a Dale. According to my calculations you are my sixth cousin one removed. Lineage hopefully attached. If not, send me your email address and I will attach a PDF
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Hi Martin!
Nice to meet you cousin. We are in the US and my Grandpa Dale and his family immigrated in 1963 from Manchester. My Grandpa Dale died believing David Leigh Dale was an orphan, because he couldn't find anything. He would have loved to have known what you have found. Thank you so very much. I honestly feel I have a little piece of him back. ;D
I have attached pictures of my Grandpa Dale back in the 1940s and one of myself, mom, and grandpa before he passed on and one of my grandpa.
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Hello Clan,
I thought it was time I reported in to you all.
I have visited the UK and strolled around a bit of Manchester (Chorley etc) where Lucy and her family lived; trying to get closer to her. One thing I discovered was that the Brocklehurst family were big in the Silk industry and I seem to remember that Lucy was a silk worker at one time. Samuel was also listed as a silk manufacturer or Silk draper.
I have just wandered through my list of their children:
William bab 15 June 1806; Phoebe bab 9 March 1808; Sarah bab 15 July 1810; David Leigh bab 18 April 1813; Peter Leah bab 6 Aug 1815; Lucy bab 2 Nov 1817; Ann bab 26 Sept 1819; Martha (also called Margaret in places) bab 9 Sept 1821; Samuel bab 19 Oct 1823; Mary bab 7 Aug 1825. Then I have two more that don't seem to be correct to me- Ann 1824 and Samuel 1828. As there are already children of these names (and they appear to be alive according to census 1851) it is unlikely that these children are Lucy and Samuel's. Has anyone else tripped over these two? It is also interesting that Mary married John Brocklehurst on 13.11.1850.
I am descended from Lucy who married Samuel Timperley, and in later life, emigrated to New Zealand with most of their family. If anyone wants more information about this branch of the family, please just ask. I am interested in other branches of the family if anyone is willing to supply me with theirs.
As a side note, I was interested to see that you come from Buckinghamshire, Martin. We stopped in a little village called Tingewick there, when we were in the UK, as my gg grandmother was born there. We didn't know her maiden name but my grandmother's names were Amy Cross; so we wondered about the Cross. It was very exciting to find a Cross Lane there; and since then I have found my ancestress under that name and it all matches out! Wonderful adventure; and a lovely village!
I am also trying to write a book about Lucy; but it will be fiction as there are too many gaps and rumours, but maybe, one day it will even be finished!
Till then,
Best to all,
Robyn
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Hi Robyn!
I am excited to meet you -- more family. Yay! ;D
I am descended from David Leigh Dale -- in fact my brother was named after David Leigh. My Grandpa was Norman Brooks Dale and he is the son and only child of Harry Wallwork Dale and grandson of David Henry Dale, who was the son of David Leigh Dale.
I did get to spend 6.5 yrs. of my childhood growing up in the UK (my dad was in the USAF) and long since returned to the United States. We are located in Salt Lake city, Utah.
I'd be happy to share my line with you. Are you on ancestry.com?
I shared pictures of my grandparents in an earlier post. My Grandpa passed on in 1999, thinking that David Leigh Dale must have been an orphan because he couldn't find anything on his family --- lol, he would be so happy and shocked at how large his extended family really is.
I am happy to chat more!!
All the best,
Anneke Starkey :)
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Dear Anneke,
I had read your post...and started including your branch in my tree. I have a tree on Ancestry.com; but am not a member at this time.
Have you read my previous post on page 2?
Robyn (phoenixf)
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hi Robyn,
Just finished travelling and only just seen your post! Three things
1) Lucy Brocklehurst is very interesting. Reading around it my take is that she was illegitimate but it was rumoured Edward Leigh was the father. He died without legitimate issue. For the next two generations arguments raged as to who should inherit the Stoneleigh Family estate. Lots of claims, a few unexplained deaths and the removal from the local church of a number of monuments to people who might have laid claim to the spoils. My wild guess is that's why a number of the family inserted Leigh in their names .. just in case. Fascinating stuff!
2) Buckinghamshire is lovely. I come originally from Staffordshire but we have lived in Chalfont St Giles for twenty years just at the foot of the Chiltern Hills. Marvellous place to live.
3) are you on Ancestry? If so, please let me know your code name and I'll have a ,look. It's the Dale family in which I'm mainly interested.
regards
Martin
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Hi there Family,
I am only on Ancestry as an unpaid member, sorry.
I have never heard back from St Catherine House about Lucy Brocklehurst, despite them taking my payment for the information. No response to any follow up either.
The information we originally were given was that a marriage certificate had been sighted by the person who drew up the tree I saw[ and who was known to the cousin that showed me the tree. Again I would prefer to see it myself, but it was obviously hidden deep.
Has anyone got hold of the book by Judy Stove-Wilson http://www.watersidepress.co.uk/acatalog/The-Missing-Monument-Murders-9781909976245.html#SID=34
It really is an interesting read for those interested in the drama around the Leigh family.
I am on Facebook if anyone wants to connect with me there- Rambling with Rags will find me.
I have found a number of family during our rambles over the last year- more are more than welcome!
Regards,
Robyn
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The dates bear absolutely no comparison but reading a French history book recently I came across a Countess de Beauregard. Harriet Howard( 1823-1865)English, was a mistress of Emperor Louis -Napoleon. Maybe, someone with a sense of humour decided to use this as an alias when rewriting history!
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Hello Family-
Further side stories- I have finally written a post about my visit to Stoneleigh Abbey- where Lucy's (rumoured) father lived his short and sad life. Please feel welcome to join me there: https://whoisrags.com/2020/04/15/the-bridge-at-stoneleigh/ Another post to follow in the next few days. There is also another side shoot from the Lucy / Leigh story. I have contacted this guy to see what stories he has heard from the past. https://herecomethehoopers.com/cheated-out-of-my-ancestral-home/
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It is a while since anyone on here has spoken; but I thought I would let you all know that I am attempting to write a book about Lucy (fiction based on the known facts). https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100082995859136
Also I have come up with an idea. If Lucy's mother was registered as Countess de Beaugarde; maybe this is a misinterpretation of the old writing. Perhaps her Christian name was Courtenay- the nearest name I could find to Countess. As Beaugarde and Courtenay are both French names, and it is more likely to write a name than a title on the wedding registration(if only we could find it).
I hope some of you will catch up with me on my 'The Lunatic's Secret' page.
Regards to all,
Robyn