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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: NicD on Thursday 26 January 17 15:10 GMT (UK)
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Should anyone be trying to trace this family back to Scotland do get in touch, I worked down this line and it gets quite complicated not to mention sad.
Names include
John o/w Jonathan Noble b1876 Montrose, wife Jane McAllen Munro b Aberdeen c1879. Children born Aberdeen; John Noble b1904 married Ellen Violet Grosz, Jane Munro Noble b1901 married L. Francis Daly and Margaret Helen Noble b1908 (blind according to immigration records)
Wife and family immigrated on the Cassandra 1921, father had been working there for some years prior.
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There is a section on RoostChat for recording our surnames of interest - might be an idea to post your surnames on that if you haven't already - go to the bottom of any RootsChat page and in the brown section under "your tools" you will see a listing for "surname interests" - click on this link.
Sandra
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Bit if a novice, hadn't spotted that. Thank you!
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No prob - you probably hadn't noticed that little section ;)
Sandra
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Hi,
I believe there is a link to Jonathan Noble in my husband's family tree. His 2xG Grandmother Decastro Dobson married Jonathan Noble in Aberdeen in 1861. As far as I can tell they did not have any children together and my husband is descended from a later relationship, however she remained legally married to Jonathan.
There are a fair number of newspaper reports on his brushes with the law. His sister Jane married Charles Lawrie, and there's also a link to the name Ross.
Let me know if you think this is the same family.
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Hi there,
It is indeed the same family. I am descended from sister Jane. Another sister Elizabeth married a James Ross in Aberdeen. Father was also Jonathan Noble from Banchory. I have now made contact with Noble connections in Canada, think you may have too? Just last night I found Jonathan appears to have had an illegitimate child, Isabella Hope Mitchell with mother Isabella Walker Mitchell in Aberdeen in 1860, so not long before he marred DeCastro Dobson. They later appear to move to Aston Warwickshire (Birmingham). There is a slightly illegible note in the margin of the record about a paternity action, which is signed in Nov 1861. I have lots of the newspaper clippings, fyi I am almost certain he often used the name Charles Ramsay which picks up even more misdeeds. Quite a character but not in a good way. So your husband is descended from Charles Low?
Kind Regards
Nicola
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Hi, yes I had contact from Canada which set me off searching. Yes, my husband is descended from Charles Low who Decastro remained with until her death in 1902 which is recorded as Alexandrina de Castro Noble (married to Jonathan Noble, House Carpenter, Journeyman).
Interesting he may use the name Ramsay as that was Decastro's mother's maiden name. Decastro (most likely known as Cassie) was descended from a wealthy Scottish family but no reflection of that in her life.
I'd be surprised if there were no children from her relationship with Jonathan, so would like to search more for something there.
Coincidentally my husband is also descended from a James Ross, at this point I'm assuming there's no connection with the one Elizabeth Noble married.
Regards,
Lynne
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Elizabeth's James Ross was a shoemaker b1835 in Banchory too. Quite a common name in the area, a bit tricky because not many middle names to help She died young in 1868, and he remarried, their children were dispersed a bit. I'd seen the Ramsay connection to Decastro, also a Ramsay family were major landowners in the area so he may have got it from there. I have a theory that Jonathan Noble may have expected to have a good living as a Carpenter in Banchory as his father had but that the business got into difficulties. In 1861 there is an auction advertisement for the sale of the property and tools of the trade of Jonathan Sr, he was still only in his 50s, and it was for the benefit of his 'creditors'. Not sure if it went ahead. He actually lived till nearly 90!
Feel free to message me directly, I can send you a copy of the Mitchell birth, the file was a bit big to upload here.
N
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Hi,
Yes, I saw the advert for the roup, however there are later newspaper adverts where he is still listed as a carpenter.
Would like to share information but don't think I can send private messages yet. If you are able to send me one that would be great.
Lynne
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There is a slightly illegible note in the margin of the record about a paternity action, which is signed in Nov 1861.
Did you download the certificate from scotlandspeople? Often there is a RCE, which you can also download. It will probably name the father.
Hope this helps,
flst
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There is a slightly illegible note in the margin of the record about a paternity action, which is signed in Nov 1861.
If it's hard to read, contact SP via the results page and ask them to re-scan it so you can read it more easily.
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No RCE. The father's name was on the original registration and from what I can make out the Sheriff Court upheld this. I will contact SP as suggested.
Thanks!
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The absence of an RCE is understandable if the court found that he was the father, because in that case there was no need to correct the original information. But it's very odd that there was a court action if the father had accepted paternity by signing the birth certificate.
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The mother is the actual informant, child marked as illegitimate but father's name given. I am right in presuming he would have to be there with her for his name to appear? You wonder if he tried to back out of responsibility.
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The mother is the actual informant, child marked as illegitimate but father's name given. I am right in presuming he would have to be there with her for his name to appear? You wonder if he tried to back out of responsibility.
Yes. The father could only be named on the birth certificate of an illegitimate child if he accompanied the mother to the Registrar's when she went to register the birth, and signed the certificate along with her. It would be very difficult for him to back out after that, I imagine.
It is possible that there might be something in the Kirk Session records about this birth, but I have never tried to search the Aberdeen Kirk Session records, and it is always a bit more hit-and-miss in a large town or city where it would be easier for an illicit pregnancy to escape the notice of the Kirk Session.
There's an outside chance that there might be something in the Parochial Board (Poor Law) records, depending on whether the mother applied to the Board for relief.
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Might be worth a go, they'd have been more than busy passing judgement in Aberdeen that's for sure! Something seems to come up on the NRS catalogue for Aberdeen Sherriff Court papers but it says there has been some weeding out and there are gaps.
Jane Noble my 2x Gt Grandmother, sister of Jonathan, had an illegitimate son in Banchory in 1864, I'd quite like to check that one out. Although no father's name on that Birth Cert he is named on the death record at Keith four years later and it appears his family had taken the child in. Unusual?
N
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Although no father's name on that Birth Cert he is named on the death record at Keith four years later and it appears his family had taken the child in. Unusual?
No, quite common. It could and did happen that the whole parish knew fine who the father was, but if he didn't go with the mother to register the birth, he wouldn't be on the certificate.
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I meant that it seemed unusual that the baby went to the father's family miles away from the mother? Sorry if wording unclear!
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I meant that it seemed unusual that the baby went to the father's family miles away from the mother? Sorry if wording unclear!
No, that's not uncommon either. Depends on the circumstances. Maybe the mother married someone who wasn't willing to take on the child. Or her parents were not able to look after it. Or maybe the father just wanted his child more than its mother did.
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I would be interested in any information on this family the and descendants of John Noble and Ellen Grotz and John Noble and Ivy Clarke.
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Just joining this thread as it came up in a search. I have recently placed this Jonathon Noble in my tree. It seems he had three wives/relationships that are recorded. My tree connects with his sister Elisabeth Noble, whose son James Noble Ross married my family member Helen Grant Butters (also known as Helen Mitchell), born Peterhead in my Butters family. James and Helen married in Aberdeen and emigrated to South Africa.
Margaret
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Hi Margaret I'd be interested in the 3 names of wife and partners you have found and any information on the descsendance of Elizabeth. Thank you David
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David
I am in touch with Margaret via Ancestry, and yourself already. Also another descendant in Canada you have recently been in touch with I believe? Since starting this thread I have quite a bit more detail which I am preparing to send you and Kevin. A lot has been added on our Ancestry trees fairly recently. I should add that I was mistaken in the Birmingham connection for Jonathan Noble’s daughter with Isabella Walker Mitchell, they stayed in Aberdeen.
Best regards
Nicola
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Thanks Nicola. As long as you're aware of what's what I shall await your news. No rush. David.