RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: wilcoxon on Saturday 28 January 17 16:02 GMT (UK)
-
13 May 1844 William Duncan married Catherine Philips at St Cuthberts Edinburgh.
Her father is Robert Philips.
Why is she referred to as daughter of Charlotte Denholm in 1851?
Could Charlotte have been Phillips and remarried to William Denholm ?
I can`t work it out. I have searched for baptism of Catherine Philips, and possible remarriage of Charlotte Philips to William Denholm with no luck.
Scotland is a new area of research for me so I may be missing something.
1841 Lasswade.
William Denholm 50
Charlotte Denholm 56
William Denholm 25
Spence Denholm 21
Charlotte Denholm 14
Margaret Denholm 12
1851 Northside Loanhead Village
Charlotte Denholm head 67 Loanhead, Midlothian
Charlotte Denholm dau 23 Loanhead, Midlothian
Margaret Denholm 20 Loanhead, Midlothian
William Duncan son in law 30 gardener b Omintt ?, Aberdeen
Catherine Duncan dau 34 Dalkeith, Midlothian
Jane Burns Duncan gr daughter 5 Corstorphine, Midlothian
Margaret Duncan 3 Corstorphine, Midlothian
William Duncan 1 Mo Loanhead, Midlothian
-
Hi wilcoxon
Have you been able to follow Catherine to a death in Scotland post 1855 to see what her death may say re her parents?
Charlotte, from what you have on the censuses, looks to have been Charlotte Hook. A number of children showing for her and husband William from at least 1811 in Lasswade. From FS, some births here www.rootschat.com/links/01jdc/
Catherine looks to have been born after 1811 so a puzzle as to why you have what you have unless her death cert sheds some light. Any sighting of her in 1841?
Monica :)
-
There is a possible entry for a Catherine Denholm in 1841:
Catherina Denholm, 28, female servant, born in the county. She is working at the Menzies household at Pitt Street 25, Edinburgh. In this household is also an Ann Denholm, 26, also a servant. Could this Ann be this entry here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTRG-23T
Monica
-
Catherine certainly is showing as Phillips in at least two of the childrens' christenings: Margaret in 1846 and Jane Burns in 1848 and a couple of births up to 1860 isn't she :-\
Monica
-
thanks , I didn`t find the baptisms of Margaret and Jane
1841 Loanhead, Lasswade.
This Catherine is not with her parents, she is the house of James Janet, a slater.
I have no clues if it is the right one.
Catherine Phillip 21 servant b Midlothian.
1851 Northside Loanhead Village
Charlotte Denholm head 67 Loanhead, Midlothian
Charlotte Denholm dau 23 paper mill Loanhead, Midlothian
Margaret Denholm 20 paper mill Loanhead, Midlothian
William Duncan son in law 30 gardener b Omintt ?, Aberdeen
Catherine Duncan dau 34 Dalkeith, Midlothian
Jane Baine (Burns?) Duncan gr daughter 5 Corstorphine, Midlothian
Margaret Duncan 3 Corstorphine, Midlothian
William Duncan 1 Mo Loanhead, Midlothian
1861 Lasswade
William Duncan 41 gardener Drumblade, Aberdeenshire
Catherin Duncan 40 Dalkeith, Edinburgh
Margaret Duncan 15 Employed At Paper Mill b Corstorphine, Edinburgh
* Jane ( Burns) Duncan 13 b Corstorphine, Edinburgh
William Duncan 11 b Lasswade
Arthur Duncan 8 b Lasswade
Elisbeth Duncan 3 b Lasswade
Catherine Duncan 1 b Lasswade
Jane Frances Knowles visitor 24 b Drumblade, Aberdeenshire
Eliza Lennox Knowles 2 Mo b Lasswade
I am pretty sure that these are the people in 1851 and 1861, but why is Catherine down as the dau of Charlotte Denholm. That is the mystery.
Jane Burns Duncan married Robert King 26 Dec 1873 at the Manse Lasswade.
Jane Burns Duncan 26 servant abode Loanhead , Lasswade. Father William Duncan gardener, mother Catherine maiden name Philips.
I`ve not found a death yet.
Robert King`s daughter gave 2 of her children the middle name Philip.
William Philip Holms b 1915 Lasswade
Catherine Philip Holms 1927 Lasswade
-
If her mother was a Ramsay then the answer is simple she remarried or she was never married and Catherine was born out of wedlock
DENHOLM JOHN/CHARLOTTE RAMSAY FR3718 (FR3718) 13/05/1814 Leith South
Don
-
If her mother was a Ramsay then the answer is simple she remarried or she was never married and Catherine was born out of wedlock
DENHOLM JOHN/CHARLOTTE RAMSAY FR3718 (FR3718) 13/05/1814 Leith South
Don
I`m presuming William is the husband .
1841 Lasswade.
William Denholm 50
Charlotte Denholm 56
William Denholm 25
Spence Denholm 21
Charlotte Denholm 14
Margaret Denholm 12
-
There are only 2 Charlotte's who married a Denholm
The Bann says John but he could have called himself William or vice-versa. In 1841 Catherine is on page 17 of the Census working for James Lamb the Slater, a few doors down on page 18 the Denholm's are there.
You need to find her death
-
This should narrow it down for you. William d 01 DEC 1884 in Loanhead, widower of Catherine Phillips son of John/Betsy Smith. He died of stomach cancer and his son William was the informant.
So you are looking from 1871-1884 for Catherine. If you still can't find her death then find the burials for Loanhead.
Don
-
This should narrow it down for you. William d 01 DEC 1884 in Loanhead, widower of Catherine Phillips son of John/Betsy Smith. He died of stomach cancer and his son William was the informant.
So you are looking from 1871-1884 for Catherine. If you still can't find her death then find the burials for Loanhead.
Don
This will be William Duncan ?
From Smith to Duncan , oh dear,
Thanks, how are you finding such precise details for the burial in 1884, which sites are you using.
-
I feel like I`m banging my head on a brick wall here.
This is all new to me trying to find Scottish records and to be honest I`m not doing very well.
I don't really know what sites to be searching and I only subscribe to Anc.
I think this is William in 1881.
1881 No 5 Drummond St, Newington, St Cuthberts. Edinburgh
William Duncan gardener jobbing 56 b Huntley , Aberdeenshire
I can only see William Duncan died 1884 on Scotlands People, but not the full details.
I can`t find his death on Ancestry
Where did you find those extra details ?
I can`t find a death for Catherine in Loanhead between 1871 and 1884.
I`m looking at Scotlands People.
I can`t find the birth of any Duncan child to father Duncan and a mother Smith.
If her mother was a Ramsay then the answer is simple she remarried or she was never married and Catherine was born out of wedlock
DENHOLM JOHN/CHARLOTTE RAMSAY FR3718 (FR3718) 13/05/1814 Leith South
The Denholm children have mothers maiden name as Hook, but I can find no marriage of a Denholm to a Hook
-
This will be William Duncan ?
From Smith to Duncan , oh dear,
Thanks, how are you finding such precise details for the burial in 1884, which sites are you using.
William Duncan's parents, from what Don has found (he looks to kindly possbly have used some units to access image on Scotlands People) were John Duncan and mother Betsy Smith - Smith being her maiden name.
Ancestry do not have any Scottish original BMD records (or census images for that matter). You may be lucky sometimes and find that someone has included original material on their a/try family tree. The only source for this certs remain Scotlands People.
Monica :)
-
The original image for 1881 would help you narrow down whether William Duncan was a widower by then. Similarly, a marriage cert of one of the children from the 1870s would also show whether mother Catherine was alive or deceased at the time the marriage.
Jane Burns Duncan married a Robert King in 1873?
Arthur Duncan married a Catherine Arthur in 1875?
Monica
-
From what Don found, William's parents showing as John and Betsy (Smith). There is this possible entry in 1851:
John Duncan 69 farm lab b. Drumblade
Bessie Duncan 74 b. Botherman, Banffshire
Address: Nether Boghead, Drumblade, Aberdeenshire
Bessie can be a variant of Elizabeth/Betsy etc www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=bessie
Possible marriage or banns for this couple https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTNL-H4S
Maybe this couple in 1841:
John Duncan 60 crofter
Bessie Duncan 60 b. Scotland
John Duncan 11
Address: Mosshead, Drumblade
Monica
-
There are two deaths with the same refs (188/ 16):
Bessie Smith
Bessie Duncan
Fab age of 98, she died in Drumblade in 1872.
Monica
-
The original image for 1881 would help you narrow down whether William Duncan was a widower by then. Similarly, a marriage cert of one of the children from the 1870s would also show whether mother Catherine was alive or deceased at the time the marriage.
Jane Burns Duncan married a Robert King in 1873?
Arthur Duncan married a Catherine Arthur in 1875?
Monica
attached are details of Jane Burns Duncans parents from the marriage.
-
Thanks you very much Monica, this is a great help.
Now to sort out the Phillips, Denholm confusion. I have spent hours on this and still solved nothing .
-
William Duncan's parents, from what Don has found (he looks to kindly possbly have used some units to access image on Scotlands People) were John Duncan and mother Betsy Smith - Smith being her maiden name.
Monica :)
Yes, I was wondering about Don`s finds, so thank you very much Don, that was very generous of you.
-
Catherine's death unfortunately won't help further :-\ Just found it. She died at the Royal Infirmary in Canongate area in 1878. See below. Looks like husband William who reported her death had a big blank on the day and completely forgot her maiden name and her parents' names. That blank below is where her parents' details should have shown....
-
Thank you for doing that ... . looks like we are stuck .
From the details you gave on John and Bessie Duncan, I have found Bessie in 1861 and 1871 with William Knowles and his wife.
On 11 August 1831 Elspet Duncan married William Knowles at Drumblade,Aberdeen
Elspeth was John and Bessie`s daughter and probably William Duncan`s sister.
Elspeth Knowles baptism in Sept 1838 has mother as Elspet Duncan. Lennox is another clue.
None of the other children's bapts were found, but that`s good enough for me.
1861
William Knowles 51 Belhelvie, Aberdeenshire
Elsie Knowles wife 51 b Drumblade Aberdeenshire
Eliza Lenox Knowles dau 16 b Drumblade, Aberdeenshire
and in 1861 Lasswade
William Duncan 41 Drumblade, Aberdeenshire
Catherin Duncan 40 Dalkeith, Edinburgh
Jane Frances Knowles visitor 24 b Drumblade, Aberdeenshire
Eliza Lennox Knowles 2 Mo b Lasswade
-
The Duncan family certainly falling into place isn't it. From the 1861 census entry you posted, looks like William Duncan's niece, Jane Frances Knowles came to Lasswade to have her illegitimate baby. There is this birth entry showing for her https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQWQ-MLX.
Re Catherine Phillips/Denholm issue, doesn't help that William Duncan and Catherine don't seem to be following any form of Scottish naming pattern that we can see for clues.
First born girls Margaret and Jane Burns ??? Father, as you mentioned, a Robert Phillips and showing on the OPR entry for the marriage. Has anyone looked at the original image of the marriage to see if there is anything added that might help? Nothing I can see in their list of children's names that help with clues back to maternal grandparents' names is there :-\
Monica
-
Did you mean this marriage ?
Jane Burns Duncan married Robert King 26 Dec 1873 at the Manse Lasswade.
Jane Burns Duncan 26 servant abode Loanhead , Lasswade. Father William Duncan gardener, mother Catherine maiden name Philips.
Witnesses Frances Clark, Robert Walker,
-
No, not Jane's which you mentioned earlier. I was thinking of William and Catherine's from 1844. Just had a look. This is what shows for her father Robert:
-
Thanks. So we now know Robert was a "wright" in Dalkeith and dead by 1844.
I have been scouring different sites but still found nothing conclusive. I suppose either of these could be Catherine`s father.
Midlothian (Edinburgh), Scotland, Extracted Parish Records Ancestry
Ancestry, but not on SP
Robert Philip Burial 17 May 1840 aged 41 bc 1799
South Leith, Midlothian, Scotland,
Robert Philip Burial 31 Jan 1841 aged 67 b c 1774
South Leith, Midlothian, Scotland,
Clutching at straws !
Marriage
Philip (Philp), Robert, wright, College Kirk p ., and Elisabeth, same p., d. of deceased James Blackadder, smith in Kirkcaldy 19 Jan 1796
Catherine born c 1822 .
My friend who I am doing this work for , her mother was baptised Jane Duncan Burns King, so far I`ve not come across any Burns, not on this Duncan line or the King line. There are no Denholm`s or Hook`s showing either.
-
I`ve given up on Catherine Philips, but found some nice bits about her husbands brother in law William Knowles.
1851 Lessendrum, Drumblade
William Knowles 51 gardener overseer employing 5 labourers b Belhelvie, Aberdeenshire.
So it seems William Knowles was the head gardener at Lessendrum house.
-
He certainly seemed to have been. A photo of Lessendrum House included here http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/%7Erowerowe/Lessendrum.htm
Monica
PS: We have been banging our heads haven't we on Catherine Philips!
-
Thanks , I`m trying to "pad" out the story / people with as much as I can find about them, so far apart from few illegitimate children they seem to have been quite an ordinary lot.
-
Going back to Catherine`s "mother" Charlotte Denholm / Hook, I got her death registration to see if that would help - it didn`t.
Charlotte Denholm, widow died aged 75 in 1859. The informant was John Denholm, her son.
Her parents were Charles Hook, gardener and Ann Hook, maiden name Smith.
We know Charlotte Hook / Denholm was born c 1784 Loanhead / Lasswade.
So what have we got now, another gardener and more Smiths .
WILLIAM DUNCAN husband of Catherine.
His parents are named as John Duncan and Elpseth Duncan maiden name Smith.
He was married to Elizabeth Duncan maiden name Smith, farmer’s daughter.
Elizabeth`s parents were William Smith and Margaret Fraser (death cert )
???